This is just a thought.....so please don"t shoot the messenger......about copper/pcgs

SUMORADA

I can understand why pcgs has decided to not guarantee copper color in the future, copper is IMO very unpredictable and these days it appears that anything that looks the slightest bit "Out Of The Norm" gets a genuine holder which is bad enough but ATS it gets a "Altered Color" or something like that, both are the kiss of death!

For years I have purchased IHC and Early Lincolns that were placed in "Advertising Pocket Mirrors" from obw rolls I assume back in the day, for the most part these coins were in time capsules, however in some cases I would guess because of the conditions they were stored in they often display toning on one side and not the other, these are Mint State Coins...........yet these days they come back in Genuine holders from both sides of the street....

IMO this is unfair to the person who submits a coin that is BU ....it may not look like what they would expect it to like like .......but the fact remains it is a BU Copper!

On the other hand if I were one of the major TPG companies I would not give a guarantee (buyback) on any copper coin, because there is really no way to know for sure what
the copper has been exposed to and what reaction will take place down the road.

I don't know how to work out a fair way to do this but I'm suggesting that instead of a blanket "WE DO NOT GUARENTEE COPPER COLOR"...we do a Guarantee on Copper on a Piece by Piece basis.

For example, If the TPG gets an early IHC or Lincoln that they feel has original surfaces toned or otherwise but feel that conditions beyond there control could over time change the color....Grade it accordingly and guarantee the grade, and charge more money to do it......yes like insurance!

This should solve the problem for the TPG's of having to buy back certain coins and solve the problem that now exists for the folks submitting good copper!

IMO this or something similar would solve a lot of problems..........thoughts, opinions welcome.

Happy Holidays Everyone!

llafoe

Too complicated.

lope208

Indeed, complicated, and tough to explain to customers.

Can you imagine someone buying a "guaranteed" copper and then wondering why their next copper isn't guaranteed?

MrEureka

How many RD Lincolns will be RD in 1000 years? If your answer is zero or anything approaching zero, then you should agree that color cannot be safely guaranteed in the long term. Yes, 1000 years is a long time. But how do you figure out how many years would be safe?

ajia

<<For example, If the TPG gets an early IHC or Lincoln that they feel has original surfaces toned or otherwise but feel that conditions beyond there control could over time change the color....Grade it accordingly and guarantee the grade, and charge more money to do it......yes like insurance!>>

Let me see if I get this right.
In your scenario, say i sent in 10 copper coins
With five of them PCGS finds nothing wrong. Coins grade RED and they are guaranteed for the RED designation at no additional cost.
My other five have 'conditions beyond (their) control could over time change the color'.
Of course this would mean non-original surfaces IMO, but.......
So for these five I need to pay an additional charge for 'insurance'.

Here's my problem with this...
Say you have coins that had the surcharge added, then a few years later you decide to sell, but the coins have not turned......or you keep the coins & 10 years later they haven't turned.
Depending on this 'insurance' charge, and the amount paid for all those insured, wouldn't you start to think this 'insurance' charge was just a scam to get more money?
Kinda like 'extended warranties'.

Would these insurance 'premiums' be based on the value of the coin once graded?

I presume the insurance would be transferable? Possibly making those more valuable when it's time to sell.
MMMM, then would this make those with 'conditions' & insurance more valuable than those without 'conditions' & no insurance?

golfer72

The big problem with the guarantee change is not grandfathering coins graded before Dec 31 2009. That is where PCGS is wrong. They will say well they are still guaranteed if purchased before 12/31/09. But what good does that do? The values will drop a lot since whoever ends up buying these coins will have no guarantee so they will pay less. A coin is only worth what someone else will pay for it . Everyone who bought Red PCGS copper before this announcement did so with the understanding that they were guranteed and now that guarantee is gone.

SUMORADA

The big problem with the guarantee change is not grandfathering coins graded before Dec 31 2009. That is where PCGS is wrong.



Since this decision has already been made whether we agree or not..it's null...

My thought is about what will take place from now on, I read the opinions, for one as to it being to complicated, it does not have to be....

A suggestion would be that when a Copper was submitted for grade it would be submitted under one or the other of two different tiers.....

1. The regular which we have been using that now (next week) does not guarantee color......= same cost as before. but with no guarantee. ( just to keep it simple cost is 10.00)

2. Tier (2) grade with color guarantee......and different label that reflects the guarantee..( with all due respect to our host and other TPG's...a different label should not be a problem....LABELS=$$$).... ( just to keep it simple cost is 20.00)

So if submitted under #1 you get what you have always had -minus- the color guarantee....

under #2 you could still only get what you have always had -minus- the color guarantee....or you could get the color guarantee!

