THE WILD ENDING TO THE 1941(d) NICKEL SAGA!
wondercoin
Posts: 16,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
Normally, I would not post stories about my coin sales or purchases, but, this coin received so much attention on the boards here that I felt many members would be interested in what really occured with the 1941(d) Jefferson Nickel in PCGS-MS68FS yesterday. So here goes.
Last month, as I indicated on a thread on this board, I believed my ebay bid of "five figures" for the 41(d) nickel was being "run up", and whether the reasons for the "run up" were valid, unjustified or whatever they were are of no consequence at this point. In any event, the coin did not hit the reserve in that first ebay auction and did not sell. Following the Long Beach Show, the coin was still available and the owner (our forum member Washingtonvarieties) put it up for auction again on ebay. This time, I was't going to allow the same thing to happen as last time, so I asked a dealer, well equiped with "sniping" devices to win the coin for me on ebay for a fee. I asked "slqking" to place a very strong last second bid on the nickel and we would see what happened after the auction ended - perhaps we might even get lucky and "hit the reserve".
Well guess what? The seller, accidently, left one "zero" off the reserve amount and instead of their being a reserve of $12,500 or $17,500 on the coin, there was a reserve of $1250 or $1750 (it is unclear what exactly the number was as ebay does not show that information following the auction)!!! Slqking, not only "did his job" well, but did it for $1775 instead of the much, much higher bid he placed in the auction for me!!!!
Suffice it to say that over the past 24 hours, negotiations ensued for slqking's final compromised purchase price of the 41(d) nickel. LIFE IS FULL OF LAWSUITS and it is quite possible that, imho, the seller may have been obligated to deliver the coin at the ebay final "hammer price" to slqking. But, instead, after an exchange of emails back and forth between slqking and the seller, one phone call between myself and the seller this morning worked out the problem to the mutual satisfaction of both of us. Of course, slqking paid many multiples of the final ebay bid today to acquire the coin "peacefully", but I know the seller gave in a good bit too for his own mistake.
The "botched up "0" in the reserve - This is a perfect case of life being stranger than fiction.
Wondercoin.
Last month, as I indicated on a thread on this board, I believed my ebay bid of "five figures" for the 41(d) nickel was being "run up", and whether the reasons for the "run up" were valid, unjustified or whatever they were are of no consequence at this point. In any event, the coin did not hit the reserve in that first ebay auction and did not sell. Following the Long Beach Show, the coin was still available and the owner (our forum member Washingtonvarieties) put it up for auction again on ebay. This time, I was't going to allow the same thing to happen as last time, so I asked a dealer, well equiped with "sniping" devices to win the coin for me on ebay for a fee. I asked "slqking" to place a very strong last second bid on the nickel and we would see what happened after the auction ended - perhaps we might even get lucky and "hit the reserve".
Well guess what? The seller, accidently, left one "zero" off the reserve amount and instead of their being a reserve of $12,500 or $17,500 on the coin, there was a reserve of $1250 or $1750 (it is unclear what exactly the number was as ebay does not show that information following the auction)!!! Slqking, not only "did his job" well, but did it for $1775 instead of the much, much higher bid he placed in the auction for me!!!!
Suffice it to say that over the past 24 hours, negotiations ensued for slqking's final compromised purchase price of the 41(d) nickel. LIFE IS FULL OF LAWSUITS and it is quite possible that, imho, the seller may have been obligated to deliver the coin at the ebay final "hammer price" to slqking. But, instead, after an exchange of emails back and forth between slqking and the seller, one phone call between myself and the seller this morning worked out the problem to the mutual satisfaction of both of us. Of course, slqking paid many multiples of the final ebay bid today to acquire the coin "peacefully", but I know the seller gave in a good bit too for his own mistake.
The "botched up "0" in the reserve - This is a perfect case of life being stranger than fiction.
Wondercoin. Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
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Comments
Kyle
Keith
Kyle
Re-elect Bush in 2004... Dont let the Socialists brainwash you.
Bush 2004
Jeb 2008
KK 2016
Kyle
Kyle: You're making me blush
Yes, this nickel may have been bought at the bank in 1941 along with its "contemporaries" such as Walkers and Mercury Dimes, but "world class rarity" may be a wee bit much
Why mess with (in order) a dipped MS66; an AT MS62 Morgan or a recolored added mintmark Lincoln?
peacockcoins
Keith
still looking for a 1943 AU or better (11-O-1)
<< <i> I will gladly pay you $5,000 for a regular issue Jefferson nickel in PCGS-MS68FS dated 1938-1964 you can offer me this month >>
Offer good for this month only? Are you saying that you're not confident that the pop is going to stay the same?
