He is being portrayed as mature then. Also, two of the matters at hand are if he really was that age, and if he was taking steroids at that time...things that are a little dishonest, wouldn't you say? As you see, he wasn't exactly honest and pure then when he was lying to get into a club illegally.
Maybe he isn't as truthful as he wants us to believe.
I am still wondering what happened to "baseball doesn't matter...only Jesus."
<< <i>Also, two of the matters at hand are if he really was that age, and if he was taking steroids at that time...things that are a little dishonest, wouldn't you say? >>
If he truly is older, and is truly juicing and saying he's not, then he's dishonest. However, the only "evidence" being presented that he's dishonest is:
1) he is from Latin America 2) he's a professional baseball player 3) he sneaked into a night club when he was (so he says) 18
<< <i>As you see, he wasn't exactly honest then when he was lying to get into a club illegally. >>
He was in a club illegally when he was 18. Do you feel that a person does not change between the ages of 18 and 30?
<< <i>I am still wondering what happened to "baseball doesn't matter...only Jesus." >>
I don't see how this statement invalidates his wanting to get paid. Do you feel that the ultimate fulfillment of this statement would be A-Pu quitting baseball and becoming a minister or something?
1) he is from Latin America...where juicing runs rampant among baseball prospects. 2) he's a professional baseball player...where the culture of that time frame is juicing 3) he sneaked into a night club when he was (so he says) 18...while at the same time he portrays himself as honest and wants us to have faith in him. 4) He claims baseball does not matter, and says it doesn't matter how he is viewed as a player, and it only matters how he is viewed as a person, and that only Jesus matters....yet in his current contract dispute he want the respect he deserves as a baseball player in the form of more money. So now how he is viewed as a player does take on an importance, and it no longer is "only Jesus that matters." 5)Eyewitness observations claiming he was older than he was listed as during htat time. 6)A well improved body 7)Early balding 8)So he is the ONLY slugger to put up numbers in this era cleanly, while all the other ones who had numbers as good were on the juice. 9) There were also some allegations about his trainer from his college area 10) HE said he would be open to "anything" in regard to testing, and is willing to do any testing. No tests have been done. What is he waiting for? He knows the union won't allow it, so it is an easy thing to say.
He is getting paid a ton, but he wants MORE so he can have the respect accorded to his stature. "Baseball does not matter." "Only Jesus matters." Is getting paid more in line with, "Only Jesus matters?" What part of "Only" is unclear?
If only Jesus matters, then why doesn't he just take the superb contract that St. Louis is offering him??? Isn't that enough in the eyes of Jesus?
The bottom line is that he has inconsistencies in his story, and he is hiding behind his faith...except when it comes to contract time I guess.
<< <i>A man amongst boys? You're only talking a few years if the age "lie" is true. Genetics plays a huge role in this, don't fault him for it. My son is in 3rd grade, He weighs in at 140 lbs and wears a size 10 in mens.He plays football and wrestles. At his age that's equivalent to a 6'7 285 lineman. He's already being recruited by the two local high school football programs. Is he on HGH or steroids? Don't think so. >>
This post is useless without pics,a what 7-8 yr.old being recruited?140 pounds,what's he have to do, travel to the local H.S. to wrestle in his weight class? I'm a very proud father of what I consider a big qo yr. old playing football,but lets not get carried away now
Human athletes could eventually get to the point as it is now with racehorses. There would be two athletes wanting to conceive a child, and the teams would bid for the future athletic services of that child when it grows up.
Certain very athletic males could perform stud services to enhance the bidding price.
BTW: I am available for stud service if any team is interested. My stud fee is $5 per service and while one might say that's not a lot of money to charge, I make it up in volume.
<< <i>Human athletes could eventually get to the point as it is now with racehorses. There would be two athletes wanting to conceive a child, and the teams would bid for the future athletic services of that child when it grows up.
Certain very athletic males could perform stud services to enhance the bidding price.
BTW: I am available for stud service if any team is interested. My stud fee is $5 per service and while one might say that's not a lot of money to charge, I make it up in volume.
>>
Steve, I am sure some of that is happening now...maybe not in the exact technical terms, but when choosing mates or sperm donors, it plays a role.
I too see it going even further though.
Your price seems reasonable You could be the Henry Ford of stud services!
<< <i>Human athletes could eventually get to the point as it is now with racehorses. There would be two athletes wanting to conceive a child, and the teams would bid for the future athletic services of that child when it grows up.
Certain very athletic males could perform stud services to enhance the bidding price.
BTW: I am available for stud service if any team is interested. My stud fee is $5 per service and while one might say that's not a lot of money to charge, I make it up in volume.
>>
Steve, I am sure some of that is happening now...maybe not in the exact technical terms, but when choosing mates or sperm donors, it plays a role.
I too see it going even further though.
Your price seems reasonable You could be the Henry Ford of stud services! >>
Yes, $5 for now, but believe me, if one of my prodigy becomes a Hall of Famer, my stud fee definitely goes up.
<< <i>Human athletes could eventually get to the point as it is now with racehorses. There would be two athletes wanting to conceive a child, and the teams would bid for the future athletic services of that child when it grows up.
Certain very athletic males could perform stud services to enhance the bidding price.
BTW: I am available for stud service if any team is interested. My stud fee is $5 per service and while one might say that's not a lot of money to charge, I make it up in volume.
>>
Well, that's like $5 a minute in fees, right? ;-)
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<< <i>Human athletes could eventually get to the point as it is now with racehorses. There would be two athletes wanting to conceive a child, and the teams would bid for the future athletic services of that child when it grows up.
Certain very athletic males could perform stud services to enhance the bidding price.
BTW: I am available for stud service if any team is interested. My stud fee is $5 per service and while one might say that's not a lot of money to charge, I make it up in volume.
>>
Well, that's like $5 a minute in fees, right? ;-) >>
Up to a minute if I'm lucky, especially if it's Maria Sharapova they bring to the barn. LOL
<< <i>Steve, I am sure some of that is happening now...maybe not in the exact technical terms, but when choosing mates or sperm donors, it plays a role. >>
Allegedly, China did it for Yao Ming. Both parents were hand picked and now his feet can't last more than 40 games a season.
Frankenathletesyndrome?
