I was sold fake auto's

robbiegiggs · December 9, 2009 1:13AM

I just got back 6 auto's i sent in to PSA/DNA for authentication... and they all came back questionable authenticity. I would expect maybe 1 or 2 to come back as questionable but all 6???

I purchsed them on Overstock.com from raymond1949. He had a couple thousand sales and a high rating so i figured he was ok. Has anyone else purchased from this guy?

I have requested my money back and the $76 it cost me to send to PSA... (I'm not sure if PSA will credit me for the sub cost or if i'm just out of luck)

Do you guys and gals think this is proof enough that he's (purposly or not) selling fake auto's? should i report him or jsut get my money back and let it be?

suggestions wlecome.

thanks

Robert

swartz1 · December 9, 2009 1:15AM

Do you have any scans?

jimq112 · December 9, 2009 1:22AM

Rejections by psa for questionable authenticity don't get vouchers or refunds. If they did it would be a no-risk sub and they would be flooded with fakes.

Also there's plenty of bad sellers on ebay with lots of good feedback.

You might be lucky enough to get a refund on your purchase price but I don't think you'll get a refund from your seller on grading fees.

Links or scans would help.

leathtech · December 9, 2009 1:22AM

if no scans could you please list the autos that did not pass... Personally I would never buy unauthenticated autos from anyone.

alifaxwa2 · December 9, 2009 1:24AM

<< 
I purchsed them on Overstock.com from raymond1949. He had a couple thousand sales and a high rating so i figured he was ok. Has anyone else purchased from this guy?
>>

Feedback has nothing to do with authenticity of autographs, just the ability to complete a transaction.

leathtech · December 9, 2009 1:31AM

looking at his stuff it looks like junk... Carlton Fisk's auto looks nothing like this:

leathtech · December 9, 2009 1:33AM

I don't need STM to tell me this Albert is fake!

leathtech · December 9, 2009 1:38AM

this guy is a big time joke... he is trying to sell every major all-stars auto.

link

csmtampa · December 9, 2009 1:44AM

This guy used to sell on ebay a few years back but then got kicked off.

I don't remember his id, but I remember his handwriting style.

From time to time you will see one of his fakes pop up on ebay.

I would work on getting a refund but I don't see him refunding your authentication fees.

robbiegiggs · December 9, 2009 1:45AM

I'll post scans as soon as i get them back from PSA. here's a list of what i sent in.

PRINCE FIELDER
ICHIRO SUZUKI
JOSH HAMILTON
ALFONSO SORIANO
MIGUEL CABRERA
DAVID ORTIZ

I figured all the positive feedback he has, meant no one else had an issue with his auto's

okposo21 · December 9, 2009 1:53AM

His autos are fake. Some are close, but there are little characteristics that make them obvious forgeries.

Most of the card lots are selling in the 5-10 range.

If I spent 5 dollars on an autographed card, I wouldn't spend an additional 70 dollars to get them authenticated.

Generally, if there is a dealer that has that amount of superstars AND they are actual autos and not just rush jobs, they are most likely fakes

There are some guys that stake out hotels and stadiums and do get stars, but most of their autos are rush jobs and vaguely resemble the normal "i'm getting paid to do this" auto.

robbiegiggs · December 9, 2009 1:58AM

yeah, this was a rookie mistake for me... i kind of knew it going in but i figured I'd give it a try. I guess i figured there are SOME honest people out there.

I will be reporting him though and I might even report his website to the BBB depending on how he responds to my email.

thanks to all for your input.

swartz1 · December 9, 2009 2:03AM

although I dont use their service...

PSA/DNA quick opinion?

would have saved quite a few bucks here...

digicat · December 9, 2009 2:07AM

I'm sure this scumbag will say "PSA only gave their opinion, and their opinion is wrong."

