Broadstruck ... you have way too much time on your hands ... where do you find all these crazy pics
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>Bottom line... there are some really cool people involved in this hobby... on ALL sides of the table... and there are some real pills, as well... sorta just like life... whatya know about that? >>
Hi Larry,
Great post, it is nice to hear life from both sides of the table. -planchet
Larry - What's your table number at FUN? I need some space to spread out a couple three-ringed binders and some laminated sheets with proprietary info on variety identification. And, most of all, I need someone to talk to about my binders and laminated sheets.
I must say that this collector-bashing thread is more enjoyable than most dealer-bashing threads. I think that part of the reason is that Larry obviously does not take him self too seriously (the way most bashers tend to do).
<< <i>First and foremost --- All these threads that pop up in many variations to gripe about some caricature concept of the evil, smelly and rude coin dealers Hey... a few of my very good friends happen to be coin dealers... there are a few nice ones in this world...
Same goes for coin collectors... I know a few and even like a good number of them
Yet it would be a real eye opener if coin collectors could experience the "business" of coins from the dealers perspective... some coin collectors can be real pieces of work, to say the least...
Example --- person spends a half hour looking for "the perfect coin"... finds one... then does their best to talk it down to bid or close to it... THEN, after they get a very nice price, turn around and pull out some of their "reject" coins and expect the dealer to happily trade for these problem coins AT EVEN MONEY.... sorry... I won't tell ya what to do with a rope but we will not have a deal and I will be at least a bit peeved by all the wasted time...
Example --- During the busiest time of the show, the "very knowledeable collector" who once bought a coin from you about three years ago (after taking several hours, four shows and three phone calls to decide to pull the trigger and now thinks they "own" you ... yes I exaggerate a little) just has to tell you ALL ABOUT the finer variations of die charcteristics of the 1838 dime in regards to the date/dentil locations and the reeding marks and how they vary from the 1842 variety such and such and how the die crack on his 1852 or whatever quarter is so cool and has not been seen as far as he knows and did I show you the recent half dollar that I bought from so and so and I'm really wondering if I should consider a coin in an ANACS holder and PCGS is the best (but he has rejected at least 50 PCGS coins over the past year... that you know of ).... yada yada yada and my face is about to crack from the forced smile and I can see numerous potential coin buyers just walking by so as to not interrupt this numismatically important moment... get the idea????
Folks... busy coin shows are primarily mini-marathons for coin business to take place... a small window of opportunity... coin CLUBS, on the other hand, can be places to discuss the finer points of numismatics... or maybe coin forums such as this one...
Example --- The collector with four loupes... a pile of disarrayed paperwork (with the obligatory grey sheet from last year)... who wants to look thru ALL your wares and just HAS TO spread everything in every direction and then "discovers" the most amazing coin in your junk box that he examines feverishly for what seems an eternity and wants to ask "what is that spot behind Liberty's head....is that toning or corrosion?... and you look at the coin marked $5 and say "it is a spot" ... and they ask if you can sell it for $3... and all the while you have tried to figure out a way to ask them to kindly "find a rope" ...but have restrained yourself for fear of ending up the butt of some forum thread complaining about rude dealers... and many more potential "customers" have walked on by...
Example --- Folks who grade with 10x or higher magnification (and of course, never find anything they like)
Example --- Folks who call PCGS "pgc" or some variation... but insist they only like that company and then reject 100 PCGS coins as over-graded, because they expect a 65 label to have a 67 coin in it... or something...
Final example (for now ) --- No matter how many examples of any given coin I may have at any given time at any given show... I will not have the date and/or grade and/or "look" that the collector is looking for... "Have you got any NGC 1883-CC Morgans?" "Why yes... I have these four examples... a 62, a 63PL, a 65 and a 65 with a sticker " ... "oh, I was looking for a 64" ... or "That is the exact coin in the exact holder at the exact grade that I was looking for... BUT... it has a small spot of toning by the date (that I can only see with my loupe) and there is that little mark on the eagles breast and on and on and on..."
Bottom line... there are some really cool people involved in this hobby... on ALL sides of the table... and there are some real pills, as well... sorta just like life... whatya know about that?
(edited to add --- Now I am going to pour myself another cup of coffee... see ya all later ) >>
While I got a good chuckle out of your post, please remember that collectors pay dealers' salary, not the other way around. As salesman, it is wise of us to remember this.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>While I got a good chuckle out of your post, please remember that collectors pay dealers' salary, not the other way around. As salesman, it is wise of us to remember this. >>
Of course dealers don't pay collectors' salaries. They do, however, do the legwork to find and make available the coins that collectors want.
I was talking to a dealer the other day who had just flown home after making offers on collections he inspected in two different states. With no guarantee that he'll actually be able to buy the coins. How many collectors are willing to pay that price in order to find the coins they're interested in? Very few, I'd suppose.
Buyer or seller, it's a voluntary transaction- each party has something the other values more.
Compared to other traditional business that provide a needed good or service. The coin business provides nothing essential to daily commerce. It is a convenience service that skims from the collector community
<< <i>Larry - What's your table number at FUN? I need some space to spread out a couple three-ringed binders and some laminated sheets with proprietary info on variety identification. And, most of all, I need someone to talk to about my binders and laminated sheets.
>>
I may be a fun guy but I don't "do" FUN... and now I think that's a good thing
...not to say I would not enjoy meeting you some day and talking about coins with you (but I have absolutely no desire to get into your sheets ) ...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>I was talking to a dealer the other day who had just flown home after making offers on collections he inspected in two different states. With no guarantee that he'll actually be able to buy the coins. How many collectors are willing to pay that price in order to find the coins they're interested in? Very few, I'd suppose. >>
Profit is a strong motivator.
That said, as a seller I take trips to customers all the time. Some end up in business and some do not. It's called the cost of doing business. I'm happy to do it and it doesn't make me feel superior to the people I sell to. Why should coin dealers be any different?
