My AT peace dollar
soty27
Posts: 1,956
Here is a nice peace dollar I have I guess all of a sudden its AT
0
Comments
<< <i>All of the sudden it's AT, did I miss something? It looks good to me especially the reverse which looks like typical monotone peace dollar toning, I like it! >>
I know its 100% NT i was just poking fun at the recent thread about peace dollar toning. Browse down until you see the post from "homerunhall" you will see why I am poking fun.
Thanks for the compliments
Looks AT to me...but I may be wrong.
HRH
<< <i>Looks AT to me...but I may be wrong.
HRH >>
Mr Hall,
With absoloutly nothing but respect I think in this case you are wrong. There are a variety of factors as to why peace dollars take much longer to tone and why they are much harder to come by then morgans and several other series. In my opinion the toning is 100% NT and there are a number of telling factors that point to that.
My question is why the sudden change on peace dollar toning? Is pcgs going to genuine every peace dollar with color other then yellow or gold now? I am just wondering, thank you for taking the time to respond to my post.
To me, toning has to be "deep", really deep to be "Market acceptable" on a peace dollar. This one just looks off to me but it could be a great piece in hand.
on the heels of the other day's comment about toned Peace Dollars, i wouldn't touch this one with the proverbial ten-foot pole.
<< <i>if it's Questionable color, why did it slab? I figure a Market acceptable offer from PCGS for the coin is in order so it can be properly de-holdered and redesignated "Genuine" ? >>
Because it's market acceptable.
IMO, it is NT. I mean, if you look closely it shows all evidence of a Peace left aside and preserved for a very long time.
Maybe a little too long to develop such dark toning on some areas of both sides. In my eyes, there is no signs of alteration
or chemical use if you ask me. If you look closely at the way the toning lays on the coin through the fields and the higher areas, you can tell
it is natural. Unlike the chemically or other processes done to coins to accelerate the toning process which will show unnatural layers when it meets this
two areas of a coin.
Anyways, this is only my opinion as this is a debated subject.
soty27, I made bigger pictures on your coin just to show my point in a closeup.
I fail to see how anyone can draw such a conclusion.
I personally don't know either way, but if it looks like the pic it's kinda fugly.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>Well its actually pretty clear this coin is 100% NT no questions
I fail to see how anyone can draw such a conclusion.
I personally don't know either way, but if it looks like the pic it's kinda fugly. >>
i agree - 100% ????
<< <i>What PCGS is saying, if you crack this out and re-submit, it will now probably grade Genuine (questionable color) >>
With the utmost respect for our host, will the end result of this be A) the pops for these are now set in stone so prices will rise and only someone that feels upside down with it would send 'em in for grade guarantee, or
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>Well its actually pretty clear this coin is 100% NT no questions
I fail to see how anyone can draw such a conclusion.
I personally don't know either way, but if it looks like the pic it's kinda fugly. >>
I agree on both counts. Though I'd add that if it is in fact NT, its colors are so reminiscent of AT that I wouldn't own it regardless.
--Severian the Lame
<< <i>I don't buy toned peace dollars, or any peace dollars for that matter, so I don't know the series. But in the case of Morgans, one thing I look at is how the underlying luster radiates through the toning. So for me it would be impossible to tell with 100% certainty a coin was NT from a picture. Since Soty deals in toned coins and has seen 1000's of examples, and has inspected this coin in hand, I will take his word that the coin is NT. I personally don't like the look of the coin however, and would not pay any sort of premium. >>
I think what you said is spot on. I to agree that the coin is extremly ugly no questions. I have the coin in hand and have looked at it several times looking for things that would point to NT or AT. I can tell its 100% NT in hand as I have seen 1000's of AT peace dollars and they are pretty clear to spot once you know what to look for. Considering toned coins is ALL I really deal with I have alot more experience with them then most others. People that collect white coins love to jump on the bandwagon and go along with the witch hunt when it comes to toned coins. I often see people on this forum refer to post count as some sort of way to discern if someone knows what they are talking about. Its usually a very bad idea to try and judge a coins grade, NT or AT status from an image, people that do so and make a 100% justification are only hurting themselves. To simply state that any peace dollar with color is AT is simply irrational. In my opinion I usually think that a person will AT a coin in order to bring the value up, in this case the coin is ugly so It would not make sense to have done this. Thats not to say people have made AT coins that are ugly but its usually a good starting point. I know that there will always be a difference of opinion but its very clear that after what MR hall recently said its already changed the opinions of several people here. I posted this same coin a couple months ago and the reaction was very different. I know not everyone will always like the same thing and or agree on everything I would simply just ask that before people jump to conclusions that if they are going to try and judge any coin one way or another they should do alot of research about what they are judging and see 100's in hand before they make a judjment. Thank you all for taking the time to read my post and post your comments.
