<< <i>No, I dont think any polishing is involved here. This is "Prooflike", which has mirror fields and cameo frost on the devices. This pic shows the cameo frost really nice, on the wreath. I dont think you can clean, or polish a coin like this and retain the cameo. >>
I believe the poster was talking about polishing of the die, not the coin. More specifically, when a die is polished/lapped in the middle of its life, the fields become mirrored, leaving the luster on the devices (i.e. cameo).
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
What looks to be signs of wiping apparent in the image provided by Darktone features lines in a noticeably different direction and pattern than the mint made die polish lines you referenced in the image above. And if the one below is indeed an image of your coin, I can't fathom that it hasn't been wiped on the reverse.
What looks to be signs of wiping apparent in the image provided by Darktone features lines in a noticeably different direction and pattern than the mint made die polish lines you referenced in the image above. And if the one below is indeed an image of your coin, I can't fathom that it hasn't been wiped on the reverse.
See here:
>>
Mark, While the photo does appear to be evidence of a wiping, isn't it also possible that the die was repolished (i.e. in a different state) than the pics above? Given the coin only struck 5k specimens, not sure if polishing multiple times was done, but wanted to raise the question.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
What looks to be signs of wiping apparent in the image provided by Darktone features lines in a noticeably different direction and pattern than the mint made die polish lines you referenced in the image above. And if the one below is indeed an image of your coin, I can't fathom that it hasn't been wiped on the reverse.
See here:
>>
Mark, While the photo does appear to be evidence of a wiping, isn't it also possible that the die was repolished (i.e. in a different state) than the pics above? Given the coin only struck 5k specimens, not sure if polishing multiple times was done, but wanted to raise the question. >>
Mike, I don't know the answer to your question. But even if the die was re-polished, I don't think that's what I'm seeing in the image.
<< <i>some pretty poor pictures....but its only an iPhone. This looks REALLY nice in hand! seriously, it reallllly does. I give it a 64 very heavy die clashing, the wreath is impressed onto the obverse, thats the lines behind the headress, LIBERTY is in an arc below the date.
>>
That's a sweet coin Ray!! Proof like for sure, at least from the pics.. Hope it all works out for you....Joe
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Why, in your images, am I not seeing what looks to be the wiping that I see in the one provided by Darktone? Is it a different coin? Can you show us a good/clear image of the entire reverse? Thanks.
I find all this exceptionally entertaining. In fact Ive missed my usual lunch of a Dunkin Donuts multigrain bagel and medium coffee with a little bit of cream and one splenda. I think Dave Bowers pegged it, and if you note the in the macro I posted of the central part of the coin, several of these lines match up exactly with his image in the book. Of note are the lines that run through the first L in Dollar. Also at the base of the 1, the lines are exactly the same for instance.
You know we are nit picking a century and half old very small soft coin with a microscope. Im just quite happy to have 1 of perhaps 150 or so surviving coins to add to my collection. Sufficent for me that its in a great condition, regardless of the plastic it resides in at this point in history.
Looks like some serious semicircular hairlines on the reverse.
Ebay's stupid rules would have prohibited the seller from writing the type of description that would have actually been honest and protected potential buyers.
Resides in a slab (violation) from NNC (violation) which optimistically graded (violation) it MS64 (violation). While the coin has a pleasing overall apprearance, some rather serious hairlines on the reverse would likely preclude PCGS (violation) or NGC (violation) from grading this coin in a problem-free holder. Estimate $300 (violation)
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
Out of curiosity, does anyone studying these pictures think there's any chance the coin is not genuine? I would think the die polish lines and other details like the frost inside the DO of DOLLAR would be very hard to mimic even on a cast counterfeit. Personally, I would be ecstatic even if the coin wound up in a "Genuine UNC Details" NCS holder, since my biggest fear would be buying a counterfeit. If the coin is real it's a tremendous rip regardless of how it grades.
Sean Reynolds
Incomplete planchets wanted, especially Lincoln Cents & type coins.
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Yup.....you know trying to complete the gold dollar series is no easy task, either collecting wise, or financially. Harry Bass done it with top grade coins, yet he had some of a lesser grade than what Ive got, for some years. He had unlimited funds...as well as a super long time frame. At the time of his passing, he had over 650 specimens. While Im certainly not in any way in his league, I do hope to complete the 80+ series date and mint mark. Some concessions MUST be made. My 56 D is a genuine holder, my 57S has had a cleaning.....and my 63 is in an IGC holder with a die lamination. But, in my mind, these are still examples of the date and mint mark in every sense of the word, and 'fill the slot'. This year, 1867, is very very thin on the ground. The last two heritage sold, were higher grade and went for $12K. Theres no way Im putting that much $ into a single coin in this series *except for the 61D*, in light of the goal to complete the entire date/mm run.
My coins all tell their story. The 60 S...thats lucky to grade VF. It tells the story of a hard life in circulation. The 49 No L, a favorite, thats a pretty little MS63, its story is one of being saved as a keepsake from day one.
I really make no apologies for any of the coins Ive added to the set, and now at 44% complete, the next one to come in is an 1870 S ...and yes, its in PCGS plastic. She will have her debut in a few days. My plan was to concentrate on the more difficult coins at first, and leave the common ones to be purchased at any time. For instance, I still dont have an 1852 or an 1874.....though could certainly get one at any time. This 1867.....thats the first example Ive seen for sale in a year, and by FAR the best available at that price. If it has a few hairlines, meh.....not too important. After all...you need a blooming microscope to see them, in hand its just a gleaming prooflike coin with cameo frost.
So Im delighted to be able to provide you guys with this bit of entertainment, and without me...Im sure you wouldnt know half as much about Gold Dollars! I know that a few on this forum have begun to work the series, and I hope that many more discover their unique beauty and collectability. Life is short...enjoy the ride!
<< <i>So Im delighted to be able to provide you guys with this bit of entertainment, and without me...Im sure you wouldnt know half as much about Gold Dollars! I know that a few on this forum have begun to work the series, and I hope that many more discover their unique beauty and collectability. Life is short...enjoy the ride! >>
Well stated Ambro. I still thnk it will slab as MS, at least 62, but even if it doesn't it is a great deal at $499 and I will pay you that for it anytime. If you guys think there are no cleaned or wiped coins in PCGS/NGC slabs I have a few to show you.
ambro51 I admire your willingness to show many here that there is another way to collect (buying less than stellar, buying imperfect, heck, even buying in other "bottom feeder" graded slabs) all for the sake to “COLLECT” a series. Since there are no rules to collecting I am pleased you chose a path that meets YOUR needs. Enjoy it. I am with you all the way. I think Bass did have one big disadvantage – the internet.
WS
Proud recipient of the coveted PCGS Forum "You Suck" Award Thursday July 19, 2007 11:33 PM and December 30th, 2011 at 8:50 PM.
Just understand that 90 percent of my coins are in either NGC or PCGS slabs......plus a few anacs specimens which could easily be 'replasticed' if I choose. In this day and age...the best coins you find will be TPG slabbed, make no doubt about it. But, you gotta be realistic with collecting and understand your methods and goals.
Learn your series, understand your coins, buy the books, listen to others who know MORE than you do........and be confident enough to take the comments of those who know less with a grain of salt and a wink. Everyone can be an expert in any field they choose. Ask me about wet plate photography....I can tell you just about anything. Ask me about Hunting Elk...............uhhhhhhh?
Having finally "understood" the series, I feel confident in purchases now. But, Id never suggest ANYONE start buying up raw coins because the dangers are huge. Back in the day, before slabs, you had to buy raw because there was really no other way to do it. You stood a much better chance of NOT getting burned in a coin than you do today, the law of averages were on your side. Today....not so.
Thank you - that looks mostly like die polish and not wiping to me , (though I am surprised that your images are so different from Darktone's posting).
Its been so long since I used that camera I forgot the techinque is to take the front lens from a Darlot brass stereo lens, reverse it, and tape it to the front of the DSLR main lens. "Frankencamera".
All I can say is that this holder is not the cleanest thing, a different plastic from the pcgs and especially the ngc holders. Camera depth of field plays tricks with images, a long shot will allow the plastic to photograph as well as the coin, but a short shot with a stronger lens puts the depth of field plane on the coin surface itself.
Funny though, those lines in the photo look like someone scraped the coin with a brick, but in hand, it appears like a mirror.
