“The whales are ruining the classic car market”—is this true of the coin market as well?
Longacre
Posts: 16,717 ✭✭✭
Yesterday, I spent the entire day at a classic car show at an undisclosed location in Connecticut, selling raffle tickets for the Lions Club (of which I am a member). We are raffling off a fire engine red 1964 ½ Ford Mustang convertible, with the excessively rare 260 engine. I must say, driving the car to the show was a hoot, although unfortunately the designers of the car did not have the foresight to put a cup holder to hold my latte. 
During the course of the day, your very own Longacre talked cars with people who are as passionate about classic cars as we are passionate about coins. I worked the crowd up into the frothiest of frenzies as I described the fact that the Mustang had a generator and not an alternator (whatever that means, I haven’t a clue, but someone told me about it), and the nuances of the ½ in the year of production, as well as the intricacies finding spare parts for Mustangs.
One particularly passionate person who came up to our booth started lamenting the fact that the “rich collectors are ruining the classic car market” by bidding up ANY car with a big block engine in it, and as such, the “regular collectors” cannot afford to buy those cars and fix them up. Now Longacre, not knowing a big block engine if it bit him on the a$$, said that he completely agreed with this assessment, and the whales of the classic car market are ruining the entire industry for the little people (and then quickly made a raffle ticket sale to the guy
).
In the coin world, we sometimes complain about the prices of coins and how they are getting bid up beyond the means of the common collectors. It looks like the same thing is happening in other hobbies as well. Do you think the “problem” in coins is really a bad thing, since we all tend to benefit from higher valuations in general?
During the course of the day, your very own Longacre talked cars with people who are as passionate about classic cars as we are passionate about coins. I worked the crowd up into the frothiest of frenzies as I described the fact that the Mustang had a generator and not an alternator (whatever that means, I haven’t a clue, but someone told me about it), and the nuances of the ½ in the year of production, as well as the intricacies finding spare parts for Mustangs.
One particularly passionate person who came up to our booth started lamenting the fact that the “rich collectors are ruining the classic car market” by bidding up ANY car with a big block engine in it, and as such, the “regular collectors” cannot afford to buy those cars and fix them up. Now Longacre, not knowing a big block engine if it bit him on the a$$, said that he completely agreed with this assessment, and the whales of the classic car market are ruining the entire industry for the little people (and then quickly made a raffle ticket sale to the guy
). In the coin world, we sometimes complain about the prices of coins and how they are getting bid up beyond the means of the common collectors. It looks like the same thing is happening in other hobbies as well. Do you think the “problem” in coins is really a bad thing, since we all tend to benefit from higher valuations in general?
Always took candy from strangers
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
0
Comments
<< <i>Yesterday, I spent the entire day at a classic car show at an undisclosed location in Connecticut, selling raffle tickets for the Lions Club (of which I am a member). We are raffling off a fire engine red 1964 ½ Ford Mustang convertible, with the excessively rare 260 engine. I must say, driving the car to the show was a hoot, although unfortunately the designers of the car did not have the foresight to put a cup holder to hold my latte.
During the course of the day, your very own Longacre talked cars with people who are as passionate about classic cars as we are passionate about coins. I worked the crowd up into the frothiest of frenzies as I described the fact that the Mustang had a generator and not an alternator (whatever that means, I haven’t a clue, but someone told me about it), and the nuances of the ½ in the year of production, as well as the intricacies finding spare parts for Mustangs.
One particularly passionate person who came up to our booth started lamenting the fact that the “rich collectors are ruining the classic car market” by bidding up ANY car with a big block engine in it, and as such, the “regular collectors” cannot afford to buy those cars and fix them up. Now Longacre, not knowing a big block engine if it bit him on the a$$, said that he completely agreed with this assessment, and the whales of the classic car market are ruining the entire industry for the little people (and then quickly made a raffle ticket sale to the guy
In the coin world, we sometimes complain about the prices of coins and how they are getting bid up beyond the means of the common collectors. It looks like the same thing is happening in other hobbies as well. Do you think the “problem” in coins is really a bad thing, since we all tend to benefit from higher valuations in general? >>
I thought the classic car market was cooling and had already cooled considerably?