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
<< <i>Steve, I am sure some of that is happening now...maybe not in the exact technical terms, but when choosing mates or sperm donors, it plays a role. >>
Allegedly, China did it for Yao Ming. Both parents were hand picked and now his feet can't last more than 40 games a season.
Frankenathletesyndrome? >>
Really?
Is that for real...or you just messing around(aside from the created syndrome name).
I don't have concrete evidence, and I can't say for certain. However, those questions I addressed to Albert need to be answered when he puts himself out there like that, and says stuff like he did.
Albert is not being consistent in what he says. He contradicted himself above with those quotes, and his actions. He also threw out the challenge of "whatever you want" in regard to testing. We are still waiting.
Here is another excerpt from that SI article...
"He met his wife, Dee Dee, when he was just 18 years old. She thought he was 21—they met in a Kansas City dance club that was for people 21 and older. On their first date he admitted being only 18. She said that she had a baby daughter, Isabella, who had been born with Down syndrome. He was in high school, still a ways from the majors. They fell in love fast."
Albert, how did you get into a club for people over 21, when you were only 18?? Were you really 21, or did you lie and say you were 21?
Albert, why are you saying that baseball means nothing to you, and only Jesus?
Is holding out for 25 million, instead of taking 18...when the average salary of the US citizen is $35,000, in line with Jesus principles, that you say is the only thing that matters to you?
Or does baseball respect truly matter(which is what you are saying now during this contract time), and is more than just Jesus as you say... thus leaving open a motive for steroid use(the Bonds motive) that it seems you are trying to avoid by saying, "baseball means nothing. Only Jesus means something"?
So now in Albert's messiah article, there are two instances showing that he is a liar.
Albert is on the cover of SI saying to have faith in him, yet he has two instances of being a liar in that same article??? WTF. >>
I don't know anything about Pujols- for all I know the guy is a screaming A-hole. A lot of this posturing as a good guy (not only by him, but by most athletes) is likely a cash grab to garner more endorsement deals, and frankly I don't have a problem with that. If you can convince the world that you're Christ-on-wheels while spending your evenings at the Gold Club then good on ya.
Just getting back on track for a second, the real issue at hand here is whether Pujols is juiced. And I believe-- and I think will always believe-- that the calling card of any curious mind is that it's perpetually skeptical. If someone says "Clemente is the best RF ever', curious minds are skeptical. If someone says 'The Yankees always win because they have a bigger payroll', the curious mind is skeptical. And if someone says 'Pujols has to be juiced, because it makes no sense in this day and age that someone with that kind of talent could ever fall that far in the draft', then we still have to remain skeptical UNTIL evidence is produced that disproves the null hypothesis.
That, to me, is the fundamental principle of science and reason; we require evidence before we adopt a belief. And so, while if I had to lay my money down I would have to bet that Pujols is juiced to the 9's, I can't declare that 'he's juiced' due to the paucity of evidence. To do so, I think, is irresponsible.
I don't have concrete evidence, and I can't say for certain. However, those questions I addressed to Albert need to be answered when he puts himself out there like that, and says stuff like he did.
Albert is not being consistent in what he says. He contradicted himself above with those quotes, and his actions. He also threw out the challenge of "whatever you want" in regard to testing. We are still waiting.
Here is another excerpt from that SI article...
"He met his wife, Dee Dee, when he was just 18 years old. She thought he was 21—they met in a Kansas City dance club that was for people 21 and older. On their first date he admitted being only 18. She said that she had a baby daughter, Isabella, who had been born with Down syndrome. He was in high school, still a ways from the majors. They fell in love fast."
Albert, how did you get into a club for people over 21, when you were only 18?? Were you really 21, or did you lie and say you were 21?
Albert, why are you saying that baseball means nothing to you, and only Jesus?
Is holding out for 25 million, instead of taking 18...when the average salary of the US citizen is $35,000, in line with Jesus principles, that you say is the only thing that matters to you?
Or does baseball respect truly matter(which is what you are saying now during this contract time), and is more than just Jesus as you say... thus leaving open a motive for steroid use(the Bonds motive) that it seems you are trying to avoid by saying, "baseball means nothing. Only Jesus means something"?
So now in Albert's messiah article, there are two instances showing that he is a liar.
Albert is on the cover of SI saying to have faith in him, yet he has two instances of being a liar in that same article??? WTF. >>
I don't know anything about Pujols- for all I know the guy is a screaming A-hole. A lot of this posturing as a good guy (not only by him, but by most athletes) is likely a cash grab to garner more endorsement deals, and frankly I don't have a problem with that. If you can convince the world that you're Christ-on-wheels while spending your evenings at the Gold Club then good on ya.
Just getting back on track for a second, the real issue at hand here is whether Pujols is juiced. And I believe-- and I think will always believe-- that the calling card of any curious mind is that it's perpetually skeptical. If someone says "Clemente is the best RF ever', curious minds are skeptical. If someone says 'The Yankees always win because they have a bigger payroll', the curious mind is skeptical. And if someone says 'Pujols has to be juiced, because it makes no sense in this day and age that someone with that kind of talent could ever fall that far in the draft', then we still have to remain skeptical UNTIL evidence is produced that disproves the null hypothesis.
That, to me, is the fundamental principle of science and reason; we require evidence before we adopt a belief. And so, while if I had to lay my money down I would have to bet that Pujols is juiced to the 9's, I can't declare that 'he's juiced' due to the paucity of evidence. To do so, I think, is irresponsible. >>
I just see through some of his defenses....Albert, you ain't gonna pull the wool over my eyes dude with those reasons you give that you are clean. A bunch of B.S. and hiding behind faith.
The age is another issue...but usually when it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...
A lot of fans do buy into him though.
But, Albert could put an end, or at least a serious wound, into the people that believe he is on juice. All he has to do is follow through with what he said he would do...and that is "anything" in regard to testing to show that he is clean. But it is two years since then, and we are still waiting for even something, let alone anything.
<< <i>Boopotts, I would say I'm exactly where you are concerning this issue on every point. However, Saberman (while he may have at times passed off Pujols' possible/likely use as fact), I think we could all see the tenor of his posts and see that it was just strong opinion that he is trying to express. So I take it as that, an opinion. We all know there is no smoking gun out there where Pujols is concerned.