There needs to be a "Punisher" in the hobby, to go and take out trash like this.

summerof68 · December 9, 2009 2:11AM

Two years ago there was a T.V. documentary on sports autograph counterfeiting. In that show the F.B.I conducted a several month long investigation and concluded that approximately 60% to 70% of all sports autographs are counterfeit. They also found that the majority of all C.O.A.'s (certificates of authenticity) are bogus as well.

With that high of a number I would say buying raw sports autographs (especially on ebay) is highly risky at best. You better be (very) confident in your ability to determine authentic from forged or your headed down a continued road of frustration and disappointment.

Edited for spelling.

WinPitcher · December 9, 2009 2:33AM

I heard the pct was a lil higher.

More like 75%

Steve

summerof68 · December 9, 2009 2:46AM

You are probably right. And if any other commodity had a 75% fraud rate the people would be running away from it by the masses. Yet collectors continue to buy.

The counterfeiter makes his money...PSA makes their money...and the collector who works hard and legitimately for his money is left holding the empty bag!

swartz1 · December 9, 2009 2:47AM

that is still to low...

byronscott4ever · December 9, 2009 3:14AM

I think that percentage only is true for certain players. Otherwise, there's a lot of commons that aren't worth much that are faked as well?

digicat · December 9, 2009 5:10AM

<< Otherwise, there's a lot of commons that aren't worth much that are faked as well? >>

Probably. It's turning a whorthless common into a few bucks with just a few strokes of a sharpie.

goose3 · December 9, 2009 5:18AM

my boy has had great luck with josh hamilton TTM.

2 or 3 times now. We recently had one holdered by PSA/DNA

mlbfan2 · December 9, 2009 5:31AM

He's pretty dumb too. Since he's selling "AUTOGRAPHED" cards, wouldn't you think he'd put "AUTO" in all of the auction titles? Instead he puts things like "SUPERSTAR OFFENSE"...

"NFL PHILIP RIVERS & DARREN SPROLES & LaDAINIAN TOMLINSO SAN DIEGO CHARGERS SUPERSTAR OFFENSE"

"ALL CARDS, ARE SENT TO PLAYERS HOMES, TO BE AUTOGRAPHED, WHENEVER POSSIBLE."
(and when it's not, I just sign them myself)

byronscott4ever · December 9, 2009 5:41AM

I've seen this too with a no auto title. Part of me thinks they do that to mislead people. I used to see listings with fakes and there was no mention of an autograph in the title or description just a picture of a signed card. I wondered if that was done so they could say they never said it was a real autograph of the player--you bought what you saw and it's up to you to determine what you bought.

mlbfan2 · December 9, 2009 6:09AM

<< I've seen this too with a no auto title. Part of me thinks they do that to mislead people. I used to see listings with fakes and there was no mention of an autograph in the title or description just a picture of a signed card. I wondered if that was done so they could say they never said it was a real autograph of the player--you bought what you saw and it's up to you to determine what you bought. >>

But, he does have "autos" in quite a few of his auction titles. I just think it's odd that he leaves it out of others.
It would be like auctioning a PSA graded card and not putting PSA in the title.

metrotheme · December 9, 2009 6:14AM

Alot of the IP autos that I get at the ballpark and hotels are way off of their sitdown signature because they're signing for speed. Alot of the NBA IP autos I have are awful and don't resemble anything close to their actual name. A few I look at and I wonder if they'd come back authentic from PSA even though I witnessed the player sign them in front of my eyes.

Does anyone else have the same feeling about some of the IP autos they've received.

<< 
Generally, if there is a dealer that has that amount of superstars AND they are actual autos and not just rush jobs, they are most likely fakes

There are some guys that stake out hotels and stadiums and do get stars, but most of their autos are rush jobs and vaguely resemble the normal "i'm getting paid to do this" auto. >>

okposo21 · December 9, 2009 6:22AM

<< 

<< Otherwise, there's a lot of commons that aren't worth much that are faked as well? >>

Probably. It's turning a whorthless common into a few bucks with just a few strokes of a sharpie. >>

I think he's referring to fringe/common players.

