This is a good thread, to be sure. A number of things need to be mentioned, however.
Regarding the 1961 Topps Dice Game. it is famous because of that extremely high value put upon it by Beckett and SCD Standard Catalog. However, how much is actually known about this set? Even in its first guide in about 1987, which was the first major guide as I recall that listed that set, SCD mentioned that it may have actually never been issued. That is extremely important in evaluating a piece. It would be nice to know if the card actually transacted at the price of 90-some thousand dollars, the top value that "I think I remember" seeing in the Standard Cat. Beckett's $45 thousand dollar value certainly is impressive-looking, too.
Here are the morsels of information that I do remember reading or being told on the 1961 Topps Dice Game:
In about 2001-2004, Mastro Fine Sports auctioned a specimen that they graded about Excellent-Mint. It was obviously hand-cut from a sheet. By this point, ANY card valued at least $1,000 or more was submitted to Professional Sport Authenticator. It has been proven time and again that for 95% of the trading cards to be bought or sold, if you are the seller, you want it to be authenticated----gets more money. Because, if you are a buyer, you DEFINITELY demand that it be graded first by a reputable third-party grader, to assure authenticity at the least, as well as that the piece has not been fixed, enhanced, or whatever you like to call a restored card. The 1961 Topps Dice Game Mantle was not graded. Mastro gave the card a page of its own, showed the front and the back in pretty much full-size clear photos. I have the catalog somewhere. I was watching closely to see what it would reach. The high bid was "ONLY"around $17,500, which was I believe without the juice. BUT THE CARD WAS NOT GRADED, BECAUSE SAD TO SAY, IN ITS HAND-CUT FORM IT WAS SIMPLY NOT GRADABLE.
A key point to the discussion is that it is believed that Topps never marketed the cards, period. They began the project of the Dice Game, as I would surmise that any non-mainstream Topps set would have a few samples made, to show the Topps president or marketing department head. Back in 1961, long before the Topps went public, it was a much smaller company.
I have read that Woody Gelman, who had a major position at Topps at this time and maybe was their creative director of new projects, would send out samples of proposed card sets to the very few dealers and perhaps a few very esteemed adult collectors that Woody knew and trusted their judgment. Woody also ran Card Collectors Company in New York, New York as a side business. Maybe he sent samples to a few of his best customers. In the letter to each person, most of the time the sample card was stapled to the letter. Hence, that is why most surviving 1961 Topps Dice Game cards have staple holes.
I have heard that a few sheets were made of the 20 cards, and that Larry Fritsch owned one of them. I wish now that I had asked him about that issue, rather than what we did talk about. Obviously, some of those sheets were factory-cut into cards, which Woody then distributed as samples for feedback. Other cards were seen hand-cut, like that Mickey Mantle that Mastro auctioned early this century. By the looks of the corners, it was not a fresh hand-cut. Perhaps it was from a sheet removed from Topps by Gelman, then given out or sold to a customer in who knows, the mid-60s? But most collectors do not care for a sheet of cards. They want cards, not a sheet. A sheet is frustrating to them, because they want to hold the cards in their hands, and admire them one at a time. So, at least one sheet was hand-cut up into cards, assuming there are more hand-cuts than just the Mickey Mantle from that sheet.
Some cards were cut properly at Topps, and did not get stapled. A collector on the boards showed a scan of his beautiful PSA 7 Don Drysdale. What a great card.
But, the bottom line is that it appears Topps never issued the 1961 Topps Dice Game set. Those who were sent the cards, as well as whoever Woody asked for their opinion, essentially must have mostly said, "Nahhhhhhhhhhhhh". If they had actually test-marketed them, even on a test basis, there were enough adult collectors and eager kids in the Brooklyn area that would have saved a few of them. That would be just the kind of keepsake that even a mother back then might find worth saving of her son's childhood, if you catch my drift.