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>That said, as a seller, I take trips to customers all the time. Some end up in business, and some do not. It's called the cost of doing business, and I'm happy to do it and it doesn't make me feel superior to the people I sell to. Why should coin sellers be any different? >>
I didn't intend to give the impression that dealers were superior due to what they do. If you somehow got that idea from what I wrote, I'm sorry.
<< <i>That said, as a seller, I take trips to customers all the time. Some end up in business, and some do not. It's called the cost of doing business, and I'm happy to do it and it doesn't make me feel superior to the people I sell to. Why should coin sellers be any different? >>
I didn't intend to give the impression that dealers were superior due to what they do. If you somehow got that idea from what I wrote, I'm sorry. >>
I realize that, and my comment wasn't necessarily directed at you.
I guess I just don't understand the sense of entitlement for being, essentially, an educated middle-man.
If I treated my customers the way that I've been treated at coin shows and at coin shops, I would get laughed at.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>I guess I just don't understand the sense of entitlement for being, essentially, an educated middle-man. >>
Not all dealers feel that way, and just a short time on this forum would provide all the proof one needs that collectors are not exactly amateurs when it comes to exhibiting a sense of entitlement. .
<< <i>If I treated my customers the way that I've been treated at coin shows and at coin shops, I would get laughed at. >>
Sure, some dealers are rude. So are some collectors. As are, I'm pretty confident, some people who are neither collectors or dealers.
While I got a good chuckle out of your post, please remember that collectors pay dealers' salary, not the other way around. As salesman, it is wise of us to remember this.
It is often the other way around. Many dealers who set up at shows routinely do the vast majority of their business with other dealers/wholesalers....and not by choice but it's the only way that works. Those buying dealers know their market inside and out and can make instant decisions, often paying far more than collectors would think of paying at that precise moment. Those same collectors will pass on those very coins at their local/regional shows yet happily fork over another 10-30% when the same coin reappears in their favorite national retailer's price list. Ultimately, all these coins tend to gravitate towards the biggest retailers where they ultimately find longer term homes. Most collectors feel comfort in knowing they bought from the biggest/best even if it was at an appreciable mark-up.
<< <i>While I got a good chuckle out of your post, please remember that collectors pay dealers' salary, not the other way around. As salesman, it is wise of us to remember this.
It is often the other way around. Many dealers who set up at shows routinely do the vast majority of their business with other dealers/wholesalers....and not by choice but it's the only way that works. Those buying dealers know their market inside and out and can make instant decisions, often paying far more than collectors would think of paying at that precise moment. Those same collectors will pass on those very coins at their local/regional shows yet happily fork over another 10-30% when the same coin reappears in their favorite national retailer's price list. Ultimately, all these coins tend to gravitate towards the biggest retailers where they ultimately find longer term homes. Most collectors feel comfort in knowing they bought from the biggest/best even if it was at an appreciable mark-up.
roadrunner >>
I haven't had a drink in years... but I must raise a glass to that mouthful, Roadrunner
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
dealer bashing , collector bashing , is common not only at shows , but also at B&M shops . Whichever side of the table one is on , (and many of us have been on both sides) it is the 'Nature of the Beast' and not likely to change soon
Hi John -- Unfortunately, I just learned that Larry won't be at FUN. So . . . what's your table number at the show? I need some space to spread out a couple three-ringed binders and some laminated sheets with proprietary info on variety identification. And, most of all, I need someone to talk to about my binders and laminated sheets.
How about the guy who spends an hour pouring through binders of 2x2's and in the process pulls out 20 coins. All the coins are priced. He then proceeds to and negotiate the one priced at $6 for $4. The dealer says "sorry I can't do that," and the "collector" leaves in a huff leaving the pile of 2x2's.
MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
<< <i>While I got a good chuckle out of your post, please remember that collectors pay dealers' salary, not the other way around. As salesman, it is wise of us to remember this.
It is often the other way around. Many dealers who set up at shows routinely do the vast majority of their business with other dealers/wholesalers....and not by choice but it's the only way that works. Those buying dealers know their market inside and out and can make instant decisions, often paying far more than collectors would think of paying at that precise moment. Those same collectors will pass on those very coins at their local/regional shows yet happily fork over another 10-30% when the same coin reappears in their favorite national retailer's price list. Ultimately, all these coins tend to gravitate towards the biggest retailers where they ultimately find longer term homes. Most collectors feel comfort in knowing they bought from the biggest/best even if it was at an appreciable mark-up.
roadrunner >>
That's not the other way around. Said slightly differently, I've yet to have a dealer pay me when I purchase a coin from him.
I am not denying that a significant or even majority of business is dealer/dealer and dealer/wholesalers. However, in each of these transactions, there is a buyer and a seller, and without the ultimate destination, the collector, none of these would exist.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>While I got a good chuckle out of your post, please remember that collectors pay dealers' salary, not the other way around. As salesman, it is wise of us to remember this.
It is often the other way around. Many dealers who set up at shows routinely do the vast majority of their business with other dealers/wholesalers....and not by choice but it's the only way that works. Those buying dealers know their market inside and out and can make instant decisions, often paying far more than collectors would think of paying at that precise moment. Those same collectors will pass on those very coins at their local/regional shows yet happily fork over another 10-30% when the same coin reappears in their favorite national retailer's price list. Ultimately, all these coins tend to gravitate towards the biggest retailers where they ultimately find longer term homes. Most collectors feel comfort in knowing they bought from the biggest/best even if it was at an appreciable mark-up.
roadrunner >>
That's not the other way around. Said slightly differently, I've yet to have a dealer pay me when I purchase a coin from him.
