<< <i>... 1969 S DDO graded ms 65 red ... the collector who won the coin in 1992 submit the coin to PCGS under guaranteed submission. PCGS paid this collector $75,000 or $80,000 for the coin and then put it in the FUN 2005 auction where it only brought $36,000.
Stewart >>
Am I understanding this correctly? PCGS paid out under the guarantee and then returned the coin to the market in the same holder without downgrading it??
"Wars are really ugly! They're dirty and they're cold. I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole." Mary
It sounds like they regraded it and auctioned it off in a new holder, with the lower grade. Apparently it was still a nice coin when correctly presented as an MS64RB, enough to bring in $36,000 at auction. It's hard to picture this along-side the description of a fingerprint materializing, so if anyone has pictures of the coin involved, I'm curious.
Improperly Cleaned, Our passion for numismatics is Genuine! Now featuring correct spelling.
It should be interesting to watch the lawsuits unfold. I don't know how a company can both extend and charge for a guarantee, reneg, and then expect any other outcome. You can't expect to build a stable platform, kick the legs out of under it, and expect things not to break.
Now if they were actually worried about liability, they would have created a slightly different holder - a label change, perhaps - and suspended the guarantee on new holdered coins. It would have been effective in minimising ongoing risk and the honourable thing to do.
<< <i>Most of my PCGS slabs are the blue ones with the series and coin number on the label. They stopped issuing them in 2005 or 2006.
Steve >>
<< <i>Steve,
If I am correct I think the 7 digit blue label holders ended around 2/2002? Then the holder type you mention went from 2002 until 2006. Seems like 4 years would give the coins enough time in the holder to prove they are stable.
Brian Wagner >>
In the immanent, upcoming reality of a "no-more-PCGS-copper-color-guarantee" new world, it would be useful if PCGS would put a "look-up" box on its website where one could type in a cert. number and get back the date that the coin was encapsulated. If a coin can be expected to show tamperng within a year of its being slabbed that would be very helpful. If the coin was slabbed before 2006 the look-up result could read "Prior" because you can tell if a coin was encapsulated by PCGS before then just by looking at the insert, and it seems the consensus is that more than four years is safe.
I am not kidding,
G99G I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart NOT.
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
<< <i>Most of my PCGS slabs are the blue ones with the series and coin number on the label. They stopped issuing them in 2005 or 2006.
Steve >>
<< <i>Steve,
If I am correct I think the 7 digit blue label holders ended around 2/2002? Then the holder type you mention went from 2002 until 2006. Seems like 4 years would give the coins enough time in the holder to prove they are stable.
Brian Wagner >>
In the immanent, upcoming reality of a "no-more-PCGS-copper-color-guarantee" new world, it would be useful if PCGS would put a "look-up" box on its website where one could type in a cert. number and get back the date that the coin was encapsulated. If a coin can be expected to show tamperng within a year of its being slabbed that would be very helpful. If the coin was slabbed before 2006 the look-up result could read "Prior" because you can tell if a coin was encapsulated by PCGS before then just by looking at the insert, and it seems the consensus is that more than four years is safe. >>
I think this is an excellent idea and should be implemented for all copper coins graded after 1/1/2010. I don't know about PCGS going back and dating prior graded coins because of the labor costs. This "Date graded" could be added to the information you get when you enter a coin number in the "verify cert" box.
Something like this would appear,
COIN INFORMATION Cert Verification #: 13822969 Date graded: 1/7/2010 (new line added in the cert. verify information) PCGS Coin #: 3304 Date, mintmark: 1909 Denomination: 1C Variety: Lincoln Minor Variety: Mint Error: Pedigree: Country: The United States of America Grade: PR66RB Mintage: 2,198 PCGS Price GuideSM Value: $3,500
Brian Wagner Rare Coins, Specializing in PCGS graded, Shield, Liberty and Buffalo Nickels varieties.
<< <i>It should be interesting to watch the lawsuits unfold. I don't know how a company can both extend and charge for a guarantee, reneg, and then expect any other outcome. You can't expect to build a stable platform, kick the legs out of under it, and expect things not to break.
