PCGS thinks this coing is damaged :(
TwoKopeiki
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It took me a few months to convince NGC that the counterstamps were a part of minting these coins. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that PCGS refused to cross it.
For those not familiar with the series: It's a Mexican War of Independence issue from a Royalist mint in Chihuahua. In 1810, when it was established, this mint was compelled by lack of adequate machinery to cast its coinage. This was accomplished by using regular pieces of eight from the Mexico City mint as patterns, but apparently care was exercised to eradicate the M mint mark and substitute Ca in place of it. Besides having the unmistakably cast appearance and the crudely outlined Ca mint mark, these coins show on the obverse two counterstamps; on the left of the king's portrait a "T" indicating that the Royal Treasurer had received it; on the right, small crowned pillars of Hercules with a pomegranate between them, a symbol used by the Comptroller of the Real Hacienda to whom these pieces were turned over from the foundry room. These counterstamps were placed with hand punches, after each piece had been checked for weight, the lighter coins being discarded and the heavier filed down.
In 1814 this mint had been supplied with the usual Spanish-Colonial dies, and from 1814 to 1822 eight-reales pieces were struck in Chihuahua, with improvised minting machinery. Many of the sand cast pieces were afterwards struck over with regular colonial dies in this and other mints. When this occurred, the original counterstamps were sufficiently deep to be visible even after the sand cast pieces had been struck over.
Here's an image of the 1816/5 from Calbeto's reference (a must have for any 8 Reales collector) - Compendium de Ocho Reales. You can see the "T" and "Pillars" countermarks clearly:
And here's my coin currently residing in an NGC slab.
For those not familiar with the series: It's a Mexican War of Independence issue from a Royalist mint in Chihuahua. In 1810, when it was established, this mint was compelled by lack of adequate machinery to cast its coinage. This was accomplished by using regular pieces of eight from the Mexico City mint as patterns, but apparently care was exercised to eradicate the M mint mark and substitute Ca in place of it. Besides having the unmistakably cast appearance and the crudely outlined Ca mint mark, these coins show on the obverse two counterstamps; on the left of the king's portrait a "T" indicating that the Royal Treasurer had received it; on the right, small crowned pillars of Hercules with a pomegranate between them, a symbol used by the Comptroller of the Real Hacienda to whom these pieces were turned over from the foundry room. These counterstamps were placed with hand punches, after each piece had been checked for weight, the lighter coins being discarded and the heavier filed down.
In 1814 this mint had been supplied with the usual Spanish-Colonial dies, and from 1814 to 1822 eight-reales pieces were struck in Chihuahua, with improvised minting machinery. Many of the sand cast pieces were afterwards struck over with regular colonial dies in this and other mints. When this occurred, the original counterstamps were sufficiently deep to be visible even after the sand cast pieces had been struck over.
Here's an image of the 1816/5 from Calbeto's reference (a must have for any 8 Reales collector) - Compendium de Ocho Reales. You can see the "T" and "Pillars" countermarks clearly:
And here's my coin currently residing in an NGC slab.
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With all due respect to PCGS, it serves you right for submitting it.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>PCGS thinks this coing is damaged
With all due respect to PCGS, it serves you right for submitting it. >>
Bah, I enjoy the difficulty of collecting these and trying to get them slabbed. It gives me purpose, Andy
8 Reales Madness Collection
I would have thought that the difficulty of collecting would give you purpose and the difficulty of getting them slabbed would give you a headache. But I'm happy to be wrong.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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If they don't like the "look" of it, they will find a reason to Gen, whether there's actually anything wrong with it or not.
As long as you like it, that's all that matters. (I like it, too!)
<< <i>As long as they will "genuine" a coin as "cleaned", when there are absolutely no signs of any hairlines or other telltales, this one doesn't stand a chance.
If they don't like the "look" of it, they will find a reason to Gen, whether there's actually anything wrong with it or not.
As long as you like it, that's all that matters. (I like it, too!) >>
They will slab a Trade dollar that was damaged 5,000 miles from the mint with a counterstamp. Why not slab this coin which was MINTED with the counterstamp?
<< <i>
<< <i>As long as they will "genuine" a coin as "cleaned", when there are absolutely no signs of any hairlines or other telltales, this one doesn't stand a chance.
If they don't like the "look" of it, they will find a reason to Gen, whether there's actually anything wrong with it or not.
As long as you like it, that's all that matters. (I like it, too!) >>
They will slab a Trade dollar that was damaged 5,000 miles from the mint with a counterstamp. Why not slab this coin which was MINTED with the counterstamp? >>
Hey, I agree. I think it should be slabbed and graded. But then, I disagree with a lot of "genuines" coming out of there, so I may not be the one to ask.
Inconsistent practices? Nahh, that would NEVER happen!
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Don
<< <i>I would contact Ron Guth or Don Willis directly and plead your case with them. I think you may get a better result from one of them. Did PCGS say why it didn't cross? >>
All joking aside, I think this is probably your best bet.
I'd be interested to hear what they say.
With world coins, PCGS doesn't carry the same premiums over NGC as it does with U.S. material. Not as many Kool-Aid drinkers I guess. If not registry, I'd be happy with it in an NGC holder...
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<< <i>I have to ask: Why are you trying so hard to get it into PCGS plastic? Registry?
With world coins, PCGS doesn't carry the same premiums over NGC as it does with U.S. material. Not as many Kool-Aid drinkers I guess. If not registry, I'd be happy with it in an NGC holder... >>
Thank you for all the feedback, guys.
Don - I have gone through a lot of those conversations with graders at NGC before they realized it was not damaged. I don't have the time or energy to do that again. I hoped that I wouldn't have to, since I know that Calbeto catalogs are in PCGS reference library.
CP - I was hoping to have a War of Independence registry at PCGS. Working with BJ on the other 8 Reales registry sets, it gave me hope that a W4I set might be a reality. However, I am starting to doubt that now and I think i'll abandon that idea.
8 Reales Madness Collection