I am not denying that a significant or even majority of business is dealer/dealer and dealer/wholesalers. However, in each of these transactions, there is a buyer and a seller, and without the ultimate destination, the collector, none of these would exist. >>
Hey Mike... and I mean this in the friendliest of ways...
kootchie-kootchie-koo, dude... lighten up... everything does not need to be all serious and somber... really
We're just havin' a little fun here on a snowy weekend (well, at least for some of us) ... please don't bring a bunch of serious rationality into the exchange...
like... bummer, dude...
you're, like, bringin' me down, man...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>I was talking to a dealer the other day who had just flown home after making offers on collections he inspected in two different states. With no guarantee that he'll actually be able to buy the coins. How many collectors are willing to pay that price in order to find the coins they're interested in? Very few, I'd suppose. >>
Profit is a strong motivator.
That said, as a seller I take trips to customers all the time. Some end up in business and some do not. It's called the cost of doing business. I'm happy to do it and it doesn't make me feel superior to the people I sell to. Why should coin dealers be any different? >>
I think that the point Larry was clearly trying to make is that some people are miserable to do business with. Everyone on here loves to jump all over dealers and bash them, but some people are miserable to deal with.
I work at a car dealership and, although very rare, I will absolutely throw people out of the store and refuse to do business with them. Happened the other day actually.
Bear's "Growl of Approval" award 10/09 & 3/10 | "YOU SUCK" - PonyExpress8|"F the doctors!" - homerunhall | I hate my car
I tend to be very picky about mentioning problems were putting our coins up. I mention small scratches on the holder that many dealers would not bother to mention, and price the coins accordingly. Because of this we have virtually no returns on anything we ship.
Certain people will come into the shop, pick up a coin described on the holder as "VF-20. Scratch below date," look at it with a glass and proclaim in a shocked, shocked voice "This coin has a scratch on it!" I will gently point out "Yes. That's why I wrote 'Scratch below date' on the holder." They will then say "Well, will you take less for it because of the scratch," as though the scratch were a new discovery for the both of us.
Certain other people have to grind their thumbs into every slab right over the coin. All this can do is scratch the plastic. I once had a guy do this on a slab that we had just gotten back from slabland, and had opened the package right in front of him! I grabbed the coin back from him and said "It isn't going to get any bigger!"
TD
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or in January on Amazon.
Hi Tom -- Unfortunately, I just learned that Larry won't be at FUN, and John hasn't responded to my earlier post. So . . . what's your table number at the show? I need some space to spread out a couple three-ringed binders and some laminated sheets with proprietary info on variety identification. And, most of all, I need someone to talk to about my binders and laminated sheets.
<< <i>Hi Tom -- Unfortunately, I just learned that Larry won't be at FUN, and John hasn't responded to my earlier post. So . . . what's your table number at the show? I need some space to spread out a couple three-ringed binders and some laminated sheets with proprietary info on variety identification. And, most of all, I need someone to talk to about my binders and laminated sheets.
>>
Wow... it's like deja vu all over again
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
Oh, and the regular customer who will only deal with me who walks in the door, sees me talking to another customer and walks right up and asks me a question!
TD
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or in January on Amazon.
<< <i>Hi Tom -- Unfortunately, I just learned that Larry won't be at FUN, and John hasn't responded to my earlier post. So . . . what's your table number at the show? I need some space to spread out a couple three-ringed binders and some laminated sheets with proprietary info on variety identification. And, most of all, I need someone to talk to about my binders and laminated sheets.
>>
The number is BR-549.
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or in January on Amazon.
Oh, and the regular customer who will only deal with me who walks in the door, sees me talking to another customer and walks right up and asks me a question!
As a collector only, one thing that bugs me about fellow collectors is those people who think that they are better then you are due to what you collect. It happens in all collecting realms, coins are no exception.
Instead, those people should be happy that there is less competition for what they want!
Reminds me of when I lived in the midwest and a good friend had a gun shop and did a lot of the local gun shows. Sometimes I would go along and help him out at his table. Some of these same types of things would happen there. One of the things that was really annoying was when you get the 2 old guys standing there picking up each piece, saying how they bought one years ago for such and such, or how much they used to be able to get them for, and remarking how expensive they all are now. All the while, you just know they have no plans of actually buying anything. I loved it when my friend would join in their conversation, then politely say, "hey, you see that guy over there in the blue hat, 3 aisles over?" (pointing to a particular dealer on the other side of the room) ... "No, not that one, the guy just to the left of him, yeah, see that guy?" (the 2 would-be customers are really interested in some insight he's about to give them) ... "Yeah, see that guy? Why don't you two go over there and annoy HIM for a while?"
The look on their faces was priceless as the walk away in a huff!
<< <i>Hi John -- Unfortunately, I just learned that Larry won't be at FUN. So . . . what's your table number at the show? I need some space to spread out a couple three-ringed binders and some laminated sheets with proprietary info on variety identification. And, most of all, I need someone to talk to about my binders and laminated sheets.
>>
In my experience, it's a few vest-pocket dealers who are most likely to spread stuff all over our table and block the view of would-be customers.
But whoever does it, it's not that hard to say "Please do not put your stuff on the case".
Having set up with Larry at numerous coin shows in the past, there is not a single coin dealer out there that is friendlier, more patient with collector's, negotiable on price, and willing to share knowledge with, than Larry. There's a reason why Larry has the largest crowd in front of his table at many of the local show's, including Parsippany, NJ. Did I forget, honest and a helluv a guy.
So for a collector to tick off Larry, that same stunt would probably put most dealer's, including myself, over the edge. Great post!
Example: I'm not sure if it was mentioned or not, what ticks me off is when other dealer's, or collector's, look at your slabbed coin's, make an offer, and then proceed to toss the slab back to you sliding it across your showcase and scratching the hell out of the slab. It's like an offer on a coin gives them the right to treat a coin like crap.