Now if they were actually worried about liability, they would have created a slightly different holder - a label change, perhaps - and suspended the guarantee on new holdered coins. It would have been effective in minimising ongoing risk and the honourable thing to do.
<< <i> If Ford or GM gave you a 50K mile guarantee and some clown poured salt in your gas tank what do you think they would do,replace your engine ? >>
I would expect they live up to their guarantee. In the case you sited, it would be disclaimed under "damage due to misuse" or similar terms in the warranty, and it is worth noting that no such words are in the PCGS guarantee (including terms such as "subject to change at any time" which are also conspicuously absent from the PCGS guarantee).
What I would NOT expect them to do is say, "we guarantee your transmission for the life of the vehicle", then twenty years later cancel those terms because they can't tell if a fluid change caused the problem rather than a manufacturing defect. Like I said above, that would be a class action suit, and barring any wiggle-room terms in the agreement, the car company would lose.
Spin it any way you want it, the bottom line is that PCGS took our money under the premise of a lifetime guarantee, and now they are going back on their word.
Given PCGS's only value is the value of their word, what does that say about PCGS?
You tell me....Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>Steve - The two examples of large payouts for red Copper mentioned by PCGS were :
1900 ? Indian cent graded Proof 69 red - This coin was owned by a dealer and was graded in 1989. The fact that PCGS paid the dealer $50,000 for this coin was a BIG mistake IMHO. NO ONE would have paid 50K for this coin and the dealer certainly never paid anything remotely close to this amount .
The infamous 1969 S DDO graded ms 65 red in 1989 that also had a finger print on the coin when it came to a Bowers and Merena auction in 1992. Everyone graded the coin ms 64 R/B and it brought $17,500. In 2004 Sam Lukes recommended that the collector who won the coin in 1992 submit the coin to PCGS under guaranteed submission. PCGS paid this collector $75,000 or $80,000 for the coin and then put it in the FUN 2005 auction where it only brought $36,000.
Stewart >>
If thats all the "big ones" then I think PCGS is making a mistake getting rid of the guarantee. Do they have insurance to back up their guarantee? >>
I will wager that they self-insure this liability, nor is that all of the "big ones" (see below)...Mike
p.s. I can recall a certain MS 70 Memorial Lincoln that developed a spot, and I seem to recall the owner being compensated.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
Here's my take on "Red Copper and Me". Bottom line is that the loss of the guarantee is going to hurt the market for red coins in PCGS holders. The guarantee gave the market confidence. The average collector could buy these coins and feel comfortable that he/she wasn't getting burned. That is no longer the case. My feeling is that this is going to cost red copper collectors a lot of money. I would not be shocked to see a class action suit pop up regarding this issue.
I WOULD ADVISE THAT AFTER 1/1/10 ALL COPPER COINS SHOULD BE BOUGHT ONLY SIGHT SEEN !
I would also suggest collectors/investors buy only through someone they trust and who can be trusted.
Stewart
Jack the Knife - I think it is better to say the market for Red copper will Change after 1/1/10. The market also changed after Jack Lee passed away. We also remember the Tom and Gerry show. My true belief is the copper market will become stronger than ever after some time. As a trauma doctor you should be ale to relate to healing.
It has occurred to me after reviewing MS RD copper current prices at FUN that the values are holding up, in spite of the loss of the guarantee.
Seems like there are some very vocal opponents of PCGS' decision, but if their cries are drowned out by high auction bids, it might as well be for naught.
My prediction: I think coins will still sell for what they're worth, and all you guys with "dogs in the fight" will come out smelling like roses.
Matt, most of the collectors of the highest grade red copper do not have to sell them, and won't run scared to the auction houses to voluntarily take a bath. I suspect you will see some "pre" January 1, 2010 reserves set for the FUN auction on lesser coins that will not sell. The good coins will still bring strong prices. Some good deals may be had for the savvy grader, whether collector or dealer.
"I don't think this new policy is widely known yet. 1 auction especially the first one after the new policy change will not be a good measurement. " I would venture to guess that people who bid on high grade Red Lincolns in auctions know about the guarantee issue. Joe sixpack may not know but they do.
It makes sense to add that my consideration for my observation was based primarily on the cream of the crop offerings that I like to watch. I have no real idea how things are going for non eye-appealing RD coins.
Comments
<< <i>... 1969 S DDO graded ms 65 red ... the collector who won the coin in 1992 submit the coin to PCGS under guaranteed submission. PCGS paid this collector $75,000 or $80,000 for the coin and then put it in the FUN 2005 auction where it only brought $36,000.
Stewart >>
Am I understanding this correctly? PCGS paid out under the guarantee and then returned the coin to the market in the same holder without downgrading it??
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
Now if they were actually worried about liability, they would have created a slightly different holder - a label change, perhaps - and suspended the guarantee on new holdered coins. It would have been effective in minimising ongoing risk and the honourable thing to do.
Oh, well. Knees jerk. Who woulda thunk it?
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
<< <i>Most of my PCGS slabs are the blue ones with the series and coin number on the label. They stopped issuing them in 2005 or 2006.
Steve
<< <i>Steve,
If I am correct I think the 7 digit blue label holders ended around 2/2002? Then the holder type you mention went from 2002 until 2006. Seems like 4 years would give the coins enough time in the holder to prove they are stable.
Brian Wagner >>
In the immanent, upcoming reality of a "no-more-PCGS-copper-color-guarantee" new world, it would be useful if PCGS would put a "look-up" box on its website where one could type in a cert. number and get back the date that the coin was encapsulated. If a coin can be expected to show tamperng within a year of its being slabbed that would be very helpful. If the coin was slabbed before 2006 the look-up result could read "Prior" because you can tell if a coin was encapsulated by PCGS before then just by looking at the insert, and it seems the consensus is that more than four years is safe.
I am not kidding,
G99G
I collect 20-slab, blue plastic PCGS coin boxes. To me, every empty box is like a beating heart
People come up sometimes, and ask me, G99G, are you kidding? And I answer them no, I am NOT KIDDING.
Every empty box?
C'mon!
<< <i>
<< <i>Most of my PCGS slabs are the blue ones with the series and coin number on the label. They stopped issuing them in 2005 or 2006.
Steve
<< <i>Steve,
If I am correct I think the 7 digit blue label holders ended around 2/2002? Then the holder type you mention went from 2002 until 2006. Seems like 4 years would give the coins enough time in the holder to prove they are stable.
Brian Wagner >>
In the immanent, upcoming reality of a "no-more-PCGS-copper-color-guarantee" new world, it would be useful if PCGS would put a "look-up" box on its website where one could type in a cert. number and get back the date that the coin was encapsulated. If a coin can be expected to show tamperng within a year of its being slabbed that would be very helpful. If the coin was slabbed before 2006 the look-up result could read "Prior" because you can tell if a coin was encapsulated by PCGS before then just by looking at the insert, and it seems the consensus is that more than four years is safe. >>
I think this is an excellent idea and should be implemented for all copper coins graded after 1/1/2010. I don't know about PCGS going back and dating prior graded coins because of the labor costs. This "Date graded" could be added to the information you get when you enter a coin number in the "verify cert" box.
Something like this would appear,
COIN INFORMATION
Cert Verification #: 13822969
Date graded: 1/7/2010 (new line added in the cert. verify information)
PCGS Coin #: 3304
Date, mintmark: 1909
Denomination: 1C
Variety: Lincoln
Minor Variety:
Mint Error:
Pedigree:
Country: The United States of America
Grade: PR66RB
Mintage: 2,198
PCGS Price GuideSM Value: $3,500
<< <i>It should be interesting to watch the lawsuits unfold. I don't know how a company can both extend and charge for a guarantee, reneg, and then expect any other outcome. You can't expect to build a stable platform, kick the legs out of under it, and expect things not to break.
Now if they were actually worried about liability, they would have created a slightly different holder - a label change, perhaps - and suspended the guarantee on new holdered coins. It would have been effective in minimising ongoing risk and the honourable thing to do.