Also, most all Topps cards at this time were color. That is another clue that the few specimens were mock-up samples, and that IF THERE HAD BEEN FAVORABLE FEEDBACK, then Topps would easily have made their beautiful flexichromes of the cards. No problem. They would have also had to make a game board, spinner, etc. Of course, the Dice Game player cards would have been game cards, so in theory they would not have been picture cards to enjoy looking at, but to be handled heavily in game use.
Also, perhaps word was getting out about another New York firm making a huge baseball board game---Strat-O-Matic Baseball Game. Perhaps Topps did not want to be compared to them. Perhaps Strat-O-Matic approached Topps about making picture cards for their game cards, and Topps decided to check into it...... But now I am saying "PERHAPS" IN EVERY SENTENCE.
Here's the thing---if Topps did not actually issue the Dice Game set, then it is a pipe dream and you might as well forget about it. Quite true, some cards exist. Almost every one is not fit to be assigned a numerical grade. But when you start attaching sky high values to these cards that really, in all actuality, do not exist, save for a few measily samples, then would do we really have?
Now the 1962 or 1963 Topps Mickey Mantle plaque/mask was actually offered by the company as a send-away premium. I saw the offer on the back of a Topps wax pack. I saw the actual Mantle plaque at Tom Reid's table at the fall 1988 EPSCC convention at Willow Grove. Huge thing, made of cheap plastic to show a high relief 3-D picture image of Mick, and kinda ugly, in my not very humble opinion. Rare as hen's teeth, you better believe it. Further, it is a legitimate Topps product. Perhaps most that were sent away for were indeed hung on the boy's bedroom wall, as it was designed. After a few years of exposure to the sun, and handling by the boy and his chums, and the possiblily of it falling on its face and cracking Mickey's nose off---well, I guess you could say it was not "built to last." I sure admit that a nice example would stand out and be a great conversation piece in an All-State display case, with some nice graded cards to go with it. Great variety is what makes for an outstanding collection and a striking visual display.
I think I better shut up and get off the air, so to speak. Oh, if any of youse guys know some Dice Game facts, please chime in. I would love to sit corrected by the facts. Many times they are indeed stranger than fiction!!! Take care.
The mask was supposedly an item you could send away for from an offer on a wrapper. You could also send away for other things like exploding battleships, magic kits, rings, hats, pennants, or cameras. They're all hard to find. The mask picturing Mantle is more collectible and valuable than the exploding battleship or camera, but Topps probably had nothing to do with making either one. If you collect all things Mantle it's certainly something you'd want, but it's not in the same category as a Topps test issue like the Dice Game or Punchout.
<< <i>The mask was supposedly an item you could send away for from an offer on a wrapper. You could also send away for other things like exploding battleships, magic kits, rings, hats, pennants, or cameras. They're all hard to find. The mask picturing Mantle is more collectible and valuable than the exploding battleship or camera, but Topps probably had nothing to do with making either one. If you collect all things Mantle it's certainly something you'd want, but it's not in the same category as a Topps test issue like the Dice Game or Punchout. >>
I still have one of those ump ball/strike indicators, I'll start the bidding at one million dollars
<< <i>By the way, Nathaniel1960, I'm the owner of the 1955 Topps Stamps Charlie White that's pictured in the catalog. The Braves are pretty well represented in the 23 known stamps, with White, Dave Jolly and Jim Pendleton. >>
WOW That is amazing. If you are ever looking to move it, let me know. Hopefully by then will have hit the powerball.
Kiss me once, shame on you. Kiss me twice.....let's party.
Years ago I saw a complete uncut sheet of the 18-card set at Larry Fritsch's place. I don't recall now what those players' cards looked like, I was too absorbed by the Mantle and the Del Crandall (the only Brave in the set).
What would the value of a 1959 Esslinger Beer card of Mantle be?????
There has never been one found yet. Actually there has only been 1 card from this set(?) ever discovered. This Aaron I used to own (I just sold it this week BTW).
What would a high grade Esslinger Beer Mantle go for?
I would think it was be up there with the others ($50K range)
PS. If you havent noticed, these Esslinger cards have a major design change compared to the HR derby cards. The players name was moved from the bottom to the top of the card to make room for the beer ad.