Reminds me of when I lived in the midwest and a good friend had a gun shop and did a lot of the local gun shows. Sometimes I would go along and help him out at his table. Some of these same types of things would happen there. One of the things that was really annoying was when you get the 2 old guys standing there picking up each piece, saying how they bought one years ago for such and such, or how much they used to be able to get them for, and remarking how expensive they all are now. All the while, you just know they have no plans of actually buying anything. I loved it when my friend would join in their conversation, then politely say, "hey, you see that guy over there in the blue hat, 3 aisles over?" (pointing to a particular dealer on the other side of the room) ... "No, not that one, the guy just to the left of him, yeah, see that guy?" (the 2 would-be customers are really interested in some insight he's about to give them) ... "Yeah, see that guy? Why don't you two go over there and annoy HIM for a while?"
The look on their faces was priceless as the walk away in a huff! >>
Yeah, when they keep talking about what they used to be able to buy stuff at, they are too cheap to buy stuff at today's prices. LOL TD
Edited to add: Sometimes, when spots and/or premiums jump up and the same guy tells me three or more times that "I could have bought this for X last week," I smile and tell them "Well then! Just come back last week!"
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or in January on Amazon.
some coin collectors can be real pieces of work, to say the least
Well, if you don't like dealing with the public, and if you don't like coin collectors, then maybe should you find another business.
I've been a businessman for over 30 years. I know that customers do not always act the way I would like them to act. I also know that they are the customer! When I've tried to understand the customer's viewpoints and motivations, then my business has generally done well.
I've never done well by disparaging my customers.
To be successful, a coin dealer should love coins and should love collectors. Of course, maybe you just want to be like used-car salesman and make a quick buck.
Larry was one of the few guys who answered my post about attending my first show in Philadelphia in November and I had the pleasure of speaking with him outside the show and again a few times at his table. First of all Larry works with vets, that says a lot about him to me, let me say he is one very affable guy amd someone I will always look up at a show to at least say hello too.
Larry, this is one of the funniest yet spot on posts I've read! I, like most dealers, have probably experienced each one of your scenarios, including keeping the big smile on our faces through it all. And even though I've only been on these boards for a little over a year, I think you're pretty accurate in that one of the things that helps keep that smile on my face (in addition to the vast amounts of patience I have gained while working with coin people) is knowing that if I happened to let my true feelings get the better of me during one of the situations like you list in the OP, I'm certain to hear about it here on the boards!
But for me, all the different characters I run into at shows - on both sides of the table - help make this business quite interesting, mostly enjoyable, but always entertaining. And it's also very true that helping new collectors, especially young new collectors, is what makes the coin business rewarding.
I too have seen all the posts about the bad behavior of dealers so thank you Larry for reminding us there are two sides!
<< <i>some coin collectors can be real pieces of work, to say the least
Well, if you don't like dealing with the public, and if you don't like coin collectors, then maybe should you find another business. >>
What, exactly, did you not understand about the deliberate use of the word "some"?
<< <i>I've been a businessman for over 30 years. I know that customers do not always act the way I would like them to act. I also know that they are the customer! When I've tried to understand the customer's viewpoints and motivations, then my business has generally done well. >>
Where in the OP or in this thread have you read anything that would imply that I do not treat any and all collectors with total respect?... I think I am allowed to think as I wish... and every now and then it is good to "vent"... and if so many collectors see fit to vent regarding their dealings with others... what? are dealers not allowed to do the same? and for the record... if you might take the time to read the entire thread, you might sense the humor intended here AND that my business is doing quite well, thank you very much (and I'm glad that yours is doing well)
<< <i>I've never done well by disparaging my customers. >>
Well, not to their face...of course... Have you NEVER commented to a co-worker or boss or family member or a friend about some difficult customer? Have you never been frustrated and shared that with anyone? Have you never found humor in some of the peculiar habits of some folks? If not... then you are either a robot or a saint...
<< <i>To be successful, a coin dealer should love coins and should love collectors. Of course, maybe you just want to be like used-car salesman and make a quick buck. >>
I am successful, thank you very much... and I do not say so to brag... I totally enjoy coins AND enjoy my time spent with other collectors (again I get the distinct impression that you did not read the entire thread) HOWEVER... I do not suffer foolishness very well and do not allow others to take advantage of me nor abuse me... and as I said previously in this thread... I do not need coins... I like them... and enjoy collecting, buying and selling them... I DO NOT need customers... but it is nice when I do have them... and so far, things have been working out pretty well... and if this hobby/business should ever become a complete drag for me, I assure you, I will gladly find another way to spend my time
I am a generally nice person who tries to offer the nicest collector coins I can find at a reasonable price... and enjoy dealing with the public FOR THE MOST PART... I have NEVER told any collector to leave my table NOR been rude to them... yet there are a few who have certainly tried my patience... such as you have, PLE... but I have responded to your concerns ( for I am sure you were not accusing me of any wrong doing...right?) and have done so in a pleasant and respectful manner...
As for the used car salesman comment... when rld14 sees that, I think you will be glad that you do not have your PM function turned on
so thanks for sharing PLE... and Happy Holidays
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
Hi Larry - just wait until next Parsippany Show - I will bring my entire numismatic library, my own overstuffed chair to take up half your table space, I may even bring a little hibachi grill in case I need a snack. Of course, I won't buy anything either.
<< <i>Hi Larry - just wait until next Parsippany Show - I will bring my entire numismatic library, my own overstuffed chair to take up half your table space, I may even bring a little hibachi grill in case I need a snack. Of course, I won't buy anything either.
Just kidding, of course. >>
You are welcome to visit anytime... whether for business or just to say hi and/or talk... heck... I'd even let you sit in my lap when you show me your want list EXCEPT folks might get the wrong idea ...Ho Ho Ho ...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
Larry is not going to be a FUN - now that is disappointing I was looking forward to meeting him in person - maybe pick through all his coins and then make some lowball offers, before introducing myself of course
<< <i>some coin collectors can be real pieces of work, to say the least
Well, if you don't like dealing with the public, and if you don't like coin collectors, then maybe should you find another business. >>
What, exactly, did you not understand about the deliberate use of the word "some"? >>
I guess "some" people just like to complain about what others have to say......
Numismatist. 54 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Author "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or in January on Amazon.
<< <i>some coin collectors can be real pieces of work, to say the least
Well, if you don't like dealing with the public, and if you don't like coin collectors, then maybe should you find another business.
I've been a businessman for over 30 years. I know that customers do not always act the way I would like them to act. I also know that they are the customer! When I've tried to understand the customer's viewpoints and motivations, then my business has generally done well.
I've never done well by disparaging my customers.
To be successful, a coin dealer should love coins and should love collectors. Of course, maybe you just want to be like used-car salesman and make a quick buck. >>
I am going to assume, that from the tone of your post that you haven't ever met Larry. I am a Used Car manager at a dealership, you have never met me. In fact, I find it hard to believe that anyone this ignorant is capable of being successful in business.
Some customers, and in my case it is the extreme minority, are simply not worth the sale. Anyone who does not recognize that is little more than a slave to the almighty dollar.
Bear's "Growl of Approval" award 10/09 & 3/10 | "YOU SUCK" - PonyExpress8|"F the doctors!" - homerunhall | I hate my car
<< <i>Some customers, and in my case it is the extreme minority, are simply not worth the sale. Anyone who does not recognize that is little more than a slave to the almighty dollar. >>
The people I know who own their own businesses all agree that it's in your best interest as a business owner to encourage some people to become customers of your competitors.
Seriously, though- I'm thinking it would suck mightily if the success of your business is dependent on satisfying the 1% (or whatever the percentage actually is) of people who appear to never be satisfied.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>I've always been a rebel at heart...
The Vets like me... my bosses, not so much
Veterinarians
Broadstruck ... you have way too much time on your hands ... where do you find all these crazy pics
<< <i>Bottom line... there are some really cool people involved in this hobby... on ALL sides of the table... and there are some real pills, as well... sorta just like life... whatya know about that?
>>
Hi Larry,
Great post, it is nice to hear life from both sides of the table. -planchet
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I've always been a rebel at heart...
The Vets like me... my bosses, not so much
Veterinarians
Broadstruck ... you have way too much time on your hands ... where do you find all these crazy pics
the guy is in the wrong bidness
<< <i>First and foremost --- All these threads that pop up in many variations to gripe about some caricature concept of the evil, smelly and rude coin dealers
Same goes for coin collectors... I know a few
Yet it would be a real eye opener if coin collectors could experience the "business" of coins from the dealers perspective... some coin collectors can be real pieces of work, to say the least...
Example --- person spends a half hour looking for "the perfect coin"... finds one... then does their best to talk it down to bid or close to it... THEN, after they get a very nice price, turn around and pull out some of their "reject" coins and expect the dealer to happily trade for these problem coins AT EVEN MONEY.... sorry... I won't tell ya what to do with a rope but we will not have a deal and I will be at least a bit peeved by all the wasted time...
Example --- During the busiest time of the show, the "very knowledeable collector" who once bought a coin from you about three years ago (after taking several hours, four shows and three phone calls to decide to pull the trigger and now thinks they "own" you ... yes I exaggerate a little) just has to tell you ALL ABOUT the finer variations of die charcteristics of the 1838 dime in regards to the date/dentil locations and the reeding marks and how they vary from the 1842 variety such and such and how the die crack on his 1852 or whatever quarter is so cool and has not been seen as far as he knows and did I show you the recent half dollar that I bought from so and so and I'm really wondering if I should consider a coin in an ANACS holder and PCGS is the best (but he has rejected at least 50 PCGS coins over the past year... that you know of
Folks... busy coin shows are primarily mini-marathons for coin business to take place... a small window of opportunity... coin CLUBS, on the other hand, can be places to discuss the finer points of numismatics... or maybe coin forums such as this one...
Example --- The collector with four loupes... a pile of disarrayed paperwork (with the obligatory grey sheet from last year)... who wants to look thru ALL your wares and just HAS TO spread everything in every direction and then "discovers" the most amazing coin in your junk box that he examines feverishly for what seems an eternity and wants to ask "what is that spot behind Liberty's head....is that toning or corrosion?... and you look at the coin marked $5 and say "it is a spot" ... and they ask if you can sell it for $3... and all the while you have tried to figure out a way to ask them to kindly "find a rope"
Example --- Folks who grade with 10x or higher magnification (and of course, never find anything they like)
Example --- Folks who call PCGS "pgc" or some variation... but insist they only like that company and then reject 100 PCGS coins as over-graded, because they expect a 65 label to have a 67 coin in it... or something...
Final example (for now
Bottom line... there are some really cool people involved in this hobby... on ALL sides of the table... and there are some real pills, as well... sorta just like life... whatya know about that?
(edited to add --- Now I am going to pour myself another cup of coffee... see ya all later
While I got a good chuckle out of your post, please remember that collectors pay dealers' salary, not the other way around. As salesman, it is wise of us to remember this.
<< <i>While I got a good chuckle out of your post, please remember that collectors pay dealers' salary, not the other way around. As salesman, it is wise of us to remember this. >>
Of course dealers don't pay collectors' salaries. They do, however, do the legwork to find and make available the coins that collectors want.
I was talking to a dealer the other day who had just flown home after making offers on collections he inspected in two different states. With no guarantee that he'll actually be able to buy the coins. How many collectors are willing to pay that price in order to find the coins they're interested in? Very few, I'd suppose.
Buyer or seller, it's a voluntary transaction- each party has something the other values more.
<< <i>Larry - What's your table number at FUN? I need some space to spread out a couple three-ringed binders and some laminated sheets with proprietary info on variety identification. And, most of all, I need someone to talk to about my binders and laminated sheets.
