Nothing really to develop, just pointing out there are examples of what appeared to be decent amount of coinage in circulation, not official U.S., but accepted money/coinage in commerce.
In the Franklin bio he speaks of having Dutch dollars in his pocket at another time.
My original response was regarding your entry of 12/26/09 about coinage in commerce.
NumbersUsa, FairUs, Alipac, CapsWeb, and TeamAmericaPac
1792 -- President George Washington appointed David Rittenhouse as the first Director of the Mint in April, 1792. 1792 -- Construction of the first U.S. Mint building began in Philadelphia in the summer of 1792. The first coinage presses (ordered from England) arrived at the Mint in 1792. The first coins (silver half dimes) were produced in the months that followed, but not from the Mint building, still under construction - apparently being made at the coin press storage place. The silver for these first coins was furnished by President Washington. 1792 -- In mid-December the first coiner of the Mint, Henry Voigt, recorded in his account book, "struck off a few pieces of copper coins." 1792 -- The following day (December 18, 1792) Thomas Jefferson sent a letter to President Washington describing their progress in coining, enclosing some varieties of sample coins for him and the Committee of Congress to examine in detail. Thus, the range of U.S. Mint issues began, and continue with successive changes to this day.
It sounds as though President Washington was significantly involved in the early stages of our first official coinage. Does anyone own one of the "sample varities" noted above, lets check it for finger prints.
NumbersUsa, FairUs, Alipac, CapsWeb, and TeamAmericaPac
Do you think that when they asked George Washington for ID that he just whipped out a quarter? Steven Wright
MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Do you think that when they asked George Washington for ID that he just whipped out a quarter? Steven Wright
MJ >>
Naw, he'd just use a dollar bill. It has been proven over and over that people prefer using paper notes over coins.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
We know that Washington was not averse to using cash (as opposed to maintaing accounts) in the period from 1772-1776, because the Library of Congress has his personal cash memorandum books from that period, as well as from 1783-1784. In 1787, Washington also listed his daily expenses while at the constitutional convention in Philadelphia.
There is also a Mount Vernon accounts book for the period 1794-1796, after the creation of U.S. coinage. The book was maintained by Washington's farm manager, William Pearce. It is likely that some of the transactions recorded in the book involved George Washington handing money to someone else.
Here is a link to the documents described above -- the scans are online courtesy of the Library of Congress:
In Washington's diaries from the post-U.S. coinage period, there are numerous entries which mention dining and lodging at various inns and taverns. Example from March 10, 1797: "Dined and lodged at Elkton. Tolerably pleasant all day." cf. Washington's letter to Elizabeth Willing Powell of March 17, 1797: "At Elkton . . . Hollingsworth's is a quiet, orderly Tavern, with good beds, and well in other respects".
If one wanted to comb through each diary entry, there is probably mention of Washington actually taking coins from his pocket and giving them to another person.
Hope this helps. Interesting question. Although it's *highly unlikely* that Washington managed to go from 1794 to his death in 1799 without touching any U.S. coins , it's useful in making us consider how routine business transactions were handled during that time period. How often were accounts maintained? Who paid on a cash basis? Were they a cashless society, too?
Edited for clarity!
Lovely dimes, the liveliest coin, the one that really jingles. --Truman Capote
RYK- There is a letter (can't remember the source offhand) where a visitor to Mount Vernon describes Martha showing off the medals. Re Washington, there is a letter where he *declines* an invitation to the Mint. However, the context is casual - suggesting that he had been at the Mint before, and declining this particular invitation was no big deal. There was oral tradition in the Kates family (who owned the first mint property from 1835 to 1907) that Washington attended the cornerstone ceremony of the first Mint in 1792 - however, as Stewart points out, Washington was not in Philadelphia on the supposed day of placing the cornerstone. Stewart indicates that Washington frequently visited the Mint, and this is likely - he lived a couple blocks away - but there is no document that actually proves this. However, it make no sense that he would make repeated references to the Mint in the annual Congressional address (today "State of the Union") and not visit it, being as close as he was. There is good circumstantial evidence that Washington furnished the silver for 1792 half dismes, but no smoking gun. (Best article is in AJN second series #15.) There is mythology that Washington also furnished copper for 1793 cents, and silver for 1792 dismes - I have much less confidence in these propositions. Denga can no doubt provide additional info.
I see no problems with what coinosaurus has said. My opinion is that he visited the Mint on a semi-regular basis. The Federal establishment was very small at that time and one would think that the President would have preferred seeing the progress in person rather than second-hand reports. Some decisions, however, required that a written record be kept and in such cases Jefferson and Rittenhouse dealt with the President in that form.
The President had nothing to do directly with obtaining the copper but did expedite the necessary funds for obtaining the metal, perhaps the source of the belief.
As very little silver was used for the pattern dismes it may well be true that Washington furnished the silver.
<< <i>We know that Washington was not averse to using cash (as opposed to maintaing accounts) in the period from 1772-1776, because the Library of Congress has his personal cash memorandum books from that period, as well as from 1783-1784. In 1787, Washington also listed his daily expenses while at the constitutional convention in Philadelphia.
There is also a Mount Vernon accounts book for the period 1794-1796, after the creation of U.S. coinage. The book was maintained by Washington's farm manager, William Pearce. It is likely that some of the transactions recorded in the book involved George Washington handing money to someone else.
Here is a link to the documents described above -- the scans are online courtesy of the Library of Congress:
In Washington's diaries from the post-U.S. coinage period, there are numerous entries which mention dining and lodging at various inns and taverns. Example from March 10, 1797: "Dined and lodged at Elkton. Tolerably pleasant all day." cf. Washington's letter to Elizabeth Willing Powell of March 17, 1797: "At Elkton . . . Hollingsworth's is a quiet, orderly Tavern, with good beds, and well in other respects".
If one wanted to comb through each diary entry, there is probably mention of Washington actually taking coins from his pocket and giving them to another person.
Hope this helps. Interesting question. Although it's *highly unlikely* that Washington managed to go from 1794 to his death in 1799 without touching any U.S. coins , it's useful in making us consider how routine business transactions were handled during that time period. How often were accounts maintained? Who paid on a cash basis? Were they a cashless society, too?
Edited for clarity! >>
There must have been hired help at Mount Vernon. Logically they were paid in money. TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
What is to be made of the conversion between Dr. Jonas McClintock, a U.S. mint official and Adam Eckfeld that occurred on April 9, 1844? Eckfeld, who was last mint employee living who was around when the 1792 half dismes were struck, stated that President Washington deposited $100 in bullion or specie for the purpose of producing these coins. What evidence do the nay sayers have to dispute this evidence that Washington supplied silver of the 1792 half dismes?
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
So let me get this straight: so far we have connected ole George to quite a few characters: 1. George and jack the ripper used coins in their daily activities. 2. George would have liked Hugh Hefner, george would share coins and hugh would share the bunnies. 3. George was a drunk but would not drink with john adams, maybe Sam Adams ? 4. george was a thief and stole Martha's silver. 5. Then some actual facts, that there are polaroid pictures of: George cutting down the cherry tree and his wooden false teeth at some museum, and we know he must of lied at some time or another because he was a politician and a man. 6. He threw something into a river or across a river, causing the EPA to be invented.
Denga writes that the federal establishment was small back then.
Would not it be great if it was so today?
I wonder what GW would think if he came back to the USA today and observed the size and scope and breadth of the USA and the federal government of he headed 200+ years ago? Flabbergasted probably.