<< <i>This Aaron I used to own (I just sold it this week BTW). >>
How much did your Aaron sell for? If it sold for between $20K and $25K, then a guess of $50K for the Mantle would be about right. I would guess that the Mantle would sell for between two and three times what an Aaron in similar condition would bring.
Edited to add: We're not talking about high-grade Mantles when talking about the Dice Game cards. We're talking about PSA 1s and raw authentic copies. When there are only one or two copies of a card for sale over a ten-year period, the grade becomes almost totally irrelevant. If a PSA 1 Mantle Dice Game card went for $25K, a PSA 8 would be hard pressed to bring twice that. I wouldn't pay significantly more for a high-grade copy (if one even existed).
The Aaron is Poor (SGC-10) with a tear on left side border and a pinhole.
it sold for (cash and cards) a conservative value of $4500-$5000.
It was sold privately so the price may not be the true value. This was the 2nd time it sold but the first time it was (fairly) well know to the advanced collector when sold.
If an SCG-10 (PSA-1) is roughly worth 10% of a NRMT example, that would put the Aaron in the est value of $45,000, $50,000 in NRMT.
But with many extremely rare "Type Cards" the difference in value between a low grade cards and high grade cards is not as pronounced as a common card (Topps etc.).
The value in this card is because it is unique.
But if say there was a single example from ea. player.....and I were to put a value on these like in a price guide (Esslinger's are not cataloged, yet)
Id say..............................NRMT...........EX..........VG Common Player ................ $3K.........$2K.........$1K HOFer................................ $5K.........$3K........$2K Aaron, Mays, Banks......... $15K......$10K.........$5K Mantle............................. $50K......$30K.......$15K
bob did u see the mantle mask on ebay? went to look at it as it turns out was located 15 minutes from me 2nd nicest one ive seen....only had 1/2 the tab and the corners were cut off but not horrible overall...dont know what he ended up doing with it
Coincidentally, I was going through the 2007 Robert Edward Auction catalog and saw an advertising poster/uncut sheet of the Home Run Derby cards from the Barry Halper collection was sold for $3,525.
The sheet has Esslinger's advertising on bottom, but the cards are the "regular" format.
I'd be more comfortable listing the Esslinger's version as a "set" in the Standard Catalog if anybody had ever seen any card other than that Aaron.
Esslinger's, by the way, was a Philadelphia brewery that closed in 1964, and WCAU-TV was/is also in Philly.
hi yes he ended it early to research it then i went back and upped my offer he sold it to me...so the 2nd nicest mask ive seen now resides in south florida in my friends private collection If i ever get a 3rd one...i will sell it publicly larry
Larry, how would/should your purchase and resale of the plaque affect the "book" value? It's shown in the 2010 edition of the SCBC as $3,500 NM, $1,750 EX and $1,050 VG.
hi i have no clue..because i dont think you can accurately grade these the one i bought today has 1/2 a tab and 2, 1/4 inch missing pieces of plastic and 2 split corners i paid between the vg and ex price from the guide ...if it was a card the technical grade would be poor...but compared to the others ive seen, except my copy, its really nice I think i got the mask for my friend at a bargain...At major auction perhaps it would bring $2500 or more...Mine has 4 minor splits on the underside of the corners and is the only one ive seen with the tab fully intact and i think it would bring 4000+ the plastic is so fragile i cant imagine 1 without a split corner One interesting note i should mention is that it is possible that the one i bought today came in the original plastic bag...the bag fits the piece nicely has definitely yellowed with age and the end that is scotch taped closed the tape has yellowed and browned..the owner got the piece from his father and thats how it was given to him 20 years ago larry
Thanks, Larry, that helps. I've never actually seen one of these "in person." The fragility you describe probably explains why there are so few survivors.
hi the guy i bought it from called me today to buy it back at a profit someone on ebay emailed him and offered to pay $2000 for it needless to say i turned it down
Comments
Regarding the 1961 Topps Dice Game. it is famous because of that extremely high value put upon it by Beckett and SCD Standard Catalog. However, how much is actually known about this set? Even in its first guide in about 1987, which was the first major guide as I recall that listed that set, SCD mentioned that it may have actually never been issued. That is extremely important in evaluating a piece. It would be nice to know if the card actually transacted at the price of 90-some thousand dollars, the top value that "I think I remember" seeing in the Standard Cat. Beckett's $45 thousand dollar value certainly is impressive-looking, too.