In that case, you have the MOST to loose if you do not defend the toning aspects on Peace dollars or any other coin for that matter.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
way to have such an eye is by looking at many of them and studying them in hand.
They want "rainbow" on coins that don't normally tone "rainbow." Most naturally toned Peace$ tone ugly. But the market demands pretty, so there are folks out there to satisfy this demand.
To the OP, I'm going to try and be constructive on your imaging........ I'm certainly no photographer, and I know you've said in the past you don't tweak your images.
But most coins I see you post look tweaked to me so in my opinion you don't make a good case for your coins being natural. From what I see anyway. Perhaps you're using
reveal bulbs or something. But the reds and some other colors just don't look realistic to me and on my monitor. All this is my opinion and thoughts on this.
i'm no Chemist, but my hunch is that he's pretty full of it!!
I can not understand anybody trying to slam dunk a 100% NT (or AT for that matter) rating.
I can not understand how (s)melting metal adds or takes away by itself from the metal alloy composition.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>A few observations, can't stand the term "market acceptable. Too many people want "pretty" on coins that don't normally come "pretty."
They want "rainbow" on coins that don't normally tone "rainbow." Most naturally toned Peace$ tone ugly. But the market demands pretty, so there are folks out there to satisfy this demand.
To the OP, I'm going to try and be constructive on your imaging........ I'm certainly no photographer, and I know you've said in the past you don't tweak your images.
But most coins I see you post look tweaked to me so in my opinion you don't make a good case for your coins being natural. From what I see anyway. Perhaps you're using
reveal bulbs or something. But the reds and some other colors just don't look realistic to me and on my monitor. All this is my opinion and thoughts on this. >>
Nope I dont tweak my images. I never juice them to make them appear better then they are there is no point in doing so other then to make people unhappy when they recieve a coin that does not look as good as the image. I do use GE reveal bulbs that can sometimes make a red appear a bit more vibrant then it actually is and in that case I awitch bulbs. Feel free to stop by my table at the upcomming baltimore show and I would be more then happy to take any coin from my case and compare it to the image on my website in order for you to see. I never post an image of a coin that does not match as close as possible to the coin in hand. I take several hundread images a week and the amount of time it would take for me to go through and juice them would simply not be worth it. If you take time you can go through ebay and you will see several people who buy my coins in order to flip them, compare one of thier juiced images to my image of the coin and you will see clearly that I am not the one juicing the images. As far as using my images to make a case for toned coins thats simply not the case. I dont need my images to prove a coin is NT I buy several hundread thousand dollars worth of toned coins a year and see more in hand then just about anyone else I know, therefore I am extremly confident in what is NT and AT. I assume you have never photographed a toned coin nor have seen many monster toned coins in hand, not to be rude or mean but I kind of get the feeling your a white coin collector who thinks no toned coin can look as good or better then a good image.
<< <i>A peace Dollar dealer told me that rainbow toning on a Peace is always AT. His explanation was that the Morgans were made from fresh silver out of the ground but that Peace dollars were made from melted down Morgans which changed the chemistry of the metal such that it will not tone like Morgans do. Is he full of it or not? My question is why would anyone melt Morgans to make 1921 Peace dollars while using fresh silver to make 1921 Morgans? Just curious. >>
I'm not an expert on it by any means, but didn't the Pittman Act require the government purchase mined silver to coin into dollars - and the Morgans were minted under the Pittman Act authority?
<< <i>Looks like Taco Bell napkin toning I have seen...Well actually have toned a few coins myself that have that yellow to brown to purple-black mottled toning.
I can not understand anybody trying to slam dunk a 100% NT (or AT for that matter) rating.
I can not understand how (s)melting metal adds or takes away by itself from the metal alloy composition. >>
You can get blue from a taco bell napkin but you cannot get reds and greens on a peace dollar from a napkin nor can you get toning anywhere near this thick.
<< <i>Chris- I`m confused. You started this thread saying it was a nice Peace Dollar, then you say it is extremely ugly?? Am I missing something?? >>
Its a very nice coin its just ugly
<< <i>
<< <i>A few observations, can't stand the term "market acceptable. Too many people want "pretty" on coins that don't normally come "pretty."
They want "rainbow" on coins that don't normally tone "rainbow." Most naturally toned Peace$ tone ugly. But the market demands pretty, so there are folks out there to satisfy this demand.
To the OP, I'm going to try and be constructive on your imaging........ I'm certainly no photographer, and I know you've said in the past you don't tweak your images.
But most coins I see you post look tweaked to me so in my opinion you don't make a good case for your coins being natural. From what I see anyway. Perhaps you're using
reveal bulbs or something. But the reds and some other colors just don't look realistic to me and on my monitor. All this is my opinion and thoughts on this. >>
Nope I dont tweak my images. I never juice them to make them appear better then they are there is no point in doing so other then to make people unhappy when they recieve a coin that does not look as good as the image. I do use GE reveal bulbs that can sometimes make a red appear a bit more vibrant then it actually is and in that case I awitch bulbs. Feel free to stop by my table at the upcomming baltimore show and I would be more then happy to take any coin from my case and compare it to the image on my website in order for you to see. I never post an image of a coin that does not match as close as possible to the coin in hand. I take several hundread images a week and the amount of time it would take for me to go through and juice them would simply not be worth it. If you take time you can go through ebay and you will see several people who buy my coins in order to flip them, compare one of thier juiced images to my image of the coin and you will see clearly that I am not the one juicing the images. As far as using my images to make a case for toned coins thats simply not the case. I dont need my images to prove a coin is NT I buy several hundread thousand dollars worth of toned coins a year and see more in hand then just about anyone else I know, therefore I am extremly confident in what is NT and AT. I assume you have never photographed a toned coin nor have seen many monster toned coins in hand, not to be rude or mean but I kind of get the feeling your a white coin collector who thinks no toned coin can look as good or better then a good image. >>
You completely took me wrong. No sense in going any further with you.
<< <i>nor have seen many monster toned coins in hand, not to be rude or mean but I kind of get the feeling your a white coin collector who thinks no toned coin can look as good or better then a good image. >>
I know nothing, yes you are correct.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>A few observations, can't stand the term "market acceptable. Too many people want "pretty" on coins that don't normally come "pretty."
They want "rainbow" on coins that don't normally tone "rainbow." Most naturally toned Peace$ tone ugly. But the market demands pretty, so there are folks out there to satisfy this demand.
To the OP, I'm going to try and be constructive on your imaging........ I'm certainly no photographer, and I know you've said in the past you don't tweak your images.