Nobody is making money forging a "Chris Britton" or "Matt DeSalvo" or "Cody Ransom" autograph.

I think if you see some of those pop up on the bay, theres a good chance their real.

okposo21 · December 9, 2009 6:25AM

<< Alot of the IP autos that I get at the ballpark and hotels are way off of their sitdown signature because they're signing for speed. Alot of the NBA IP autos I have are awful and don't resemble anything close to their actual name. A few I look at and I wonder if they'd come back authentic from PSA even though I witnessed the player sign them in front of my eyes.

Does anyone else have the same feeling about some of the IP autos they've received.

<< 
Generally, if there is a dealer that has that amount of superstars AND they are actual autos and not just rush jobs, they are most likely fakes

There are some guys that stake out hotels and stadiums and do get stars, but most of their autos are rush jobs and vaguely resemble the normal "i'm getting paid to do this" auto. >>

>>

Exactly. There was this one blog I used to read, about an autograph collector in NYC. He would go to team hotels/stadiums and get a ridiculous amount of stars to sign cards. He'd have a cardboard pallate of 5-10 cards per player, and get them to sign as much as he can. He didn't sell them-- he did it for his collection-- but he managed to get big name players like ARod and Pujols. However, the autos ended up being squigly lines and circles, and I don't believe they would ever pass authentication.

With that being said, if you have a dealer that says "I get all my autos in person", and he has a Pujols auto that looks like it could have come off the UDA site, or an AROD one that resemebles something steiner would get, it's most likely fake.

Ironmanfan · December 9, 2009 7:11AM

As someone else mentioned, a lot of the guys who got kicked off eBay, moved like roaches to second and third auction venues such as Overstock..........It's too bad you didn't come to the board first prior to pulling the trigger.............

digicat · December 9, 2009 8:25AM

<< 
I think he's referring to fringe/common players.

Nobody is making money forging a "Chris Britton" or "Matt DeSalvo" or "Cody Ransom" autograph.

I think if you see some of those pop up on the bay, theres a good chance their real. >>

It depends. They know that most folks who want to buy these types of autographs for $2 each are not going to spend $20 on each to get them authenticated.

Plus, I've seen some of the "fringe" autograph dealers on Ebay sometimes say "I have many more autographs in my inventory, send me a list and I'll see what I can find", or in other words, "I'll cook up anything you need."

yankeeno7 · December 9, 2009 8:48AM

Good lesson....know who you are buying raw autos from and know where they are coming from unless you are into taking a risk. I'll admit, I do take a risk every now and then. I have been fortunate enough to not have been burned only a couple of times on small items.

I also believe that there are many items signed in person that do not pass authentication. I think players do this on purpose when rushed for free autograph stalkers. Not on all...they can normally tell who genuinely want the autograph for themselves and who is just using them to make a buck. Mike Schmidt is a great example of this. Ive seen it in Cooperstown. Catch him at the golf course and you get a bunch of quick, unlegible loops that are not even letters. But go to a paid signing and you get a nice signature.

metrotheme · December 9, 2009 9:14AM

Where are you getting your information from to jump to conclusions on this? Most of these guys who are autograph seekers, especially like baseball cards get quantity of many players, especially if they follow the hotels or go for autographs at a certain stadium consistently. Read the posts on a site like sportsgraphing.com (the IP section) to see what I'm talking about. They'll go to the hotel or a game and walk away with multiple autographs from a dozen plus players. Some guys go every single night during baseball season. It's very likely that they have a wide range of autographs in their collection. You are rather off base with your statement.

<< 

Plus, I've seen some of the "fringe" autograph dealers on Ebay sometimes say "I have many more autographs in my inventory, send me a list and I'll see what I can find", or in other words, "I'll cook up anything you need." >>

WinPitcher · December 9, 2009 10:22AM

he didn't say autograph seekers he said fringe autograph ebay sellers.

