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St. Gaudens update

A while ago I said I would find out if the 1933 St. Gaudens double eagle would be encapsulated for the sale. Unless the winning bidder chooses to have it encapsulated by one of the services, the coin will remain raw. The source of my information is Dave Pickens, Director of Marketing for the Mint. Dave also said he is trying to get a spot on the Today show to talk about the sale, possibly having the Director on as well. I will post any other information I have concerning this sale. FYI, my own personal guess based upon zero information is that the sale price will be 8 million at the hammer.
Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.

Comments

  • krankykranky Posts: 8,709 ✭✭✭
    Great, I'm glad it will be raw, and I hope no grade is attached to it by the auction house. Otherwise you'll have people making wacky statements like "That's not worth $8 million unless it's two points higher." Like it would really matter for a one-of-a-kind coin! I figure it will get slabbed by the buyer, and cracked out a dozen times trying for an meaningless upgrade until it either PCGS or NGC caves in and upgrades it. It will be that 1804 dollar all over again.

    Wouldn't it be something if on the first resubmission the grading service confiscated the coin as illegal to own? image

    I wonder what the Mint guy will say on TV when asked how much the coin will bring at auction. I think your guess is only a little high, DeepCoin.

    New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.

  • What an interesting coin! I always wanted to believe there are more out there just waiting to surface should they be made clearly legal.
  • DeepCoinDeepCoin Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭
    Carl,

    If there are any others still out there, they will never be legal to own. That is what makes this unique. It is truely a pop 1 coin, not matter what. When the Mint auctions off this piece, they will collect whatever the winning bid is... lets say $8 million and also get $20 for the seniorage.

    The Mint's position (I believe, not certain of) is that no 1933 St. Gaudens has ever been released to the public and collecting the seniorage makes it an officially issued coin. No other 1933 would be able to state this and would be confiscated by the Treasury department.

    That is why this is truely a one of a kind coin.
    Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.


  • << <i>Wouldn't it be something if on the first resubmission the grading service confiscated the coin as illegal to own? >>



    A scarier thought would be that it would get lost "somewhere" at PCGS/who ever grades it, or that it came back with a huge fingerprint in a few months. I would pay to have PCGS fingerprint each person and find out who did it.

    Cameron Kiefer
  • HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,192 ✭✭✭✭✭
    DeepCoin --

    In the long run, I think there is a chance that the Treasury could change their view.

    I would love to have the coin, and it is probably unique, but I wouldn't view its uniqueness as a certainty!
    Higashiyama
  • merz2merz2 Posts: 2,474
    I had a thought.Suppose after the sale,the Smithsonian decides to sell one of the two they have to raise money for the Smithsoinian.Wouldn't that be great!!!!
    Don
    Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
  • boiler78boiler78 Posts: 3,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Don - My thought exactly. Museums have deaccensioned coins in the past. I personally think the Smithsonian should auction off ALL their duplicates and use the proceeds to build a display that could show more if not all of the collection. The display hasn't changed appreciably in 20 years and they have duplicates of countless rarities collecting dust in a basement somewhere. I doubt if the original benefactors had that in mind when they donated their collections to the museum. Heck how do we know if everything is still there?
  • merz2merz2 Posts: 2,474
    That is my sentiments exactly.The last time I was there the displays were mediocre at best.Considering all the coins they have,they could do much better!!!!!!!!!!
    Don
    Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
  • DeepCoinDeepCoin Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭
    A couple of thoughts on this. The Treasury department has not changed its mind on this in 60 some years, so I seriously doubt that any other existing examples of the 1933 St. Gaudens would be allowed to be owned. They confiscated quite a number of them in the 1940s I believe.

    It would be nice if the Smithsonian did a better job on display, but the chances of them ever selling a single coin are fairly remote. There is no incentive. I am only hoping the Mint gets a museum going in DC to display some of the more interesting coins in a better situation.

    I must confess to being ignorant about deaccession of coins. You stumped me there and my vocablulary is fairly robust, good job! So if boiler78 or someone could educate me, I would appreciate it.
    Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
  • merz2merz2 Posts: 2,474
    DC
    The Smithsonian's incentive would be the money.They just got funds from the sale of a Mint Commem did't they?What would be the difference?
    Don
    Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
  • DeepCoinDeepCoin Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭
    Don,

    The difference is that the profits from the sale of commemoratives comes from new coins sold, not existing inventory. It would be like selling off the Spirit of St. Louis in order to build a better Air/Space display.
    Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
  • DeepCoin,

    I went to the Smithsonian last October. Looking at the display, the coins are shoved in a corner of the third floor and are not displayed in any real logical sense.

    Supposedly, the Museum has multiple examples of some pieces, with the extras just being stored. Selling these rarities at auction would generate enough money so that the Museum could finance a quality display, and probably acquire a wider variety of examples.

    Keith
    Keith ™

  • boiler78boiler78 Posts: 3,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    DC- What good is existing inventory if no one is able to enjoy it? The Spirit of St. Louis is prominently displayed in the Air & Space museum which is clearly a different situation.
  • DeepCoinDeepCoin Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭
    A purely technical response would be that the Smithsonian could not sell one of its 1933 coins because they were never released into circulation. That is why when the coin is sold at auction the Mint will collect $20 seniorage on top of the winning bid.

    As far as the Mint is concerned that will be the only 1933 that is an officially released coin. All others will be confiscated. I know this sounds like bureaucratic legalese, but it is their position to the best of my knowledge.
    Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
  • boiler78boiler78 Posts: 3,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Mint made an exception for the Farouk coin and they could make an exception for the Smithsonian in the hypothetical case we are discussing here.
  • DeepCoinDeepCoin Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭
    Boiler78,

    The Mint did not make an exception. There was a lawsuit and the Mint settled. What happened is that sometime in the 40s the government issued a document allowing Farouk to take the coin out of the country. I think it was some kind of export license. Now that the government has "legitimatized" the coin in this manner, the owner believed it to be an "issued" coin.

    As a compromise, the Mint will allow the present owner to keep and/or sell the coin but it will be the only one. That is the whole concept behind collecting the $20 seniorage.

    If there had never been an export license issued, the Treasury Department would have confiscated the coin and melted it along with all the others. The two coins in the possession of the Smithsonian have never had the seniorage collected and thus have never been "issued".

    This is all kind of crazy, but they could only be sold if the Mint were to allow it. The Smithsonian could not unilaterally decide to sell the coin. I certainly agree that we could use some better displays of one of the better collections in the world and I am not against selling off one of the Smithsonians 1933 double eagles, it is just that I dont believe the Treasury department would agree with that if it ever came to pass and they hold the big hammer on this one.
    Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
  • boiler78boiler78 Posts: 3,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Deep coin- The "export license" granted for the Farouk coin was the exception that I was refering to.
  • DeepCoinDeepCoin Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭
    The State department granted the export license, not the Treasury department. That is why the Treasury department confiscated the coin when it got to New York and there was a court case (settled out of court) over whether or not this coin was legal to own.

    The State department's actions are what gave the coin some legitimacy, not the Mint. That is why I said it would not be likely to happen again. As far as the Mint is concerned, there was never an exception, but rather than fight in court they compromised. This was a unique situation.

    The final deal is that the Mint will get 50% of the auction proceeds plus $20.
    Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
  • boiler78boiler78 Posts: 3,060 ✭✭✭✭✭
    OK. Now I get it. There was no exception there was a compromise.
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