How bout the NGC coins, you say it'll be a strong offer? Why woudn't it be the same as your offer for a PCGS piece (assuming you would be able to see it in person first).
Also, how could you post an offer for these oins sight unseen? What if they're not real MS68FS's? Oh wait, i Forgot, you want the holder, doesn't mater what the coins look like.
Braddick, I DO NOT have all of my coins in PCGS holders, I currenly own 2 ICG coins, 2 ANACS coins, and 4 raw pieces, and I paid every bit as much for those as I would in PCGS or any other holder.
Kyle
I've extended my offers on these boards on buying a regular issue PCGS-MS68 silver Wash quarter from 1932-1964 many times, always at the same or higher levels. Each time with an expiration date. Never was able to buy one though - had to make one myself last month - a monster toned 1948(P) in PCGS-MS68!! I guess this is as good a time as any to raise my buy price and extend my offer to buy the next pop -1- graded PCGS-MS68 regular issue silver Washington Quarter (no mechanical error) for $6,500. Same other terms as before. Offer expires in 30 days
Mitch, as you know, there are some coins that have been just plain under-graded by PCGS, and other services. So, If I come up with an MS67FS, or a plain MS68 that should be MS68FS, wouldn't your offer be within 20% of the MS68FS price? Among classic collectors, this is common practice. Last week I paid nearly $200 for a 78s Morgan in 64, I don't have a greysheet handy to give you exact numbers, but I do know that a 64 usually sells for about $70 and a 65 usually sells for about $175. This piece was not toned (at least not enough to matter), but I paid that price because it is a knockout 64. Anyone want to PM me right now with a $500 offer? I'll laugh in your face.
Braddick,
as a matter of fact, I prefer my coins in ICG holders because I like the design better, with the thumb nitches and intercept shield holders, sent in 3 PCGS pieces for crossover 2 weeks ago.
Kyle
Kyle
Kyle: Don't recall right now ever doing that. So, if you send me your MS68FS raw nickel priced at $5,000 and I get it in and I think it is only an MS67FS worth $150, do I just pay the $150 to you, or what do we do then?
The truth of the matter is that a coin is no better than what PCGS says it is period. End of story. If a raw coin really was as good as you think, it would be submitted for the grade. Since the market values PCGS above all, any logical dealer would get a PCGS grade if he could get the grade he was trying to sell it at. I wouldn't pay spit for your MS68FS nickel raw even if I had a chance to see it. Why, because if it really was a PCGS gradeable MS68FS you would already have it in a holder, and wouldn't have to be fooling with me. PCGS is the gold standard in coins no matter what you say. How do I know? Look at the market!
On the flip side a coin may not be as good as PCGS says it is. We all have seen many over graded PCGS pieces. So I may not buy your 68FS even if holdered. But, at least I trust my sight seen judgement with the coin in a holder.
Other services? They trade at a discount. An NGC 68FS is not as good as a PCGS 68FS. Period. If your NGC 68FS piece is really that good you would already have it in a PCGS holder. Why? Because it will sell for more. Wonder why its so hard to cross an NGC piece to PCGS? Because the dealer already tried it, or knows it wouldn't cross. So I, the collector, am most likely wasting my time and money trying for a cross especially for an expensive piece. At best another services coin will sell as a PQ PCGS coin one grade down.
Is this right, fair, good, or anything else. Who knows or cares. As Walter Cronkite used to say, "And That's The Way It IS"!!
Cheers
Greg S.
But, I still would like Kyle to explain to me what happens when he sends me his $5000 MS68FS raw nickel that I only think is an MS67FS (because I have no experience with raw coins). Do I simply buy it for $150 as an MS67FS or?????
Mitch, I don't tink we'll have to worrie about that, I don't plan to waste any of my time looking through bag of Jeffersons for you no matter how much one might sell for.
Kyle
(edit) oops, much became numch.
Kyle: No problem. But, I have heard of just a couple bags of Jeffersons ever surfacing in the past several years dated in the 40's or 50's. You wouldn't have too much to actually look through!
That's bunk. An expensive coin is no better than PCGS says it is. If it really was, a dealer would quickly get it regraded. Very soon it would be in as high a PCGS holder as possible. That's because it is in your or any other dealer's interest to do so. Either that or the dealer is stupid, and would soon be out of business! You or another dealer might whistle in the dark about how your coin is undergraded by PCGS etc, etc., but sorry we collectors really don't care about your story
Greg S.
peacockcoins
Another example:
Last June, I was contacted by a dealer/collector who I do regular business with. He told me he was holding the best 81o he had ever seen in a 63 holder. He said it was absolutely a 64, and a shot 5. I believed him, as I had bought form him before and I know that he knew how to grade. I asked a price, and he quoted me 2x MS64 bid (keep in mind the holder said 63). Without a second thought, I said yes. Now, if he had resubmitted this one and it came back as a 64, he could still get 2x 64 bid out of me for it, but he would have lost his cost for submitting it. I eventually sold that one AT A PROFIT. I would not be surprised if one day I am walking down the isle at Long Beach, or browsing a dealers web site, and come across that same coin in a 65 holder. It's just a plain old, nothing special 81o in 65. Not nearly as interesting as owning it as a 64, even at the 65 price.
Kyle
Most of my coins are in someone's holder because they come that way. Most high end Morgan dollars available now are in PCGS or NGC holders. However, who's holder it's in MAKES ABSOLUTELY NO DIFFERENCE TO ME when I am considering purchasing a piece.
Kyle
If Kyle knows this, who are we to question this?
The amazing thing I learned from Kyle tonight is Coingame2000 may really a "closet modern dealer" because he routinely upgrades his undergraded classic coins. What an epiphany!
<< <i>Modern dealers are in it for money, they don't care about the coin, they want to sell it and never see it again >>
Mitch must be a "classic" dealer. I have bought more than one coin that he has asked that if I sell it off, give him a chance first to get it back.
Keith
As a lawyer you should know to be careful and read what's being written. Kyle says that many classic dealers do not crack out all their undergrades. So if even one is not cracked out, then the statement is true. The only reason not to crack one out is if you can get the higher grade price anyway. But even then, I bet you would still do better getting it in the holder. And, as he mentions even in his example, he suspects it will show up in a 65 holder eventually. Why? Because eventually to sell it to a collector at a retail 65 price, it better be in the holder.
Greg
If the stock market wasn't so lousy, this bantering might even be fun!!
Talk about never wanting to see them again!!
Of course there are a few choice pieces you might want back, but how about your the hundreds of state quarters you sell? Want 20 of them back? (at the prices you sold them)?
Kyle
(edit)
I am speaking of the ms67 new york state quartes.
Kyle: Last post tonight to you because you are frankly getting boaring. Sure, I'll be happy to buy (20) MS67 NY quarters from you. Just PM me on the lot and see how easy it is. Please make sure to include a fair mix of both "p" and "d" mint coins, becaue the "d" mint coins have increased roughly 200%-300% in the past 12 months and I really need those very badly right now
Kyle
peacockcoins
Why not? If you're paying 2x what a 64 goes for, how is a 63 holder any better than raw?
Kyle
How many 1k+ raw coins have you purchased?
Re-elect Bush in 2004... Dont let the Socialists brainwash you.
Bush 2004
Jeb 2008
KK 2016
Kyle
That has got to be one of the most uninformed statements I've read in a long time. It would be one thing for a clueless newbie to write that, but you! A coin is no better than what the coin is. PCGS will say one thing today and another thing tomorrow and something totally different if it was a crossover. If what PCGS says is the gospel, then why all the crackouts? I believe they're running at around 20%-33% a month of all coins graded.
End of story. If a raw coin really was as good as you think, it would be submitted for the grade. Since the market values PCGS above all, any logical dealer would get a PCGS grade if he could get the grade he was trying to sell it at. I wouldn't pay spit for your MS68FS nickel raw even if I had a chance to see it. Why, because if it really was a PCGS gradable MS68FS you would already have it in a holder, and wouldn't have to be fooling with me. PCGS is the gold standard in coins no matter what you say. How do I know? Look at the market!
On the flip side a coin may not be as good as PCGS says it is. We all have seen many over graded PCGS pieces. So I may not buy your 68FS even if holdered. But, at least I trust my sight seen judgement with the coin in a holder.
So let me get this straight. If the coin is a PCGS gradable MS68, then put it in a PCGS slab. It's only worth MS68 money if it is in a PCGS MS68 slab. Your opinion on the coin raw is meaningless, because if it was a true PCGS gradable MS68 it would be in a PCGS slab. The so-called logical market has said this. I guess that means that all expensive coins, especially moderns, are in slabs and PCGS slabs at that!!! HOWEVER, just because you got it in an MS68 PCGS slab doesn't mean it is an MS68. Now you might not purchase it because it doesn't meet your MS68 standards? Did I get that right or did I mix something up?
So you don't trust your grading ability on a raw coin because if it was really that good it would be in a slab. However, once the coin gets in a slab you now obtain the ability to judge whether or not the grade is correct? Isn't this completely illogical? If you can grade the coin in a slab then you can grade it raw. If you can't grade the coin raw then you have no business grading the coin in the slab. If you're not confident enough in your grading abilities to lay your money on the line when the coin is raw, then you don't have the right to "regrade" the coin once the coin is slabbed.