Here are the morsels of information that I do remember reading or being told on the 1961 Topps Dice Game:
In about 2001-2004, Mastro Fine Sports auctioned a specimen that they graded about Excellent-Mint. It was obviously hand-cut from a sheet. By this point, ANY card valued at least $1,000 or more was submitted to Professional Sport Authenticator. It has been proven time and again that for 95% of the trading cards to be bought or sold, if you are the seller, you want it to be authenticated----gets more money. Because, if you are a buyer, you DEFINITELY demand that it be graded first by a reputable third-party grader, to assure authenticity at the least, as well as that the piece has not been fixed, enhanced, or whatever you like to call a restored card. The 1961 Topps Dice Game Mantle was not graded. Mastro gave the card a page of its own, showed the front and the back in pretty much full-size clear photos. I have the catalog somewhere. I was watching closely to see what it would reach. The high bid was "ONLY"around $17,500, which was I believe without the juice. BUT THE CARD WAS NOT GRADED, BECAUSE SAD TO SAY, IN ITS HAND-CUT FORM IT WAS SIMPLY NOT GRADABLE.
A key point to the discussion is that it is believed that Topps never marketed the cards, period. They began the project of the Dice Game, as I would surmise that any non-mainstream Topps set would have a few samples made, to show the Topps president or marketing department head. Back in 1961, long before the Topps went public, it was a much smaller company.
I have read that Woody Gelman, who had a major position at Topps at this time and maybe was their creative director of new projects, would send out samples of proposed card sets to the very few dealers and perhaps a few very esteemed adult collectors that Woody knew and trusted their judgment. Woody also ran Card Collectors Company in New York, New York as a side business. Maybe he sent samples to a few of his best customers. In the letter to each person, most of the time the sample card was stapled to the letter. Hence, that is why most surviving 1961 Topps Dice Game cards have staple holes.
I have heard that a few sheets were made of the 20 cards, and that Larry Fritsch owned one of them. I wish now that I had asked him about that issue, rather than what we did talk about. Obviously, some of those sheets were factory-cut into cards, which Woody then distributed as samples for feedback. Other cards were seen hand-cut, like that Mickey Mantle that Mastro auctioned early this century. By the looks of the corners, it was not a fresh hand-cut. Perhaps it was from a sheet removed from Topps by Gelman, then given out or sold to a customer in who knows, the mid-60s? But most collectors do not care for a sheet of cards. They want cards, not a sheet. A sheet is frustrating to them, because they want to hold the cards in their hands, and admire them one at a time. So, at least one sheet was hand-cut up into cards, assuming there are more hand-cuts than just the Mickey Mantle from that sheet.
Some cards were cut properly at Topps, and did not get stapled. A collector on the boards showed a scan of his beautiful PSA 7 Don Drysdale. What a great card.
But, the bottom line is that it appears Topps never issued the 1961 Topps Dice Game set. Those who were sent the cards, as well as whoever Woody asked for their opinion, essentially must have mostly said, "Nahhhhhhhhhhhhh". If they had actually test-marketed them, even on a test basis, there were enough adult collectors and eager kids in the Brooklyn area that would have saved a few of them. That would be just the kind of keepsake that even a mother back then might find worth saving of her son's childhood, if you catch my drift.