The "little people" need to either make more money or find another hobby. The "little people" don't have a monopoly and entitlement to buy cars at prices they deem appropriate. It is a hobby, a luxury and a market that is open to all, and if "whales", (those who have a few bucks) want in, then that is the way it is going to be.
Why do people fight reality as if it should be some other way?
Some A.M. just-getting-the-caffeine-flowing thoughts.
Tyler
I know I am not going to pick up a high end fugio in my price range, same as I cant pick up a big block vette in my price range. Of course my current vette never should have been in my price range, but hey you only live once.
This is a hobby of kings and pawns. The kings get what they want as they pay dearly for the best pieces. The pawns collect everything else, and there are a lot of nice coins that the kings don't care about.
Lets face it, everyone wants to own 1933 Double eagle. Only a few will ever get that privilege to do so. Holding a nice common date higher grade coin is pretty cool to.
I don't think there is anything that can be 'done about it' other than get your own head straight about reality.
john
Buying a Survivor 60's muscle car with matching numbers and original paint...........for uber high money is nothing at all different from buying a MS ninteenth century collector coin in a certifed holder with pristine original surfaces and low survivor rates. its big money, little boys toys for grown men with deep pockets.
Of course, you can probably get that same make/year of car with a replacement engine, welded up frame, bondo bodywork and incorrect color/interior for a low price, much the same as you can get a cleaned problem coin in an off brand holder for the same discount money.
Quality always costs.
<< <i>Do you think the “problem” in coins is really a bad thing... >>
The "problem" you're talking about is "supply vs. demand". Good luck if you're thinking of trying to figure a way around it.
<< <i>
<< <i>Do you think the “problem” in coins is really a bad thing... >>
The "problem" you're talking about is "supply vs. demand". Good luck if you're thinking of trying to figure a way around it.
Federally designated coin swap program.
You got into the car with your latte!
<< <i>The peasants are revolting! Indeed!
Aye! They're ugly, too!
<< <i>I thought the classic car market was cooling and had already cooled considerably? >>
It has considerably but the blockbuster cars still are bringing blockbuster money...just like coins.
<< <i>Federally designated coin swap program. >>
This topic has already been mentioned here:
Yes, I'm sure central planning is much more efficient than having individuals making decisions for themselves.
On a related note, the Committee for Proper Dispersal of Numismatic Material will be arriving at your home shortly to confiscate (reallocate, I meant to say) your current collection and replace it with your authorized Colorized statehood Quarter set, which will be your new specialty. You do realize, of course, no appeal of this decision is permitted, as the Really Smart People in charge of this new program know better than you do what's in your best interest.
Generators produced DC while alternators produce AC; four diodes are used to rectify the current coming out of an alternator to turn it into DC.
"Now Longacre, not knowing a big block engine if it bit him on the a$$, ..."
Big block refers to the physical size of the engine; however, the important factor is the displacement. Thus for GM the 305-350 CI engines were the small blocks and the 427 was the big block.
And no the whales aren't driving up prices on coins.
Whale sizes are being noted everywhere. As most of us struggle and wiggle around downsizing our this and that it seems the wake of whale frolicking has become increasingly visible and annoying. I over heard just last week, in reference to proposed new zoning codes, how it was getting to where only millionaires and country music stars would be living in Nolensville, TN if land continued to be bought up and zoned as proposed. I had to suppress a smile because the scent of whale fear was strong in the comment. Our county here may be wealthy but Nolensville, TN is not now and probably never will be an exclusive conclave of the local rich and famous. I suspect the irrational fear of being squeezed out is what now pervades most genres of life and collecting.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
What does a whale ride around in these days?
Maybe out east but not so out west. How many do you want?
"as well as the intricacies finding spare parts for Mustangs."
Almost everything is reproduced for Mustangs.
I thought the classic car market was cooling and had already cooled considerably?
It has. Much more so than the coin market.
"Big block refers to the physical size of the engine;"
Cubic inch displacement. For Ford it was 427, 428 and the ultiment Boss 429. The 429 is the WHALE.
Ken
Agree with Fairlane's comments 100% and yes the classic car market has cooled off more then the coin market......FYI---nothing like a big block cobra jet
MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
One of my best friends sold his 69 Torino Cobra Jet out from under me. I have never forgave him for that. For a somewhat heavy car that thing was a screamer and tons of fun in the wide open spaces out here.