Oh, well. Knees jerk. Who woulda thunk it? >>
BBE,
Well said.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
It is certainly best for those collectors that do not know what they are doing and, now due to the lack of a guaranty, choose not to collect copper.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>
If Ford or GM gave you a 50K mile guarantee and some clown poured salt in your gas tank what do you think they would do,replace your engine ?
>>
I would expect they live up to their guarantee. In the case you sited, it would be disclaimed under "damage due to misuse" or similar terms in the warranty, and it is worth noting that no such words are in the PCGS guarantee (including terms such as "subject to change at any time" which are also conspicuously absent from the PCGS guarantee).
What I would NOT expect them to do is say, "we guarantee your transmission for the life of the vehicle", then twenty years later cancel those terms because they can't tell if a fluid change caused the problem rather than a manufacturing defect. Like I said above, that would be a class action suit, and barring any wiggle-room terms in the agreement, the car company would lose.
Spin it any way you want it, the bottom line is that PCGS took our money under the premise of a lifetime guarantee, and now they are going back on their word.
Given PCGS's only value is the value of their word, what does that say about PCGS?
You tell me....Mike
<< <i>
<< <i>Steve - The two examples of large payouts for red Copper mentioned by PCGS were :
1900 ? Indian cent graded Proof 69 red - This coin was owned by a dealer and was graded in 1989. The fact that PCGS paid the dealer $50,000 for this coin was a BIG mistake IMHO. NO ONE would have paid 50K for this coin and the dealer certainly never paid anything remotely close to this amount .
The infamous 1969 S DDO graded ms 65 red in 1989 that also had a finger print on the coin when it came to a Bowers and Merena auction in 1992. Everyone graded the coin ms 64 R/B and it brought
$17,500. In 2004 Sam Lukes recommended that the collector who won the coin in 1992 submit the coin to PCGS under guaranteed submission. PCGS paid this collector $75,000 or $80,000 for the coin and then put it in the FUN 2005 auction where it only brought $36,000.
Stewart >>
If thats all the "big ones" then I think PCGS is making a mistake getting rid of the guarantee. Do they have insurance to back up their guarantee? >>
I will wager that they self-insure this liability, nor is that all of the "big ones" (see below)...Mike
p.s. I can recall a certain MS 70 Memorial Lincoln that developed a spot, and I seem to recall the owner being compensated.
MIKE IN FLORIDA - THE PROOF 70 1963 LINCOLN CENT WAS BOUGHT OUT OF AUCTION BY PCGS FOR ALMOST 40K.
YOU ARE CORRECT. THEY ARE SELF INSURED BUT PCGS IS A PUBLICALLY TRADED COMPANY.
STEWART
Here's my take on "Red Copper and Me". Bottom line is that the loss of the guarantee is going to hurt the market for red coins in PCGS holders. The guarantee gave the market confidence. The average collector could buy these coins and feel comfortable that he/she wasn't getting burned. That is no longer the case. My feeling is that this is going to cost red copper collectors a lot of money. I would not be shocked to see a class action suit pop up regarding this issue.
Jack
I WOULD ADVISE THAT AFTER 1/1/10 ALL COPPER COINS SHOULD BE BOUGHT ONLY SIGHT SEEN !
I would also suggest collectors/investors buy only through someone they trust and who can be trusted.
Stewart
Jack the Knife - I think it is better to say the market for Red copper will Change after 1/1/10. The market also changed after Jack Lee passed away. We also remember the Tom and Gerry show. My true belief is the copper market will become stronger than ever after some time. As a trauma doctor you should be ale to relate to healing.
Seems like there are some very vocal opponents of PCGS' decision, but if their cries are drowned out by high auction bids, it might as well be for naught.
My prediction: I think coins will still sell for what they're worth, and all you guys with "dogs in the fight" will come out smelling like roses.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
As a trauma doctor you should be ale to relate to healing.
Yes, but my patients heal much better after I do some "doctoring"
...I couldn't help myself
Jack
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes