Dealers who need a lesson in business.
commoncents123
Posts: 2,648 ✭
Today, I emailed a dealer through his website and told him that I was interested in a coin that cost about a grand, and told him that I can't buy a coin without pics and would he please send me some. His reply? Sorry I won't do scans. I mean, this dealer may have 100-150 coins in his inventory, tops. It's not like certain well known dealers who have hundreds upon hundreds or thousands of coins with an easy return policy. My questions for him now are, 1) Why would you do a scan anyway when cameras are far superior and 2) Do you really want to sell coins? So, what is up with dealers like this? Do they just not care about doing business, or what?
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Comments
<< <i>Well, even if there is a good return policy...Who in the world wants to bother with receiving and then mailing back something by Registered mail. There's the cost of that, the hassle... It's just ridiculous. Of course, anyone has every right to conduct their business this way if they see fit -- that is very much their right. But, I just don't get it (the only way I would get it is if it were someone with thousands upon thousands of coins and they were a one man show). >>
Agreed, but if it's a specialist in your series, you gotta deal with it, or see the coins at a show.
why not look elsewhere.
If you must have that coin,
then call and ask him about it,
I am sure he would describe it to you
and if not, go elsewhere.
If you don't like it when it arrives,
then just return it.
I had a dealer I met at a show who appeared to come in contact with alot of coins I would normally purchase. I bought one coin from him at the show and told him I would call him to discuss purchasing several coins from him in the future. This dealer goes to every show out there and due to that he comes in contact with more fresh material then I had at the time. I called this dealer and told him I would like to purchase large quantities of what I was looking for, anything from about 10k to 50k . For this dealer it would really just have been a huge hassle for him to ship 80 or so coins to me every week. It was only after I called another dealer to vouche for me that the first dealer even bothered really taking the time to talk to me. I now recieve a couple double row boxes every month of the coins I was looking for but it was honestly a huge undertaking to get to this point.
<< <i>considering the coin is only 1k hes not that worried about it >>
Wow, rude.
Likely, the dealer knows all this and is comfortable with his business plan as it is. It sounds like he actually knows his business and does not care if you (or others) patronize it.
<< <i>So, what is up with dealers like this? >>
I don't know for sure, but here's a guess... the guy's maybe got a store and has been doing coin shows and mail order for 10 or 20 years. His business has reached a point where he's satisfied with the income he's making vs. the time he needs to invest in it. Now, internet selling comes along, so he has someone set up a basic site for him and show him how to manage the listings. But it's one more thing to do, even without taking pictures of the coins he lists on the website. So he decides that taking pictures is not worth the trouble.
<< <i>Do they just not care about doing business, or what? >>
I'm sure he cares- it's just that what he cares about and what you care about are not the same things. You're asking him to do more work, and he may feel the payoff for that extra work isn't there. Since he's not the one bringing up the issue here, I don't think it necessarily means he needs a lesson in how to run his business, though.
So when customers wanted more information about a coin that wasn't shown on my website, they would call or email me and I would give them a detailed description (which I still will do along with sending a photo in case the photo doesn't depict certain qualities or issues). Plus, I always offer a liberal return policy. Though I am sure there were people who did not buy from me due to not having photos, I still had/have plenty of customers who bought from me based on my descriptions because they knew they they could trust what I was telling them about a coin and they also liked having my opinion on the quality of the coin - and I rarely had returns. So sometimes it simply comes down to trusting the person you are buying from.
The Penny Lady®
<< <i>Good coin photography is not rocket science, great photography is. There is never a good reason not to have at least decent pictures. >>
Never a good reason? With all due respect, it's easy to be free with other people's time. I generally need 60 or so pictures a week for my eBay listings- taking, editing and managing them takes 3, maybe 4 hours. Every week. Just for pictures.
If you're already running a business, how easy is it, really, to add another half a day's work to your work week?
Don't cost the lookers nothing, though.
edited to add... I think ThePennyLady posted a reasonable explanation above for why a dealer might not provide pictures, and I imagine there could be others. I'm sure every seller would love to be able to provide pictures of all the coins they have for sale, but "It would be nice if..." often seems to be trumped by the real world.
<< <i>Good coin photography is not rocket science, great photography is. There is never a good reason not to have at least decent pictures. Cameras now are pretty idiot proof, especially the dinolites which take solid images. Coins can be shot quickly with one so unless you have a turnover of several hundred coins a week, it should not be a problem. >>
Boy, some of you have such a low tolerance for those who are not like you or don't think like you. Maybe cameras are idiot proof, but some of the software that goes with it is not! I finally bought a dinolite and really like it, though its software is limited and I'm not able to brighten or lighten the coins to get truer color. In any event, maybe you could lighten up on those of us who are running their own business and doing the best we can.
The Penny Lady®
Some dealers are not geared towards dealing with the public, which entails making images nowadays. If they are geared towards dealing with the public and don't post images, perhaps they want to get the coins in your hand before you make a negative decision from an image. I don't think it is right to expect all dealers to operate the same, but if they are able to make a decent image but refuse to give you one, I'd be careful.
Coins cannot be graded by photos. I can make a good coin look bad and a bad coin look good.
I'm sorry to say I usually avoid asking to see a coin if pics are not available. I don't take coin pics myself and have no scanner so I'm acutely aware not everyone can provide pics. However, if one is a major dealer, I think pics should be offered. It's OK having a good return privilege available but there is a definite hassle factor in making returns. A decent pic will almost always tell me in advance if I want to keep the coin. My only problem has been losing out to fellow collectors who immediately jump on a picless coin. I know to accept these occasional defeats as part of my want to see a pic first predilection. Live by the sword, die by the sword. After many long years, I do a decent job of handling disappointments.
does not want to deal with you.
Sorry, but it may be that he doesn't think of you as a "valued customer".
bob
<< <i>There is nothing at all wrong with saying "As a buyer, I want X." The logical disconnect occurrs when you find that the seller doesn't offer X and you follow that up with "The seller doesn't know how to run a business." >>
I agree.
<< <i>
<< <i>There is nothing at all wrong with saying "As a buyer, I want X." The logical disconnect occurrs when you find that the seller doesn't offer X and you follow that up with "The seller doesn't know how to run a business." >>
I agree. >>
Word.
<< <i>
<< <i>considering the coin is only 1k hes not that worried about it >>
Wow, rude. >>
My statement was not intended to be rude at all. I apologize if it came out that way somehow.
I was simply pointing out that some dealers are not concerned when it comes to certian coins that they can just as easy sell at any show. As pointed out by a few others taking pictures is in fact alot of work. I have to image every coin I recieve. In any given week I will recieve roughly 200 to 600 coins. I have to take at least three images of all coins, obverse, reverse, full slab. That is a minimum of 600 images and thats if I am lucky and dont have to take multiple images to achieve what the coin looks like in hand. After all the images are taken I then have to name all of them with grade,holder,type,cert #, obverse, reverse, full slab. After they are all named then I have to crop all of them and put them all on black backgrounds, Obverse shot on single black back ground for ebay, obverse and reverse on black background together, crop full slab. If you take all that work for the 600 plus images ive taken in any given week it relates to ALOT of time.
Several dealers are just simply not going to put any work into coin photography due to the fact most of there buisness is done at show or something. I put alot of work into images and I will even reshoot coins for people who ask. I just dont think that saying someone doesnt know how to run there buisness because they didnt give you an image was a bit rough. I agree when selling coins there should be images but you cant excpect other people to always give you what you want. Just find another online dealer who will give you images of the coins you ask about and problem solved. I think the dealer should have either described the coin in detail if he or she was unable to image it for you or asked if you would like to see it in hand. I dont control other dealers though so I cant judge.
Yep...gotta go with that...if the proprietor is comfortable with his business as is (and in this case not supplying pictures) then so be it. If his customers or potential customers go somewhere else because of a lack of something in the business the business will eventually run out of customers. If the B&M has more than enough customers coming in the door and does not really need to dip their toe into having a photo setup and managing email photos etc. then that is their right. If they lose business over it so be it, their choice and the buyers choice to shop somewhere else.
That being said there are many dealers I would by based on description alone...no photo needed at all....but if I did not know of the dealer I would pass if I could not confirm that the desc is accurate and a photo was not available.
K
<< <i>
<< <i>There is nothing at all wrong with saying "As a buyer, I want X." The logical disconnect occurrs when you find that the seller doesn't offer X and you follow that up with "The seller doesn't know how to run a business." >>
>>
I agree with that statement. I am also one of those dealers that needs to outsource all photography jobs to another party because I don't have the resources nor enough time to photograph all the coins I have for sale.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
With a new seller I simply start with a few cheaper purchases to see how the coin matches the description. If I'm pleased with the results then I've found another seller to build a trusted relationship with.