But most coins I see you post look tweaked to me so in my opinion you don't make a good case for your coins being natural. From what I see anyway. Perhaps you're using
reveal bulbs or something. But the reds and some other colors just don't look realistic to me and on my monitor. All this is my opinion and thoughts on this. >>
Nope I dont tweak my images. I never juice them to make them appear better then they are there is no point in doing so other then to make people unhappy when they recieve a coin that does not look as good as the image. I do use GE reveal bulbs that can sometimes make a red appear a bit more vibrant then it actually is and in that case I awitch bulbs. Feel free to stop by my table at the upcomming baltimore show and I would be more then happy to take any coin from my case and compare it to the image on my website in order for you to see. I never post an image of a coin that does not match as close as possible to the coin in hand. I take several hundread images a week and the amount of time it would take for me to go through and juice them would simply not be worth it. If you take time you can go through ebay and you will see several people who buy my coins in order to flip them, compare one of thier juiced images to my image of the coin and you will see clearly that I am not the one juicing the images. As far as using my images to make a case for toned coins thats simply not the case. I dont need my images to prove a coin is NT I buy several hundread thousand dollars worth of toned coins a year and see more in hand then just about anyone else I know, therefore I am extremly confident in what is NT and AT. I assume you have never photographed a toned coin nor have seen many monster toned coins in hand, not to be rude or mean but I kind of get the feeling your a white coin collector who thinks no toned coin can look as good or better then a good image. >>
You completely took me wrong. No sense in going any further with you.
<< <i>nor have seen many monster toned coins in hand, not to be rude or mean but I kind of get the feeling your a white coin collector who thinks no toned coin can look as good or better then a good image. >>
I know nothing, yes you are correct. >>
My apologies if I took you wrong, no offense intended on my part. I simply continue to see you pop in my threads and say I enhance my images although you have neve seen one of my coins in hand to compare it to the image so it gets a little irritating. Once again my apologies I did not intend to offend you or put you down in any way.
<< <i>no offense intended on my part. I simply continue to see you pop in my threads and say I enhance my images >>
Please show me where I continue to pop in your threads and say you enhance your images. Heck, I wasn't saying that now, or at least I wasn't meaning to do so.
" Keep up the good work PCGS you have lost all my buisness..."
But you continue to sell toned Peace dollars in PCGS plastic on your website? Aren't you in a way promoting PCGS?
Don't get me wrong, I understand why you're mad. You purchased a coin with a PCGS label, as it adds credibility to the coin in the marketplace and therefore it commandeds a higher price. Suddenly, the price differential was taken away by a simple post by the president of PCGS. The value of the coin, whether at or nt was taken away without so much of an apology.
When a company certifies something and then later with a sweeping statement discounts it, it causes damage to their organization. More damage then you suffered my friend. Think about that. It should make you feel better.
Also consider that there are collectors like me who purchase coins and not the plastic that may surround them. This will be true long after you, I, and PCGS are gone from this world.
<< <i>
<< <i>no offense intended on my part. I simply continue to see you pop in my threads and say I enhance my images >>
Please show me where I continue to pop in your threads and say you enhance your images. Heck, I wasn't saying that now, or at least I wasn't meaning to do so. >>
I think I got you confused with someone else who pops in my threads and always says " I bet it doesnt look as good in hand" When you made a comment about the image I assumed you were saying I juiced it. Once again my sincere apologies I absolutely was not trying to insult you in any way and I think it may have appeared that way. It appears I got you confused with someone else and took what you said the wrong way. Once again my apologies if I offended you or insinuated that you knew nothing those were not my intentions.
Well, many long ago have conceded that too much money is made on colorful toning and that we might as well call >>90% NT, regardless of the science or veracity.
Well, just Love coins, period.
<< <i>
<< <i>A peace Dollar dealer told me that rainbow toning on a Peace is always AT. His explanation was that the Morgans were made from fresh silver out of the ground but that Peace dollars were made from melted down Morgans which changed the chemistry of the metal such that it will not tone like Morgans do. Is he full of it or not? My question is why would anyone melt Morgans to make 1921 Peace dollars while using fresh silver to make 1921 Morgans? Just curious. >>
I'm not an expert on it by any means, but didn't the Pittman Act require the government purchase mined silver to coin into dollars - and the Morgans were minted under the Pittman Act authority? >>
TDN - if I understand correctly the Pittman act authorized up to 350,000,000 silver dollars be melted into bullion or used to make other silver coins. If this is correct then are Morgan 1921 dollars the same composiiton as Peace 1921 dollars - and if so, do 1921 Morgan NT with rainbow coloring?
Point of clarification...this toning thing is just my opinion. PCGS graders have their own opinions and in this case my opinion isn't signaling any change in PCGS policy...it's just my opinion.