I finally got around to doing a PCGS submission of three gold dollars. One is the 1867 in this thread....and YES, she did indeed grade. At MS62....hmmmmm, could have been a 63 but I guess it may take another attempt. But, she got rid of that funky NNC slab and now is 'bonafide' This brings the total PCGS population for the 1867 gold dollar to 57 coins...which is only three more than the 1861-D, and the 8th lowest population in the series. This coin went unsold on ebay for $499.....and now, in the new 'bonafide' plastic, books at $1600. Thats a Home Run, in my book
Soon after I 'discovered' the series, I took a ride down to the local B&M....and seen an 1856 upright 5 in the case. As raw as they come, and from a B&M no less! And, Yes, she did grade also!! The 2X2 was marked AU, and the PCGS graders agreed, and gave her the somewhat unusual grade of AU53. In not complaining!
And though we harp on good old Great Southern (Cleaned) Coins.....my single purchase from them, an 1861, sold as Uncirculated...Came back much to my delight pretty darn close, PCGS graded her an AU55!
Congrats on the holdering! Goes to show that you can't always judge a coin by its slab..
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Without a doubt...undergraded. I can see the grader now...in his best Ahhhhnold imitation, holding the coin up, with a big smirk, and saying "Ahhhl Bee Bak"
Yes, she may be back, under the Secure+ plan. Now that I know they realize the die finish lines on the reverse are NOT harsh cleaning....I had my doubts on that since really...they do NOT see this date coin very often at all.
Comments
<< <i>No, I dont think any polishing is involved here. This is "Prooflike", which has mirror fields and cameo frost on the devices. This pic shows the cameo frost really nice, on the wreath. I dont think you can clean, or polish a coin like this and retain the cameo. >>
I believe the poster was talking about polishing of the die, not the coin. More specifically, when a die is polished/lapped in the middle of its life, the fields become mirrored, leaving the luster on the devices (i.e. cameo).
<< <i>
What looks to be signs of wiping apparent in the image provided by Darktone features lines in a noticeably different direction and pattern than the mint made die polish lines you referenced in the image above. And if the one below is indeed an image of your coin, I can't fathom that it hasn't been wiped on the reverse.
See here:
<< <i>
<< <i>
What looks to be signs of wiping apparent in the image provided by Darktone features lines in a noticeably different direction and pattern than the mint made die polish lines you referenced in the image above. And if the one below is indeed an image of your coin, I can't fathom that it hasn't been wiped on the reverse.
See here:
Mark, While the photo does appear to be evidence of a wiping, isn't it also possible that the die was repolished (i.e. in a different state) than the pics above? Given the coin only struck 5k specimens, not sure if polishing multiple times was done, but wanted to raise the question.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
What looks to be signs of wiping apparent in the image provided by Darktone features lines in a noticeably different direction and pattern than the mint made die polish lines you referenced in the image above. And if the one below is indeed an image of your coin, I can't fathom that it hasn't been wiped on the reverse.
See here:
Mark, While the photo does appear to be evidence of a wiping, isn't it also possible that the die was repolished (i.e. in a different state) than the pics above? Given the coin only struck 5k specimens, not sure if polishing multiple times was done, but wanted to raise the question. >>
Mike, I don't know the answer to your question. But even if the die was re-polished, I don't think that's what I'm seeing in the image.
<< <i>some pretty poor pictures....but its only an iPhone. This looks REALLY nice in hand! seriously, it reallllly does. I give it a 64 very heavy die clashing, the wreath is impressed onto the obverse, thats the lines behind the headress, LIBERTY is in an arc below the date.
That's a sweet coin Ray!! Proof like for sure, at least from the pics.. Hope it all works out for you....Joe
<< <i>
Why, in your images, am I not seeing what looks to be the wiping that I see in the one provided by Darktone? Is it a different coin? Can you show us a good/clear image of the entire reverse? Thanks.
K
I think Dave Bowers pegged it, and if you note the in the macro I posted of the central part of the coin, several of these lines match up exactly with his image in the book. Of note are the lines that run through the first L in Dollar. Also at the base of the 1, the lines are exactly the same for instance.