Further, politicians of today at times speak of our founding fathers with reverence. However it would be very interesting to see today's politicians come face to face with our founding fathers and engage in spirited discussion about all things political. I wonder of our founding fathers would castigate or glorify our political leaders of today, both Democratic and Republican.
BillJones and others believing Breen, Taxay, and other earlier writings that they copied from -
Oh, that I wish you have read the article in the 2003 COAC book by Joel Orosz. He explains the twisted misinformation about these interesting pieces. It was not Jonas McClintock, and there was no special room set aside for Adam Eckfeldt (who was retired for five years) to bring his friends in and chat.
According to the third draft of the unvalidated letter dated in 1844, that was actually written in a series of articles in an 1853 newspaper, after Eckfeldt had died, the three drafts were written by local "historian" John McAllister, Jr. He was a optrician in Philadelphia. Those who believe and copy unconfirmed accounts need to quit believing and stop repeating the unvalidated "reports" and get updated on the latest research that has shown the old writings to be false. It would save a lot of consternation.
There is no record in any of Washington's documents (either as President or a private citizen at Mt. Vernon) that states he gave $100 worth of silver to the United States Mint., or anything at all for that matter for making U.S. coinage. He was not in Philadelphia when these were struck and there is absolutely no record of him ever owning one or giving them out to his friends or foreign diplomats, having them delivered by Jefferson, etc.
Adam Eckfeldt was not involved in any way with the United States Mint during July 1792 when these pieces were struck on Harper's screw press. In his position as Secretary of State, which oversaw the U.S. Mint, Jefferson recorded that he receivied 1,500 pieces on July 13, 1792, which were in all probability taken to the official repository of the U.S. Government, the Bank of the United States, and deposited for circulation before he left Phildelphia at the end of July.
Before anyone else wants to quote background information on what was happening with the United States Mint in 1792, please read the AJN #15, COAC book, or my book Henry Voigt and Others..." .
PM me if you are looking for U.S. auction catalogs
Firstmint, the tone of your posts is so unnecessarily arrogant it becomes hard to take a liking to anything you write. All you do is harp about how all of those who came before you were wrong and how you are right without providing anything but references to obscure sources warped in acronyms. Why do you find it necessary put down everyone who restates information that they have read in other sources? What is the point of being so unpleasant?
My readings about Washington have indicated that when he was running his plantation, Mt. Vernon, before and after his presidency that he was very much a hands on manager. He took to the fields every day on horseback to make sure that his managers and his slaves were putting in a good day’s work. He was known to be “tough but fair.” The only thing that kept him at home was illness and really bad weather. To say that he did not take an active interest in controlling the hard currency that his operations earned is defies logic.
It seems absurd to me he would have not have handled money of various types during his lifetime including U.S. coinage. Yes, the first mint was woefully unable to provide enough coinage to serve the nation’s needs. Most of the circulating coinage was foreign. But Washington was living in Philadelphia where the first mint was in operation. If there was any place where those coins did circulate and were available, it would have been Philadelphia. It is absurd to believe that Washington never saw and handled any of them.
The 1792 half dismes were one of his projects as indicated by his message to Congress after they were stuck. Given the bonding requirements which prevented mint employees from handing precious metals, Washington and Jefferson would have had to have taken personal responsibility for that minting activity. After all the problems that the early U.S. had had with underweight coins and other types of bogus currency, it’s hard to believe that Washington stayed above it all and didn’t even inspect some of the half dismes after they were struck. He would have been in dereliction of his duty if he had not.
Establishing a national monetary system was one of the most important functions of the early U.S. government. Yes, it did not perform that function well, in part because there were insufficient quantities of gold and silver available in the young republic. But to argue that high government officials did not take an active interest in the establishment of the first mint and its operations defies logic.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
There is no record in any of Washington's documents (either as President or a private citizen at Mt. Vernon) that states he gave $100 worth of silver to the United States Mint., or anything at all for that matter for making U.S. coinage. He was not in Philadelphia when these were struck and there is absolutely no record of him ever owning one or giving them out to his friends or foreign diplomats, having them delivered by Jefferson, etc.
Adam Eckfeldt was not involved in any way with the United States Mint during July 1792 when these pieces were struck on Harper's screw press. In his position as Secretary of State, which oversaw the U.S. Mint, Jefferson recorded that he receivied 1,500 pieces on July 13, 1792, which were in all probability taken to the official repository of the U.S. Government, the Bank of the United States, and deposited for circulation before he left Phildelphia at the end of July.
Before anyone else wants to quote background information on what was happening with the United States Mint in 1792, please read the AJN #15, COAC book, or my book Henry Voigt and Others..." .
Some points in reference to the above:
1) The half dismes were delivered after Washington left Philadelphia but this does not mean that he did not attend a ceremonial striking on the 11th and then leave for Mt. Vernon. It may even be that the bulk of the coins were struck on the 11th and then poorly-struck pieces removed before delivery to Jefferson on the 13th. If the screw press in question had a feeding mechanism it would have taken less than an hour to strike 1,500 coins.
2) There was no “official repository” for coins struck at the Mint and all coins struck through 1837 were made for private depositors. The Secretary of State received these coins in July 1792 because he was the Cabinet officer responsible for the Mint and, as bonds had yet to be met, represented the government in accepting the bullion and then paying out the coins. This does, of course, not prove that Washington received the coins but if not the President, then who?
3) Adam Eckfeldt was not, as pointed out by firstmint, a Mint employee in July 1792 but he certainly would have discussed Mint affairs when he came on board permanently in 1795. It is entirely possible that he was privately paid by Rittenhouse to harden the half disme dies; it is known that the director did pay for certain Mint expenses out of his own very ample funds. (When Rittenhouse died in 1796 his estate was worth about $40,000, a very large sum for that time. Interestingly enough, however, Rittenhouse’s brother was in debtor’s prison and got nothing from the estate although other family members came out well.)
This has turned out to be a very interesting thread.
I still have not heard conclusive evidence that GW actually used coins to make purchases, but I have read some very well-thought and well-researched responses on both sides. I have no doubt that he used money in his lifetime, but I am not satisfied that there is enough evidence that he regularly used US coins from 1793 until his death from a sore throat and subsequent bloodletting in 1799.
One thing that is very clear is that finding evidence that anyone used Federal coins in the early US (say, pre-1857) is challenging. This is not to say that they did not--just that we know that:
1) Federal coinage was in short supply 2) Federal coinage was melted regularly, depending on relative values of silver and gold and how the standards were set 3) There is little print documentation of the usage of coins 4) Foreign coinage was encouraged to circulate 5) Federal coinage, especially gold, was sent overseas to pay debts
GW was a business man and a soldier who gave orders and the President, to think that such an individual did not handle money produced by his own country that he had a hand in founding, fighting for and conducting business in besides just plain living is is absurd.
Again, no disrespect intended to Realone, but just because we think something must have been so does not make it so.
GW was a business man and a soldier who gave orders and the President, to think that such an individual did not handle money produced by his own country that he had a hand in founding, fighting for and conducting business in besides just plain living is is absurd. Him not handling U.S. money is akin to saying he had servants who wiped his buttox after using the outhouse, some mundane things were done by these great human being no matter large they were and who they knew.
I agree. I think it is safe to say that virtually every adult who lived outside the sparsely-settled frontier areas in the 1790s used coins to a greater or lesser extent. I do not think the President was an exception to this rule.