Saberman, while I would love to see Pujols and the rest of MLB's stars lead a crusade on tougher testing, we all know that's not going to happen. Yes, he might be hypocritical in his comments but that's what these people do. You could throw Jeter into the lot as well as many others, though most of them probably haven't been as vociferous as Pujols. >>
I think there is ZERO chance the MLBPA would ever let a player follow through on such a promise. There is also ZERO chance that said player would "out" the MLBPA about blocking him.
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Yeah, I don't have proof at all. I would just like to ask Albert those questions.
Digicat jokingly above asked if I thought Albert should become a priest. Actually, when you make a comment that baseball means nothing, and that Jesus means everything...then he probably should become a man of the cloth if he truly means those words. However, we all know that he is only saying that so that he eliminates the 'Bonds motive' of doing steroids.
He thinks by saying that baseball means nothing, that we will actually believe that since it means nothing to him, that he would have no reason to ever do steroids. I see right through that garbage...but a lot of people are drinking the Kool Aid. At least it isn't the Jim Jones Kool Aid.
Yeah, I don't have proof at all. I would just like to ask Albert those questions.
Digicat jokingly above asked if I thought Albert should become a priest. Actually, when you make a comment that baseball means nothing, and that Jesus means everything...then he probably should become a man of the cloth if he truly means those words.
////////////////
I don't know what the 'over' is on the number of months before Albert Pujols swears off baseball to become a missionary, but whatever the line might be I'm backing up the truck on that bet. FWIW, it's a little weird that you're calling out Pujols to this extent. Sure, he's a phony- but who amongst the highest tier of American athletes isn't?
One other question (since you would know better than I). Ignoring the silly steriods issue for a minute, who will history regard as a better hitter- Pujols or Bonds? In other words, which hitter, according to the sabrmaticians, is/was more dominant?
<< <i>One other question (since you would know better than I). Ignoring the silly steriods issue for a minute, who will history regard as a better hitter- Pujols or Bonds? In other words, which hitter, according to the sabrmaticians, is/was more dominant? >>
Ignoring steroids, great as Albert is, he's not in Bonds' class as a hitter. Pujols' has been more consistent but Bonds' peak is far above Pujols'. Bonds holds the all-time single season records for:
- walks (232 - he's also #2 with 198, and #3 with 177) - intentional walks (120 - he's also #2 and #3, #6, #6 again, and #9) - OPS+ (268 - he's #2 and #3 in this) - OPS (1.4217 - he's also #2 and #4 in this) - On-Base % (.609 - he's also #2 in this) - Slugging % (.863 - he's also #4 and #5 in this) - Runs Created (230 - he's also #4 and #6 in this) - Home Runs (73)
Pujols holds no single-season records.
Bonds also stole 514 bases, with a high of 52. Pujols has 75 in his entire career.
Bonds won 7 MVPs and should have 8, getting robbed the year Bonilla won his. Pujols has won 3, should have at least 4, maybe 5.
Bonds won 8 Gold Gloves and was considered an elite defender for most of his career. Pujols has won 2 and is never discussed as an elite defender.
In short, it brings into focus just what an amazing player Barry Bonds was - particularly in his 'roid-infested later years - that ALBERT FREAKING PUJOLS doesn't come close to what Barry accomplished.
Me calling out Pujols instead of other phony players, probably results from the weird behavior of his fan base., and his own spewing of BS that is waist high deep.
Steriods aside, Bonds falls somewhere in the top five hitters of all time. He easily beats Pujols.
Some advanced Sabermetric measures....
Career Win Probability Added...which takes into the context of the at bat. Bonds 128. Led league 10 times. Pujols 59. Led leage 1 time.
Career OPS+ Bonds 182.....sustained over 12,606 plate appearances Pujols 172.....sustained over 6,782 plate appearances
For OPS+, in other words, Pujols has to do another 10 years of what he has done already, and he will still be behind Bonds!
Wins Above Replacement(WAR) BOnds 172 Pujols 83.8
WAR All Time Rankings: 1. Ruth 172 2. Bonds 171 3. Cobb 159
The all time leaders in Adjusted Batter Runs are:
1. RUth 1,382 2. Bonds 1,301 3. Williams 1,134
THat doesn't mean that Bonds is a better hitter than Ted WIlliams(for the obvious War Reasons), and for other reasons. Then the era's they were achieved in makes a difference. Both BOnds and Pujols had the luxury of the current live ball era(which are factors that enhance, besides that of steroids). But that is a pretty high ranking for some strong measurements.
We will see how Pujols plays out his next ten years. In order to almost equal Bonds in some of those measurements, he will need to produce the exact same over his next 6,700 platea apperances as he did in his first 6,700. Then that would only almost equal him as a hitter....and he will be listed at 41 at the end of that run. Of course, that age may be a couple years short.
BUt Bonds was a far superior base runner, and at least as good a defender and probably better. SO in essence, Pujols will never equal or surpass Bonds as a player in either peak or career measurement.
<< <i>Digicat jokingly above asked if I thought Albert should become a priest. Actually, when you make a comment that baseball means nothing, and that Jesus means everything...then he probably should become a man of the cloth if he truly means those words. >>
Perhaps A-Poo doesn't think that baseball interferes with his faith. Perhaps A-Poo was making a comparison.
Albert's Faith > Albert's baseball career
In that respect, and in context, A-Poo is using his faith (an established moral code) as a reason why he wouldn't cheat in baseball.
On that note, I think I could say "my career means nothing, my family means everything" and be 100% honest. It doesn't mean that I will go quit my job and become a stay-at-home dad. It just means that my family and the condition of it is far more important than anything related to my career.
<< <i>Digicat jokingly above asked if I thought Albert should become a priest. Actually, when you make a comment that baseball means nothing, and that Jesus means everything...then he probably should become a man of the cloth if he truly means those words. >>
Perhaps A-Poo doesn't think that baseball interferes with his faith. Perhaps A-Poo was making a comparison.
Albert's Faith > Albert's baseball career
In that respect, and in context, A-Poo is using his faith (an established moral code) as a reason why he wouldn't cheat in baseball. >>
Really? A faith is a good defense for that? So since a priest has great faith, I guess they have been innocent of all those wrong donigs to minors, because it is against the faith of Jesus? Having a faith in a religion has nothing to do with taking steroids, nor does it mean somebody who has that faith would not do steroids.
"Nothing", and "everything" are strong words. Nothing means nothing. It does not mean more or less important. Everything means everything.
Albert cares how much money he makes, and wants to be paid accordingly for the respect he deserves. ALbert cares how good he is viewed as a baseball player. Albert practices baseball a lot, and plays it a lot. Baseball does not mean nothing to him! Sure, it may not mean as much as Jesus to him...but certainly not nothing...otherwise he would not have actions that show it DOES mean something to him.
Since it DOES mean something to him, he cannot go around acting as if it means "NOTHING" to him, and then try and make us believe that since it means "nothing", that there is no point to take steroids to enhance something that means "nothing."
Also, he didn't say his family...it is a given that your family means more to you than your work, but that doesn't mean your work means nothing, like Albert said. Some people's work may indeed be nothing to them, because it is probably a crummy job. DOubtful Albert falls into that category.
"Nothing." Not much grey area there my friend. If there is an implied grey area, then it also opens up the motive for doing steroids to enhance it. He uses that "nothing" reason to try and close that motive. Some people bought it, cough, cough. I have not.
<< <i>Really? A faith is a good defense for that? So since a priest has great faith, I guess they have been innocent of all those wrong donigs to minors, because it is against the faith of Jesus? >>
What value do you think "faith" has in someone's life? Do you believe that someone can derive their moral/ethical code from their faith, and use that code to determine what's right or wrong, and further, to choose "right" over "wrong"? If you don't feel that someone's faith can provide that kind of direction, then that's probably why you keep picking on this particular issue.
Anyways, A-Pu's trying to say that his faith is important to him, and defines his moral code. Typically, the Christian moral/ethical code prohibits lying and cheating. Fine, Albert lied about his age when he was a teenager. That's not a "gotcha" when it was done so far back in the past.
<< <i>"Nothing." Not much grey area there my friend. If there is an implied grey area, then it also opens up the motive for doing steroids to enhance it. He uses that "nothing" reason to try and close that motive. >>
In context, he used "baseball means nothing" along with "Jesus means everything", and both of those were said in context as to why he wouldn't cheat. The key here is using the nothing/everything comments together, not apart. I interpreted what Pujols said as being along the lines of: "Baseball is not so important to me that I will violate my moral or ethical code, as dictated by my faith, to get an advantage in it."
Obviously, baseball means "something", there's no getting around that. Being a professional athlete takes dedication and commitment. But when you compare stuff to things of greater importance, the smaller things tend to look even smaller.
Perhaps he should have his lawyers write his statements to the press in the future.
I'm not a Pujols fan, I'm not a Cardinals fan. If you want to talk about body growth, head size, etc, fine, I don't really care. However, I think that picking on his little statement of faith is totally misguided and flawed.
Thank you for the responses. I agree that this analysis really does put Bonds' career in perspective. It's easy to forget (or to never understand, in my case) how dominant he really was.
I also agree, Hoop, on the creepiness of the Pujols cult. Although I'm not sure it's creepier than the Cult of Ichiro, all said and done.
So if my wife suspects I am cheating on her, I can just tell her sex means nothing to me and that Jesus means everyting...and I will be off the hook.
He is either lying about his "nothing" statement, or is simply inaccurate in his assessment. Either way, it leaves open the motive that doing steroids to better himself as a player is certainly a possibility....the exact motive he is trying to avoid by claiming baseball means nothing to him.
This is not a little nit picking thing. There are people with great faith who have done horrible things to children...so if he expects us to believe that "faith in Jesus" would prevent him from doing a minor transgression such as steroids, compared to those awful things that people of great faith have done...he is crazy.
<< <i>He is either lying about his "nothing" statement, or is simply inaccurate in his assessment. Either way, it leaves open the motive that doing steroids to better himself as a player is certainly a possibility....the exact motive he is trying to avoid by claiming baseball means nothing to him. >>
So what you're getting at is that there is no valid reason why a player would NOT cheat, and any reason given for NOT cheating is a lie that implies guilt?
<< <i>So if my wife suspects I am cheating on her, I can just tell her sex means nothing to me and that Jesus means everyting...and I will be off the hook. >>
If your relationship with your wife is so messed up that she suspects you're having an affair, then I don't think any single statement will get you off the hook.
Personally, I think steroids should be used more often and not banned at all. What do I care if the players start dropping dead when they're 40 or 50 years old...I wanna be entertained, I wanna see more home runs...and bench clearing brawls probably triggered by players roid-rage, is good entertainment as well. Instead of chewing tobacco, give 'em chewable steroids, fruit flavored if necessary to make them more palatable.
<< <i>Steve, I am sure some of that is happening now...maybe not in the exact technical terms, but when choosing mates or sperm donors, it plays a role. >>
Allegedly, China did it for Yao Ming. Both parents were hand picked and now his feet can't last more than 40 games a season.
Frankenathletesyndrome? >>
Really?
Is that for real...or you just messing around(aside from the created syndrome name). >>
It was something locals just accepted (be it a myth, gossip, or whatever) and occasionally discussed on the radio. Quick google search of ["yao ming" + parents + selected] came up with this:
So basically my kid won't be able to go to college, but at least I'll have a set where the three most expensive cards are of a player I despise ~ CDsNuts
It wasn't as unfair as your post implies. Howard's OPS was .869, Kaline's was .889. Howard's OPS+ was 140, Kaline's 144. Add in that Howard was a Gold Glover at a more difficult position (catcher vs RF, though Kaline was an all-time great in RF) and that New York won the pennant, while Detroit finished under .500 and, well, you get Howard winning the MVP. Kaline only got *1* 1st place vote - Whitey Ford, who finished 3rd, got *3*.
Comments
Maybe he isn't as truthful as he wants us to believe.
I am still wondering what happened to "baseball doesn't matter...only Jesus."
<< <i>He is being portrayed as mature then. >>
The SI writer is portraying him as mature then.
<< <i>Also, two of the matters at hand are if he really was that age, and if he was taking steroids at that time...things that are a little dishonest, wouldn't you say? >>
If he truly is older, and is truly juicing and saying he's not, then he's dishonest. However, the only "evidence" being presented that he's dishonest is:
1) he is from Latin America
2) he's a professional baseball player
3) he sneaked into a night club when he was (so he says) 18
<< <i>As you see, he wasn't exactly honest then when he was lying to get into a club illegally. >>
He was in a club illegally when he was 18. Do you feel that a person does not change between the ages of 18 and 30?
<< <i>I am still wondering what happened to "baseball doesn't matter...only Jesus." >>
I don't see how this statement invalidates his wanting to get paid. Do you feel that the ultimate fulfillment of this statement would be A-Pu quitting baseball and becoming a minister or something?
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
<< <i>
1) he is from Latin America...where juicing runs rampant among baseball prospects.
2) he's a professional baseball player...where the culture of that time frame is juicing
3) he sneaked into a night club when he was (so he says) 18...while at the same time he portrays himself as honest and wants us to have faith in him.
4) He claims baseball does not matter, and says it doesn't matter how he is viewed as a player, and it only matters how he is viewed as a person, and that only Jesus matters....yet in his current contract dispute he want the respect he deserves as a baseball player in the form of more money. So now how he is viewed as a player does take on an importance, and it no longer is "only Jesus that matters."
5)Eyewitness observations claiming he was older than he was listed as during htat time.
6)A well improved body
7)Early balding
8)So he is the ONLY slugger to put up numbers in this era cleanly, while all the other ones who had numbers as good were on the juice.
9) There were also some allegations about his trainer from his college area
10) HE said he would be open to "anything" in regard to testing, and is willing to do any testing. No tests have been done. What is he waiting for? He knows the union won't allow it, so it is an easy thing to say.
He is getting paid a ton, but he wants MORE so he can have the respect accorded to his stature. "Baseball does not matter." "Only Jesus matters." Is getting paid more in line with, "Only Jesus matters?" What part of "Only" is unclear?
If only Jesus matters, then why doesn't he just take the superb contract that St. Louis is offering him??? Isn't that enough in the eyes of Jesus?
The bottom line is that he has inconsistencies in his story, and he is hiding behind his faith...except when it comes to contract time I guess.
<< <i> My son is in 3rd grade, He's already being recruited by the two local high school football programs. >>
Best laugh I've had on here in a while.
<< <i>A man amongst boys? You're only talking a few years if the age "lie" is true. Genetics plays a huge role in this, don't fault him for it. My son is in 3rd grade, He weighs in at 140 lbs and wears a size 10 in mens.He plays football and wrestles. At his age that's equivalent to a 6'7 285 lineman. He's already being recruited by the two local high school football programs. Is he on HGH or steroids? Don't think so. >>
This post is useless without pics,a what 7-8 yr.old being recruited?140 pounds,what's he have to do,
travel to the local H.S. to wrestle in his weight class? I'm a very proud father of what I consider a big qo yr. old
playing football,but lets not get carried away now
Needs'
1972 Football-9's high#'s
1965 Football-8's
1958 Topps FB-7-8
Certain very athletic males could perform stud services to enhance the bidding price.
BTW: I am available for stud service if any team is interested. My stud fee is $5 per service and while one might say that's not a lot of money to charge, I make it up in volume.
<< <i>Human athletes could eventually get to the point as it is now with racehorses. There would be two athletes wanting to conceive a child, and the teams would bid for the future athletic services of that child when it grows up.
Certain very athletic males could perform stud services to enhance the bidding price.
BTW: I am available for stud service if any team is interested. My stud fee is $5 per service and while one might say that's not a lot of money to charge, I make it up in volume.
Steve, I am sure some of that is happening now...maybe not in the exact technical terms, but when choosing mates or sperm donors, it plays a role.
I too see it going even further though.
Your price seems reasonable
<< <i>
<< <i>Human athletes could eventually get to the point as it is now with racehorses. There would be two athletes wanting to conceive a child, and the teams would bid for the future athletic services of that child when it grows up.
Certain very athletic males could perform stud services to enhance the bidding price.
BTW: I am available for stud service if any team is interested. My stud fee is $5 per service and while one might say that's not a lot of money to charge, I make it up in volume.
Steve, I am sure some of that is happening now...maybe not in the exact technical terms, but when choosing mates or sperm donors, it plays a role.
I too see it going even further though.
Your price seems reasonable
Yes, $5 for now, but believe me, if one of my prodigy becomes a Hall of Famer, my stud fee definitely goes up.
<< <i>Human athletes could eventually get to the point as it is now with racehorses. There would be two athletes wanting to conceive a child, and the teams would bid for the future athletic services of that child when it grows up.
Certain very athletic males could perform stud services to enhance the bidding price.
BTW: I am available for stud service if any team is interested. My stud fee is $5 per service and while one might say that's not a lot of money to charge, I make it up in volume.
Well, that's like $5 a minute in fees, right? ;-)
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
----------------------
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<< <i>
<< <i>Human athletes could eventually get to the point as it is now with racehorses. There would be two athletes wanting to conceive a child, and the teams would bid for the future athletic services of that child when it grows up.
Certain very athletic males could perform stud services to enhance the bidding price.
BTW: I am available for stud service if any team is interested. My stud fee is $5 per service and while one might say that's not a lot of money to charge, I make it up in volume.
Well, that's like $5 a minute in fees, right? ;-) >>
Up to a minute if I'm lucky, especially if it's Maria Sharapova they bring to the barn. LOL
<< <i>Steve, I am sure some of that is happening now...maybe not in the exact technical terms, but when choosing mates or sperm donors, it plays a role. >>
Allegedly, China did it for Yao Ming. Both parents were hand picked and now his feet can't last more than 40 games a season.
Frankenathletesyndrome?
<< <i>
<< <i>Steve, I am sure some of that is happening now...maybe not in the exact technical terms, but when choosing mates or sperm donors, it plays a role. >>
Allegedly, China did it for Yao Ming. Both parents were hand picked and now his feet can't last more than 40 games a season.
Frankenathletesyndrome? >>
Really?
Is that for real...or you just messing around(aside from the created syndrome name).
<< <i>Boo,
I don't have concrete evidence, and I can't say for certain. However, those questions I addressed to Albert need to be answered when he puts himself out there like that, and says stuff like he did.
