Is there any contemporary evidence that George Washington...
RYK
Posts: 35,797 ✭✭✭✭✭
actually handled US-minted coins in his lifetime?
I have seen numerous tongue-in-cheek statements to the effect that our Founding Father #1 may have handled this coin or that coin, and I even saw a well-respected dealer, when explaining a minor rim bruise on a Chain cent, declare that it was "from when George dropped it". While it is certainly fun to speculate that a famous person may have handled your 200+ year old US coin, is there any evidence that George Washington actually handled and used US coins in his lifetime?
I have seen numerous tongue-in-cheek statements to the effect that our Founding Father #1 may have handled this coin or that coin, and I even saw a well-respected dealer, when explaining a minor rim bruise on a Chain cent, declare that it was "from when George dropped it". While it is certainly fun to speculate that a famous person may have handled your 200+ year old US coin, is there any evidence that George Washington actually handled and used US coins in his lifetime?
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<< <i>Didn't he have to handle us coins when he used the pay phone at the corner near the whitehouse to call Martha so she wouldn't worry when he and John Adams were having margaritas at the local pub? >>
Absolutely not true. He and John Adams were not friends and would not be caught dead having margaritas, hitting Bellagio, or taking in the Super Bowl together.
There were also accounts that Washington personally handed out examples of the 1792 half dismes as the first examples of American silver coinage. At the time issuing a silver coin, all be it a very small one, was an important symbol of sovereignty. It is generally assumed to be true that Washington did provide the silver for these coins, although it was in the form of foreign coins, NOT Martha’s silverware.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Washington lived until Dec 1799 and the mint started coin production in 1793 so he must have seen and handled US coins especially during his second term as president. >>
You say so, but how do you know? Because Safeway did not accept credit cards or checks until the mid-1800's, and Martha made him do the grocery runs? Perhaps he sent servants or employees to make the small dollar transactions for his farms or personal effects.
<< <i>
<< <i>Washington lived until Dec 1799 and the mint started coin production in 1793 so he must have seen and handled US coins especially during his second term as president. >>
You say so, but how do you know? Because Safeway did not accept credit cards or checks until the mid-1800's, and Martha made him do the grocery runs? Perhaps he sent servants or employees to make the small dollar transactions for his farms or personal effects. >>
I can't imagine the President of a new country not wanting to see his country's first coinage.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Washington lived until Dec 1799 and the mint started coin production in 1793 so he must have seen and handled US coins especially during his second term as president. >>
You say so, but how do you know? Because Safeway did not accept credit cards or checks until the mid-1800's, and Martha made him do the grocery runs? Perhaps he sent servants or employees to make the small dollar transactions for his farms or personal effects. >>
I can't imagine the President of a new country not wanting to see his country's first coinage. >>
So based on what PerryHall (and others) "can't imagine", we can take as fact that George Washington used US coins in commerce in his day. Okay dokey.
Where's RWB when we need him? I want to see factual evidence or accounts, not speculation.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>That would be like asking if Jack the Ripper held this coin before doing his nasty deeds in 1888. We'll never know! >>
Now there's an unexpected comparison - George Washington to Jack the Ripper!
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<< <i> Perhaps he sent servants or employees to make the small dollar transactions for his farms or personal effects. >>
General Washington established this precedent and it is faithfully followed today by many highly esteemed Americans, such as our very own Mr. Longacre
whiskey? I think he must have used coins but I'll look through my whiskey receipts
for evidence.
bob
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
However, you can draw conclusions from what we know of how people of GW's social class lived and how the commerce of the time was conducted.
From what relatively little I've read, it's clear that America at the time was a cash-poor economy. If you were a farmer or lived in a small town, you probably rarely saw any money (perhaps once a year). If you were a propserous householder in New York or Philadelphia, you probably had accounts with each of your merchants and you paid them quarterly. Even if you were a merchant doing business with other merchants in England or Holland, you probably did most of your trading with bank drafts on English or Dutch banks.
On the whole, most people just didn't use money.
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I like DaveG's answer best (so far).
Realone, respectfully, what you "would have thought" does not get us any closer to the answer of the question.
<< <i>I can't imagine the President of a new country not wanting to see his country's first coinage. >>
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
<< <i>Ryk is asking for proof. Something that GW posted on facebook or perhaps Martha's email message to her homies that has a digipic with geo balancing a stack of freshly minted dollars on his chin while he beerbongs a couple Sam Adams. >>
I think I saw that video. Before it was pulled.