HRH
<< <i>Well its actually pretty clear this coin is 100% NT no questions
I fail to see how anyone can draw such a conclusion.
I personally don't know either way, but if it looks like the pic it's kinda fugly. >>
I Agree AT/NT who cares it's ugly.
CoinSpace.com Founder
www.coinspace.com
<< <i>Point of clarification...this toning thing is just my opinion. PCGS graders have their own opinions and in this case my opinion isn't signaling any change in PCGS policy...it's just my opinion.
HRH >>
Mr Hall ,
Thank you for taking the time to clarify and awnser my question. I guess I was just taken back when you refered to all peace dollars. I would have personally thought somewhere in the neighbor hood of 95% of colorful peace dollars are Artificially toned but not 100%. Once again thank you for taking the time to respond to my question. This whole peace dollar toning thing has wore me out and made me realize that no matter what everyone has there own opinion and everyone is more then welcome to disagree. Thanks again.
Chris
Mr Hall ,
Thank you for taking the time to clarify and awnser my question. I guess I was just taken back when you refered to all peace dollars. I would have personally thought somewhere in the neighbor hood of 95% of colorful peace dollars are Artificially toned but not 100%. Once again thank you for taking the time to respond to my question. This whole peace dollar toning thing has wore me out and made me realize that no matter what everyone has there own opinion and everyone is more then welcome to disagree. Thanks again.
Chris >>
"Point of clarification...this toning thing is just my opinion. PCGS graders have their own opinions and in this case my opinion isn't signaling any change in PCGS policy...it's just my opinion. HRH"
As President and a founder of the company, you can expect that your graders, in fact all paid employees and vendors of PCGS, look to you for leadership. Your published opinion carries a lot weight with them, dealers and collectors. If you think your opinion doesn't come across as signal of change in PCGS policy, then you are mistaken. It does.
<< <i>"Point of clarification...this toning thing is just my opinion. PCGS graders have their own opinions and in this case my opinion isn't signaling any change in PCGS policy...it's just my opinion. HRH"
As President and a founder of the company, you can expect that your graders, in fact all paid employees and vendors of PCGS, look to you for leadership. Your published opinion carries a lot weight with them, dealers and collectors. If you think your opinion doesn't come across as signal of change in PCGS policy, then you are mistaken. It does. >>
I think the point fans of toned Peace Dollars is missing is it isn't just Mr. Hall opinion. The majority of the educated collector/dealer base feel slimier and aren't blinded by there appreciation of a niche corner of the hobby. And after a decade plus of watching coin doctors exploite that specific field ad nauseam, most of us are ready to just lump it into the old "guilty until proven otherwise". Even if it's real it will be black in 25 or so years, stop trying to make common coins rare and expensive....you too Ike guys. And yes deep down I truly believe it is AT orrrrr environmentally damaged. It is one or the other .
<< <i>stop trying to make common coins rare and expensive....you too Ike guys. >>
Not sure what this thread has to do with Ike's... but what do you feel Ike guys have done to make common coins rare and expensive?
Some Ike's may seem expensive for moderns, but it is obvious to anyone that has spent time with the series that the prices reflect conditional rarity and supply/demand.
At times there is a wide spread in ask prices, especially for varieties. This is mainly due to the owners' varying feel for value: public sales data is basically nonexistent, most varieties exchange hands in private transactions. They are only as expensive as someone is willing to pay.
How do you view this differently?
<< <i>Considering toned coins is ALL I really deal with I have alot more experience with them then most others.
...
I often see people on this forum refer to post count as some sort of way to discern if someone knows what they are talking about.
...
I know that there will always be a difference of opinion but its very clear that after what MR hall recently said its already changed the opinions of several people here.
...
I posted this same coin a couple months ago and the reaction was very different. >>
That's because people know David Hall, many by reputation and others through personal experience.
What's your numismatic resume? How long have you been collecting toned coins? How long have you been dealing them?
Why should we believe you over Mr. Hall?
Just curious...Mike