Collecting:
Conder tokens
19th & 20th Century coins from Great Britain and the Realm
Folks that know how to take decent pictures take it for granted how easy it is to them now. They fail to see how difficult it might be for someone that doesn't even own a digital camera, doesn't know how to upload photos, and such. The dealer in question might just be learning computers and just doing email was hard enough to learn. Plenty of bourse dealers still don't have websites, much less photos on the website. Some of them do very, very well, without all that stuff, and don't need any lessons about business. Maybe they could use a few lessons on cameras and computers, but haven't yet found the time in their 80 hour work weeks.
Larry L
<< <i>Like others have said, maybe just getting a basic website was a huge step. Folks take so much for granted. Taking decent pictures can easily take many weeks or many months to learn, plus a decent monetary investment for equipment. Then there is the ongoing time to take new pics. The dealer might already be working 60 to 100 hours a week if they have a store and do shows and now do mail order over the internet. Add a few more hours, sure, no problem. Take a couple of months learning to take decent photos, sure no problem.
Folks that know how to take decent pictures take it for granted how easy it is to them now. They fail to see how difficult it might be for someone that doesn't even own a digital camera, doesn't know how to upload photos, and such. The dealer in question might just be learning computers and just doing email was hard enough to learn. Plenty of bourse dealers still don't have websites, much less photos on the website. Some of them do very, very well, without all that stuff, and don't need any lessons about business. Maybe they could use a few lessons on cameras and computers, but haven't yet found the time in their 80 hour work weeks. >>
I have to disagree. I spent about 30 minutes with the people from dino-lite at the ANA show and yes I had a background in shooting coins but they taught me a whole new way of shooting coins especially for those with colors. They showed how to adjust everything including brightness and coloring. Only equipment was the camera and a normal desk lamp.
<< <i>
<< <i>Like others have said, maybe just getting a basic website was a huge step. Folks take so much for granted. Taking decent pictures can easily take many weeks or many months to learn, plus a decent monetary investment for equipment. Then there is the ongoing time to take new pics. The dealer might already be working 60 to 100 hours a week if they have a store and do shows and now do mail order over the internet. Add a few more hours, sure, no problem. Take a couple of months learning to take decent photos, sure no problem.
Folks that know how to take decent pictures take it for granted how easy it is to them now. They fail to see how difficult it might be for someone that doesn't even own a digital camera, doesn't know how to upload photos, and such. The dealer in question might just be learning computers and just doing email was hard enough to learn. Plenty of bourse dealers still don't have websites, much less photos on the website. Some of them do very, very well, without all that stuff, and don't need any lessons about business. Maybe they could use a few lessons on cameras and computers, but haven't yet found the time in their 80 hour work weeks. >>
I have to disagree. I spent about 30 minutes with the people from dino-lite at the ANA show and yes I had a background in shooting coins but they taught me a whole new way of shooting coins especially for those with colors. They showed how to adjust everything including brightness and coloring. Only equipment was the camera and a normal desk lamp. >>
I would like to see one of your photos of a toned proof!!
On another note if you have to adjust everything after the image is taken, not only does that take alot of time but you should not have to be adjusting every coin you image.
you must be a buyer who needs a lesson in acquisition
Even if you are buying from a respectable dealer it's still hard to purchase without seeing images first, especially when you're spending more than a Grand.
If Joe Blow is selling a coin you want or need and describes the coin as having great toning, this doesn't necessarily mean you will agree with his opinion when you receive the coin.
So why not at least pick up a $50 camera off ebay and show off the goods. I mean what year is this again???
<< <i>Personally I have never purchased a coin through the Internet without seeing images first. The hassle of shipping coins back is not all that fun to me.
Even if you are buying from a respectable dealer it's still hard to purchase without seeing images first, especially when you're spending more than a Grand.
If Joe Blow is selling a coin you want or need and describes the coin as having great toning, this doesn't necessarily mean you will agree with his opinion when you receive the coin.
So why not at least pick up a $50 camera off ebay and show off the goods. I mean what year is this again??? >>
Thank you.
that he thinks I may like it
and I did.
and if I didn't he would insist
that I return it.
