Eagles vs. Morgans/Peace dollars?
Weiss
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We've talked about classic gold vs. modern gold eagles and such recently. But the topic of classic silver dollars vs. silver eagles doesn't seem to come up much.
19th & early 20th century silver dollars carry a premium over other 90%--so much so that "x face" doesn't seem to even really be used in their context.
I'm not 100% sure why that is--any argument I can come up with is pretty easy to shoot down.
But there appears to be at least a little drop in premiums on older silver dollars right now.
You can buy average circulated classic dollars for around $15. Each dollar contains .77344 ounces of pure silver, so you're paying about $19.39 an ounce for silver through classic silver dollars.
On the other hand, eagles seem to be selling for $2.50 to $3 over spot--that's not a particularly cheap way to buy silver--you're paying about $21 an ounce.
That's a pretty substantial difference.
So which would you rather have?
Bonus observation, and please check my math: $1.35 in 90% (say 2 halves, 1 quarter, 1 dime) is just about an ounce of silver (.97656). At 12 x face, you're getting that ounce for $16.20. If you pay 12.5, an ounce will cost you $16.87. Unless you're paying over 13 times face, you're getting silver at or below melt when you buy 90%.
19th & early 20th century silver dollars carry a premium over other 90%--so much so that "x face" doesn't seem to even really be used in their context.
I'm not 100% sure why that is--any argument I can come up with is pretty easy to shoot down.
But there appears to be at least a little drop in premiums on older silver dollars right now.
You can buy average circulated classic dollars for around $15. Each dollar contains .77344 ounces of pure silver, so you're paying about $19.39 an ounce for silver through classic silver dollars.
On the other hand, eagles seem to be selling for $2.50 to $3 over spot--that's not a particularly cheap way to buy silver--you're paying about $21 an ounce.
That's a pretty substantial difference.
So which would you rather have?
Bonus observation, and please check my math: $1.35 in 90% (say 2 halves, 1 quarter, 1 dime) is just about an ounce of silver (.97656). At 12 x face, you're getting that ounce for $16.20. If you pay 12.5, an ounce will cost you $16.87. Unless you're paying over 13 times face, you're getting silver at or below melt when you buy 90%.
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
--Severian the Lame
--Severian the Lame
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Comments
Personally I view them differently.
I prefer silver dollars over ASE's. Saying that I view ASE's as modern bullion. Silver dollars as old coins.
90% is the fairest way to buy silver. Prices stay with or slightly under spot silver.
$2 premium on a ASE roughly 10% above spot. I suppose it falls back to supply & demand.
What ever is selling the most has the highest premiums.
However, I've never thought of quanitfying the relationship specifically between circulated silver dollars and ASEs.
I think the slightly higher premium per Oz for ASEs reflects mainly the aggregate market's preference for pure, shiny, newly minted, uniform, full weight silver,
over older, uglier, each one different, and less than full weight silver dollars, partially offet by them being old and cool and fun to clink around, flip heads or tails, etc.
(I really don't think you can use .77344 as a multiplier if you want an accurate weight of worn dollars)
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>I seldom view these either/or questions as very interesting, as I have the whole spectrum of ways to own silver in my own portfolio, each with its advantages and disadvantages.
However, I've never thought of quanitfying the relationship specifically between circulated silver dollars and ASEs.
I think the slightly higher premium per Oz for ASEs reflects mainly the aggregate market's preference for pure, shiny, newly minted, uniform, full weight silver,
over older, uglier, each one different, and less than full weight silver dollars, partially offet by them being old and cool and fun to clink around, flip heads or tails, etc.
(I really don't think you can use .77344 as a multiplier if you want an accurate weight of worn dollars) >>
But there is almost no numismatic value to silver eagles with very few exceptions.
And I understand what you mean by not using the full .77344 as a multiplier. That's partly why I indicated average circulated dollars rather than culls. But remember the digits to the right of the decimal are quite small. At worst you'd be talking about hundredths or thousandths of an ounce. I've got a holed morgan around here somewhere. I'll try to weigh and image it later today if I get a chance.
--Severian the Lame
I also mentioned the liquidity (price) may reflect the purity, ASE's are refined and ready to go, Morgans and Peace dollars are only 90% and may also be grimy, so would need to be smelted to use the silver industrially. Also, the .7723 oz of silver for an MS dollar exceeds the .7234 oz for a pair of halves, 4 quarters, or ten dimes.
oh, and local market conditions may vary.... hence the value of diversification
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
BUT I think you have the figures wrong. Use 13-13.3x as thats melt. Locally, I can't find 12.5x for 90%.......EXCEPT I am going to the flea market right now, I hope I get more 90% at 8x
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<< <i>Don't forget about common date modern commemorative silver dollars Weiss. Struck on the same planchet as the Morgan dollar. They cost is about the same , but with NO WEAR whatsoever. When compared to common G thru XF circulated, Morgan and Peace, I will choose the fresh modern commemorative over a worn out Morgan or Peace dollar. At least when it comes to a silver play anyway. >>
Now that is an interesting point, fivecents. I've got quite a few of the modern commems, and seem to add several a year:
And you're right: they are silver, and they are unc or proof. Some also have shockingly low mintages. This one, for example,
has a mintage of only 53,533 but only runs about $35--more than the premium we're discussing, but still incredibly cheap relative to just about any series I can think of.
But they also have drawbacks: very few collectors. Unfamiliarity even with casual to moderately interested coin collectors. And their low mintages can actually be a minus. You're unlikely to find 10 or 15 rolls of the Bobby Kennedy or Prisoner of War silver dollar. Or how about a monster box of them?! Best I know of is Apmex, and they're charging $18.30 each or $17.80 by the 100x for mixed coins. Even at the 100x rate, that equates to more than $23 an ounce. That's way more than eagles.
If you can find them cheap (or free, which is sometimes the case with the $5 gold sets), awesome. But I was looking for as close to an apples to apples comparison as a bullion play. To me at least, buying 20 or 50 or 100 or more at a time, modern commems are probably a little too obscure.
--Severian the Lame
I can find more buyers for a silver dollar than you can for some of these commemoratives.
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<< <i>liquidity is what you guys need to think about.
I can find more buyers for a silver dollar than you can for some of these commemoratives. >>
Exactly. They're still an interesting possibility, especially for people with limited funds and the time to search for them. But they're not what I would consider bullion.
--Severian the Lame
Groucho Marx
Fred, Las Vegas, NV
I wish the Mint would sell direct to the public, they could raise the premiums slightly to cover the costs of smaller orders and the public would still get the bullion cheaper than they can now. That or change the face value to $20 and distribute them through the Fed for circulation. Distribution problem solved. The current method ensures a windfall for a very few.