It's a roll of the dice, similar to crossing at any grade.....at least you get the opportunity to have good copper guaranteed instead of a blanket kiss of death.

Simply put, the TPG now has a plus on the side of "Good Copper" they make the right decision...they make $$$

The submitter has "Good Copper" it gets certified as such..with the Guarantee.

And before you ask...What's gonna keep the TPG from just taking your $20 and not giving you the "Guarantee Label"

Simple...just like every other business...if they only sell to you one time, they lose $$$ they want and need repeat business to survive.

These are just some thoughts and suggestions that I have..........opinions welcome.

Boom

roadrunner

I think 50-100 years is plenty long enough. No need for 1000 years.

We don't expect the TPG to ensure that our brilliant white BU silver coins will remain that way for 1000 years....or even 1 year, so why the fuss over copper?

roadrunner

Pushkin

Red and Red Brown are two of the most subjective designations in professional grading. PCGS and NGC should stop giving these designations. The market can decide what a coin's value is and then "you buys your coin and you takes your chances".

With a few exceptions, I've always thought that RD in particular, and RB in general are phony designations - taking them off the label would end the controversy and allow more time and space for meaningful forum discussions.

PerryHall

<< <i>How many RD Lincolns will be RD in 1000 years? If your answer is zero or anything approaching zero, then you should agree that color cannot be safely guaranteed in the long term. Yes, 1000 years is a long time. But how do you figure out how many years would be safe? >>



Will PCGS be around in a thousand years?

segoja

Silver coins are not designated white or toned

Copper does turn. Just look at the older copper coins....less exist in red than more recent coins....it's just a time thing that turns them.

I think that's why laquered copper coins exist...it was a normal way to preserve the surfaces

19Lyds

......................

SUMORADA

19Lyds..............

Lee, I could be way off on this but I sense a tad of hostility in your reply........

mozeppa

This is what ruined it for me...... was the whole....

"copper that old couldn't possibly still be red, otherwise it would have been graded by now...and we really can't be sure....so lets body bag it."
" it has to have been messed with... its too old to be red...and were not able to tell....so lets body bag it."

mentality.




but then i'm getting out of it all.

tahoe98

......1000 years? didn't you guys know it will be over in 2012??

keets

i can understand why they don't want to continue guaranteeing the color on copper, also. what i can't agree with them on is the fact that they guaranteed a coin's color in the past when they encapsulated it and now they are reneging on that "guarantee" with an arbitrary date and change of ownership. that is just wrong. it tells me that they aren't to be trusted in the future with ANY TYPE OF EXPLICIT GUARANTEE THAT THEY OFFER because they are liable to change it at their discretion.

ksteelheader

<< <i>

<< <i>How many RD Lincolns will be RD in 1000 years? If your answer is zero or anything approaching zero, then you should agree that color cannot be safely guaranteed in the long term. Yes, 1000 years is a long time. But how do you figure out how many years would be safe? >>



Will PCGS be around in a thousand years? >>



Companies that we never expected to fold have done so. PCGS could do the same at any time due to circumstances.

19Lyds

<< <i>19Lyds..............

Lee, I could be way off on this but I sense a tad of hostility in your reply........

>>



No hostility at all.........just goofing around since I have no horse in this race and nothing constructive to add.

19Lyds

<< <i>Companies that we never expected to fold have done so. PCGS could do the same at any time due to circumstances. >>



I'm sure this is in NGC's prayers on a daily if not hourly basis!

Elcontador

1) Designating color at the time a coin is graded is not a problem. The problems are changing grading standards, coin doctoring, and color on some coins mellowing with age. It used to be that a coin which was between 5% and 95% RD was in a RB holder. Imo, this was changed so that a coin with between 20-25% and 85-90% RD was RB, and a coin between 85-90% plus was designated RD. This is why you don't see many RD coins in older holders. It is also why you see many coins with less than 20% to 25% RD in old holders still in such holders.

2) Redesignating color on copper whose appearance has changed since it was originally graded is a nuisance (and can be costly) for the grading services. Imo, as standards for color designations changed, the market "took care of itself."

3) Color can be guaranteed if the powers that be wished to do so. Even with the RD Lincolns, PCGS knows when they were slabbed, and could have a conditional guarantee after six months or a year (they know when such coins turn better than I do), as to exclude the overwhelming majority of such coins from such guarantee. The net effect of such procedure would in essence freeze much of this market until such time period elapsed. Personally, I'd be fine with it, and under these circumstances, would be fine buying an early date RD Lincoln in MS (or PF) 65 or 66 after waiting the necessary amount of time.