Maybe he never forgave me for selling my Shelby Mustang out from under him.....
Ken
<< <i>"FYI---nothing like a big block cobra jet"
One of my best friends sold his 69 Torino Cobra Jet out from under me. I have never forgave him for that. For a somewhat heavy car that thing was a screamer and tons of fun in the wide open spaces out here.
Maybe he never forgave me for selling my Shelby Mustang out from under him.....
Ken >>
My friend sold his 69 Mach 1 428 cobra jet out from under me twenty five years ago. I'm just now recovering and I may actually speak to him again one day : ) MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
And as such, he has sucked me in! Do you take Paypal for them?
-Coastal and other expensive real estate
-Art and antiques
-Rare books and other documents
-Minerals, crystals, gems, and meteorites
-all manner of desirable objects
oh, woe to the "regular colllectors"... Maybe they can organize and vote to legalize appropriations and re-allocation of muscle cars from the rich to the more deserving masses.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The socialization of the classic car market. I like the idea! Maybe, it would entice coin collectors to get into that market and let us old timers have numismatics back!
<< <i>Quality floats to the top...and big money buys it. This holds true with any collector item, coins, cars, art.........
Quality always costs. >>
--Jerry
The same is not true in the coin market. We have to accept the deteriorating condition of the coins, which in most cases is much older. We don't restore coins (even though there has been many attempts to improve or alter them). Many times, pristine condition is not available, even though we all wish it was. Therefore, the top quality pieces bring the top money.
Deep pocket collectors do like scarce, historically important things. In many cases, coins are one of the scarcest of all collectibles, but you can't do anything with them for the most part, and this fact limits overall popularity with the general public. Most of us have a drivers license.
There are some similarities with cars and coins being collectible. The US Mint stopped making 90% silver coins in 1964, while the auto companies started making bigger horsepower motors at the same time. Detroit increased displacement every year until 1971, when engines were detuned. The US Mint continued making copper-clad coinage and lowering silver down to 40% in the halves. By 1971 everything regarding these two hobbies was going downhill.
Cars and coins are both fun and worthwhile pursuits.
The "whales" (rather derogatory IMO - Brand and Eliasberg were collectors) are not ruining anything, they are simply participating.
Then again, I am spending as much as possible on American numismatic literature, which in many cases, is even scarcer than old coins or cars.
Now......this is a $5000 car, which I think is fair especially since I value an original car much more than a restored (or semi restored) car. So, we have 5K, a 1960 model with low low miles and all original. Transpose those specs to something "popular" like a 1957 Chevy...and OMG that price would be 10 times that.
But, Studebakers are NOT popular (wonder why?) and far fewer people have any interest in them....so the prices are low.
Her birthday is sept. 29.............wonder if I can get if here by then??
I think most of the high prices paid by a few whales for toys that are off limits to 99.9999% of people is just a shill or advertising ploy to encourage ordinary people to part with there life savings and get taken to the cleaners.
For example, if one sees a 1957 Chevy sell for $200,000 grand on a televise version of Barrett-Jackson nonscence auction, then they may think that getting a fixer-upper for 30K is a screaming good deal.
Whale watching just encourages "normal" people to try to swim in the deap end of the pool.
I just happen to have a 1976 Corvette with 20, 243 actual miles.
Jeez Thanks notwilight. Now not only are my coins widgets but the car also.....
Oh Well.
Ken
I have read the posts so far.
I am into Classic Cars and Coins too.
Big blocks have been outselling small blocks for a long time.
If the car has a an Automatic Transmission, the price drops a LOT!
I know the Mustang market pretty well. A nice 64 1/2 Mustang will NEVER go for moon money campared to a muscle car.
A 260 powered convertible mustang is NOT a muscle car.
Lots of Corvettes out there that are the smaller motors and automatic versions sell for very reasonable money.
If you want a Shelby Mustang or a Gold Level Corvette or a Yenko Camero, you have to pay for it.
If you want a car with less options, the price drops very fast and affordable to all.
Most of them you can not even afford the cost to restore them for what they bring at auction.
NOW, to compare to coins.
Top pops without problems are commanding a premium.
If you are OK with undergrade collecting, the prices are very affordable.
In fact, most dealers make little to nothing on modern undergrades, just on the Top Pop stuff.
So, There are Coins & Cars for all types of Buyers.
At least the "Whales" keep both markets afloat!
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
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<< <i>What does a whale ride around in these days? >>
Yeah but that whale deals in English Premier soccer teams, not coins. He has the best of the EPL teams though! GO CHELSEA!!!!!
When one sector has a price run up it draws everyone out to play. For eyeryone that makes a killing 10 get taken to the cleaners.
My cars are about like my coins (average, graded by ICG) , 1978 corvette, 1987 Buick Grand National and a 2005 Skittle. The nice thing about my cars is i drive them. I do not have to worry that someone is going top scratch my 30k paint job. I would love to buy JUST 1 MORE old car but i told my wife when i built our house a 5 car garage was enough. The property tax bill on my 1800 SF garage is 1500 hundred a year. Next house i am building a detached barn for the cars.
There are tons of old cars with non matching numbers out there. I think part of it has to do with all the crate motors you can buy. Now just about anyone can redo a old car and not be at the mercy of a mechanic.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>What does a whale ride around in these days? >>
Nice little Boat.
.....................................................
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
Blame the whales? No way. Read on for answer.
I bought my first big block muscle car in 1992....yup...a roadrunner, 1969 4 speed with a built up 383 giving out lots more than factory specified torque/hp. It only cost $3500 and I had a great time driving that starter car all over Connecticut for 2 years. I sold it for more than I paid...then moved along to GTX's, Superbees, and even a 6 pack '70 Challenger with shaker hood. The original matching engine in my first RR was with the car, just not in it. Came with a factory build sheet as well. That car was sold by the next owner for over $9K just a couple of years later and today is probably a $15K car since even a RR body on wheels seems to sell for $10K today. But things have pulled back some as mentioned already. So in a sense what Longacre has said is true. And if you want to drive a decently restored showable #2 quality, all matching #'s Roadrunner it will cost you $20K+....maybe $30K-$40K if you have your sights set on competing for trophies at Southbury where Longacre may have went this weekend. If you can do all the work yourself you can get out of it for under $20K with 1000-2000 hours of work. Do I blame any of this on the whales? Naw. The blame can be heaped right at the feet of the US congress, FED, and Treasury....the ones who took us off the gold standard in 1971 and have pumped fiat dollars into the economy ever since. The whales are merely trying to survive by investing in something that appreciates faster than the $USD devalues. And since 1996, upscale big block muscle cars like Cobra jets, Hemi's, 6 packs, tri-powers, 454's, AFXers, Superbirds, L-88's, etc. have increased in value by 4X to 10X. Even the basic muscle cars that the whales pass on have appreciated 2X to 3X. A nice showable #'s matching big block full sized Mopar cost $12K in the later 1990's. That sure looks cheap today. You don't need to store them in safe deposit boxes and you can actually drive them to shows or wherever makes you happy and not get too worked about people stealing them when you turn your back. Insurance is dirt cheap if you can limit yourself to 2500-5000 miles per year.
If anything the whales helped to float all boats, but give the real credit to your elected and non-elected officials. Coins have behaved as they should considering that fiat/credit has run amock for 38 years. I had to leave the car hobby in 2003 because I couldn't serve 2 masters (coins and cars) and give either full due. And I thought the prices of cars were way too high in 2003! But someday I'll be back when my interest in coins wanes yet another time.
roadrunner
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The problem is not the whales. The problem is rarity. >>
Is there really a problem here?
<< <i>I have toyed with the idea of buying a fun car. Not a muscle car, but maybe a 70's Triumph Spitfire, 80's SL Mercedes, or a 90's Miata. Maybe it's an excuse, but every time I think about taking the plunge, I am reminded that not only do we pay a sales tax on cars, we also pay a yearly personal property tax.
I hear you, man. Between the federal tax, state tax, sales tax, and personal property tax in my state, I barely have enough left over to support Mrs. Longacre in the lifestyle she's grown accustomed to.
My parents had a 1965 Dodge Dart, which I wish they had kept, and we had a 1972 Plymouth Duster growing up, which I still wish we had, too. Somehow I don't think my 2005 Dodge Grand Caravan will be coveted by collectors 30 years from now.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
I like to pretend that at least some of the annual registration fees (which is what I assume you're referring to) goes toward road maintenance, police, and emergency response services, so that, generally, that segment of the population which uses the road system pays more tax toward it than those who don't drive. Further, I delude myself into thinking that those who can afford fancy extra cars can also afford a disproportionate share of these costs (versus non-car-owners or owners of a single, practical car per person). Like you, my wife and I minimize these costs by driving a 10+ year old 4-runner and maxima.
But I would love to someday have a 3rd garage containing an old camaro or mustang, along with a consuelo to dust it between sunday drives from the estate.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>I am reminded that not only do we pay a sales tax on cars, we also pay a yearly personal property tax
I like to pretend that at least some of the annual registration fees (which is what I assume you're referring to) goes toward road maintenance, police, and emergency response services, so that, generally, that segment of the population which uses the road system pays more tax toward it than those who don't drive. Further, I delude myself into thinking that those who can afford fancy extra cars can also afford a disproportionate share of these costs (versus non-car-owners or owners of a single, practical car per person). Like you, my wife and I minimize these costs by driving a 10+ year old 4-runner and maxima.
But I would love to someday have a 3rd garage containing an old camaro or mustang, along with a consuelo to dust it between sunday drives from the estate. >>
No, it is actually called a "personal property tax" and is billed to you based on the estimated value of your vehicle. For example, for my wife's 2005 Acura MDX, we paid about $550 in personal property tax. In order to renew your registration, for which there is a separate fee of about $25 annually, you must have the receipt for payment of this tax. By driving a lower value automobile (currently I drive a Honda Civic), I pay less of this tax.
As for the distribution of the tax, it generally follows the same distribution proportions of the property tax on our homes (school, emergency services, library, travel fund for state and county bigshots, outsized pensions for anyone who has ever been on the state or county payroll, etc.).
At any rate, if I bought an extra $10,000 vehicle for fun, in addition to the state sales tax, I would be in for a couple hundred dollars each year. So far, we do not have a personal property tax for coins, and I hope we can keep it that way.
<< <i>
<< <i>I am reminded that not only do we pay a sales tax on cars, we also pay a yearly personal property tax
I like to pretend that at least some of the annual registration fees (which is what I assume you're referring to) goes toward road maintenance, police, and emergency response services, so that, generally, that segment of the population which uses the road system pays more tax toward it than those who don't drive. Further, I delude myself into thinking that those who can afford fancy extra cars can also afford a disproportionate share of these costs (versus non-car-owners or owners of a single, practical car per person). Like you, my wife and I minimize these costs by driving a 10+ year old 4-runner and maxima.
But I would love to someday have a 3rd garage containing an old camaro or mustang, along with a consuelo to dust it between sunday drives from the estate. >>
No, it is actually called a "personal property tax" and is billed to you based on the estimated value of your vehicle. For example, for my wife's 2005 Acura MDX, we paid about $550 in personal property tax. In order to renew your registration, for which there is a separate fee of about $25 annually, you must have the receipt for payment of this tax. By driving a lower value automobile (currently I drive a Honda Civic), I pay less of this tax.
As for the distribution of the tax, it generally follows the same distribution proportions of the property tax on our homes (school, emergency services, library, travel fund for state and county bigshots, outsized pensions for anyone who has ever been on the state or county payroll, etc.).
At any rate, if I bought an extra $10,000 vehicle for fun, in addition to the state sales tax, I would be in for a couple hundred dollars each year. So far, we do not have a personal property tax for coins, and I hope we can keep it that way. >>
We have the same personal property tax in Connecticut, and the rates are outrageous. A new car will run you at least $1,500 per year in tax (I don't have the values or the rates in front of me right now).
As an aside, unbeknownst to Mrs. Longacre, the "shed" that I built with my friends, which is really the size of a barn, is big enough to fit an extra car (and designed to take the weight), and I made sure the doors were big enough to drive straight in. If Longacre ever has a mid-life crisis, at least I will have room for a 2009 Corvette or a nice Shelby Cobra.
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)