Also, most all Topps cards at this time were color. That is another clue that the few specimens were mock-up samples, and that IF THERE HAD BEEN FAVORABLE FEEDBACK, then Topps would easily have made their beautiful flexichromes of the cards. No problem. They would have also had to make a game board, spinner, etc. Of course, the Dice Game player cards would have been game cards, so in theory they would not have been picture cards to enjoy looking at, but to be handled heavily in game use.
Also, perhaps word was getting out about another New York firm making a huge baseball board game---Strat-O-Matic Baseball Game. Perhaps Topps did not want to be compared to them. Perhaps Strat-O-Matic approached Topps about making picture cards for their game cards, and Topps decided to check into it...... But now I am saying "PERHAPS" IN EVERY SENTENCE.
Here's the thing---if Topps did not actually issue the Dice Game set, then it is a pipe dream and you might as well forget about it. Quite true, some cards exist. Almost every one is not fit to be assigned a numerical grade. But when you start attaching sky high values to these cards that really, in all actuality, do not exist, save for a few measily samples, then would do we really have?
Now the 1962 or 1963 Topps Mickey Mantle plaque/mask was actually offered by the company as a send-away premium. I saw the offer on the back of a Topps wax pack. I saw the actual Mantle plaque at Tom Reid's table at the fall 1988 EPSCC convention at Willow Grove. Huge thing, made of cheap plastic to show a high relief 3-D picture image of Mick, and kinda ugly, in my not very humble opinion. Rare as hen's teeth, you better believe it. Further, it is a legitimate Topps product. Perhaps most that were sent away for were indeed hung on the boy's bedroom wall, as it was designed. After a few years of exposure to the sun, and handling by the boy and his chums, and the possiblily of it falling on its face and cracking Mickey's nose off---well, I guess you could say it was not "built to last." I sure admit that a nice example would stand out and be a great conversation piece in an All-State display case, with some nice graded cards to go with it. Great variety is what makes for an outstanding collection and a striking visual display.
I think I better shut up and get off the air, so to speak. Oh, if any of youse guys know some Dice Game facts, please chime in. I would love to sit corrected by the facts. Many times they are indeed stranger than fiction!!! Take care.
Respectfully, IndianaJones (BrianPowell)
<< <i>The mask was supposedly an item you could send away for from an offer on a wrapper. You could also send away for other things like exploding battleships, magic kits, rings, hats, pennants, or cameras. They're all hard to find. The mask picturing Mantle is more collectible and valuable than the exploding battleship or camera, but Topps probably had nothing to do with making either one. If you collect all things Mantle it's certainly something you'd want, but it's not in the same category as a Topps test issue like the Dice Game or Punchout. >>
I still have one of those ump ball/strike indicators, I'll start the bidding at one million dollars
Current obsession, all things Topps 1969 - 1972
I was going to ask what material the plaque/mask was made of. Brian answered that question by saying it was made of plastic.
Shane
<< <i>The high bid was "ONLY"around $17,500, which was I believe without the juice. >>
Geez, I wish that was the high bid. It was a little less than twice that much.
bobsbbcards SGC Registry Sets
<< <i>I smell a contest. My guess $31,987. >>
You're off by a $0.25, but nice try.
bobsbbcards SGC Registry Sets
<< <i>By the way, Nathaniel1960, I'm the owner of the 1955 Topps Stamps Charlie White that's pictured in the catalog. The Braves are pretty well represented in the 23 known stamps, with White, Dave Jolly and Jim Pendleton. >>
WOW
Kiss me twice.....let's party.
http://forums.collectors.com//attachments/
ive been looking for 20 years
Edited to add that I just found this pic of Frank Robinson.
Bowman Baseball -1948-1955
Fleer Baseball-1923, 1959-2007
Al
bobsbbcards SGC Registry Sets
have u seen a copy of davenport groat mazeroski b.robinson siebern or white
There has never been one found yet. Actually there has only been 1 card from this set(?) ever discovered. This Aaron I used to own (I just sold it this week BTW).
What would a high grade Esslinger Beer Mantle go for?
I would think it was be up there with the others ($50K range)
PS. If you havent noticed, these Esslinger cards have a major design change compared to the HR derby cards. The players name was moved from the bottom to the top of the card to make room for the beer ad.