You know we are nit picking a century and half old very small soft coin with a microscope. Im just quite happy to have 1 of perhaps 150 or so surviving coins to add to my collection. Sufficent for me that its in a great condition, regardless of the plastic it resides in at this point in history.
<< <i>
Looks to me like the OPs coin is a later state of the same coin with some die polish remaining (along with a few hairline/wiping marks).
Ebay's stupid rules would have prohibited the seller from writing the type of description that would have actually been honest and protected potential buyers.
Resides in a slab (violation) from NNC (violation) which optimistically graded (violation) it MS64 (violation). While the coin has a pleasing overall apprearance, some
rather serious hairlines on the reverse would likely preclude PCGS (violation) or NGC (violation) from grading this coin in a problem-free holder. Estimate $300 (violation)
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Empty Nest Collection
heres a good view of the LIBERTY clash, Roger.
It shows just how easy it is to hide, or emphasize any particular feature with subtle lighting changes.
Yes, I think some of what I am seeing on the reverse is a wipe and not die polish. Good deal all the same! Heck of a year.
My coins all tell their story. The 60 S...thats lucky to grade VF. It tells the story of a hard life in circulation. The 49 No L, a favorite, thats a pretty little MS63, its story is one of being saved as a keepsake from day one.
I really make no apologies for any of the coins Ive added to the set, and now at 44% complete, the next one to come in is an 1870 S ...and yes, its in PCGS plastic. She will have her debut in a few days. My plan was to concentrate on the more difficult coins at first, and leave the common ones to be purchased at any time. For instance, I still dont have an 1852 or an 1874.....though could certainly get one at any time. This 1867.....thats the first example Ive seen for sale in a year, and by FAR the best available at that price. If it has a few hairlines, meh.....not too important. After all...you need a blooming microscope to see them, in hand its just a gleaming prooflike coin with cameo frost.
So Im delighted to be able to provide you guys with this bit of entertainment, and without me...Im sure you wouldnt know half as much about Gold Dollars! I know that a few on this forum have begun to work the series, and I hope that many more discover their unique beauty and collectability. Life is short...enjoy the ride!
<< <i>So Im delighted to be able to provide you guys with this bit of entertainment, and without me...Im sure you wouldnt know half as much about Gold Dollars! I know that a few on this forum have begun to work the series, and I hope that many more discover their unique beauty and collectability. Life is short...enjoy the ride! >>
Great outlook Ambro
WS
Learn your series, understand your coins, buy the books, listen to others who know MORE than you do........and be confident enough to take the comments of those who know less with a grain of salt and a wink. Everyone can be an expert in any field they choose. Ask me about wet plate photography....I can tell you just about anything. Ask me about Hunting Elk...............uhhhhhhh?
Having finally "understood" the series, I feel confident in purchases now. But, Id never suggest ANYONE start buying up raw coins because the dangers are huge. Back in the day, before slabs, you had to buy raw because there was really no other way to do it. You stood a much better chance of NOT getting burned in a coin than you do today, the law of averages were on your side. Today....not so.
I am still amazed how all of these different images are the same coin.
All I can say is that this holder is not the cleanest thing, a different plastic from the pcgs and especially the ngc holders. Camera depth of field plays tricks with images, a long shot will allow the plastic to photograph as well as the coin, but a short shot with a stronger lens puts the depth of field plane on the coin surface itself.
Funny though, those lines in the photo look like someone scraped the coin with a brick, but in hand, it appears like a mirror.
Soon after I 'discovered' the series, I took a ride down to the local B&M....and seen an 1856 upright 5 in the case. As raw as they come, and from a B&M no less! And, Yes, she did grade also!! The 2X2 was marked AU, and the PCGS graders agreed, and gave her the somewhat unusual grade of AU53. In not complaining!
And though we harp on good old Great Southern (Cleaned) Coins.....my single purchase from them, an 1861, sold as Uncirculated...Came back much to my delight pretty darn close, PCGS graded her an AU55!
So...I'm a Happy Camper!!
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Congrats, ambro51. This also helps sharpen all of our grading eyes as well.
Yes, she may be back, under the Secure+ plan. Now that I know they realize the die finish lines on the reverse are NOT harsh cleaning....I had my doubts on that since really...they do NOT see this date coin very often at all.
Congrats on the coin. Love the clashed LIBERTY.
Very cool...
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne