MikeInFL, your questions have no sincerity. Your mind is made up. Your way of thinking is dangerous in that it infers that the person with the better resume is correct.
Why do YOU think the president of PCGS is making it clear that it was his opinion expressed only and not one that signals a policy change in his company? Since you assume he is correct (and he may be!), why would he make this statement? I mean, what is the most logical explanation in your mind?
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
I think I got you confused with someone else who pops in my threads and always says " I bet it doesnt look as good in hand" When you made a comment about the image I assumed you were saying I juiced it. Once again my sincere apologies I absolutely was not trying to insult you in any way and I think it may have appeared that way. It appears I got you confused with someone else and took what you said the wrong way. Once again my apologies if I offended you or insinuated that you knew nothing those were not my intentions. >>
That was a 100% legitimate, sincere, admission of being wrong, AND an apology.
You don't see that too often on the internet. Good for you.
<< <i>MikeInFL, your questions have no sincerity. Your mind is made up. Your way of thinking is dangerous in that it infers that the person with the better resume is correct.
Why do YOU think the president of PCGS is making it clear that it was his opinion expressed only and not one that signals a policy change in his company? Since you assume he is correct (and he may be!), why would he make this statement? I mean, what is the most logical explanation in your mind? >>
Really, you know what's in my mind? lol
What we have here is a disagreement between two parties. One with a very strong resume and experience, but looking only at a picture. The other who is an unknown (to me), who has the coin in hand. Truly, I don't know who to believe, and my questions were to try and understand the experience level of RCToners.
As for your questions, it seems to me that Mr. Hall made some sweeping statements, including comments directed at a coin that is already in a PCGS holder, it seems rather logical to me that he would make such a disclaimer as to not weaken the view of PCGS graders or the PCGS brand.
What's your take?
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
In all seriousness I think you are correct. The PCGS president has undermined his graders and his brand with his sweeping opinion, although not much. I have seen too many times in other fields where the popular and highly esteemed expert was proven dead wrong in the end. So I like to keep an open mind and not challenge those who counter these experts too harshly. It's the popular and easy thing to do. We should be careful not to protect the expert and take part in group think.
Thank you for taking the time to clarify your thoughts.
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
In all seriousness I think you are correct. The PCGS president has undermined his graders and his brand with his sweeping opinion, although not much. I have seen too many times in other fields where the popular and highly esteemed expert was proven dead wrong in the end. So I like to keep an open mind and not challenge those who counter these experts too harshly. It's the popular and easy thing to do. We should be careful not to protect the expert and take part in group think.
Thank you for taking the time to clarify your thoughts. >>
You are welcome.
I agree. We do need to be careful with groupthink.
However, I'm not willing to dismiss someone's opinion (like Mr. Hall's, who has many decades of experience and a resume that speaks for itself) over the owner of said coin (who, incidentally, is trying to sell said coin on his website for almost 2x price guide numbers), particularly if we have no idea of the experience level of the one taking the contrary position (which was the point of my questions above, and, interestingly enough, as of yet unanswered).
So, while I'm as skeptical as anyone (and if you review my comments on this topic in other threads, I think you'll agree), I do think that the reputation and experience of those voicing opinions counts, and questions around this issue (experience) are quite pertinent to the discussion.
Do you disagree?....Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>stop trying to make common coins rare and expensive....you too Ike guys. >>
Not sure what this thread has to do with Ike's... but what do you feel Ike guys have done to make common coins rare and expensive?
Some Ike's may seem expensive for moderns, but it is obvious to anyone that has spent time with the series that the prices reflect conditional rarity and supply/demand.
At times there is a wide spread in ask prices, especially for varieties. This is mainly due to the owners' varying feel for value: public sales data is basically nonexistent, most varieties exchange hands in private transactions. They are only as expensive as someone is willing to pay.
For what it's worth, Soty27 (Chris) has acquired several of my toned coins in national auctions and posted them on his website. I consider his pictures to be fair representations of those coins.
Perhaps you missed my questions above. If so, please allow me to restate:
What's your numismatic resume? How long have you been collecting toned coins? How long have you been dealing them?
Since you said with 100% certainty that this coin is NT, why should we believe you over Mr. Hall?
Curiously yours...Mike >>
Mike ,
I saw your earlier questions and did not feel the need to dignify them with any sort of response. I am not asking you or anyone else to believe me over Mr Hall. Anyone in a position such as Mr Hall should realize that making a statement such as he did regarding toned peace dollars is just plain ignorant. You simply CAN NOT state that 100% of all peace dollars with any other color than yellow or gold are AT, it's simply just untrue. There are numerous reasons as to why peace dollars took longer to tone and toned in different ways than morgan dollars but they are in fact 90% silver and it's a fact that silver will tone in an array of colors. I find it very curious that Mr Hall stated clearly that ANY peace dollar with ANY other color than yellow or gold is AT but then contradicts himself later in threads by saying a certain coin is 50/50. I think a much better way for Mr Hall to state his opinion would have been to say that 95% or even 99% of colorful peace dollars are AT but to state 100% of them are AT is just silly. It makes no difference to me whether you agree with my opinion or not or whether anyone else does. People can all have a difference of opinion and people can agree to disagree on any opinion for any reason they feel. Once you are in a position such as Mr Hall I feel that you should simply state your opinion in a much more responsible manner. I stated my opinion in an open forum and so did Mr Hall-- everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it's perfectly fine with me. I am not here to change the way others think or to change anyones opinion; all that I would ever ask is to simply do as much research as possible regarding any hobby you invest time and money in and don't take the opinion of anyone as a fact no matter what position they hold because in the end it's still just an opinion.
Perhaps you missed my questions above. If so, please allow me to restate:
What's your numismatic resume? How long have you been collecting toned coins? How long have you been dealing them?
Since you said with 100% certainty that this coin is NT, why should we believe you over Mr. Hall?
Curiously yours...Mike >>
Mike ,
I saw your earlier questions and did not feel the need to dignify them with any sort of response. I am not asking you or anyone else to believe me over Mr Hall. Anyone in a position such as Mr Hall should realize that making a statement such as he did regarding toned peace dollars is just plain ignorant. You simply CAN NOT state that 100% of all peace dollars with any other color than yellow or gold are AT, it's simply just untrue. There are numerous reasons as to why peace dollars took longer to tone and toned in different ways than morgan dollars but they are in fact 90% silver and it's a fact that silver will tone in an array of colors. I find it very curious that Mr Hall stated clearly that ANY peace dollar with ANY other color than yellow or gold is AT but then contradicts himself later in threads by saying a certain coin is 50/50. I think a much better way for Mr Hall to state his opinion would have been to say that 95% or even 99% of colorful peace dollars are AT but to state 100% of them are AT is just silly. It makes no difference to me whether you agree with my opinion or not or whether anyone else does. People can all have a difference of opinion and people can agree to disagree on any opinion for any reason they feel. Once you are in a position such as Mr Hall I feel that you should simply state your opinion in a much more responsible manner. I stated my opinion in an open forum and so did Mr Hall-- everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it's perfectly fine with me. I am not here to change the way others think or to change anyones opinion; all that I would ever ask is to simply do as much research as possible regarding any hobby you invest time and money in and don't take the opinion of anyone as a fact no matter what position they hold because in the end it's still just an opinion. >>
All that is fine but most of us have an idea how long Mr. HAll has been doing this, why not let others know how long you have been? That may bring some insight for members and some may see fit to point out situations or happenings before you were into coins or into toners.
<< <i>All that is fine but most of us have an idea how long Mr. HAll has been doing this, why not let others know how long you have been? That may bring some insight for members and some may see fit to point out situations or happenings before you were into coins or into toners. >>
"While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's..."
That is long enough for new materials to be in contact with coins for long enough time to make them tone differently than how they toned in the 30 to 40 years up to 1960.
I mean, they could tone differently in the last 40 years than they did in the 40 years before Mr. Hall saw them.
The original Peace dollar is a very nice looking coin. AT or NT who cares. Its nice as you know we have already discussed many of your Peace Dollars listed. Many people may claim that peace dollars do not tone which is BS. 20 years ago I received a White Peace dollar as part of a promotion that was in a cardboard cut out similar to the Tidy Morgans and it toned over the 20 years very nicely. Some people may claim it is AT since I never removed it from the cardboard, but I never did anything with it other than leave it in the cardboard until my mother found it a few years ago. It looked very similar to yours, but had white centers.
Perhaps you missed my questions above. If so, please allow me to restate:
What's your numismatic resume? How long have you been collecting toned coins? How long have you been dealing them?
Since you said with 100% certainty that this coin is NT, why should we believe you over Mr. Hall?
Curiously yours...Mike >>
Mike ,
I saw your earlier questions and did not feel the need to dignify them with any sort of response. I am not asking you or anyone else to believe me over Mr Hall. ... >>
Then why post this thread?
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>Well its actually pretty clear this coin is 100% NT no questions. Its also clear that no matter how many facts you place in front of people they will always think what they want to think. Most people hear little storys about toning in a slab and get worried about any thing toned in a slab without ever doing research as to what a coin toned in a slab actually looks like. Then people make up things like market acceptable to save them from making a mistake and having to admit it. Keep up the good work PCGS you have lost all my buisness, I assume coin facts subscriptions went up after all the controversy although I assume that was really the point in the first place. >>
Well, actually, it is not "pretty clear" to me that this coin is 100% NT. Here's why I am really skeptical about toning on these coins and many others:
I've been a numismatist for over 60yrs. I have purchased, owned, sold, and looked thru thousands of Peace dollars in that time. In fact, I used to pick up and search thru $1000 bags at face value from my bank in the 1950's/1960's, looking for 1928P's and 1934's. Up until about 15-20yrs ago I VERY SELDOM ran across a deeply toned peace dollar, or many other "rainbow toned" pieces, for that matter. Now, with the "tone craze" they are coming out of the woodwork. Amazing, isn't it? To my way of thinking, artificial toning is just as harmful as cleaning, maybe even worse, because it is so deceptively done. I have nothing against toning, per se; but I will never pay a premium for a "rainbow toned" peace dollar, or modern coin.
Just my opinion. No disrespect intended. Now...flame away.
I'm the Proud recipient of a genuine "you suck" award dated 1/24/05. I was accepted into the "Circle of Trust" on 3/9/09.
I agree with nankraut's statement. I don't recall seeing any rainbow peace dollars back in the 80's. I wouldn't say there are none. Color pictures of coins were published during the 60's, 70's and 80's. Can anyone show a rainbow Peace dollar from then? It might be a heck of a challenge.
I agree with your earlier statement in MikeInFL
soty27! If you are a businessman, you would avoid getting in a wrestling match with anyone here, even if you know you are right. It's just not smart business. KNow what I mean?
tradedollarnut you are correct, you got me. David Hall is not the President of PCGS. I don't know what title he currently holds. I apologize. Some of the sources out there are outdated? ($450K in total compensation, not bad!) Would it be fair to say he wields considerable influence at PCGS, helped found the company, is on the payroll and probably owns a considerable number of shares? If so, you can understand why he attempted to separate his personal opinion on colorful peace dollars from PCGS policy. For the sake of this post, his title is really a technicality.
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
Perhaps you missed my questions above. If so, please allow me to restate:
What's your numismatic resume? How long have you been collecting toned coins? How long have you been dealing them?
Since you said with 100% certainty that this coin is NT, why should we believe you over Mr. Hall?
Curiously yours...Mike >>
Mike ,
I saw your earlier questions and did not feel the need to dignify them with any sort of response. I am not asking you or anyone else to believe me over Mr Hall. ... >>
Then why post this thread? >>
My point in posting this thread was made very clear early in the thread. I posted this to poke fun at another recent thread declaring all toned peace dollars are AT. In my opinion as stated before thats just silly. I would guess that somewhere around 98% of all colorfully toned peace dollars are in fact AT but to state 100% of them are is just stupidity IMO. The peace dollar in this thread was purchased from Jay King and like I said earlier, to me with the coin in hand its pretty clear its NT but to each there own.
Initially when Mr Hall posted his opinion I took that to believe that PCGS was no longer going to slab any peace dollar with color other then yellow or gold. Mr Hall has since clarified that by stating that it was simply his opinion and does not affect PCGS grading. So part of my reason was to poke fun at another thread and part of my reason for posting this was to find out what the grading stance would be.
Perhaps you missed my questions above. If so, please allow me to restate:
What's your numismatic resume? How long have you been collecting toned coins? How long have you been dealing them?
Since you said with 100% certainty that this coin is NT, why should we believe you over Mr. Hall?
Curiously yours...Mike >>
Mike ,
I saw your earlier questions and did not feel the need to dignify them with any sort of response. I am not asking you or anyone else to believe me over Mr Hall. ... >>
Then why post this thread? >>
My point in posting this thread was made very clear early in the thread. I posted this to poke fun at another recent thread declaring all toned peace dollars are AT. In my opinion as stated before thats just silly. I would guess that somewhere around 98% of all colorfully toned peace dollars are in fact AT but to state 100% of them are is just stupidity IMO. The peace dollar in this thread was purchased from Jay King and like I said earlier, to me with the coin in hand its pretty clear its NT but to each there own.
Initially when Mr Hall posted his opinion I took that to believe that PCGS was no longer going to slab any peace dollar with color other then yellow or gold. Mr Hall has since clarified that by stating that it was simply his opinion and does not affect PCGS grading. So part of my reason was to poke fun at another thread and part of my reason for posting this was to find out what the grading stance would be. >>
So it wasn't because you were disappointed that Mr. Hall dissed your inventory? That's almost good as your rationale for not discussing your depth of experience.
Before I was skeptical, now I just don't believe you. And what's worse is that I really wish you had been truthful and forthright -- the toner market needs that. It doesn't need more sidestepping the truth. It doesn't need ignoring the tough questions.
Really, how can anyone trust that you're selling them good coins when your background is off limits?
Are your potential customers not worthy of a straight answer, or will the straight answer lose potential customers?
Listen, I would be just as angry as you if Mr. Hall dissed my coins, but to pound your chest about how many thousands of dollars of toned coins you sell and how you see more of them than most, then not answer very straightforward questions that could expose your relative experience to the one whose comments you found "silly" and "stupid" is more than a bit disingenuous to me.
And I suspect that I'm not the only one.
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>p.s. is it 95% or 98% of colorful peace dollars you think are AT? >>
I didnt take what Mr Hall said as a personal attack. I think I own a whopping ten toned peace dollars. I am not a fan of toned peace dollars as I simply dont find the toning on most of them that eye appealing. Like previously stated I would believe that roughly 95 to 98% of all toned peace dollars are in fact AT. As far as my numismatic background Ive been a collector basically all of my life, 25 plus years, My dad was an avid collector most of his life and that was how I was turned on to coins. 95% of the coins I deal in are toned coins of all denominations. I travel to just about every major show every year looking for eye appealing coins. Numerous coins I deal with do not make it to my website and are not offered for sale in an open venue. My website is updated roughly 5 times a week with new inventory. I have been a full time dealer for a very short time, roughly 3 years or so but before that I was dealing part time as well as collecting. I've only recently jumped into the "online" coin world. Mr Hall undoubtedly has more experience than I do and has been in the numismatic world longer than I have. That being said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion-- he has his and I have mine.
Thank you for the clarification. I agree. I think we all have to form our own opinions, and appreciate you answering the question allowing me to form my own. Take care...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i> I would guess that somewhere around 98% of all colorfully toned peace dollars are in fact AT >>
So this NGC64 off your site....... what category do you put this in?
>>
Looks NT to me...this is just the type of toning I would expect on a peace dollar...splatchy pastel toning that's not particular attractive when stacked up against other denominations
What are your thoughts on it stman...I assume you believe AT?
I still have a hard time with understanding the opinions of every single poster including mr. Hall who are determining that these toned Peace dollars are AT or must be AT based on what was seen in the 60's.......I accept the opinion.....but I just can't grasp the concept logically since we are talking about 50 years and we all know that even clad coins could tone up in 50 years...and with silver coins it's almost a given that they will tone up over that amount of time
What I do agree with is that a high percentage of colorful toned Peace dollars we see today are AT......and by this I am more specifically pointed my comments towards the raw population vs those coins slabbed by the top TPGs. I think the percentage of PCGS and NGC slabbed AT peace dollars has to be small based on what I have seen in the past 5 years in particular but it would be nearly impossible to quantify an exact percentage......but if I must based on my viewing of these coins in all sales venues (shops), shows, and auctions....I believe the percentage to be less than 10% and possibly even south of 5%. Raw rainbow peace dollars would probably be in the 98+ % AT range based on Ebay alone. I have been actively looking for a nicely toned Peace dollar for at least the past 4 or 5 years so I have searched extensively and while I do come across some nice NT examples...obviously the costs are a tough pill to swallow even for a toned coin fanatic like myself. I almost purchased a few examples from Ron Sirna several years ago and I believe I have made Jeremy (Airplanenut) a few offers on his lovely example.
I would never presume to know a fraction of what David Hall knows on the subject of coins and coin grading in general, however based on every day of the past 5+ years being focused on nothing but toned coin purchases, sales on Ebay, and hunting for that next diamond in the rough I feel that I am more than qualified to state that in my personal experience Mr.Hall's original statment/opinion about all toned Peace dollars being AT comes up a bit short.
Now since I have decided that no one else is allowed to have an opinion on the subject might I request that the mods lock this thread so I can get the last word
From this image I'm not sure how I feel about it. I collected and searched for toned Peace$ myself for years. This coin looking kind of the same on both sides and the way some of the color transitions especially on the reverse would give me good enough reason to pass on the coin if I was looking for one of these. I would want to see how the luster flows, and if the color was deep or if it kinda looked like an oil slick at certain angles.
I asked what the OP thought of the coin since he mentioned he thought 98% of colorful Peace$ were AT........ does he think all his ones for sale fall into the 2% that are NT.
Edit to add, I am talking about the coin I linked.
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
<< <i> I would guess that somewhere around 98% of all colorfully toned peace dollars are in fact AT >>
So this NGC64 off your site....... what category do you put this in?
>>
Looks NT to me...this is just the type of toning I would expect on a peace dollar...splatchy pastel toning that's not particular attractive when stacked up against other denominations
What are your thoughts on it stman...I assume you believe AT?
I still have a hard time with understanding the opinions of every single poster including mr. Hall who are determining that these toned Peace dollars are AT or must be AT based on what was seen in the 60's.......I accept the opinion.....but I just can't grasp the concept logically since we are talking about 50 years and we all know that even clad coins could tone up in 50 years...and with silver coins it's almost a given that they will tone up over that amount of time
What I do agree with is that a high percentage of colorful toned Peace dollars we see today are AT......and by this I am more specifically pointed my comments towards the raw population vs those coins slabbed by the top TPGs. I think the percentage of PCGS and NGC slabbed AT peace dollars has to be small based on what I have seen in the past 5 years in particular but it would be nearly impossible to quantify an exact percentage......but if I must based on my viewing of these coins in all sales venues (shops), shows, and auctions....I believe the percentage to be less than 10% and possibly even south of 5%. Raw rainbow peace dollars would probably be in the 98+ % AT range based on Ebay alone. I have been actively looking for a nicely toned Peace dollar for at least the past 4 or 5 years so I have searched extensively and while I do come across some nice NT examples...obviously the costs are a tough pill to swallow even for a toned coin fanatic like myself. I almost purchased a few examples from Ron Sirna several years ago and I believe I have made Jeremy (Airplanenut) a few offers on his lovely example.
I would never presume to know a fraction of what David Hall knows on the subject of coins and coin grading in general, however based on every day of the past 5+ years being focused on nothing but toned coin purchases, sales on Ebay, and hunting for that next diamond in the rough I feel that I am more than qualified to state that in my personal experience Mr.Hall's original statment/opinion about all toned Peace dollars being AT comes up a bit short.
Now since I have decided that no one else is allowed to have an opinion on the subject might I request that the mods lock this thread so I can get the last word >>
Take this for what it's worth but coins like that is why people don't take toners seriously. Everyone in the room knows that was exposed to some chemical/heat/moisture or combo of said variables ( inadvertently or on purpose)and got like that in the last couple of years. You are blinded by your own interests if you think that it is mint bag toning or album toning or whatever form of "NT" you hope stays market acceptable. That is the VERY kind of coin DH was talking about. That is the very kind of POS that has fuled the coin doctors and made most of the problem for fans of color. Any time some one can buy a 15$ coin and filp it for hundreds or more. Why do I bother.
<< <i> I would guess that somewhere around 98% of all colorfully toned peace dollars are in fact AT >>
So this NGC64 off your site....... what category do you put this in?
>>
Looks NT to me...this is just the type of toning I would expect on a peace dollar...splatchy pastel toning that's not particular attractive when stacked up against other denominations
What are your thoughts on it stman...I assume you believe AT?
I still have a hard time with understanding the opinions of every single poster including mr. Hall who are determining that these toned Peace dollars are AT or must be AT based on what was seen in the 60's.......I accept the opinion.....but I just can't grasp the concept logically since we are talking about 50 years and we all know that even clad coins could tone up in 50 years...and with silver coins it's almost a given that they will tone up over that amount of time
What I do agree with is that a high percentage of colorful toned Peace dollars we see today are AT......and by this I am more specifically pointed my comments towards the raw population vs those coins slabbed by the top TPGs. I think the percentage of PCGS and NGC slabbed AT peace dollars has to be small based on what I have seen in the past 5 years in particular but it would be nearly impossible to quantify an exact percentage......but if I must based on my viewing of these coins in all sales venues (shops), shows, and auctions....I believe the percentage to be less than 10% and possibly even south of 5%. Raw rainbow peace dollars would probably be in the 98+ % AT range based on Ebay alone. I have been actively looking for a nicely toned Peace dollar for at least the past 4 or 5 years so I have searched extensively and while I do come across some nice NT examples...obviously the costs are a tough pill to swallow even for a toned coin fanatic like myself. I almost purchased a few examples from Ron Sirna several years ago and I believe I have made Jeremy (Airplanenut) a few offers on his lovely example.
I would never presume to know a fraction of what David Hall knows on the subject of coins and coin grading in general, however based on every day of the past 5+ years being focused on nothing but toned coin purchases, sales on Ebay, and hunting for that next diamond in the rough I feel that I am more than qualified to state that in my personal experience Mr.Hall's original statment/opinion about all toned Peace dollars being AT comes up a bit short.
Now since I have decided that no one else is allowed to have an opinion on the subject might I request that the mods lock this thread so I can get the last word >>
Take this for what it's worth but coins like that is why people don't take toners seriously. Everyone in the room knows that was exposed to some chemical/heat/moisture or combo of said variables ( inadvertently or on purpose)and got like that in the last couple of years. You are blinded by your own interests if you think that it is mint bag toning or album toning or whatever form of "NT" you hope stays market acceptable. That is the VERY kind of coin DH was talking about. That is the very kind of POS that has fuled the coin doctors and made most of the problem for fans of color. Any time some one can buy a 15$ coin and filp it for hundreds or more. Why do I bother. >>
I have no idea why you feel the need to quote my posts and then make the same blanket statments some are up in arms about.....my interest in toned coins has not clouded my judgement of this issue at all and I believe I stated my thoughts on the percentage of AT coins in the post you quoted. Your stating the coin has obvioulsy had help in the last few years is just as crazy if I swore up and down that it has not. The bottom line is that neither of us knows the truth for sure I simply stated that the coin looked ok to me and since I don't find it attractive I would not purchase said coin. Since stman asked the question of the Op I thought I would see what he thought.....whether his opinion is AT or NT has no bearing on the coin as I believe he even states he would want to see the coin in hand to judge depth of color and luster....as I would expect any reasonable collector to do before attempting to make factual statements based on no facts other than an image.
Your asertion that toners aren't takin seriously is your opinion.....the facts don't support your opinion becuase these coins sell for many multiples of guide and are the reason coin doctors are in business....make no mistake there is a ready and waiting purchasing base ready to gobble these coins up when they hit the market. You don't have to like it...frankly I don't really care but you can't deny it or we would not be having these AT/NT debates. If these coins were selling for 20% of book then plenty of folks would ignore the situation all together.....the fact that many of these coins legit and not legit pull big money is a burr in your side....why I have no clue? I don't particular like 3 cent nickels...wouldn't want to own one.....but if a collector wants to shell out money to purchase one...what business is it of mine, after all it's not my money? So you don't like toned coins....don't buy them ...seems simple enough.
As for the coin in question...I never stated it was album toned and bag toned so I am not blinded by anything, I don't own the coin, I don't even own a Peace dollar....I simply provided an opinion based on the photo, no more no less and I assure you that I have no magic crystal ball like yourself which obviously gives you the power to not only know where this coin has been and what it's been exposed to but which also allows you to know that every member of PCGS agrees with your statement "Everyone in the room knows that was exposed to some chemical/heat/moisture"
Comments
Why do YOU think the president of PCGS is making it clear that it was his opinion expressed only and not one that signals a policy change in his company? Since you assume he is correct (and he may be!), why would he make this statement? I mean, what is the most logical explanation in your mind?
<< <i>
I think I got you confused with someone else who pops in my threads and always says " I bet it doesnt look as good in hand" When you made a comment about the image I assumed you were saying I juiced it. Once again my sincere apologies I absolutely was not trying to insult you in any way and I think it may have appeared that way. It appears I got you confused with someone else and took what you said the wrong way. Once again my apologies if I offended you or insinuated that you knew nothing those were not my intentions. >>
That was a 100% legitimate, sincere, admission of being wrong, AND an apology.
You don't see that too often on the internet. Good for you.
<< <i>MikeInFL, your questions have no sincerity. Your mind is made up. Your way of thinking is dangerous in that it infers that the person with the better resume is correct.
Why do YOU think the president of PCGS is making it clear that it was his opinion expressed only and not one that signals a policy change in his company? Since you assume he is correct (and he may be!), why would he make this statement? I mean, what is the most logical explanation in your mind? >>
Really, you know what's in my mind? lol
What we have here is a disagreement between two parties. One with a very strong resume and experience, but looking only at a picture. The other who is an unknown (to me), who has the coin in hand. Truly, I don't know who to believe, and my questions were to try and understand the experience level of RCToners.
As for your questions, it seems to me that Mr. Hall made some sweeping statements, including comments directed at a coin that is already in a PCGS holder, it seems rather logical to me that he would make such a disclaimer as to not weaken the view of PCGS graders or the PCGS brand.
What's your take?
In all seriousness I think you are correct. The PCGS president has undermined his graders and his brand with his sweeping opinion, although not much. I have seen too many times in other fields where the popular and highly esteemed expert was proven dead wrong in the end. So I like to keep an open mind and not challenge those who counter these experts too harshly. It's the popular and easy thing to do. We should be careful not to protect the expert and take part in group think.
Thank you for taking the time to clarify your thoughts.
<< <i>I know you so well!
In all seriousness I think you are correct. The PCGS president has undermined his graders and his brand with his sweeping opinion, although not much. I have seen too many times in other fields where the popular and highly esteemed expert was proven dead wrong in the end. So I like to keep an open mind and not challenge those who counter these experts too harshly. It's the popular and easy thing to do. We should be careful not to protect the expert and take part in group think.
Thank you for taking the time to clarify your thoughts.
You are welcome.
I agree. We do need to be careful with groupthink.
However, I'm not willing to dismiss someone's opinion (like Mr. Hall's, who has many decades of experience and a resume that speaks for itself) over the owner of said coin (who, incidentally, is trying to sell said coin on his website for almost 2x price guide numbers), particularly if we have no idea of the experience level of the one taking the contrary position (which was the point of my questions above, and, interestingly enough, as of yet unanswered).
So, while I'm as skeptical as anyone (and if you review my comments on this topic in other threads, I think you'll agree), I do think that the reputation and experience of those voicing opinions counts, and questions around this issue (experience) are quite pertinent to the discussion.
Do you disagree?....Mike
<< <i>
<< <i>stop trying to make common coins rare and expensive....you too Ike guys. >>
Not sure what this thread has to do with Ike's... but what do you feel Ike guys have done to make common coins rare and expensive?
Some Ike's may seem expensive for moderns, but it is obvious to anyone that has spent time with the series that the prices reflect conditional rarity and supply/demand.
At times there is a wide spread in ask prices, especially for varieties. This is mainly due to the owners' varying feel for value: public sales data is basically nonexistent, most varieties exchange hands in private transactions. They are only as expensive as someone is willing to pay.
How do you view this differently? >>
I was just kidding Ike's are the best ;D
<< <i>All I'm going to add to this interesting discussion is that HRH is not the President of PCGS. Carry on. >>
Emperor of PCGS?!?
Perhaps you missed my questions above. If so, please allow me to restate:
What's your numismatic resume? How long have you been collecting toned coins? How long have you been dealing them?
Since you said with 100% certainty that this coin is NT, why should we believe you over Mr. Hall?
Curiously yours...Mike
<< <i>Chris/RCToners,
Perhaps you missed my questions above. If so, please allow me to restate:
What's your numismatic resume? How long have you been collecting toned coins? How long have you been dealing them?
Since you said with 100% certainty that this coin is NT, why should we believe you over Mr. Hall?
Curiously yours...Mike >>
Mike ,
I saw your earlier questions and did not feel the need to dignify them with any sort of response. I am not asking you or anyone else to believe me over Mr Hall. Anyone in a position such as Mr Hall should realize that making a statement such as he did regarding toned peace dollars is just plain ignorant. You simply CAN NOT state that 100% of all peace dollars with any other color than yellow or gold are AT, it's simply just untrue. There are numerous reasons as to why peace dollars took longer to tone and toned in different ways than morgan dollars but they are in fact 90% silver and it's a fact that silver will tone in an array of colors. I find it very curious that Mr Hall stated clearly that ANY peace dollar with ANY other color than yellow or gold is AT but then contradicts himself later in threads by saying a certain coin is 50/50. I think a much better way for Mr Hall to state his opinion would have been to say that 95% or even 99% of colorful peace dollars are AT but to state 100% of them are AT is just silly. It makes no difference to me whether you agree with my opinion or not or whether anyone else does. People can all have a difference of opinion and people can agree to disagree on any opinion for any reason they feel. Once you are in a position such as Mr Hall I feel that you should simply state your opinion in a much more responsible manner. I stated my opinion in an open forum and so did Mr Hall-- everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it's perfectly fine with me. I am not here to change the way others think or to change anyones opinion; all that I would ever ask is to simply do as much research as possible regarding any hobby you invest time and money in and don't take the opinion of anyone as a fact no matter what position they hold because in the end it's still just an opinion.
<< <i>Well its actually pretty clear this coin is 100% NT no questions
I fail to see how anyone can draw such a conclusion.
I personally don't know either way, but if it looks like the pic it's kinda fugly. >>
I agree. I think the coin is ugly, I don't care if it's AT or NT.
<< <i>
<< <i>Chris/RCToners,
Perhaps you missed my questions above. If so, please allow me to restate:
What's your numismatic resume? How long have you been collecting toned coins? How long have you been dealing them?
Since you said with 100% certainty that this coin is NT, why should we believe you over Mr. Hall?
Curiously yours...Mike >>
Mike ,
I saw your earlier questions and did not feel the need to dignify them with any sort of response. I am not asking you or anyone else to believe me over Mr Hall. Anyone in a position such as Mr Hall should realize that making a statement such as he did regarding toned peace dollars is just plain ignorant. You simply CAN NOT state that 100% of all peace dollars with any other color than yellow or gold are AT, it's simply just untrue. There are numerous reasons as to why peace dollars took longer to tone and toned in different ways than morgan dollars but they are in fact 90% silver and it's a fact that silver will tone in an array of colors. I find it very curious that Mr Hall stated clearly that ANY peace dollar with ANY other color than yellow or gold is AT but then contradicts himself later in threads by saying a certain coin is 50/50. I think a much better way for Mr Hall to state his opinion would have been to say that 95% or even 99% of colorful peace dollars are AT but to state 100% of them are AT is just silly. It makes no difference to me whether you agree with my opinion or not or whether anyone else does. People can all have a difference of opinion and people can agree to disagree on any opinion for any reason they feel. Once you are in a position such as Mr Hall I feel that you should simply state your opinion in a much more responsible manner. I stated my opinion in an open forum and so did Mr Hall-- everyone is entitled to their own opinion and it's perfectly fine with me. I am not here to change the way others think or to change anyones opinion; all that I would ever ask is to simply do as much research as possible regarding any hobby you invest time and money in and don't take the opinion of anyone as a fact no matter what position they hold because in the end it's still just an opinion. >>
All that is fine but most of us have an idea how long Mr. HAll has been doing this, why not let others know how long you have been? That may bring some insight for members and some may see fit to point out situations or happenings before you were into coins or into toners.
<< <i>All that is fine but most of us have an idea how long Mr. HAll has been doing this, why not let others know how long you have been? That may bring some insight for members and some may see fit to point out situations or happenings before you were into coins or into toners. >>
"While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's..."
That is long enough for new materials to be in contact with coins for long enough time to make them tone differently than how they toned in the 30 to 40 years up to 1960.
I mean, they could tone differently in the last 40 years than they did in the 40 years before Mr. Hall saw them.
The original Peace dollar is a very nice looking coin. AT or NT who cares. Its nice as you know we have already discussed many of your Peace Dollars listed.
Many people may claim that peace dollars do not tone which is BS. 20 years ago I received a White Peace dollar as part of a promotion that was in a cardboard cut out similar to the Tidy Morgans and it toned over the 20 years very nicely. Some people may claim it is AT since I never removed it from the cardboard, but I never did anything with it other than leave it in the cardboard until my mother found it a few years ago. It looked very similar to yours, but had white centers.
Peace dollars do tone over time naturally.
<< <i>
<< <i>Chris/RCToners,
Perhaps you missed my questions above. If so, please allow me to restate:
What's your numismatic resume? How long have you been collecting toned coins? How long have you been dealing them?
Since you said with 100% certainty that this coin is NT, why should we believe you over Mr. Hall?
Curiously yours...Mike >>
Mike ,
I saw your earlier questions and did not feel the need to dignify them with any sort of response. I am not asking you or anyone else to believe me over Mr Hall.
...
>>
Then why post this thread?
<< <i>Well its actually pretty clear this coin is 100% NT no questions. Its also clear that no matter how many facts you place in front of people they will always think what they want to think. Most people hear little storys about toning in a slab and get worried about any thing toned in a slab without ever doing research as to what a coin toned in a slab actually looks like. Then people make up things like market acceptable to save them from making a mistake and having to admit it. Keep up the good work PCGS you have lost all my buisness, I assume coin facts subscriptions went up after all the controversy although I assume that was really the point in the first place. >>
Well, actually, it is not "pretty clear" to me that this coin is 100% NT. Here's why I am really skeptical about toning on these coins and many others:
I've been a numismatist for over 60yrs. I have purchased, owned, sold, and looked thru thousands of Peace dollars in that time. In fact, I used to pick up and search thru $1000 bags at face value from my bank in the 1950's/1960's, looking for 1928P's and 1934's. Up until about 15-20yrs ago I VERY SELDOM ran across a deeply toned peace dollar, or many other "rainbow toned" pieces, for that matter. Now, with the "tone craze" they are coming out of the woodwork. Amazing, isn't it? To my way of thinking, artificial toning is just as harmful as cleaning, maybe even worse, because it is so deceptively done. I have nothing against toning, per se; but I will never pay a premium for a "rainbow toned" peace dollar, or modern coin.
Just my opinion. No disrespect intended. Now...flame away.
I agree with your earlier statement in MikeInFL
soty27! If you are a businessman, you would avoid getting in a wrestling match with anyone here, even if you know you are right. It's just not smart business. KNow what I mean?
tradedollarnut you are correct, you got me. David Hall is not the President of PCGS. I don't know what title he currently holds. I apologize. Some of the sources out there are outdated? ($450K in total compensation, not bad!) Would it be fair to say he wields considerable influence at PCGS, helped found the company, is on the payroll and probably owns a considerable number of shares? If so, you can understand why he attempted to separate his personal opinion on colorful peace dollars from PCGS policy. For the sake of this post, his title is really a technicality.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Chris/RCToners,
Perhaps you missed my questions above. If so, please allow me to restate:
What's your numismatic resume? How long have you been collecting toned coins? How long have you been dealing them?
Since you said with 100% certainty that this coin is NT, why should we believe you over Mr. Hall?
Curiously yours...Mike >>
Mike ,
I saw your earlier questions and did not feel the need to dignify them with any sort of response. I am not asking you or anyone else to believe me over Mr Hall.
...
>>
Then why post this thread? >>
My point in posting this thread was made very clear early in the thread. I posted this to poke fun at another recent thread declaring all toned peace dollars are AT. In my opinion as stated before thats just silly. I would guess that somewhere around 98% of all colorfully toned peace dollars are in fact AT but to state 100% of them are is just stupidity IMO. The peace dollar in this thread was purchased from Jay King and like I said earlier, to me with the coin in hand its pretty clear its NT but to each there own.
Initially when Mr Hall posted his opinion I took that to believe that PCGS was no longer going to slab any peace dollar with color other then yellow or gold. Mr Hall has since clarified that by stating that it was simply his opinion and does not affect PCGS grading. So part of my reason was to poke fun at another thread and part of my reason for posting this was to find out what the grading stance would be.
<< <i>
Agreed
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Chris/RCToners,
Perhaps you missed my questions above. If so, please allow me to restate:
What's your numismatic resume? How long have you been collecting toned coins? How long have you been dealing them?
Since you said with 100% certainty that this coin is NT, why should we believe you over Mr. Hall?
Curiously yours...Mike >>
Mike ,
I saw your earlier questions and did not feel the need to dignify them with any sort of response. I am not asking you or anyone else to believe me over Mr Hall.
...
>>
Then why post this thread? >>
My point in posting this thread was made very clear early in the thread. I posted this to poke fun at another recent thread declaring all toned peace dollars are AT. In my opinion as stated before thats just silly. I would guess that somewhere around 98% of all colorfully toned peace dollars are in fact AT but to state 100% of them are is just stupidity IMO. The peace dollar in this thread was purchased from Jay King and like I said earlier, to me with the coin in hand its pretty clear its NT but to each there own.
Initially when Mr Hall posted his opinion I took that to believe that PCGS was no longer going to slab any peace dollar with color other then yellow or gold. Mr Hall has since clarified that by stating that it was simply his opinion and does not affect PCGS grading. So part of my reason was to poke fun at another thread and part of my reason for posting this was to find out what the grading stance would be. >>
So it wasn't because you were disappointed that Mr. Hall dissed your inventory? That's almost good as your rationale for not discussing your depth of experience.
Before I was skeptical, now I just don't believe you. And what's worse is that I really wish you had been truthful and forthright -- the toner market needs that. It doesn't need more sidestepping the truth. It doesn't need ignoring the tough questions.
Really, how can anyone trust that you're selling them good coins when your background is off limits?
Are your potential customers not worthy of a straight answer, or will the straight answer lose potential customers?
Listen, I would be just as angry as you if Mr. Hall dissed my coins, but to pound your chest about how many thousands of dollars of toned coins you sell and how you see more of them than most, then not answer very straightforward questions that could expose your relative experience to the one whose comments you found "silly" and "stupid" is more than a bit disingenuous to me.
And I suspect that I'm not the only one.
that at least 127% of all Peace Dollars are AT.
The only two NT Peace Dollars, were lost in a fire.
Camelot
<< <i>p.s. is it 95% or 98% of colorful peace dollars you think are AT? >>
I didnt take what Mr Hall said as a personal attack. I think I own a whopping ten toned peace dollars. I am not a fan of toned peace dollars as I simply dont find the toning on most of them that eye appealing. Like previously stated I would believe that roughly 95 to 98% of all toned peace dollars are in fact AT. As far as my numismatic background Ive been a collector basically all of my life, 25 plus years, My dad was an avid collector most of his life and that was how I was turned on to coins. 95% of the coins I deal in are toned coins of all denominations. I travel to just about every major show every year looking for eye appealing coins. Numerous coins I deal with do not make it to my website and are not offered for sale in an open venue. My website is updated roughly 5 times a week with new inventory. I have been a full time dealer for a very short time, roughly 3 years or so but before that I was dealing part time as well as collecting. I've only recently jumped into the "online" coin world. Mr Hall undoubtedly has more experience than I do and has been in the numismatic world longer than I have. That being said, everyone is entitled to their own opinion-- he has his and I have mine.
<< <i> I would guess that somewhere around 98% of all colorfully toned peace dollars are in fact AT >>
So this NGC64 off your site....... what category do you put this in?
- Jim
<< <i>
<< <i> I would guess that somewhere around 98% of all colorfully toned peace dollars are in fact AT >>
So this NGC64 off your site....... what category do you put this in?
Looks NT to me...this is just the type of toning I would expect on a peace dollar...splatchy pastel toning that's not particular attractive when stacked up against other denominations
What are your thoughts on it stman...I assume you believe AT?
I still have a hard time with understanding the opinions of every single poster including mr. Hall who are determining that these toned Peace dollars are AT or must be AT based on what was seen in the 60's.......I accept the opinion.....but I just can't grasp the concept logically since we are talking about 50 years and we all know that even clad coins could tone up in 50 years...and with silver coins it's almost a given that they will tone up over that amount of time
What I do agree with is that a high percentage of colorful toned Peace dollars we see today are AT......and by this I am more specifically pointed my comments towards the raw population vs those coins slabbed by the top TPGs. I think the percentage of PCGS and NGC slabbed AT peace dollars has to be small based on what I have seen in the past 5 years in particular but it would be nearly impossible to quantify an exact percentage......but if I must based on my viewing of these coins in all sales venues (shops), shows, and auctions....I believe the percentage to be less than 10% and possibly even south of 5%. Raw rainbow peace dollars would probably be in the 98+ % AT range based on Ebay alone. I have been actively looking for a nicely toned Peace dollar for at least the past 4 or 5 years so I have searched extensively and while I do come across some nice NT examples...obviously the costs are a tough pill to swallow even for a toned coin fanatic like myself. I almost purchased a few examples from Ron Sirna several years ago and I believe I have made Jeremy (Airplanenut) a few offers on his lovely example.
I would never presume to know a fraction of what David Hall knows on the subject of coins and coin grading in general, however based on every day of the past 5+ years being focused on nothing but toned coin purchases, sales on Ebay, and hunting for that next diamond in the rough I feel that I am more than qualified to state that in my personal experience Mr.Hall's original statment/opinion about all toned Peace dollars being AT comes up a bit short.
Now since I have decided that no one else is allowed to have an opinion on the subject might I request that the mods lock this thread so I can get the last word
I asked what the OP thought of the coin since he mentioned he thought 98% of colorful Peace$ were AT........ does he think all his ones for sale fall into the 2% that are NT.
Edit to add, I am talking about the coin I linked.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> I would guess that somewhere around 98% of all colorfully toned peace dollars are in fact AT >>
So this NGC64 off your site....... what category do you put this in?
Looks NT to me...this is just the type of toning I would expect on a peace dollar...splatchy pastel toning that's not particular attractive when stacked up against other denominations
What are your thoughts on it stman...I assume you believe AT?