I may be a fun guy but I don't "do" FUN... and now I think that's a good thing
...not to say I would not enjoy meeting you some day and talking about coins with you
<< <i>I was talking to a dealer the other day who had just flown home after making offers on collections he inspected in two different states. With no guarantee that he'll actually be able to buy the coins. How many collectors are willing to pay that price in order to find the coins they're interested in? Very few, I'd suppose. >>
Profit is a strong motivator.
That said, as a seller I take trips to customers all the time. Some end up in business and some do not. It's called the cost of doing business. I'm happy to do it and it doesn't make me feel superior to the people I sell to. Why should coin dealers be any different?
<< <i>That said, as a seller, I take trips to customers all the time. Some end up in business, and some do not. It's called the cost of doing business, and I'm happy to do it and it doesn't make me feel superior to the people I sell to. Why should coin sellers be any different? >>
I didn't intend to give the impression that dealers were superior due to what they do. If you somehow got that idea from what I wrote, I'm sorry.
<< <i>
<< <i>That said, as a seller, I take trips to customers all the time. Some end up in business, and some do not. It's called the cost of doing business, and I'm happy to do it and it doesn't make me feel superior to the people I sell to. Why should coin sellers be any different? >>
I didn't intend to give the impression that dealers were superior due to what they do. If you somehow got that idea from what I wrote, I'm sorry. >>
I realize that, and my comment wasn't necessarily directed at you.
I guess I just don't understand the sense of entitlement for being, essentially, an educated middle-man.
If I treated my customers the way that I've been treated at coin shows and at coin shops, I would get laughed at.
<< <i>I guess I just don't understand the sense of entitlement for being, essentially, an educated middle-man. >>
Not all dealers feel that way, and just a short time on this forum would provide all the proof one needs that collectors are not exactly amateurs when it comes to exhibiting a sense of entitlement.
<< <i>If I treated my customers the way that I've been treated at coin shows and at coin shops, I would get laughed at. >>
Sure, some dealers are rude. So are some collectors. As are, I'm pretty confident, some people who are neither collectors or dealers.
It is often the other way around. Many dealers who set up at shows routinely do the vast majority of their business with other dealers/wholesalers....and not by choice but it's the only way that works. Those buying dealers know their market inside and out and can make instant decisions, often paying far more than collectors would think of paying at that precise moment. Those same collectors will pass on those very coins at their local/regional shows yet happily fork over another 10-30% when the same coin reappears in their favorite national retailer's price list. Ultimately, all these coins tend to gravitate towards the biggest retailers where they ultimately find longer term homes. Most collectors feel comfort in knowing they bought from the biggest/best even if it was at an appreciable mark-up.
roadrunner
<< <i>While I got a good chuckle out of your post, please remember that collectors pay dealers' salary, not the other way around. As salesman, it is wise of us to remember this.
It is often the other way around. Many dealers who set up at shows routinely do the vast majority of their business with other dealers/wholesalers....and not by choice but it's the only way that works. Those buying dealers know their market inside and out and can make instant decisions, often paying far more than collectors would think of paying at that precise moment. Those same collectors will pass on those very coins at their local/regional shows yet happily fork over another 10-30% when the same coin reappears in their favorite national retailer's price list. Ultimately, all these coins tend to gravitate towards the biggest retailers where they ultimately find longer term homes. Most collectors feel comfort in knowing they bought from the biggest/best even if it was at an appreciable mark-up.
roadrunner >>
I haven't had a drink in years... but I must raise a glass to that mouthful, Roadrunner
Whichever side of the table one is on , (and many of us have been on both sides) it is the
'Nature of the Beast' and not likely to change soon
<< <i>Sure, some dealers are rude. So are some collectors. As are, I'm pretty confident, some people who are neither collectors or dealers. >>
This best summarizes my view on the topic.
<< <i>While I got a good chuckle out of your post, please remember that collectors pay dealers' salary, not the other way around. As salesman, it is wise of us to remember this.
It is often the other way around. Many dealers who set up at shows routinely do the vast majority of their business with other dealers/wholesalers....and not by choice but it's the only way that works. Those buying dealers know their market inside and out and can make instant decisions, often paying far more than collectors would think of paying at that precise moment. Those same collectors will pass on those very coins at their local/regional shows yet happily fork over another 10-30% when the same coin reappears in their favorite national retailer's price list. Ultimately, all these coins tend to gravitate towards the biggest retailers where they ultimately find longer term homes. Most collectors feel comfort in knowing they bought from the biggest/best even if it was at an appreciable mark-up.
roadrunner >>
That's not the other way around. Said slightly differently, I've yet to have a dealer pay me when I purchase a coin from him.
I am not denying that a significant or even majority of business is dealer/dealer and dealer/wholesalers. However, in each of these transactions, there is a buyer and a seller, and without the ultimate destination, the collector, none of these would exist.
<< <i>
<< <i>While I got a good chuckle out of your post, please remember that collectors pay dealers' salary, not the other way around. As salesman, it is wise of us to remember this.
It is often the other way around. Many dealers who set up at shows routinely do the vast majority of their business with other dealers/wholesalers....and not by choice but it's the only way that works. Those buying dealers know their market inside and out and can make instant decisions, often paying far more than collectors would think of paying at that precise moment. Those same collectors will pass on those very coins at their local/regional shows yet happily fork over another 10-30% when the same coin reappears in their favorite national retailer's price list. Ultimately, all these coins tend to gravitate towards the biggest retailers where they ultimately find longer term homes. Most collectors feel comfort in knowing they bought from the biggest/best even if it was at an appreciable mark-up.
roadrunner >>
That's not the other way around. Said slightly differently, I've yet to have a dealer pay me when I purchase a coin from him.
I am not denying that a significant or even majority of business is dealer/dealer and dealer/wholesalers. However, in each of these transactions, there is a buyer and a seller, and without the ultimate destination, the collector, none of these would exist. >>
Hey Mike... and I mean this in the friendliest of ways...
kootchie-kootchie-koo, dude... lighten up... everything does not need to be all serious and somber... really
We're just havin' a little fun here on a snowy weekend (well, at least for some of us) ... please don't bring a bunch of serious rationality into the exchange...
like... bummer, dude...
you're, like, bringin' me down, man...
<< <i>
<< <i>I was talking to a dealer the other day who had just flown home after making offers on collections he inspected in two different states. With no guarantee that he'll actually be able to buy the coins. How many collectors are willing to pay that price in order to find the coins they're interested in? Very few, I'd suppose. >>
Profit is a strong motivator.
That said, as a seller I take trips to customers all the time. Some end up in business and some do not. It's called the cost of doing business. I'm happy to do it and it doesn't make me feel superior to the people I sell to. Why should coin dealers be any different? >>
I think that the point Larry was clearly trying to make is that some people are miserable to do business with. Everyone on here loves to jump all over dealers and bash them, but some people are miserable to deal with.
I work at a car dealership and, although very rare, I will absolutely throw people out of the store and refuse to do business with them. Happened the other day actually.
I agree with most of what you say- unless I do anything like that to you-which of course then deams it ok.
and yes I love hearing dealers discussing coins saying
"yes, its in a pc 5 holder"
"oh, but its in a ng 3" holder
heaven forbid a dealer say pcgs ms65 or ngc ms63....
gotta love them!!
<< <i>wow larry- you must have had a real fun old bridge show!
I agree with most of what you say- unless I do anything like that to you-which of course then deams it ok.
and yes I love hearing dealers discussing coins saying
"yes, its in a pc 5 holder"
"oh, but its in a ng 3" holder
heaven forbid a dealer say pcgs ms65 or ngc ms63....
gotta love them!! >>
Old Bridge WAS supposed to be tomorrow... damn blizzard
I tend to be very picky about mentioning problems were putting our coins up. I mention small scratches on the holder that many dealers would not bother to mention, and price the coins accordingly. Because of this we have virtually no returns on anything we ship.
Certain people will come into the shop, pick up a coin described on the holder as "VF-20. Scratch below date," look at it with a glass and proclaim in a shocked, shocked voice "This coin has a scratch on it!" I will gently point out "Yes. That's why I wrote 'Scratch below date' on the holder." They will then say "Well, will you take less for it because of the scratch," as though the scratch were a new discovery for the both of us.
Certain other people have to grind their thumbs into every slab right over the coin. All this can do is scratch the plastic. I once had a guy do this on a slab that we had just gotten back from slabland, and had opened the package right in front of him! I grabbed the coin back from him and said "It isn't going to get any bigger!"
TD
<< <i>Hi Tom -- Unfortunately, I just learned that Larry won't be at FUN, and John hasn't responded to my earlier post. So . . . what's your table number at the show? I need some space to spread out a couple three-ringed binders and some laminated sheets with proprietary info on variety identification. And, most of all, I need someone to talk to about my binders and laminated sheets.
Wow... it's like deja vu all over again
TD
<< <i>Hi Tom -- Unfortunately, I just learned that Larry won't be at FUN, and John hasn't responded to my earlier post. So . . . what's your table number at the show? I need some space to spread out a couple three-ringed binders and some laminated sheets with proprietary info on variety identification. And, most of all, I need someone to talk to about my binders and laminated sheets.
The number is BR-549.
But my question was very important.
Instead, those people should be happy that there is less competition for what they want!
Reminds me of when I lived in the midwest and a good friend had a gun shop and did a lot of the local gun shows. Sometimes I would go along and help him out at his table. Some of these same types of things would happen there.
One of the things that was really annoying was when you get the 2 old guys standing there picking up each piece, saying how they bought one years ago for such and such, or how much they used to be able to get them for, and remarking how expensive they all are now. All the while, you just know they have no plans of actually buying anything.
I loved it when my friend would join in their conversation, then politely say, "hey, you see that guy over there in the blue hat, 3 aisles over?" (pointing to a particular dealer on the other side of the room) ... "No, not that one, the guy just to the left of him, yeah, see that guy?" (the 2 would-be customers are really interested in some insight he's about to give them) ... "Yeah, see that guy? Why don't you two go over there and annoy HIM for a while?"
The look on their faces was priceless as the walk away in a huff!
<< <i>Hi John -- Unfortunately, I just learned that Larry won't be at FUN. So . . . what's your table number at the show? I need some space to spread out a couple three-ringed binders and some laminated sheets with proprietary info on variety identification. And, most of all, I need someone to talk to about my binders and laminated sheets.
In my experience, it's a few vest-pocket dealers who are most likely to spread stuff all over our table and block the view of would-be customers.
But whoever does it, it's not that hard to say "Please do not put your stuff on the case".
And we're at Table #811.
So for a collector to tick off Larry, that same stunt would probably put most dealer's, including myself, over the edge. Great post!
Example: I'm not sure if it was mentioned or not, what ticks me off is when other dealer's, or collector's, look at your slabbed coin's, make an offer, and then proceed to toss the slab back to you sliding it across your showcase and scratching the hell out of the slab. It's like an offer on a coin gives them the right to treat a coin like crap.
Connor Numismatics Website
<< <i>This is some funny stuff!
Reminds me of when I lived in the midwest and a good friend had a gun shop and did a lot of the local gun shows. Sometimes I would go along and help him out at his table. Some of these same types of things would happen there.
One of the things that was really annoying was when you get the 2 old guys standing there picking up each piece, saying how they bought one years ago for such and such, or how much they used to be able to get them for, and remarking how expensive they all are now. All the while, you just know they have no plans of actually buying anything.
I loved it when my friend would join in their conversation, then politely say, "hey, you see that guy over there in the blue hat, 3 aisles over?" (pointing to a particular dealer on the other side of the room) ... "No, not that one, the guy just to the left of him, yeah, see that guy?" (the 2 would-be customers are really interested in some insight he's about to give them) ... "Yeah, see that guy? Why don't you two go over there and annoy HIM for a while?"