In a former life, I looked through a box of promissory notes made by Washington that were related to all of his land dealings. There are literally dozens of boxes of these documents out there, so it's not like they're rare. I bet there are images of some of these notes on the web somewhere. The man bought, sold, and surveyed a hell of a lot of land (which may have something to do with the economic motivations behind the Revolution, and support for his Presidency among the real property development community, but I digress). Even in the 1780s and 1790s, as I recall, the denominations of all these notes were English pounds/shillings/pence, payable in "specie of the crown" (English coins) or something like that. I forgot the exact words, but I remember clearly that none of the notes I saw were made out in denominations of dollars/cents. So, the upshot is that based on my very limited experience, President Washington apparently didn't use US coins - or even US denominations - for most, if not all, of his land deals. That said, it's hard to imagine that he didn't handle some of the early coins for margaritas and lap dances.
I agree that he used foreigh coinage, but remember we are speaking a very short time frame from 1792 to 1799, and even shorter considering he had to be ill or weak at the time of his death, I would think if he used foreigh coins then when U.S. coins came available he would have definitely used them, heck he had the best access to them and I have to believe would have been honored to use them. We are talking coins used for every day living how could he not use U.S. coins, he was the ex Prez of the land.
No disagreement here.
Perhaps there's a rare promissory note or receipt out there that will prove that GW transacted business in US coin. You'd think that pistareen guy would have piped up by now about this topic. He probably has a few letters from GW directly on point.
One of the most difficult things about presenting new information is acceptance.
With that being said, my response was not made in arrogance, but rather from tiring of people believing untrue "facts" made by others who created their own history. I'm far from being alone in this, and as most of you know, the history we all learned in school is flawed to a noticeable extent. The same holds true with the 1792 Half Disme stories. There was no ceremonial striking or special assemblage for the 1792 coinage that can be validated.
In my posts (and book) I offer many contemporary citations regarding the subject. As for "obscure sources", I copy verbatim letters from Washington, Jefferson, and Rittenhouse during July of 1792 when some of these pieces were being created (the Getz 1792 pieces were made early in the year, while the silver-center cents were made in December). These are the very letters that were not copied by earlier researchers, and are hardly obscure since they are in the Library of Congress.
Washington was well aware of what the Mint was doing. He had wanted a National Mint since 1790. What I'm not sure of is that he actually ever visited the Mint. That was not his job, and believe it or not, COINAGE WAS NOT A PRIORITY for the President. And for those who believe the State of the Union address in October of 1792 yes, he did write what has been written over and over about a small beginning of half dismes in circulation. However, Washington always made mention of the Indian situations, the Military, the coinage, American expansion, etc. in all of his addresses after that date. Yes, I have copies of those as well.
We need to examine reality in the contemporary timeframe and mindset, rather than applying erroneous beliefs of today.
Washington lived a block away from Congress Hall and two blocks away from the Mint. There was no "White House" and formality was an uppermost consideration in dealing with the President (just like today). He sent runners to deliver his letters and messages rather than running all over Philadelphia himself. This is brought out in the July 9th and 10th letters I quoted in my book (which people can obtain from me should they want to) when Rittenhouse asked for an appropriation of $10,000 from Washington on the 10th, in which Washington wrote back, the same day, and approved the request.
As for the "official repository" that I mentioned, it was for the struck copper pieces that were to enter circulation, and as Denga pointed out, silver and gold depositors received payment in struck coin for the total of their assayed deposits after 1794.
Therefore, I wish to apologize if my research makes others think me "unpleasant". Being unpleasant is not the intent, but rather to put forth the proper information.
Edited to add - COAC stands for Coinage of Americas Conference published as the American Journal of Numismatics (AJN) by the ANS (American Numismatic Society) in NY (New York).
PM me if you are looking for U.S. auction catalogs
<< <i>In a former life, I looked through a box of promissory notes made by Washington that were related to all of his land dealings. There are literally dozens of boxes of these documents out there, so it's not like they're rare. I bet there are images of some of these notes on the web somewhere. The man bought, sold, and surveyed a hell of a lot of land (which may have something to do with the economic motivations behind the Revolution, and support for his Presidency among the real property development community, but I digress). Even in the 1780s and 1790s, as I recall, the denominations of all these notes were English pounds/shillings/pence, payable in "specie of the crown" (English coins) or something like that. I forgot the exact words, but I remember clearly that none of the notes I saw were made out in denominations of dollars/cents. So, the upshot is that based on my very limited experience, President Washington apparently didn't use US coins - or even US denominations - for most, if not all, of his land deals. That said, it's hard to imagine that he didn't handle some of the early coins for margaritas and lap dances. >>
I agree that he used foreigh coinage, but remember we are speaking a very short time frame from 1792 to 1799, and even shorter considering he had to be ill or weak at the time of his death, I would think if he used foreigh coins then when U.S. coins came available he would have definitely used them, heck he had the best access to them and I have to believe would have been honored to use them. We are talking coins used for every day living how could he not use U.S. coins, he was the ex Prez of the land. >>
It is my understanding that Washington was quite robust up until the illness that resulted in him being inadvertently killed by his doctors. TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>Edited to add - COAC stands for Coinage of Americas Conference published as the American Journal of Numismatics (AJN) by the ANS (American Numismatic Society) in NY (New York). >>
Okay, now I know where this information was published. I have a lot of those books from those conferences from the late 1980s and 1990s, but I have not been able to obtain any of the later editions. The book sellers I know (e.g. Charles Davis) tell me that they are unavailable. That’s too bad, but I suppose the ANS must have had trouble selling them which means that they have not gotten wide distribution.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
<< <i>About a year ago, I read "His Excellency: George Washington" by Joseph J. Ellis, and did not get any sense that GW has handling money in financial transactions.
I like DaveG's answer best (so far).
Realone, respectfully, what you "would have thought" does not get us any closer to the answer of the question. >>
Did this great thread ever get any closer to answering the question to RYK's satisfaction?
I thought I remembered something else about this & my research partner has come to the rescue.
Two things - in the American State Papers, De Saussure (the second mint director) shows obvious pride in the first gold coinage:
Document No. 84 is de Saussure's report to the Senate dated December 14, 1795, which states "The enclosed documents, marked B and C, will shew the quantity of precious metals which have been worked up and coined; partly under the direction of Mr. Rittenhouse, partly under mine. The gold, wholly under mine." (p. 356). Document C indicates that from July 31, 1795 to October 24, 1795, 1,884 eagles and 8,707 half eagles were struck.
Later, De Saussure's biographer amplifies. This, from 1841, by the Hon. William Harper ("Memoir of the Life, Character, and Public Services of the Late Hon. Henry Wm. De Saussure"):
"General Washington, whose habit was to see the heads of departments every week at his table, upon one of these occasions, expressed to the director of the mint [de Saussure] his satisfaction at the activity which had been introduced into the silver coinage, and added, 'I have long desired to see gold coined at the mint, but your predecessor found insuperable difficulties. I should be much gratified if it could be accomplished before I leave office.' 'I will try,' was the reply; and the director went to the mint, summoned the officers, ascertained the wants and difficulties of each department, and by great diligence, speedily removed all obstacles. In six weeks he carried to the President a handful of gold eagles, and received his thanks and approbation."
So, we have an account from 1841 which places gold eagles in the hand of the President in 1795.
I am sure some of our resident forum skeptics will demand a videotape of the event. Personally, I'd like to see something more contemporary than 1841, but based on the weight of the evidence, I would lean towards the conclusion that GW personally handled US coinage.
<< <i>I thought I remembered something else about this & my research partner has come to the rescue.
Two things - in the American State Papers, De Saussure (the second mint director) shows obvious pride in the first gold coinage:
Document No. 84 is de Saussure's report to the Senate dated December 14, 1795, which states "The enclosed documents, marked B and C, will shew the quantity of precious metals which have been worked up and coined; partly under the direction of Mr. Rittenhouse, partly under mine. The gold, wholly under mine." (p. 356). Document C indicates that from July 31, 1795 to October 24, 1795, 1,884 eagles and 8,707 half eagles were struck.
Later, De Saussure's biographer amplifies. This, from 1841, by the Hon. William Harper ("Memoir of the Life, Character, and Public Services of the Late Hon. Henry Wm. De Saussure"):
"General Washington, whose habit was to see the heads of departments every week at his table, upon one of these occasions, expressed to the director of the mint [de Saussure] his satisfaction at the activity which had been introduced into the silver coinage, and added, 'I have long desired to see gold coined at the mint, but your predecessor found insuperable difficulties. I should be much gratified if it could be accomplished before I leave office.' 'I will try,' was the reply; and the director went to the mint, summoned the officers, ascertained the wants and difficulties of each department, and by great diligence, speedily removed all obstacles. In six weeks he carried to the President a handful of gold eagles, and received his thanks and approbation."
So, we have an account from 1841 which places gold eagles in the hand of the President in 1795.
I am sure some of our resident forum skeptics will demand a videotape of the event. Personally, I'd like to see something more contemporary than 1841, but based on the weight of the evidence, I would lean towards the conclusion that GW personally handled US coinage. >>
That's good stuff. Now, to fully answer the question, we might need videotape evidence of him using one of the 1795 eagles to buy a burrito at Qdoba.
<< <i>Didn't he have to handle us coins when he used the pay phone at the corner near the whitehouse to call Martha so she wouldn't worry when he and John Adams were having margaritas at the local pub? >>
.....
"government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
.....obviously, what we need is..........................a smoking coin!
"government is not reason, it is not eloquence-it is a force! like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master; never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action." George Washington
<< <i>...the State of the Union address in October of 1792 yes, he did write what has been written over and over about a small beginning of half dismes in circulation. However, Washington always made mention of the Indian situations, the Military, the coinage, American expansion, etc. in all of his addresses after that date. Yes, I have copies of those as well. ... >>
firstmint, was anything said in Washington's other addresses regarding coinage that would be interesting to post here? (Even if it may not relate to the original poster's question.)
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
<< <i>It is my understanding that Washington was quite robust up until the illness that resulted in him being inadvertently killed by his doctors. TD >>
According to the record, this is true. Something about his last day spent surveying his land in the cold and rain. When he came home, he developed a cold or a fever. Doctors were brought in who prescribed bloodletting. The loss of blood led to a weakening of his immune system, which eventually led to his death. Conventional wisdom is that had nothing been done, he would have been fine.
I find it incomprehensible that GW (indeed, ANY of the Founding Fathers) would not at least have inspected examples of our early coinage.
This thread has been a great read, really enjoying folks' opinions, logic, and citations of original sources, an example of all that is good about this forum, as well as why RYK (and others) are known as "excessively prominent" members.
Here are some excerpts (besides 1792) from George Washington's communications as President (ref. Compilation of the Messages and Papers of the Presidents, Government Printing Office, 1897)
1793 - Annual Address, December 3: On the 1st day of June last an installment of 1,000,000 Florins became payable on the loans of the United States in Holland. This was adjusted by a prolongation of the period of reimbursement in nature of a new loan at an interest of 5 per cent for the term of ten years....".
December 30, 1793 to Congress: I lay before your consideration, a letter from the Secretary of State, informing me of certain impediments which have arisen to the coinage of the precious metals at the Mint, as also a letter from the same officer relative to certain advances on money which have been made on public account..."
1794 - Annual Address, November 19: "The Mint of the United States has entered upon the coinage of the precious metals, and considerable sums of defective coins and bullion have been lodged with the Director by individuals. There is a pleasing prospect that the institution will at no remote day realize the expectation which was originally formed of its utility".
1795 - Annual Address, December 8: "The statements which will be laid before you relative to the Mint will shew the situation of that institution and the necessity of some further legislative provisions for carrying the business of it more completely into effect, and for checking abuses which appear to be arising in particular quarters..."
1796 - Washington's Farewell Address of September 17, 1796: Nothing specific mentioned about the Mint or coinage. Nothing mentioned about the Mint or coinage in the December 7, 1796, Annual Address either.
1797 - Proclamation, July 22: "Now, therefore, I, the said John Adams, President of the United States, hereby proclaim, announce, and give notice to all whom it may concern that, agreeably to the act last above mentioned (February 1793) the coinage of silver at the Mint of the United States commenced on the 15th day of October, 1794, and the coinage of gold on the 31st day of July, 1795; and that consequently, in conformity to the act first above mentioned, all foreign silver coins, except Spanish milled dollars and parts of such dollars, will cease to pass current as money within theUnited States and to be a legal tender for the payment of any debts or demands after the 15th day of October next, and all foreign gold coins will cease to be a legal tender as aforesaid for the payment of any debts or demands after the 31st day of July, which will be A.D. 1798".
PM me if you are looking for U.S. auction catalogs
<< <i>...all foreign silver coins, except Spanish milled dollars and parts of such dollars, will cease to pass current as money within theUnited States and to be a legal tender for the payment of any debts or demands after the 15th day of October next, and all foreign gold coins will cease to be a legal tender as aforesaid for the payment of any debts or demands after the 31st day of July, which will be A.D. 1798". >>
Apparently that did not happen according to Adams' plan since foreign coins remained legal tender in the US until 1857.
<< <i>...all foreign silver coins, except Spanish milled dollars and parts of such dollars, will cease to pass current as money within theUnited States and to be a legal tender for the payment of any debts or demands after the 15th day of October next, and all foreign gold coins will cease to be a legal tender as aforesaid for the payment of any debts or demands after the 31st day of July, which will be A.D. 1798". >>
Apparently that did not happen according to Adams' plan since foreign coins remained legal tender in the US until 1857.
<< <i>...all foreign silver coins, except Spanish milled dollars and parts of such dollars, will cease to pass current as money within the United States and to be a legal tender for the payment of any debts or demands after the 15th day of October next, and all foreign gold coins will cease to be a legal tender as aforesaid for the payment of any debts or demands after the 31st day of July, which will be A.D. 1798". >>
Apparently that did not happen according to Adams' plan since foreign coins remained legal tender in the US until 1857.
Is that right? Or am I missing something? >>
You are quite correct, if you are referring to what happened in ordinary, everyday lives. Lance.
Because to Err is Human. I specialize in Errors, Minting, Counterfeit Detection & Grading. Computer-aided grading, counterfeit detection, recognition and imaging.
It needs to be noted that Presidential Proclamations during the 18th century were not the laws on the books of the United States.
A further example comes from John Adams on March 23, 1798, where he proclaims Thanksgiving on May 9th, "I have therefore thought it fit to recommend, and I hereby recommend, that Wednesday, the 9th of May next, be observed throuout the United States as a day of solemn humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that the citizens of these States, abstaining on that day from their customary occupations, offer their devout addresses to the Father of Mercies agreeably to those forms or methods which they have severally adopted as the most suitable and becoming: that all religious congregations do, with the deepest humility, acknowledge before God the manifold sins and transgressions with which we are chargeable as individuals and as a nation...".
Yes, foregin coinage was legal tender until 1857. The Proclamation in the earlier post was presented to offer some contemporary background on what was really happening back then.
PM me if you are looking for U.S. auction catalogs
To add to this discussion, and I am surprised no one has mentioned it yet, is the 1794 dollar with the GW counterstamp. The coin is discussed in the Jack Collins book on 1794 dollars. To sum up, it first appeared at auction in 1883, later in Stack's (5/1955:1162, there plated). I am sorry to say that the counterstamp has since been removed from the coin.
There is no documentation surrounding this coin to support the idea that it was Washington's personal example, so this is just a "curiousity" if you will - intriguing idea nonetheless.
I am told, by an excessively prominent numismatist, the sort of numismatist that goes by their initials, that, in the Arts section of today's New York Times, there is a copy of a letter from Washington to General Wayne discussing Wayne's Comitia medal.
<< <i>I am told, by an excessively prominent numismatist, the sort of numismatist that goes by their initials, that, in the Arts section of today's New York Times, there is a copy of a letter from Washington to General Wayne discussing Wayne's Comitia medal.
It is the letter of transmittal and indicates that Washington personally handled the medal. >>
Thanks. I need to check this out when I get home from work.
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
If the aforementioned letter is dated March 25, 1790, then it was described and illustrated in the Comitia Americana book by Adams and Bentley on pgs. 72-74. Hopefully the article doesn't add anything about Washington that is untrue.
The Anthony Wayne medal (voted by Congress) was originally ordered struck in 1780 by Benjamin Franklin, with the one that Jefferson brought back from France and gave to Washington to transmit to Wayne was struck in 1789.
PM me if you are looking for U.S. auction catalogs
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Comments
Nothing really to develop, just pointing out there are examples of what appeared to be decent amount of coinage in circulation, not official U.S., but accepted money/coinage in commerce.
In the Franklin bio he speaks of having Dutch dollars in his pocket at another time.
My original response was regarding your entry of 12/26/09 about coinage in commerce.
1792 -- Construction of the first U.S. Mint building began in Philadelphia in the summer of 1792. The first coinage presses (ordered from England) arrived at the Mint in 1792. The first coins (silver half dimes) were produced in the months that followed, but not from the Mint building, still under construction - apparently being made at the coin press storage place. The silver for these first coins was furnished by President Washington.
1792 -- In mid-December the first coiner of the Mint, Henry Voigt, recorded in his account book, "struck off a few pieces of copper coins."
1792 -- The following day (December 18, 1792) Thomas Jefferson sent a letter to President Washington describing their progress in coining, enclosing some varieties of sample coins for him and the Committee of Congress to examine in detail. Thus, the range of U.S. Mint issues began, and continue with successive changes to this day.
It sounds as though President Washington was significantly involved in the early stages of our first official coinage. Does anyone own one of the "sample varities" noted above, lets check it for finger prints.
Please cite the source that you copied as there are errors that you apparently are not aware of in what you wrote.
Steven Wright
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>Do you think that when they asked George Washington for ID that he just whipped out a quarter?
Steven Wright
Naw, he'd just use a dollar bill. It has been proven over and over that people prefer using paper notes over coins.
There is also a Mount Vernon accounts book for the period 1794-1796, after the creation of U.S. coinage. The book was maintained by Washington's farm manager, William Pearce. It is likely that some of the transactions recorded in the book involved George Washington handing money to someone else.
Here is a link to the documents described above -- the scans are online courtesy of the Library of Congress:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gwhtml/gwseries5.html#GWC
In Washington's diaries from the post-U.S. coinage period, there are numerous entries which mention dining and lodging at various inns and taverns. Example from March 10, 1797: "Dined and lodged at Elkton. Tolerably pleasant all day." cf. Washington's letter to Elizabeth Willing Powell of March 17, 1797: "At Elkton . . . Hollingsworth's is a quiet, orderly Tavern, with good beds, and well in other respects".
If one wanted to comb through each diary entry, there is probably mention of Washington actually taking coins from his pocket and giving them to another person.
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gwhtml/gwseries1.html#D
Hope this helps. Interesting question. Although it's *highly unlikely* that Washington managed to go from 1794 to his death in 1799 without touching any U.S. coins
Edited for clarity!
<< <i>I believe there are numerous references to Washington retiring to his quarters. Glad to help.
That's pretty Hokie for a funny.
RYK- There is a letter (can't remember the source offhand) where a visitor to Mount Vernon describes Martha showing off the medals.
Re Washington, there is a letter where he *declines* an invitation to the Mint. However, the context is casual - suggesting that he had been at the Mint before, and declining this particular invitation was no big deal.
There was oral tradition in the Kates family (who owned the first mint property from 1835 to 1907) that Washington attended the cornerstone ceremony of the first Mint in 1792 - however, as Stewart points out, Washington was not in Philadelphia on the supposed day of placing the cornerstone.
Stewart indicates that Washington frequently visited the Mint, and this is likely - he lived a couple blocks away - but there is no document that actually proves this. However, it make no sense that he would make repeated references to the Mint in the annual Congressional address (today "State of the Union") and not visit it, being as close as he was.
There is good circumstantial evidence that Washington furnished the silver for 1792 half dismes, but no smoking gun. (Best article is in AJN second series #15.)
There is mythology that Washington also furnished copper for 1793 cents, and silver for 1792 dismes - I have much less confidence in these propositions.
Denga can no doubt provide additional info.
I see no problems with what coinosaurus has said. My opinion is that he visited the Mint on
a semi-regular basis. The Federal establishment was very small at that time and one would
think that the President would have preferred seeing the progress in person rather than
second-hand reports. Some decisions, however, required that a written record be kept and
in such cases Jefferson and Rittenhouse dealt with the President in that form.
The President had nothing to do directly with obtaining the copper but did expedite the
necessary funds for obtaining the metal, perhaps the source of the belief.
As very little silver was used for the pattern dismes it may well be true that Washington
furnished the silver.
Denga
<< <i>We know that Washington was not averse to using cash (as opposed to maintaing accounts) in the period from 1772-1776, because the Library of Congress has his personal cash memorandum books from that period, as well as from 1783-1784. In 1787, Washington also listed his daily expenses while at the constitutional convention in Philadelphia.
There is also a Mount Vernon accounts book for the period 1794-1796, after the creation of U.S. coinage. The book was maintained by Washington's farm manager, William Pearce. It is likely that some of the transactions recorded in the book involved George Washington handing money to someone else.
Here is a link to the documents described above -- the scans are online courtesy of the Library of Congress:
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gwhtml/gwseries5.html#GWC
In Washington's diaries from the post-U.S. coinage period, there are numerous entries which mention dining and lodging at various inns and taverns. Example from March 10, 1797: "Dined and lodged at Elkton. Tolerably pleasant all day." cf. Washington's letter to Elizabeth Willing Powell of March 17, 1797: "At Elkton . . . Hollingsworth's is a quiet, orderly Tavern, with good beds, and well in other respects".
If one wanted to comb through each diary entry, there is probably mention of Washington actually taking coins from his pocket and giving them to another person.
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gwhtml/gwseries1.html#D
Hope this helps. Interesting question. Although it's *highly unlikely* that Washington managed to go from 1794 to his death in 1799 without touching any U.S. coins
Edited for clarity! >>
There must have been hired help at Mount Vernon. Logically they were paid in money.
TD
1. George and jack the ripper used coins in their daily activities.
2. George would have liked Hugh Hefner, george would share coins and hugh would share the bunnies.
3. George was a drunk but would not drink with john adams, maybe Sam Adams ?
4. george was a thief and stole Martha's silver.
5. Then some actual facts, that there are polaroid pictures of: George cutting down the cherry tree and his wooden false teeth at some museum, and we know he must of lied at some time or another because he was a politician and a man.
6. He threw something into a river or across a river, causing the EPA to be invented.
Would not it be great if it was so today?
I wonder what GW would think if he came back to the USA today and observed the size and scope and breadth of the USA and the federal government of he headed 200+ years ago? Flabbergasted probably.
Further, politicians of today at times speak of our founding fathers with reverence. However it would be very interesting to see today's politicians come face to face with our founding fathers and engage in spirited discussion about all things political. I wonder of our founding fathers would castigate or glorify our political leaders of today, both Democratic and Republican.
Oh, that I wish you have read the article in the 2003 COAC book by Joel Orosz. He explains the twisted misinformation about these interesting pieces. It was not Jonas McClintock, and there was no special room set aside for Adam Eckfeldt (who was retired for five years) to bring his friends in and chat.
According to the third draft of the unvalidated letter dated in 1844, that was actually written in a series of articles in an 1853 newspaper, after Eckfeldt had died, the three drafts were written by local "historian" John McAllister, Jr. He was a optrician in Philadelphia. Those who believe and copy unconfirmed accounts need to quit believing and stop repeating the unvalidated "reports" and get updated on the latest research that has shown the old writings to be false. It would save a lot of consternation.
There is no record in any of Washington's documents (either as President or a private citizen at Mt. Vernon) that states he gave $100 worth of silver to the United States Mint., or anything at all for that matter for making U.S. coinage. He was not in Philadelphia when these were struck and there is absolutely no record of him ever owning one or giving them out to his friends or foreign diplomats, having them delivered by Jefferson, etc.
Adam Eckfeldt was not involved in any way with the United States Mint during July 1792 when these pieces were struck on Harper's screw press. In his position as Secretary of State, which oversaw the U.S. Mint, Jefferson recorded that he receivied 1,500 pieces on July 13, 1792, which were in all probability taken to the official repository of the U.S. Government, the Bank of the United States, and deposited for circulation before he left Phildelphia at the end of July.
Before anyone else wants to quote background information on what was happening with the United States Mint in 1792, please read the AJN #15, COAC book, or my book Henry Voigt and Others..." .
My readings about Washington have indicated that when he was running his plantation, Mt. Vernon, before and after his presidency that he was very much a hands on manager. He took to the fields every day on horseback to make sure that his managers and his slaves were putting in a good day’s work. He was known to be “tough but fair.” The only thing that kept him at home was illness and really bad weather. To say that he did not take an active interest in controlling the hard currency that his operations earned is defies logic.
It seems absurd to me he would have not have handled money of various types during his lifetime including U.S. coinage. Yes, the first mint was woefully unable to provide enough coinage to serve the nation’s needs. Most of the circulating coinage was foreign. But Washington was living in Philadelphia where the first mint was in operation. If there was any place where those coins did circulate and were available, it would have been Philadelphia. It is absurd to believe that Washington never saw and handled any of them.
The 1792 half dismes were one of his projects as indicated by his message to Congress after they were stuck. Given the bonding requirements which prevented mint employees from handing precious metals, Washington and Jefferson would have had to have taken personal responsibility for that minting activity. After all the problems that the early U.S. had had with underweight coins and other types of bogus currency, it’s hard to believe that Washington stayed above it all and didn’t even inspect some of the half dismes after they were struck. He would have been in dereliction of his duty if he had not.
Establishing a national monetary system was one of the most important functions of the early U.S. government. Yes, it did not perform that function well, in part because there were insufficient quantities of gold and silver available in the young republic. But to argue that high government officials did not take an active interest in the establishment of the first mint and its operations defies logic.
There is no record in any of Washington's documents (either as President or a private citizen at Mt. Vernon) that states he gave $100 worth of silver to the United States Mint., or anything at all for that matter for making U.S. coinage. He was not in Philadelphia when these were struck and there is absolutely no record of him ever owning one or giving them out to his friends or foreign diplomats, having them delivered by Jefferson, etc.
Adam Eckfeldt was not involved in any way with the United States Mint during July 1792 when these pieces were struck on Harper's screw press. In his position as Secretary of State, which oversaw the U.S. Mint, Jefferson recorded that he receivied 1,500 pieces on July 13, 1792, which were in all probability taken to the official repository of the U.S. Government, the Bank of the United States, and deposited for circulation before he left Phildelphia at the end of July.
Before anyone else wants to quote background information on what was happening with the United States Mint in 1792, please read the AJN #15, COAC book, or my book Henry Voigt and Others..." .
Some points in reference to the above:
1) The half dismes were delivered after Washington left Philadelphia but this does not mean that he
did not attend a ceremonial striking on the 11th and then leave for Mt. Vernon. It may even be that the
bulk of the coins were struck on the 11th and then poorly-struck pieces removed before delivery to
Jefferson on the 13th. If the screw press in question had a feeding mechanism it would have taken
less than an hour to strike 1,500 coins.
2) There was no “official repository” for coins struck at the Mint and all coins struck through 1837 were
made for private depositors. The Secretary of State received these coins in July 1792 because he was
the Cabinet officer responsible for the Mint and, as bonds had yet to be met, represented the government
in accepting the bullion and then paying out the coins. This does, of course, not prove that Washington
received the coins but if not the President, then who?
3) Adam Eckfeldt was not, as pointed out by firstmint, a Mint employee in July 1792 but he certainly would
have discussed Mint affairs when he came on board permanently in 1795. It is entirely possible that he was
privately paid by Rittenhouse to harden the half disme dies; it is known that the director did pay for certain
Mint expenses out of his own very ample funds. (When Rittenhouse died in 1796 his estate was worth about
$40,000, a very large sum for that time. Interestingly enough, however, Rittenhouse’s brother was in debtor’s
prison and got nothing from the estate although other family members came out well.)
Denga
I still have not heard conclusive evidence that GW actually used coins to make purchases, but I have read some very well-thought and well-researched responses on both sides. I have no doubt that he used money in his lifetime, but I am not satisfied that there is enough evidence that he regularly used US coins from 1793 until his death from a sore throat and subsequent bloodletting in 1799.
One thing that is very clear is that finding evidence that anyone used Federal coins in the early US (say, pre-1857) is challenging. This is not to say that they did not--just that we know that:
1) Federal coinage was in short supply
2) Federal coinage was melted regularly, depending on relative values of silver and gold and how the standards were set
3) There is little print documentation of the usage of coins
4) Foreign coinage was encouraged to circulate
5) Federal coinage, especially gold, was sent overseas to pay debts
GW was a business man and a soldier who gave orders and the President, to think that such an individual did not handle money produced by his own country that he had a hand in founding, fighting for and conducting business in besides just plain living is is absurd.
Again, no disrespect intended to Realone, but just because we think something must have been so does not make it so.
GW was a business man and a soldier who gave orders and the President, to think that such an individual did not handle money produced by his own country that he had a hand in founding, fighting for and conducting business in besides just plain living is is absurd. Him not handling U.S. money is akin to saying he had servants who wiped his buttox after using the outhouse, some mundane things were done by these great human being no matter large they were and who they knew.
I agree. I think it is safe to say that virtually every adult who lived outside the
sparsely-settled frontier areas in the 1790s used coins to a greater or lesser
extent. I do not think the President was an exception to this rule.
Denga
No disagreement here.
Perhaps there's a rare promissory note or receipt out there that will prove that GW transacted business in US coin. You'd think that pistareen guy would have piped up by now about this topic. He probably has a few letters from GW directly on point.
With that being said, my response was not made in arrogance, but rather from tiring of people believing untrue "facts" made by others who created their own history. I'm far from being alone in this, and as most of you know, the history we all learned in school is flawed to a noticeable extent. The same holds true with the 1792 Half Disme stories. There was no ceremonial striking or special assemblage for the 1792 coinage that can be validated.
In my posts (and book) I offer many contemporary citations regarding the subject. As for "obscure sources", I copy verbatim letters from Washington, Jefferson, and Rittenhouse during July of 1792 when some of these pieces were being created (the Getz 1792 pieces were made early in the year, while the silver-center cents were made in December). These are the very letters that were not copied by earlier researchers, and are hardly obscure since they are in the Library of Congress.
Washington was well aware of what the Mint was doing. He had wanted a National Mint since 1790. What I'm not sure of is that he actually ever visited the Mint. That was not his job, and believe it or not, COINAGE WAS NOT A PRIORITY for the President. And for those who believe the State of the Union address in October of 1792 yes, he did write what has been written over and over about a small beginning of half dismes in circulation. However, Washington always made mention of the Indian situations, the Military, the coinage, American expansion, etc. in all of his addresses after that date. Yes, I have copies of those as well.
We need to examine reality in the contemporary timeframe and mindset, rather than applying erroneous beliefs of today.
Washington lived a block away from Congress Hall and two blocks away from the Mint. There was no "White House" and formality was an uppermost consideration in dealing with the President (just like today). He sent runners to deliver his letters and messages rather than running all over Philadelphia himself. This is brought out in the July 9th and 10th letters I quoted in my book (which people can obtain from me should they want to) when Rittenhouse asked for an appropriation of $10,000 from Washington on the 10th, in which Washington wrote back, the same day, and approved the request.
As for the "official repository" that I mentioned, it was for the struck copper pieces that were to enter circulation, and as Denga pointed out, silver and gold depositors received payment in struck coin for the total of their assayed deposits after 1794.
Therefore, I wish to apologize if my research makes others think me "unpleasant". Being unpleasant is not the intent, but rather to put forth the proper information.
Edited to add - COAC stands for Coinage of Americas Conference published as the American Journal of Numismatics (AJN) by the ANS (American Numismatic Society) in NY (New York).
<< <i>
<< <i>In a former life, I looked through a box of promissory notes made by Washington that were related to all of his land dealings. There are literally dozens of boxes of these documents out there, so it's not like they're rare. I bet there are images of some of these notes on the web somewhere. The man bought, sold, and surveyed a hell of a lot of land (which may have something to do with the economic motivations behind the Revolution, and support for his Presidency among the real property development community, but I digress). Even in the 1780s and 1790s, as I recall, the denominations of all these notes were English pounds/shillings/pence, payable in "specie of the crown" (English coins) or something like that. I forgot the exact words, but I remember clearly that none of the notes I saw were made out in denominations of dollars/cents. So, the upshot is that based on my very limited experience, President Washington apparently didn't use US coins - or even US denominations - for most, if not all, of his land deals. That said, it's hard to imagine that he didn't handle some of the early coins for margaritas and lap dances.
I agree that he used foreigh coinage, but remember we are speaking a very short time frame from 1792 to 1799, and even shorter considering he had to be ill or weak at the time of his death, I would think if he used foreigh coins then when U.S. coins came available he would have definitely used them, heck he had the best access to them and I have to believe would have been honored to use them. We are talking coins used for every day living how could he not use U.S. coins, he was the ex Prez of the land. >>
It is my understanding that Washington was quite robust up until the illness that resulted in him being inadvertently killed by his doctors.
TD
<< <i>Edited to add - COAC stands for Coinage of Americas Conference published as the American Journal of Numismatics (AJN) by the ANS (American Numismatic Society) in NY (New York). >>
Okay, now I know where this information was published. I have a lot of those books from those conferences from the late 1980s and 1990s, but I have not been able to obtain any of the later editions. The book sellers I know (e.g. Charles Davis) tell me that they are unavailable. That’s too bad, but I suppose the ANS must have had trouble selling them which means that they have not gotten wide distribution.
<< <i>About a year ago, I read "His Excellency: George Washington" by Joseph J. Ellis, and did not get any sense that GW has handling money in financial transactions.
I like DaveG's answer best (so far).
Realone, respectfully, what you "would have thought" does not get us any closer to the answer of the question. >>
Did this great thread ever get any closer to answering the question to RYK's satisfaction?
Two things - in the American State Papers, De Saussure (the second mint director) shows obvious pride in the first gold coinage:
Document No. 84 is de Saussure's report to the Senate dated December 14, 1795, which states "The enclosed documents, marked B and C, will shew the quantity of precious metals which have been worked up and coined; partly under the direction of Mr. Rittenhouse, partly under mine. The gold, wholly under mine." (p. 356). Document C indicates that from July 31, 1795 to October 24, 1795, 1,884 eagles and 8,707 half eagles were struck.
Later, De Saussure's biographer amplifies. This, from 1841, by the Hon. William Harper ("Memoir of the Life, Character, and Public Services of the Late Hon. Henry Wm. De Saussure"):
"General Washington, whose habit was to see the heads of departments every week at his table, upon one of these occasions, expressed to the director of the mint [de Saussure] his satisfaction at the activity which had been introduced into the silver coinage, and added, 'I have long desired to see gold coined at the mint, but your predecessor found insuperable difficulties. I should be much gratified if it could be accomplished before I leave office.' 'I will try,' was the reply; and the director went to the mint, summoned the officers, ascertained the wants and difficulties of each department, and by great diligence, speedily removed all obstacles. In six weeks he carried to the President a handful of gold eagles, and received his thanks and approbation."
So, we have an account from 1841 which places gold eagles in the hand of the President in 1795.
I am sure some of our resident forum skeptics will demand a videotape of the event. Personally, I'd like to see something more contemporary than 1841, but based on the weight of the evidence, I would lean towards the conclusion that GW personally handled US coinage.
<< <i>I thought I remembered something else about this & my research partner has come to the rescue.
Two things - in the American State Papers, De Saussure (the second mint director) shows obvious pride in the first gold coinage:
Document No. 84 is de Saussure's report to the Senate dated December 14, 1795, which states "The enclosed documents, marked B and C, will shew the quantity of precious metals which have been worked up and coined; partly under the direction of Mr. Rittenhouse, partly under mine. The gold, wholly under mine." (p. 356). Document C indicates that from July 31, 1795 to October 24, 1795, 1,884 eagles and 8,707 half eagles were struck.
Later, De Saussure's biographer amplifies. This, from 1841, by the Hon. William Harper ("Memoir of the Life, Character, and Public Services of the Late Hon. Henry Wm. De Saussure"):
"General Washington, whose habit was to see the heads of departments every week at his table, upon one of these occasions, expressed to the director of the mint [de Saussure] his satisfaction at the activity which had been introduced into the silver coinage, and added, 'I have long desired to see gold coined at the mint, but your predecessor found insuperable difficulties. I should be much gratified if it could be accomplished before I leave office.' 'I will try,' was the reply; and the director went to the mint, summoned the officers, ascertained the wants and difficulties of each department, and by great diligence, speedily removed all obstacles. In six weeks he carried to the President a handful of gold eagles, and received his thanks and approbation."