Albert is not being consistent in what he says. He contradicted himself above with those quotes, and his actions. He also threw out the challenge of "whatever you want" in regard to testing. We are still waiting.
Here is another excerpt from that SI article...
"He met his wife, Dee Dee, when he was just 18 years old. She thought he was 21—they met in a Kansas City dance club that was for people 21 and older. On their first date he admitted being only 18. She said that she had a baby daughter, Isabella, who had been born with Down syndrome. He was in high school, still a ways from the majors. They fell in love fast."
Albert, how did you get into a club for people over 21, when you were only 18?? Were you really 21, or did you lie and say you were 21?
Albert, why are you saying that baseball means nothing to you, and only Jesus?
Is holding out for 25 million, instead of taking 18...when the average salary of the US citizen is $35,000, in line with Jesus principles, that you say is the only thing that matters to you?
Or does baseball respect truly matter(which is what you are saying now during this contract time), and is more than just Jesus as you say... thus leaving open a motive for steroid use(the Bonds motive) that it seems you are trying to avoid by saying, "baseball means nothing. Only Jesus means something"?
So now in Albert's messiah article, there are two instances showing that he is a liar.
Albert is on the cover of SI saying to have faith in him, yet he has two instances of being a liar in that same article??? WTF. >>
I don't know anything about Pujols- for all I know the guy is a screaming A-hole. A lot of this posturing as a good guy (not only by him, but by most athletes) is likely a cash grab to garner more endorsement deals, and frankly I don't have a problem with that. If you can convince the world that you're Christ-on-wheels while spending your evenings at the Gold Club then good on ya.
Just getting back on track for a second, the real issue at hand here is whether Pujols is juiced. And I believe-- and I think will always believe-- that the calling card of any curious mind is that it's perpetually skeptical. If someone says "Clemente is the best RF ever', curious minds are skeptical. If someone says 'The Yankees always win because they have a bigger payroll', the curious mind is skeptical. And if someone says 'Pujols has to be juiced, because it makes no sense in this day and age that someone with that kind of talent could ever fall that far in the draft', then we still have to remain skeptical UNTIL evidence is produced that disproves the null hypothesis.
That, to me, is the fundamental principle of science and reason; we require evidence before we adopt a belief. And so, while if I had to lay my money down I would have to bet that Pujols is juiced to the 9's, I can't declare that 'he's juiced' due to the paucity of evidence. To do so, I think, is irresponsible.
<< <i>
<< <i>Boo,
I don't have concrete evidence, and I can't say for certain. However, those questions I addressed to Albert need to be answered when he puts himself out there like that, and says stuff like he did.
Albert is not being consistent in what he says. He contradicted himself above with those quotes, and his actions. He also threw out the challenge of "whatever you want" in regard to testing. We are still waiting.
Here is another excerpt from that SI article...
"He met his wife, Dee Dee, when he was just 18 years old. She thought he was 21—they met in a Kansas City dance club that was for people 21 and older. On their first date he admitted being only 18. She said that she had a baby daughter, Isabella, who had been born with Down syndrome. He was in high school, still a ways from the majors. They fell in love fast."
Albert, how did you get into a club for people over 21, when you were only 18?? Were you really 21, or did you lie and say you were 21?
Albert, why are you saying that baseball means nothing to you, and only Jesus?
Is holding out for 25 million, instead of taking 18...when the average salary of the US citizen is $35,000, in line with Jesus principles, that you say is the only thing that matters to you?
Or does baseball respect truly matter(which is what you are saying now during this contract time), and is more than just Jesus as you say... thus leaving open a motive for steroid use(the Bonds motive) that it seems you are trying to avoid by saying, "baseball means nothing. Only Jesus means something"?
So now in Albert's messiah article, there are two instances showing that he is a liar.
Albert is on the cover of SI saying to have faith in him, yet he has two instances of being a liar in that same article??? WTF. >>
I don't know anything about Pujols- for all I know the guy is a screaming A-hole. A lot of this posturing as a good guy (not only by him, but by most athletes) is likely a cash grab to garner more endorsement deals, and frankly I don't have a problem with that. If you can convince the world that you're Christ-on-wheels while spending your evenings at the Gold Club then good on ya.
Just getting back on track for a second, the real issue at hand here is whether Pujols is juiced. And I believe-- and I think will always believe-- that the calling card of any curious mind is that it's perpetually skeptical. If someone says "Clemente is the best RF ever', curious minds are skeptical. If someone says 'The Yankees always win because they have a bigger payroll', the curious mind is skeptical. And if someone says 'Pujols has to be juiced, because it makes no sense in this day and age that someone with that kind of talent could ever fall that far in the draft', then we still have to remain skeptical UNTIL evidence is produced that disproves the null hypothesis.
That, to me, is the fundamental principle of science and reason; we require evidence before we adopt a belief. And so, while if I had to lay my money down I would have to bet that Pujols is juiced to the 9's, I can't declare that 'he's juiced' due to the paucity of evidence. To do so, I think, is irresponsible. >>
Guy - You would make a good defense attorney.
I agree wtih ya.
I just see through some of his defenses....Albert, you ain't gonna pull the wool over my eyes dude with those reasons you give that you are clean. A bunch of B.S. and hiding behind faith.
The age is another issue...but usually when it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...
A lot of fans do buy into him though.
But, Albert could put an end, or at least a serious wound, into the people that believe he is on juice. All he has to do is follow through with what he said he would do...and that is "anything" in regard to testing to show that he is clean. But it is two years since then, and we are still waiting for even something, let alone anything.
<< <i>Boopotts, I would say I'm exactly where you are concerning this issue on every point. However, Saberman (while he may have at times passed off Pujols' possible/likely use as fact), I think we could all see the tenor of his posts and see that it was just strong opinion that he is trying to express. So I take it as that, an opinion. We all know there is no smoking gun out there where Pujols is concerned.
Saberman, while I would love to see Pujols and the rest of MLB's stars lead a crusade on tougher testing, we all know that's not going to happen. Yes, he might be hypocritical in his comments but that's what these people do. You could throw Jeter into the lot as well as many others, though most of them probably haven't been as vociferous as Pujols. >>
I think there is ZERO chance the MLBPA would ever let a player follow through on such a promise. There is also ZERO chance that said player would "out" the MLBPA about blocking him.