<< <i>This Aaron I used to own (I just sold it this week BTW). >>
How much did your Aaron sell for? If it sold for between $20K and $25K, then a guess of $50K for the Mantle would be about right. I would guess that the Mantle would sell for between two and three times what an Aaron in similar condition would bring.
Edited to add: We're not talking about high-grade Mantles when talking about the Dice Game cards. We're talking about PSA 1s and raw authentic copies. When there are only one or two copies of a card for sale over a ten-year period, the grade becomes almost totally irrelevant. If a PSA 1 Mantle Dice Game card went for $25K, a PSA 8 would be hard pressed to bring twice that. I wouldn't pay significantly more for a high-grade copy (if one even existed).
bobsbbcards SGC Registry Sets
it sold for (cash and cards) a conservative value of $4500-$5000.
It was sold privately so the price may not be the true value. This was the 2nd time it sold but the first time it was (fairly) well know to the advanced collector when sold.
If an SCG-10 (PSA-1) is roughly worth 10% of a NRMT example, that would put the Aaron in the est value of $45,000, $50,000 in NRMT.
But with many extremely rare "Type Cards" the difference in value between a low grade cards and high grade cards is not as pronounced as a common card (Topps etc.).
The value in this card is because it is unique.
But if say there was a single example from ea. player.....and I were to put a value on these like in a price guide (Esslinger's are not cataloged, yet)
Id say..............................NRMT...........EX..........VG
Common Player ................ $3K.........$2K.........$1K
HOFer................................ $5K.........$3K........$2K
Aaron, Mays, Banks......... $15K......$10K.........$5K
Mantle............................. $50K......$30K.......$15K
IMO
bobsbbcards SGC Registry Sets
did u see the mantle mask on ebay?
went to look at it as it turns out was located 15 minutes from me
2nd nicest one ive seen....only had 1/2 the tab and the corners were cut off
but not horrible overall...dont know what he ended up doing with it
The sheet has Esslinger's advertising on bottom, but the cards are the "regular" format.
I'd be more comfortable listing the Esslinger's version as a "set" in the Standard Catalog if anybody had ever seen any card other than that Aaron.
Esslinger's, by the way, was a Philadelphia brewery that closed in 1964, and WCAU-TV was/is also in Philly.
<< <i>I did not see the Mantle mask on eBay. Did it sell? I don't see it under Complete sales, at least not identified as "mask" or "plaque". >>
VINTAGE MICKEY MANTLE EMBOSSED PLASTIC PICTURE FRAME
bobsbbcards SGC Registry Sets
Steve
yes he ended it early to research it
then i went back and upped my offer
he sold it to me...so the 2nd nicest mask ive seen now resides in south florida
in my friends private collection
If i ever get a 3rd one...i will sell it publicly
larry
i have no clue..because i dont think you can accurately grade these
the one i bought today has 1/2 a tab and 2, 1/4 inch missing pieces of plastic and 2 split corners
i paid between the vg and ex price from the guide ...if it was a card the technical grade would be poor...but compared to the others ive seen, except my copy, its really nice I think i got the mask for my friend at a bargain...At major auction perhaps it would bring $2500 or more...Mine has 4 minor splits on the underside of the corners and is the only one ive seen with the tab fully intact and i think it would bring 4000+
the plastic is so fragile i cant imagine 1 without a split corner
One interesting note i should mention is that it is possible that the one i bought today came in the original plastic bag...the bag fits the piece nicely has definitely yellowed with age and the end that is scotch taped closed the tape has yellowed and browned..the owner got the piece from his father and thats how it was given to him 20 years ago
larry
the guy i bought it from called me today to buy it back at a profit
someone on ebay emailed him and offered to pay $2000 for it
needless to say i turned it down
Are you also sflyankfan?
Or however it is spelled?
Steve
edited to add: lol nevermind I see in another thread that it is.
Good luck finding those obscure items!