I still have a hard time with understanding the opinions of every single poster including mr. Hall who are determining that these toned Peace dollars are AT or must be AT based on what was seen in the 60's.......I accept the opinion.....but I just can't grasp the concept logically since we are talking about 50 years and we all know that even clad coins could tone up in 50 years...and with silver coins it's almost a given that they will tone up over that amount of time
What I do agree with is that a high percentage of colorful toned Peace dollars we see today are AT......and by this I am more specifically pointed my comments towards the raw population vs those coins slabbed by the top TPGs. I think the percentage of PCGS and NGC slabbed AT peace dollars has to be small based on what I have seen in the past 5 years in particular but it would be nearly impossible to quantify an exact percentage......but if I must based on my viewing of these coins in all sales venues (shops), shows, and auctions....I believe the percentage to be less than 10% and possibly even south of 5%. Raw rainbow peace dollars would probably be in the 98+ % AT range based on Ebay alone. I have been actively looking for a nicely toned Peace dollar for at least the past 4 or 5 years so I have searched extensively and while I do come across some nice NT examples...obviously the costs are a tough pill to swallow even for a toned coin fanatic like myself. I almost purchased a few examples from Ron Sirna several years ago and I believe I have made Jeremy (Airplanenut) a few offers on his lovely example.
I would never presume to know a fraction of what David Hall knows on the subject of coins and coin grading in general, however based on every day of the past 5+ years being focused on nothing but toned coin purchases, sales on Ebay, and hunting for that next diamond in the rough I feel that I am more than qualified to state that in my personal experience Mr.Hall's original statment/opinion about all toned Peace dollars being AT comes up a bit short.
Now since I have decided that no one else is allowed to have an opinion on the subject might I request that the mods lock this thread so I can get the last word
Take this for what it's worth but coins like that is why people don't take toners seriously. Everyone in the room knows that was exposed to some chemical/heat/moisture or combo of said variables ( inadvertently or on purpose)and got like that in the last couple of years. You are blinded by your own interests if you think that it is mint bag toning or album toning or whatever form of "NT" you hope stays market acceptable. That is the VERY kind of coin DH was talking about. That is the very kind of POS that has fuled the coin doctors and made most of the problem for fans of color. Any time some one can buy a 15$ coin and filp it for hundreds or more. Why do I bother.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i> I would guess that somewhere around 98% of all colorfully toned peace dollars are in fact AT >>
So this NGC64 off your site....... what category do you put this in?
Looks NT to me...this is just the type of toning I would expect on a peace dollar...splatchy pastel toning that's not particular attractive when stacked up against other denominations
What are your thoughts on it stman...I assume you believe AT?
I still have a hard time with understanding the opinions of every single poster including mr. Hall who are determining that these toned Peace dollars are AT or must be AT based on what was seen in the 60's.......I accept the opinion.....but I just can't grasp the concept logically since we are talking about 50 years and we all know that even clad coins could tone up in 50 years...and with silver coins it's almost a given that they will tone up over that amount of time
What I do agree with is that a high percentage of colorful toned Peace dollars we see today are AT......and by this I am more specifically pointed my comments towards the raw population vs those coins slabbed by the top TPGs. I think the percentage of PCGS and NGC slabbed AT peace dollars has to be small based on what I have seen in the past 5 years in particular but it would be nearly impossible to quantify an exact percentage......but if I must based on my viewing of these coins in all sales venues (shops), shows, and auctions....I believe the percentage to be less than 10% and possibly even south of 5%. Raw rainbow peace dollars would probably be in the 98+ % AT range based on Ebay alone. I have been actively looking for a nicely toned Peace dollar for at least the past 4 or 5 years so I have searched extensively and while I do come across some nice NT examples...obviously the costs are a tough pill to swallow even for a toned coin fanatic like myself. I almost purchased a few examples from Ron Sirna several years ago and I believe I have made Jeremy (Airplanenut) a few offers on his lovely example.
I would never presume to know a fraction of what David Hall knows on the subject of coins and coin grading in general, however based on every day of the past 5+ years being focused on nothing but toned coin purchases, sales on Ebay, and hunting for that next diamond in the rough I feel that I am more than qualified to state that in my personal experience Mr.Hall's original statment/opinion about all toned Peace dollars being AT comes up a bit short.
Now since I have decided that no one else is allowed to have an opinion on the subject might I request that the mods lock this thread so I can get the last word
Take this for what it's worth but coins like that is why people don't take toners seriously. Everyone in the room knows that was exposed to some chemical/heat/moisture or combo of said variables ( inadvertently or on purpose)and got like that in the last couple of years. You are blinded by your own interests if you think that it is mint bag toning or album toning or whatever form of "NT" you hope stays market acceptable. That is the VERY kind of coin DH was talking about. That is the very kind of POS that has fuled the coin doctors and made most of the problem for fans of color. Any time some one can buy a 15$ coin and filp it for hundreds or more. Why do I bother. >>
I have no idea why you feel the need to quote my posts and then make the same blanket statments some are up in arms about.....my interest in toned coins has not clouded my judgement of this issue at all and I believe I stated my thoughts on the percentage of AT coins in the post you quoted. Your stating the coin has obvioulsy had help in the last few years is just as crazy if I swore up and down that it has not. The bottom line is that neither of us knows the truth for sure I simply stated that the coin looked ok to me and since I don't find it attractive I would not purchase said coin. Since stman asked the question of the Op I thought I would see what he thought.....whether his opinion is AT or NT has no bearing on the coin as I believe he even states he would want to see the coin in hand to judge depth of color and luster....as I would expect any reasonable collector to do before attempting to make factual statements based on no facts other than an image.
Your asertion that toners aren't takin seriously is your opinion.....the facts don't support your opinion becuase these coins sell for many multiples of guide and are the reason coin doctors are in business....make no mistake there is a ready and waiting purchasing base ready to gobble these coins up when they hit the market. You don't have to like it...frankly I don't really care but you can't deny it or we would not be having these AT/NT debates. If these coins were selling for 20% of book then plenty of folks would ignore the situation all together.....the fact that many of these coins legit and not legit pull big money is a burr in your side....why I have no clue? I don't particular like 3 cent nickels...wouldn't want to own one.....but if a collector wants to shell out money to purchase one...what business is it of mine, after all it's not my money? So you don't like toned coins....don't buy them ...seems simple enough.
As for the coin in question...I never stated it was album toned and bag toned so I am not blinded by anything, I don't own the coin, I don't even own a Peace dollar....I simply provided an opinion based on the photo, no more no less and I assure you that I have no magic crystal ball like yourself which obviously gives you the power to not only know where this coin has been and what it's been exposed to but which also allows you to know that every member of PCGS agrees with your statement "Everyone in the room knows that was exposed to some chemical/heat/moisture"