That's the kind of dealer you want to work with.
<< <i>mrpotatoheadd, you said it all in a very concise manner! My compliments. >>
Thanks to all above for the vote of confidence.
<< <i>So why not at least pick up a $50 camera off ebay and show off the goods. I mean what year is this again??? >>
Because some sellers apparently don't want to, regardless of what year it is. Just as a reminder, this thread wasn't started by a dealer complaining about requests to provide images.
If you (in general) expect other people to adjust their business practices to suit your preferences, I predict continued disappointment/frustration for you as you attempt to shop for coins, online or otherwise.
<< <i>If you (in general) expect other people to adjust their business practices to suit your preferences, I predict continued disappointment/frustration for you as you attempt to shop for coins, online or otherwise. >>
I agree with this too.
Do the dealers in Coin World have scans? Don't think so.
It takes a lot of time and effort to maintain a web page let alone scans. Every business has a cost - volume - profit relationship. I get all kinda questions on pics of coins I have on the Bay at times and these are good, clear scans. Some I will ignore bc the guy should be at a show with a 10x glass, most I will research and determine the nature of the problem if there is time, and others I simply remind them there is a return priveledge. Providing a good scan is not always good enough as some of them simply need to go to a show and buy sight seen. A dealer should not be the one to tell them that.
<< <i>Personally I have never purchased a coin through the Internet without seeing images first. The hassle of shipping coins back is not all that fun to me.
Even if you are buying from a respectable dealer it's still hard to purchase without seeing images first, especially when you're spending more than a Grand.
If Joe Blow is selling a coin you want or need and describes the coin as having great toning, this doesn't necessarily mean you will agree with his opinion when you receive the coin.
So why not at least pick up a $50 camera off ebay and show off the goods. I mean what year is this again??? >>
As I said before, I can make a good coin look really bad. What good does a picture do you? You might stay away from an incredible coin just because I can't photograph it well. (I am not a dealer and don't photograph coins for dealers. This is just hypothetical). I can make a white coin yellow, blue, red. I can remove spots. I have a hard time capturing toning. Proof coins are extremely hard not to get glare.
I can give you a crappy picture from a $500 camera but it's unlikely you would buy from a crappy picture. It makes more sense for dealers to allow you to return it if you don't like it and be able to see it in hand. isn't that the purpose of all these third and fourth tier grading companies and opinions?
If I were you, I'd give up buying online and stick to trusted dealers and then you won't have to worry about it. Either that, or only buy at coin shows.
First Place Winner of the 2005 Rampage design contest!
A dealer is ablet to maintain 100% accurate
inventory records. Also having no sales, means,
no income taxes need to be paid.
Camelot
What I see, on this issue, is this:
* A good relationship (trust what the dealer says about the coin) can overcome the need for pics (I have bought coins from Mark Feld and, once he knew what I liked, no pics necessary...though they are appreciated).
* I would not care about pictures of "widgets" (modern coins that are untoned or even generic, lower grade, classics)
* People that CAN take pictures need to understand that not everyone else can....don't be down on them for it (sure, they could get a cheap camera, get some cheap help, etc, but that may be out of their comfort zone...don't like it? Move on. I would like to buy from a certain "Specialist" but I don't go to enough shows and his website has no pictures, so I moved on since I am not after widgets from him)
* Pictures can be manipulated so they aren't everything (see 1st point above)
* I don't want to buy without pics anyway, unless it is from one of the 1st two points, as someone eats shipping. I don't want to eat it and I feel bad if the dealer does. I honestly do feel bad. And, that may inhibit some debatable purchases from them in the future (in case I don't like the coin in hand, why do I continually want to be out $10+ each time?)
That all said, while I do understand, and respect, dealers not doing the entire "need pictures" thing, I also would hope they are fine with their business the way it is because, if they have quality coins, they are most likely leaving money on the table.
And, a lot of my "shopping" is done late at night (after the kid is asleep and I can unwind from work). I am sure these dealers don't want me calling at 10pm, 11pm, midnight, 1am West Coast time.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Why some people think you're making a long distance phone call to buy a coin to fill a hole in a Whitman folder. That you wouldn't ever need to know any more about a coin than it's date and what they grade it are some very ignorant people.
Leo
The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
My Jefferson Nickel Collection