Were the 1933 $20s seized in the 1940s actually melted?

CaptHenway

Rich Mantia asks an interesting question in the E-Sylum:

"My questions to those who might know regards the images of the 1933 Saint Gaudens Double Eagle as Lot #70 on page 52 of the Stack family auction catalog from George Kolbe. It seems that repeatedly in any written context whenever this particular coin is mentioned the statement is made that all of the previously confiscated 1933 Saints that came into the possession of the United States Secret Service were "in fact" melted, except those in the National Numismatic Collection in the Smithsonian.

While I have personally seen that the Secret Service retains every counterfeit currency note that they recover as a reference library of sorts, I can't imagine that since they don't destroy these counterfeit notes that they would destroy the 1933 Double Eagles either. The few 1933's that have been confiscated clearly don't take up much space and they are meticulously recorded as to their sources, which would assist in an ongoing investigation since their first appearance after FDR's Executive Order halting their release. The destruction of the confiscated 1933's would seemingly harm the means for the Secret Service to authenticate future confiscated coins through die analysis.

I have never seen, nor heard of an official document that verifies the destruction of any 1933 Saint Gaudens Double Eagle. Are there any documents that provide dates and times of ANY 1933 Saint being melted and where would it have been done? If a melt occurred, how was the recovered gold recorded and what new form did it take? Has the speculation and presumption of melting after confiscation been taken as fact when there is no proof?

Provided that these coins do still exist the current legal ownership issue of the 10 confiscated specimens would have an effect on the return of the previously confiscated specimens as all would appear to have legality for their current and former owners. Can the subscribers and readers provide some insight for me?"

Considering the insane zeal with which the government has pursued these coins, making Les Miserables look like a romp in the park, I would be surprised if the government did not melt the earlier seizures. However, the question as asked is, can anybody prove it?
Your input, please.
TD

SilverEagles92

Of course not.

They're on that uncharted island with Elvis and the 1964 peace dollars

SaorAlba

<< <i>Of course not.

They're on that uncharted island with Elvis and the 1964 peace dollars >>



You forgot about Marilyn and Jack and Bobbie too.

coinguy1

If the secret service didn't melt the coins seized decades ago, and yet, all this time has claimed that it did, it would be hard to imagine such an admission just because the Langbord's are deemed legal to own. And I don't think a ruling that the Langbord coins are legal to own would necessarily set the stage for the change in ownership/return of other examples which had been seized previously.

ricko

I agree with Mark.....the one case has nothing to to with previous decisions. Cheers, RickO

keets

counterfiet and legally struck items aren't the same. it is reasonable to expect the Secret Service to retain examples of fake items to assist them in detection, while at the same time there is probably a law/stute or some form of legaleeze which requires that these Saints be melted.

19Lyds

I would expect that the Secret Service does not have the necessary equipment to "melt" confiscated gold and simply turned the coins over to the Treasury Department who more than likely returned the coins to the US Mint for disposition.

Surely there would be a paper trail but getting information out of the "SS" would be a difficult task. Perhaps the US Mint has those records?

RWB

All the confiscated 1933 double eagles appear to have been destroyed during the 1950s. I have copies of destruction certificates which refer to the origin of each coin and the date of its destruction. I also have copies of the confiscation records. Evidently, the Treasury people were convinced that no other examples existed outside the Smithsonian’s protection.

See also “Illegal Tender” by David Tripp, p.226.

I cringe when I hear about the Mint wanting to have a coinage museum - their track record as custodian of our coinage heritage is not good.

* * * *

Regarding the Secret Service not having equipment to melt the coins. Although the coins were melted in Philadelphia, the work could have easily been done in the Mint Bureau’s assay lab in Washington, DC. Timothy J. Quirk, the assayer, would have rolled them out, then melted them just as was done for normal assays. (This is where the last two 1964-D dollars met their end in 1970, too.)

CaptHenway

Do the Mint Reports from the 1940s and 50s have annual reports of uncurrent gold turned in and melted?
There must have been a steady trickle of gold turned in through banks, that found its way to the Mint.
Logically the 1933 $20's could have just been thrown in with the melts of it.
TD

RWB

Yes. I recall some years having denomination breakdowns (30s ?), but most being just aggregates. Just commenting from memory…so I could be way off.

19Lyds

<< <i>All the confiscated 1933 double eagles appear to have been destroyed during the 1950s. I have copies of destruction certificates which refer to the origin of each coin and the date of its destruction. I also have copies of the confiscation records. Evidently, the Treasury people were convinced that no other examples existed outside the Smithsonian’s protection.

See also “Illegal Tender” by David Tripp, p.226.

I cringe when I hear about the Mint wanting to have a coinage museum - their track record as custodian of our coinage heritage is not good.

* * * *

Regarding the Secret Service not having equipment to melt the coins. Although the coins were melted in Philadelphia, the work could have easily been done in the Mint Bureau’s assay lab in Washington, DC. Timothy J. Quirk, the assayer, would have rolled them out, then melted them just as was done for normal assays. (This is where the last two 1964-D dollars met their end in 1970, too.) >>



This may be true Roger but isn't the Assay Office a division of the US Treasury? If so, then a transfer of the asset would surly have been recorded since the SS and the Treasury are two different departments right? Keep in mind we're talking Secret Service vs Treasury Police.

RWB

No. Secret Service Agents were part of Treasury....just like the Coast Guard