Working on the following: 1970 Baseball PSA, 1970-1976 Raw, World Series Subsets PSA, 1969 Expansion Teams PSA, Fleer World Series Sets, Texas Rangers Topps Run 1972-1989
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Digicat jokingly above asked if I thought Albert should become a priest. Actually, when you make a comment that baseball means nothing, and that Jesus means everything...then he probably should become a man of the cloth if he truly means those words. However, we all know that he is only saying that so that he eliminates the 'Bonds motive' of doing steroids.
He thinks by saying that baseball means nothing, that we will actually believe that since it means nothing to him, that he would have no reason to ever do steroids. I see right through that garbage...but a lot of people are drinking the Kool Aid. At least it isn't the Jim Jones Kool Aid.
Digicat jokingly above asked if I thought Albert should become a priest. Actually, when you make a comment that baseball means nothing, and that Jesus means everything...then he probably should become a man of the cloth if he truly means those words.
////////////////
I don't know what the 'over' is on the number of months before Albert Pujols swears off baseball to become a missionary, but whatever the line might be I'm backing up the truck on that bet. FWIW, it's a little weird that you're calling out Pujols to this extent. Sure, he's a phony- but who amongst the highest tier of American athletes isn't?
One other question (since you would know better than I). Ignoring the silly steriods issue for a minute, who will history regard as a better hitter- Pujols or Bonds? In other words, which hitter, according to the sabrmaticians, is/was more dominant?
<< <i>One other question (since you would know better than I). Ignoring the silly steriods issue for a minute, who will history regard as a better hitter- Pujols or Bonds? In other words, which hitter, according to the sabrmaticians, is/was more dominant? >>
Ignoring steroids, great as Albert is, he's not in Bonds' class as a hitter. Pujols' has been more consistent but Bonds' peak is far above Pujols'. Bonds holds the all-time single season records for:
- walks (232 - he's also #2 with 198, and #3 with 177)
- intentional walks (120 - he's also #2 and #3, #6, #6 again, and #9)
- OPS+ (268 - he's #2 and #3 in this)
- OPS (1.4217 - he's also #2 and #4 in this)
- On-Base % (.609 - he's also #2 in this)
- Slugging % (.863 - he's also #4 and #5 in this)
- Runs Created (230 - he's also #4 and #6 in this)
- Home Runs (73)
Pujols holds no single-season records.
Bonds also stole 514 bases, with a high of 52. Pujols has 75 in his entire career.
Bonds won 7 MVPs and should have 8, getting robbed the year Bonilla won his. Pujols has won 3, should have at least 4, maybe 5.
Bonds won 8 Gold Gloves and was considered an elite defender for most of his career. Pujols has won 2 and is never discussed as an elite defender.
In short, it brings into focus just what an amazing player Barry Bonds was - particularly in his 'roid-infested later years - that ALBERT FREAKING PUJOLS doesn't come close to what Barry accomplished.
Tabe
Me calling out Pujols instead of other phony players, probably results from the weird behavior of his fan base., and his own spewing of BS that is waist high deep.
Steriods aside, Bonds falls somewhere in the top five hitters of all time. He easily beats Pujols.
Some advanced Sabermetric measures....
Career Win Probability Added...which takes into the context of the at bat.
Bonds 128. Led league 10 times.
Pujols 59. Led leage 1 time.
Career OPS+
Bonds 182.....sustained over 12,606 plate appearances
Pujols 172.....sustained over 6,782 plate appearances
For OPS+, in other words, Pujols has to do another 10 years of what he has done already, and he will still be behind Bonds!
Wins Above Replacement(WAR)
BOnds 172
Pujols 83.8
WAR All Time Rankings:
1. Ruth 172
2. Bonds 171
3. Cobb 159
The all time leaders in Adjusted Batter Runs are:
1. RUth 1,382
2. Bonds 1,301
3. Williams 1,134
THat doesn't mean that Bonds is a better hitter than Ted WIlliams(for the obvious War Reasons), and for other reasons. Then the era's they were achieved in makes a difference. Both BOnds and Pujols had the luxury of the current live ball era(which are factors that enhance, besides that of steroids). But that is a pretty high ranking for some strong measurements.
We will see how Pujols plays out his next ten years. In order to almost equal Bonds in some of those measurements, he will need to produce the exact same over his next 6,700 platea apperances as he did in his first 6,700. Then that would only almost equal him as a hitter....and he will be listed at 41 at the end of that run. Of course, that age may be a couple years short.
BUt Bonds was a far superior base runner, and at least as good a defender and probably better. SO in essence, Pujols will never equal or surpass Bonds as a player in either peak or career measurement.
<< <i>Digicat jokingly above asked if I thought Albert should become a priest. Actually, when you make a comment that baseball means nothing, and that Jesus means everything...then he probably should become a man of the cloth if he truly means those words. >>
Perhaps A-Poo doesn't think that baseball interferes with his faith. Perhaps A-Poo was making a comparison.
Albert's Faith > Albert's baseball career
In that respect, and in context, A-Poo is using his faith (an established moral code) as a reason why he wouldn't cheat in baseball.
On that note, I think I could say "my career means nothing, my family means everything" and be 100% honest. It doesn't mean that I will go quit my job and become a stay-at-home dad. It just means that my family and the condition of it is far more important than anything related to my career.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
<< <i>Digicat jokingly above asked if I thought Albert should become a priest. Actually, when you make a comment that baseball means nothing, and that Jesus means everything...then he probably should become a man of the cloth if he truly means those words. >>
Perhaps A-Poo doesn't think that baseball interferes with his faith. Perhaps A-Poo was making a comparison.
Albert's Faith > Albert's baseball career
In that respect, and in context, A-Poo is using his faith (an established moral code) as a reason why he wouldn't cheat in baseball.
>>
Really? A faith is a good defense for that? So since a priest has great faith, I guess they have been innocent of all those wrong donigs to minors, because it is against the faith of Jesus? Having a faith in a religion has nothing to do with taking steroids, nor does it mean somebody who has that faith would not do steroids.
"Nothing", and "everything" are strong words. Nothing means nothing. It does not mean more or less important. Everything means everything.
Albert cares how much money he makes, and wants to be paid accordingly for the respect he deserves. ALbert cares how good he is viewed as a baseball player. Albert practices baseball a lot, and plays it a lot. Baseball does not mean nothing to him! Sure, it may not mean as much as Jesus to him...but certainly not nothing...otherwise he would not have actions that show it DOES mean something to him.
Since it DOES mean something to him, he cannot go around acting as if it means "NOTHING" to him, and then try and make us believe that since it means "nothing", that there is no point to take steroids to enhance something that means "nothing."
Also, he didn't say his family...it is a given that your family means more to you than your work, but that doesn't mean your work means nothing, like Albert said. Some people's work may indeed be nothing to them, because it is probably a crummy job. DOubtful Albert falls into that category.
"Nothing." Not much grey area there my friend. If there is an implied grey area, then it also opens up the motive for doing steroids to enhance it. He uses that "nothing" reason to try and close that motive. Some people bought it, cough, cough. I have not.
<< <i>Really? A faith is a good defense for that? So since a priest has great faith, I guess they have been innocent of all those wrong donigs to minors, because it is against the faith of Jesus?
>>
What value do you think "faith" has in someone's life? Do you believe that someone can derive their moral/ethical code from their faith, and use that code to determine what's right or wrong, and further, to choose "right" over "wrong"? If you don't feel that someone's faith can provide that kind of direction, then that's probably why you keep picking on this particular issue.
Anyways, A-Pu's trying to say that his faith is important to him, and defines his moral code. Typically, the Christian moral/ethical code prohibits lying and cheating. Fine, Albert lied about his age when he was a teenager. That's not a "gotcha" when it was done so far back in the past.
<< <i>"Nothing." Not much grey area there my friend. If there is an implied grey area, then it also opens up the motive for doing steroids to enhance it. He uses that "nothing" reason to try and close that motive. >>
In context, he used "baseball means nothing" along with "Jesus means everything", and both of those were said in context as to why he wouldn't cheat. The key here is using the nothing/everything comments together, not apart. I interpreted what Pujols said as being along the lines of: "Baseball is not so important to me that I will violate my moral or ethical code, as dictated by my faith, to get an advantage in it."
Obviously, baseball means "something", there's no getting around that. Being a professional athlete takes dedication and commitment. But when you compare stuff to things of greater importance, the smaller things tend to look even smaller.
Perhaps he should have his lawyers write his statements to the press in the future.
I'm not a Pujols fan, I'm not a Cardinals fan. If you want to talk about body growth, head size, etc, fine, I don't really care. However, I think that picking on his little statement of faith is totally misguided and flawed.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
Thank you for the responses. I agree that this analysis really does put Bonds' career in perspective. It's easy to forget (or to never understand, in my case) how dominant he really was.
I also agree, Hoop, on the creepiness of the Pujols cult. Although I'm not sure it's creepier than the Cult of Ichiro, all said and done.
So if my wife suspects I am cheating on her, I can just tell her sex means nothing to me and that Jesus means everyting...and I will be off the hook.
He is either lying about his "nothing" statement, or is simply inaccurate in his assessment. Either way, it leaves open the motive that doing steroids to better himself as a player is certainly a possibility....the exact motive he is trying to avoid by claiming baseball means nothing to him.
This is not a little nit picking thing. There are people with great faith who have done horrible things to children...so if he expects us to believe that "faith in Jesus" would prevent him from doing a minor transgression such as steroids, compared to those awful things that people of great faith have done...he is crazy.
<< <i>He is either lying about his "nothing" statement, or is simply inaccurate in his assessment. Either way, it leaves open the motive that doing steroids to better himself as a player is certainly a possibility....the exact motive he is trying to avoid by claiming baseball means nothing to him. >>
So what you're getting at is that there is no valid reason why a player would NOT cheat, and any reason given for NOT cheating is a lie that implies guilt?
<< <i>So if my wife suspects I am cheating on her, I can just tell her sex means nothing to me and that Jesus means everyting...and I will be off the hook. >>
If your relationship with your wife is so messed up that she suspects you're having an affair, then I don't think any single statement will get you off the hook.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>There are people with great faith who have done horrible things to children... >>
I would argue that they didn't actually have great faith but that's a whole different tangent.
Tabe
Anyway...we will probably never know for certain. But it is all the MLB players association fault.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Steve, I am sure some of that is happening now...maybe not in the exact technical terms, but when choosing mates or sperm donors, it plays a role. >>
Allegedly, China did it for Yao Ming. Both parents were hand picked and now his feet can't last more than 40 games a season.
Frankenathletesyndrome? >>
Really?
Is that for real...or you just messing around(aside from the created syndrome name). >>
It was something locals just accepted (be it a myth, gossip, or whatever) and occasionally discussed on the radio. Quick google search of ["yao ming" + parents + selected] came up with this:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/08/was-yao-ming-bred/
In 1963 Elston Howard beat out Al Kaline for the MVP.
Kalines 1963 Stats: .312 Average 27HR 101 RBI .375 On-Base pct. .514 Slugging pct.
Not taking anything away from Elston Howard, but,
check out the stats and such from that season!
I still cry on that one to this day!
Tony
KalineFan
Tabe
<< <i>Ok, I know its been a while since I jumped in, but.
In 1963 Elston Howard beat out Al Kaline for the MVP.
Kalines 1963 Stats: .312 Average 27HR 101 RBI .375 On-Base pct. .514 Slugging pct.
Not taking anything away from Elston Howard, but,
check out the stats and such from that season!
I still cry on that one to this day!
Tony
KalineFan >>
Thanks for the tidbit. I guess I learn something new about Albert Pujols everyday.
<< <i>
<< <i>Ok, I know its been a while since I jumped in, but.
In 1963 Elston Howard beat out Al Kaline for the MVP.
Kalines 1963 Stats: .312 Average 27HR 101 RBI .375 On-Base pct. .514 Slugging pct.
Not taking anything away from Elston Howard, but,
check out the stats and such from that season!
I still cry on that one to this day!
Tony
KalineFan >>
Thanks for the tidbit. I guess I learn something new about Albert Pujols everyday. >>
Pujols actually finished fourth that year behind Howard, Kaline & Ford. After all, he is 70 something years old.
Tabe
I think one of the custom card makers on this board should make a custom 1977 Topps 4 in 1 Pujols rookie card.
Steve