The look on their faces was priceless as the walk away in a huff! >>
Yeah, when they keep talking about what they used to be able to buy stuff at, they are too cheap to buy stuff at today's prices.
LOL
TD
Edited to add: Sometimes, when spots and/or premiums jump up and the same guy tells me three or more times that "I could have bought this for X last week," I smile and tell them "Well then! Just come back last week!"
<< <i>
kootchie-kootchie-koo, dude... lighten up... everything does not need to be all serious and somber... really
>>
Well, if you don't like dealing with the public, and if you don't like coin collectors, then maybe should you find another business.
I've been a businessman for over 30 years. I know that customers do not always act the way I would like them to act. I also know that they are the customer! When I've tried to understand the customer's viewpoints and motivations, then my business has generally done well.
I've never done well by disparaging my customers.
To be successful, a coin dealer should love coins and should love collectors. Of course, maybe you just want to be like used-car salesman and make a quick buck.
But for me, all the different characters I run into at shows - on both sides of the table - help make this business quite interesting, mostly enjoyable, but always entertaining. And it's also very true that helping new collectors, especially young new collectors, is what makes the coin business rewarding.
I too have seen all the posts about the bad behavior of dealers so thank you Larry for reminding us there are two sides!
The Penny Lady®
<< <i>some coin collectors can be real pieces of work, to say the least
Well, if you don't like dealing with the public, and if you don't like coin collectors, then maybe should you find another business. >>
What, exactly, did you not understand about the deliberate use of the word "some"?
<< <i>I've been a businessman for over 30 years. I know that customers do not always act the way I would like them to act. I also know that they are the customer! When I've tried to understand the customer's viewpoints and motivations, then my business has generally done well. >>
Where in the OP or in this thread have you read anything that would imply that I do not treat any and all collectors with total respect?... I think I am allowed to think as I wish... and every now and then it is good to "vent"... and if so many collectors see fit to vent regarding their dealings with others... what? are dealers not allowed to do the same? and for the record... if you might take the time to read the entire thread, you might sense the humor intended here AND that my business is doing quite well, thank you very much
<< <i>I've never done well by disparaging my customers. >>
Well, not to their face...of course... Have you NEVER commented to a co-worker or boss or family member or a friend about some difficult customer? Have you never been frustrated and shared that with anyone? Have you never found humor in some of the peculiar habits of some folks? If not... then you are either a robot or a saint...
<< <i>To be successful, a coin dealer should love coins and should love collectors. Of course, maybe you just want to be like used-car salesman and make a quick buck. >>
I am successful, thank you very much... and I do not say so to brag... I totally enjoy coins AND enjoy my time spent with other collectors (again I get the distinct impression that you did not read the entire thread) HOWEVER... I do not suffer foolishness very well and do not allow others to take advantage of me nor abuse me... and as I said previously in this thread... I do not need coins... I like them... and enjoy collecting, buying and selling them... I DO NOT need customers... but it is nice when I do have them... and so far, things have been working out pretty well... and if this hobby/business should ever become a complete drag for me, I assure you, I will gladly find another way to spend my time
I am a generally nice person who tries to offer the nicest collector coins I can find at a reasonable price... and enjoy dealing with the public FOR THE MOST PART... I have NEVER told any collector to leave my table NOR been rude to them... yet there are a few who have certainly tried my patience... such as you have, PLE... but I have responded to your concerns ( for I am sure you were not accusing me of any wrong doing...right?) and have done so in a pleasant and respectful manner...
As for the used car salesman comment... when rld14 sees that, I think you will be glad that you do not have your PM function turned on
so thanks for sharing PLE... and Happy Holidays
Just kidding, of course.
merse
<< <i>Hi Larry - just wait until next Parsippany Show - I will bring my entire numismatic library, my own overstuffed chair to take up half your table space, I may even bring a little hibachi grill in case I need a snack. Of course, I won't buy anything either.
Just kidding, of course. >>
You are welcome to visit anytime... whether for business or just to say hi and/or talk... heck... I'd even let you sit in my lap when you show me your want list EXCEPT folks might get the wrong idea
<< <i>
<< <i>some coin collectors can be real pieces of work, to say the least
Well, if you don't like dealing with the public, and if you don't like coin collectors, then maybe should you find another business. >>
What, exactly, did you not understand about the deliberate use of the word "some"?
>>
I guess "some" people just like to complain about what others have to say......
<< <i>some coin collectors can be real pieces of work, to say the least
Well, if you don't like dealing with the public, and if you don't like coin collectors, then maybe should you find another business.
I've been a businessman for over 30 years. I know that customers do not always act the way I would like them to act. I also know that they are the customer! When I've tried to understand the customer's viewpoints and motivations, then my business has generally done well.
I've never done well by disparaging my customers.
To be successful, a coin dealer should love coins and should love collectors. Of course, maybe you just want to be like used-car salesman and make a quick buck. >>
I am going to assume, that from the tone of your post that you haven't ever met Larry. I am a Used Car manager at a dealership, you have never met me. In fact, I find it hard to believe that anyone this ignorant is capable of being successful in business.
Some customers, and in my case it is the extreme minority, are simply not worth the sale. Anyone who does not recognize that is little more than a slave to the almighty dollar.
<< <i>Some customers, and in my case it is the extreme minority, are simply not worth the sale. >>
<< <i>Some customers, and in my case it is the extreme minority, are simply not worth the sale. Anyone who does not recognize that is little more than a slave to the almighty dollar. >>
The people I know who own their own businesses all agree that it's in your best interest as a business owner to encourage some people to become customers of your competitors.
Seriously, though- I'm thinking it would suck mightily if the success of your business is dependent on satisfying the 1% (or whatever the percentage actually is) of people who appear to never be satisfied.