So, we have an account from 1841 which places gold eagles in the hand of the President in 1795.
I am sure some of our resident forum skeptics will demand a videotape of the event. Personally, I'd like to see something more contemporary than 1841, but based on the weight of the evidence, I would lean towards the conclusion that GW personally handled US coinage. >>
That's good stuff. Now, to fully answer the question, we might need videotape evidence of him using one of the 1795 eagles to buy a burrito at Qdoba.
<< <i>Didn't he have to handle us coins when he used the pay phone at the corner near the whitehouse to call Martha so she wouldn't worry when he and John Adams were having margaritas at the local pub? >>
.....
.....obviously, what we need is..........................a smoking coin!
firstmint wrote Monday December 28, 2009 10:05 PM
<< <i>...the State of the Union address in October of 1792 yes, he did write what has been written over and over about a small beginning of half dismes in circulation. However, Washington always made mention of the Indian situations, the Military, the coinage, American expansion, etc. in all of his addresses after that date. Yes, I have copies of those as well. ...
>>
firstmint, was anything said in Washington's other addresses regarding coinage that would be interesting to post here? (Even if it may not relate to the original poster's question.)
"To Be Esteemed Be Useful" - 1792 Birch Cent --- "I personally think we developed language because of our deep need to complain." - Lily Tomlin
<< <i>It is my understanding that Washington was quite robust up until the illness that resulted in him being inadvertently killed by his doctors.
TD >>
According to the record, this is true. Something about his last day spent surveying his land in the cold and rain. When he came home, he developed a cold or a fever. Doctors were brought in who prescribed bloodletting. The loss of blood led to a weakening of his immune system, which eventually led to his death. Conventional wisdom is that had nothing been done, he would have been fine.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
This thread has been a great read, really enjoying folks' opinions, logic, and citations of original sources, an example of all that is good about this forum, as well as why RYK (and others) are known as "excessively prominent" members.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
1793 - Annual Address, December 3: On the 1st day of June last an installment of 1,000,000 Florins became payable on the loans of the United States in Holland. This was adjusted by a prolongation of the period of reimbursement in nature of a new loan at an interest of 5 per cent for the term of ten years....".
December 30, 1793 to Congress: I lay before your consideration, a letter from the Secretary of State, informing me of certain impediments which have arisen to the coinage of the precious metals at the Mint, as also a letter from the same officer relative to certain advances on money which have been made on public account..."
1794 - Annual Address, November 19: "The Mint of the United States has entered upon the coinage of the precious metals, and considerable sums of defective coins and bullion have been lodged with the Director by individuals. There is a pleasing prospect that the institution will at no remote day realize the expectation which was originally formed of its utility".
1795 - Annual Address, December 8: "The statements which will be laid before you relative to the Mint will shew the situation of that institution and the necessity of some further legislative provisions for carrying the business of it more completely into effect, and for checking abuses which appear to be arising in particular quarters..."
1796 - Washington's Farewell Address of September 17, 1796: Nothing specific mentioned about the Mint or coinage. Nothing mentioned about the Mint or coinage in the December 7, 1796, Annual Address either.
1797 - Proclamation, July 22: "Now, therefore, I, the said John Adams, President of the United States, hereby proclaim, announce, and give notice to all whom it may concern that, agreeably to the act last above mentioned (February 1793) the coinage of silver at the Mint of the United States commenced on the 15th day of October, 1794, and the coinage of gold on the 31st day of July, 1795; and that consequently, in conformity to the act first above mentioned, all foreign silver coins, except Spanish milled dollars and parts of such dollars, will cease to pass current as money within theUnited States and to be a legal tender for the payment of any debts or demands after the 15th day of October next, and all foreign gold coins will cease to be a legal tender as aforesaid for the payment of any debts or demands after the 31st day of July, which will be A.D. 1798".
<< <i>...all foreign silver coins, except Spanish milled dollars and parts of such dollars, will cease to pass current as money within theUnited States and to be a legal tender for the payment of any debts or demands after the 15th day of October next, and all foreign gold coins will cease to be a legal tender as aforesaid for the payment of any debts or demands after the 31st day of July, which will be A.D. 1798". >>
Apparently that did not happen according to Adams' plan since foreign coins remained legal tender in the US until 1857.
Is that right? Or am I missing something?
<< <i>
<< <i>...all foreign silver coins, except Spanish milled dollars and parts of such dollars, will cease to pass current as money within theUnited States and to be a legal tender for the payment of any debts or demands after the 15th day of October next, and all foreign gold coins will cease to be a legal tender as aforesaid for the payment of any debts or demands after the 31st day of July, which will be A.D. 1798". >>
Apparently that did not happen according to Adams' plan since foreign coins remained legal tender in the US until 1857.
Is that right? Or am I missing something? >>
That is how I understand it, as well.
<< <i>
<< <i>...all foreign silver coins, except Spanish milled dollars and parts of such dollars, will cease to pass current as money within the United States and to be a legal tender for the payment of any debts or demands after the 15th day of October next, and all foreign gold coins will cease to be a legal tender as aforesaid for the payment of any debts or demands after the 31st day of July, which will be A.D. 1798". >>
Apparently that did not happen according to Adams' plan since foreign coins remained legal tender in the US until 1857.
Is that right? Or am I missing something? >>
You are quite correct, if you are referring to what happened in ordinary, everyday lives.
Lance.
http://demint.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?Fuseaction=Regions.Home&Region_id=e132594d-fac7-48fe-8043-a5ff8baf7ff3
About a third of the way down... (Barr's Tavern)
I specialize in Errors, Minting, Counterfeit Detection & Grading.
Computer-aided grading, counterfeit detection, recognition and imaging.
A further example comes from John Adams on March 23, 1798, where he proclaims Thanksgiving on May 9th, "I have therefore thought it fit to recommend, and I hereby recommend, that Wednesday, the 9th of May next, be observed throuout the United States as a day of solemn humiliation, fasting, and prayer; that the citizens of these States, abstaining on that day from their customary occupations, offer their devout addresses to the Father of Mercies agreeably to those forms or methods which they have severally adopted as the most suitable and becoming: that all religious congregations do, with the deepest humility, acknowledge before God the manifold sins and transgressions with which we are chargeable as individuals and as a nation...".
Yes, foregin coinage was legal tender until 1857. The Proclamation in the earlier post was presented to offer some contemporary background on what was really happening back then.
There is no documentation surrounding this coin to support the idea that it was Washington's personal example, so this is just a "curiousity" if you will - intriguing idea nonetheless.
It is online at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/16/arts/design/16sothebys.html?scp=1&sq=washington wayne&st=cse
It is the letter of transmittal and indicates that Washington personally handled the medal.
<< <i>I am told, by an excessively prominent numismatist, the sort of numismatist that goes by their initials, that, in the Arts section of today's New York Times, there is a copy of a letter from Washington to General Wayne discussing Wayne's Comitia medal.
It is online at:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/16/arts/design/16sothebys.html?scp=1&sq=washington wayne&st=cse
It is the letter of transmittal and indicates that Washington personally handled the medal. >>
Thanks. I need to check this out when I get home from work.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
The Anthony Wayne medal (voted by Congress) was originally ordered struck in 1780 by Benjamin Franklin, with the one that Jefferson brought back from France and gave to Washington to transmit to Wayne was struck in 1789.
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......