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
As for Washington's personal use of our early coins, I don't know...maybe FirstMint can shed some light on this subject from his research. However, I am inclined to side with Realone and others who have said that it's reasonable to believe that he did use coins in his daily life either for running his plantations and other business ventures, or in his efforts to promote the mint and our nation's sovereignty.
Here is some additional information on that subject from www.earlyuscoins.org.
"...the first Director of the Mint David Rittenhouse sought to remedy the situation as soon as possible, even advancing his own monies when necessary...On July 9, 1792, both Thomas Jefferson (then Secretary of State with official oversight of the U.S. Mint) and Rittenhouse contacted President George Washington for approval to move forward, with Rittenhouse's letter to the President stating in part:
...as small money is very much wanted we think proper, in the mean time, if your Excellency approves of it, to Coin some Copper Cents & Half Cents, and likewise small Silver, at least Dimes and Half Dimes. I have purchased on account of the United States, a House & Lot which I hope will be found convenient for the Mint but, considerable alterations must be made...I have likewise engaged Mr. Voigt to act as Coiner, and ... several workmen... I shall be happy in receiving your Excellency's approbation of these preparatory steps, together with such further directions as you may think proper to give.
President Washington responded with his approvals that same day:
Having had under consideration the letter of the Director of the Mint of this day's date, I hereby declare my approbation of the purchase he has made of the house and lot for the Mint; of the employment of Mr. Voight as Coiner...and proceeding to coin the Cents and half Cents of Copper, and Dismes and half Dismes of Silver."
Also, it is relatively well known that Washington publicly acknowledged the first U.S. coins in his November 6, 1792 National address:
"In execution of authority given by the legislature, measures have been taken for engaging some artists from abroad to aid in the establishment of our mint. Others have been employed at home. Provisions have been made for the requisite buildings, and these are now putting into proper condition for the purposes of the establishment. There has been a small beginning in the coinage of half dimes, the want of small coins in circulation calling the first attention to them."
Edited for clarity.
Actually, despite the Mint's good intentions, it did a rather poor job of supplying the country with money up to the middle of the 19th century.
As Carothers points out, prior to 1834:
"With no gold coins or silver dollars in circulation the half-dollar was the desirable coin for major transactions, bank reserves, and payments abroad. The coins did not circulate widely. They went from the mint to the Bank of the United States. The Bank distributed them to is own vaults, to other banks, and to brokers who exported them. A Senate committee of 1830 reported that United States silver coins were regarded as so much bullion and were 'lost to the community as coins.' They estimated that of the $25 million in silver coined since the opening of the mint only $14 million remained in the country, and of this amount $2 million was in the reserves of the Bank.
The coinage of quarters, dimes, and half-dimes, as comtrasted with the half-dollar, was negligible from 1792 to 1834. In nineteen yers of this period there was no coinage of quarter-dollars, in thirteen years no coinage of dimes, and in twenty-six years no half-dimes. The total number of quarters, dimes, and half-dimes coins before 1830 was less than one piece for each person in the country in that year."
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Camelot
There is a letter (can't remember the source offhand) where a visitor to Mount Vernon describes Martha showing off the medals.
Re Washington, there is a letter where he *declines* an invitation to the Mint. However, the context is casual - suggesting that he had been at the Mint before, and declining this particular invitation was no big deal.
There was oral tradition in the Kates family (who owned the first mint property from 1835 to 1907) that Washington attended the cornerstone ceremony of the first Mint in 1792 - however, as Stewart points out, Washington was not in Philadelphia on the supposed day of placing the cornerstone.
Stewart indicates that Washington frequently visited the Mint, and this is likely - he lived a couple blocks away - but there is no document that actually proves this. However, it make no sense that he would make repeated references to the Mint in the annual Congressional address (today "State of the Union") and not visit it, being as close as he was.
There is good circumstantial evidence that Washington furnished the silver for 1792 half dismes, but no smoking gun. (Best article is in AJN second series #15.)
There is mythology that Washington also furnished copper for 1793 cents, and silver for 1792 dismes - I have much less confidence in these propositions.
Denga can no doubt provide additional info.
It is clear that Washington had some interest in coinage, but still no evidence that he used it for purchases.
Similarly, it is clear that I have a great interest in NFL football, but no contemporary evidence that I have ever thrown a pass in an NFL game.
<< <i>
Similarly, it is clear that I have a great interest in NFL football, but no contemporary evidence that I have ever thrown a pass in an NFL game.
If you had, it would explain the Rams' record.
<< <i>Coinosaurus,
It is clear that Washington had some interest in coinage, but still no evidence that he used it for purchases.
Similarly, it is clear that I have a great interest in NFL football, but no contemporary evidence that I have ever thrown a pass in an NFL game.
Let me ask the question this way - can you find any news account that President Obama has ever handled U.S. coinage? Roosevelt? Lincoln? It is certain that they all did, but so unremarkable a fact that no one would bother mentioning it. I don't find the absence of documentation in this situation to be compelling.
As numismatists, the question of whether Washington handled US coinage is interesting to us, but I doubt anyone would have been much interested in the topic in 18th century Philadelphia.
--Franz Kafka
Wouldn't we assume he used coins for everyday purchases unless he was wealth enough to send servants to purchase everything for him? That isn't how I picture his wealth. --jerry
The myths that have become fact about Washington and his involvement with the United States Mint are for the most part myths. He was asked to come to the Mint by David Rittenhouse in November 1792 after the furnace was finally operational to witness the first assay by David Ott, of foreign coins, but he declined, even though his residence (actually Robert Morris') was less than two "squares" (blocks today) away at 6th and Market.
Most, if not all interaction went from Jefferson to Rittenhouse, and from Jefferson to Washington. There were numerous more important things that the President had to attend to, and because of his military background, he let his appointed cabinet members conduct the business they were hired to do. Protocol in letter form was very important for government officials. Washington was very confident in Rittenhouse's abilities to manage the Mint.
As for the silver being supplied for the 1792 half disme's, there is no validation for this rumor, which has been with numismatists since the early 1840's. As Coinosaurus mentioned, the article in the AJN second series, by Joel Orosz presents the best accounting of the assorted tales over the years.
As for Washington's pocket change, there is no record that I'm aware of in print (newspapers or otherwise) to validate any of his spending money. We can only assume he carried some American coinage with him or had it available for sundry items. He apparently saw the 1792 Getz patterns and did not want his portrait on the coins.
There is no record that Washington ever visited the U.S. Mint between 1792 and 1798 when he was in Philadelphia (excluding 1797 and 1799), but as President, he always knew what was going on from reports and activities that Jefferson (until he left in 1794) and Hamilton provided to him whenever it was a topic of interest (such as the changes in Mint Directors or the closures because of the Yellow Fever, etc.). It needs to be remembered that Washington had decided to retire after his first term in May of 1792 before the Mint was even constructed.
The Comitia Americana medal set was given to Washington upon Jefferson's return from France in 1789.
Much of this background, and a lot more, is in my "Henry Voigt and Others Involved with America's Early Coinage" book that came out in 2007.
<< <i>I believe there are numerous references to Washington retiring to his quarters. Glad to help.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Best,
GW
What about the account of B. Franklin having a pocket full of Coppers when he was a young lad.
<< <i>
<< <i>Coinosaurus,
It is clear that Washington had some interest in coinage, but still no evidence that he used it for purchases.
Similarly, it is clear that I have a great interest in NFL football, but no contemporary evidence that I have ever thrown a pass in an NFL game.
Let me ask the question this way - can you find any news account that President Obama has ever handled U.S. coinage? Roosevelt? Lincoln? It is certain that they all did, but so unremarkable a fact that no one would bother mentioning it. I don't find the absence of documentation in this situation to be compelling.
As numismatists, the question of whether Washington handled US coinage is interesting to us, but I doubt anyone would have been much interested in the topic in 18th century Philadelphia. >>
The Urban myth of George Bush and the Grocery scanner...
George and the scanner
OK - what about it?
Me want context! Me want a quote! Me want a source!
Me really disappointed with one sentence posts!
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From B. Franklins autobiography " I had in my pocket a handfull of copper money, three or four silver dollars and five pistoles in gold".
and from a private letter of his, this excerpt: " when seven years of age some friends during the holidays filled my pocket with coppers"
A quick on line search of Franklins autobio will reveal a couple more times he spoke of the coppers/coinage in use.
I've read parts of the book but not all.
been full of English coppers in 1713.
Mojo
-Jim Morrison-
Mr. Mojorizn
my blog:www.numistories.com
That was a start - how about developing your theme?
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<< <i>Would it really be important enough for newspapers or historians to note that GW handled some US coins? >>
Quite right.
I have never seen a contemporary newspaper account of George Washington blowing his nose or going to the outhouse, so maybe RYK can make the assertion that he must never have done either of those activities as well........
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