If PCGS is the "gold standard" in coins, would you care to explain why NGC grades more coins per month than PCGS? Would you care to explain why the prices paid for NGC coins are statistically the same as those paid for PCGS coins? Is the coin collecting community full of idiots who are submitting to the wrong service and full of dummies buying the wrong slab? I'll admit that PCGS is usually tougher on moderns, but overall they are about the same with everything else as NGC. If anything, NGC is more consistent.
Is it Stacks that doesn't slab coins, but instead sells them raw? I guess those coins aren't worth spit because if they were they'd be in PCGS slabs.
Other services? They trade at a discount. An NGC 68FS is not as good as a PCGS 68FS. Period. If your NGC 68FS piece is really that good you would already have it in a PCGS holder. Why? Because it will sell for more. Wonder why its so hard to cross an NGC piece to PCGS? Because the dealer already tried it, or knows it wouldn't cross. So I, the collector, am most likely wasting my time and money trying for a cross especially for an expensive piece. At best another services coin will sell as a PQ PCGS coin one grade down.
This is sad. You've bought into the PCGS marketing hype too much. PCGS isn't not the be-all-end-all opinion on a coins grade. The PCGS standards are all over the place. Your beloved moderns are treated like junk by PCGS and graded all over the place. I'd guess that 30%+ of the PCGS modern coins would not regrade at the same grade.
As for why it is so hard to cross an NGC coin to PCGS, it is NOT because the dealer already tried. Most dealers don't even bother. They know it's a political game and it has nothing to do with the coins themselves. Once you learn this you'll be better off.
didn't even see wondercoin's name on the Ebay bidding history list for this particular auction.
Wash Varieties said the auction ended early. It looks like the auction lasted 10 full days. wondercoin
was upset because his bid for this '41(d) MS68FS nickel was being "run up" when this coin
was on Ebay before. Was it fair that wondercoin was "outbidding" the other bidders by proxy on
the other hand? wondercoin had already given permission to Ebay to raise his bid by proxy if
another bidder raised the current lower bid.// wondercoin said"...slqking paid many multiples of the
final ebay bid to acquire the coin "peacefully...". I would like for slqking to come on these msg bds
and comment about this.
I think wondercoin was simply trying to inform the market.
Geez, if you guys started selling your ms68 jeffs for under $2k, now that would be a story!
To me this says volumes as to the stability of this very market. I am sure I will get an arguement to that statement, but with little foundation.
PS. This market may be "thinner", compared to others, like Morgans, but that doesn't make it any less of a market.
"First time I had heard of it."? Well just feel free to jump right in.
Compare that to a 1883 No Cents LIberty nickel in PCGS MS-67 that sold for $6,600 on Teletrade the day after this one closed. And that for a population 9 piece.
Keith
So unless the Jefferson setholders are experienced snipers, they would not have known something was wrong with the auction until the last couple of seconds, and I would think that they would pounce on the piece at that point. What better way to put yourself in a position to win a coin than to be the (potential) high bidder at a bargain price.
The other alternative is that there was active discussion between the seller and potential bidders about the reserve value of the coin and the previous bidders chose not to pursue the piece because the asking price was too high.
Keith
Of course, we all know why dbldie55 didn't bid at any time over a 10 day period the second time after placing an $8,000 bid the first time -at least I do
But, this notion that only $1750 was available on "this day" on ebay and therefore one can form a basis of "real value" as a result of that is as elementary as suggesting that a 1953(s) nickel in PCGS-MS66FS is only worth $300 because the price guide says so!! The difference is, I "put my money where my mouth is" and don't just pontificate for the sake of listening to myself. I WILL PAY $5,000 FOR ANOTHER MS68FS RIGHT NOW IN ACCORDANCE WITH MY SIMPLE TERMS (PM me if you don't have them). So, while some folks want to write about "what $1750 may mean to them", I come to these boards to buy and sell coins. Sorry in advance, if these words are too much "to the point" for some to handle.
I think that the lack of bidders the second time around has thrown some, but I agree that it does not set a market. In every auction, you have two kinds of bidders: serious bidders who will pony up the required cash (or be willing to negotiate fair prices) and then the other bidders who like to bid because they know the coin will sell higher. It's like the guy who gets to the Heritage Signature auction on the net first and puts a whopping $100 bid on a AU 1792 Half Disme. They will never win the coin, but they can tell people they have been trying to acquire one.
In this case, the serious bidders came to the first auction, determined that the coin wasn't for them, and left only the non-serious to play with the coin the second time around. And you as the winner through your proxy.
Keith