Big difference IMHO.

Steve

robbiegiggs · December 9, 2009 10:26AM

So now, the seller is telling me that he does not believe in 3rd party authenticators. He says he has watched athletes sign stuff and then PSA didn't authenticate it and PSA is currently being sued over this very issue ... He's also sending me a bunch of emails and press releases from autographalert.com which, to me looks more hokey than the autos he sold me...

he has offered to refund my purchase price if i send them back...

I do beleive PSA and any authenticator makes mistakes but this seller is telling me that PSA is wrong about all 6 cards??? That just doesn't seem likely to me... i still think it's worth reporting to the BBB

metrotheme · December 9, 2009 10:46AM

Right, he spoke about "fringe" ebay sellers. What exactly is a fringe ebay seller? Alot of these seekers also double as sellers, some to recoup the costs of their autograph travels, others to profit. I've met alot of these seekers / sellers with extremely large collections (a few thousand autos).

<< he didn't say autograph seekers he said fringe autograph ebay sellers.

Big difference IMHO.

Steve >>

WinPitcher · December 9, 2009 12:59PM

LOL you keep applying the word 'seekers' yet he never uttered the word.

He never claimed the seekers (like you describe them) are the fringe ebay sellers.

That was my point, my only point.

You accused him of jumping to conclusions yet you appeared to be doing the very same thing.

Steve

edited to add: If you want to know HIS definition of 'fringe ebay sellers' ask him.

My definition would be "means just barely acceptable". So I doubt (and this is my opinion) he meant the people you described as seekers.

But you would have to ask him. Unless of course you describe yourself as one and he struck a nerve.

WinPitcher · December 9, 2009 1:03PM

he has offered to refund my purchase price if i send them back...

That is what I would do.

Steve

fkw · December 9, 2009 2:43PM

Collect Personal Checks.............. they are 99+% good.

NickM · December 9, 2009 5:45PM

fkw - but not very available for most modern players.

Nick

metrotheme · December 9, 2009 8:34PM

<< LOL you keep applying the word 'seekers' yet he never uttered the word.
He never claimed the seekers (like you describe them) are the fringe ebay sellers.
That was my point, my only point.
You accused him of jumping to conclusions yet you appeared to be doing the very same thing.

Steve

edited to add: If you want to know HIS definition of 'fringe ebay sellers' ask him.
My definition would be "means just barely acceptable". So I doubt (and this is my opinion) he meant the people you described as seekers.
But you would have to ask him. Unless of course you describe yourself as one and he struck a nerve. >>

To the original poster, ok, what do you mean by fringe ebay sellers?

Nah, no nerve struck here. As someone who buys autographs (like the person who started the post), I feel most of the people that are selling autographs have legit stuff and it is messed up by the few that put fake ones out there.

He stated "As a seller will state, "I have many more autographs in my inventory, send me a list and I'll see what I can find", or in other words, "I'll cook up anything you need." - I just disagree with this statement based on the fact that I've seen collectors / sellers acquire so many IP autographs that the really have an extremely wide inventory, more so than it means they'll cook up anything you need.

WinPitcher · December 9, 2009 11:16PM

No he did not say "as a seller will state"

He said and I quote him verbatim....

"Plus, I've seen some of the "fringe" autograph dealers on Ebay sometimes say....."

The bottom line here is he never implied nor did he say that the people who hound these guys at hotels and stadiums

are fringe ebay sellers. He never once stated that people that get IP autographs are the ones selling the bogus ones.

He also never used the word 'most' like you have he simply said 'some'.

Lastly you now say:

"- I just disagree with this statement based on the fact that I've seen collectors / sellers acquire so many IP autographs that the really have an extremely wide inventory, more so than it means they'll cook up anything you need.

You disagree because it is obvious you do not understand what he said. Again he never said the people getting the IP autos are the fringe ebay sellers nor IMO did he even imply it!

Steve

I was sold fake auto's

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