'Cleaned' coin hypothetical
tradedollarnut
Posts: 20,177 ✭✭✭✭✭
Pretend you're a dealer and you have the following occur. What would you do?
A customer emails you demanding his money back for a coin he purchased from you a while back. You sold it to him in a PCGS MS64 holder. He thought it was undergraded, so he cracked it himself and sent it in raw where it graded MS64 again. He still thought it undergraded, so he had a dealer crack it again and submit it, whereupon it bodybagged for cleaning.
A customer emails you demanding his money back for a coin he purchased from you a while back. You sold it to him in a PCGS MS64 holder. He thought it was undergraded, so he cracked it himself and sent it in raw where it graded MS64 again. He still thought it undergraded, so he had a dealer crack it again and submit it, whereupon it bodybagged for cleaning.
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Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Do dealers really have to cope with this stuff? Or is this just a hypothetical question about something that never ever happens? (that is another dealer question by the way)
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Yogi Berra
A) returning the coin to me in a PCGS MS64 holder for a refund
or
<< <i>Pretend you're a dealer and you have the following occur. What would you do?
A customer emails you demanding his money back for a coin he purchased from you a while back. You sold it to him in a PCGS MS64 holder. He thought it was undergraded, so he cracked it himself and sent it in raw where it graded MS64 again. He still thought it undergraded, so he had a dealer crack it again and submit it, whereupon it bodybagged for cleaning. >>
tell him to crack out the rest of his coins, of course.
K S
Here's one back at you:
What if, instead, he sent the coin to the CAC and was told by JA that the coin could not sticker because it had been cleaned?
The sale became unreturnable as soon as it was cracked from the dealers original slab.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Once he cracked the coin out, the product has been altered, and the dealer owes him zilch. Anyway, the MS-64 grade may have been the net grade as a result of the cleaning (ie. MS-65 appearance, net MS-64 for cleaning).
Here's one back at you:
What if, instead, he sent the coin to the CAC and was told by JA that the coin could not sticker because it had been cleaned? >>
Depends. Is it within the return period?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
(ring ring)- Hello- TDN's Rare coin Shoppe, how may I help you?
Buyer: Hey TDN, remember that PCGS 64 trade dollar you sold me 5 years ago, telling me it was under graded? Well, I cracked it out and sent it back to PCGS and it came back as a 64, so I being PO'd about this, I took it to another dealer who cracked it again and sent it in, and this time it came back cleaned.What ya gonna do about that Mr. TDN????
TDN: Who are you again????
click.
Ken
As the dealer I'd try to be nice about explaining how unreasonable the refund request is... maybe send him a link to this thread.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Greed can be very costly. ; )
I have collected U.S coins for many years, and then Civil War Tokens, but am now actively building a collection of 18th Century Conder Tokens, the coins that made the Industrial Revolution a whopping success. : )
<< <i>I would immediately suspect that the customer had cleaned the coin before its last submission.
Greed can be very costly. ; ) >>
Hmmmm. Never thought about this..............
The name is LEE!
<< <i>Please forgive my ignorance but couldn't the customer have the coin reholdered with the MS 64 grade that he got before giving it to the second dealer? If they wouldn't do it, then we have to ass u me that the second dealer screwed the coin up and is responsible since he cracked out the coin - assuming the coin has been cleaned. In either case, the original dealer would not be responsbile. >>
Ha! You never know what will happen when you crack and resubmit. I wouldn't blame the dealer at all. The easiest way for me to cut my collection's value by 2/3 is to crack them all and resubmit them. I guarentee you 75% would not grade the same and at least 20% would bag for some reason.
The dealer cracked the coin out, right?
If so, I suspect any competent dealer would discuss this with the owner first...the possibility that the grade (or non-grade) may not be what the owner is looking for.
Was the coin cracked out (by the dealer) and packaged in front of the owner?
If not, there would have to be doubt in the owner's mind about what happened between the time he handed over the coin & the time when the coin actually shipped.
I don't know legally who would be responsible....I suspect there's no guarantee's, so the owner is SOL, but I would suspect the dealer has lost a customer.
BTW- It must have been sent to NGC as PCGS no longer BB for cleaning.
I don't think so. By cracking it out he took the gamble and lost, not your fault.
john
And isn't there the possibility that a raw coin sent back is not the same one as the certified coin sold.
The buyer was taking the chance the dealer need not take the consequences of the buyers actions.
"If the coin does not upgrade or is bodybagged after 2 successive crackings, we hereby guarantee that the coin can be returned for a full refund...."
Subsequently followed by a notice in the paper, "......the liquidation auction for the remaining inventory of xyz coin company will be held..........."
I knew it would happen.
My reply dealt with Dealer #2, the one who cracked the coin & sent the coin in.
<< <i>Pretend you're a dealer and you have the following occur. What would you do?
A customer emails you demanding his money back for a coin he purchased from you a while back. You sold it to him in a PCGS MS64 holder. He thought it was undergraded, so he cracked it himself and sent it in raw where it graded MS64 again. He still thought it undergraded, so he had a dealer crack it again and submit it, whereupon it bodybagged for cleaning. >>
I would make the customer the following offer, either a) get the coin reholdered in MS 64 plastic and I will repurchase it, or b) repurchase it less grading fees. Bottom line: If I believed enough in the coin to sell it, I should believe in the coin still and repurchase it.
Then again, I'm no coin dealer...Mike
A PITA customer on every purchase that returns a majority of the coins? What was the value/cost when sold to the customer? What is the value of the coin "cleaned"?
There is the black and white type of answer, which many have given so far, and there is the business one that has more things that should be taken into account.
If this is a customer that doesn't usually haggle and makes the dealer a LOT of money, often, then that should be taken into account, by a smart dealer. If the customer is a crack out type of person who is a PITA and the coin's initial value, vs the clean value, is quite a big discrepancy, that is another thing as well.
So, for me, not enough info to make a good business decision on this.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>Pretend you're a dealer and you have the following occur. What would you do?
A customer emails you demanding his money back for a coin he purchased from you a while back. You sold it to him in a PCGS MS64 holder. He thought it was undergraded, so he cracked it himself and sent it in raw where it graded MS64 again. He still thought it undergraded, so he had a dealer crack it again and submit it, whereupon it bodybagged for cleaning. >>
....and he told you all of this..???....It was certified twice then at ms64...and he took the chance of letting someone else handle the coin to submit it.I believe as collectors we all know the caveats of submitting coins......SUBMIT it AGAIN...!!!!....
Thought this was a trick question if anything, or a slam dunk answer!!
I (or you) really have no idea or control of what possibly happens once the coin is out of your hands (sold or what have you), and has SINCE been outside of the original slab. The best thing to do to defend one's self, is have pictures of the old (slabbed) coin vs. the BB. Even then if there is no difference, (which the ORIGINAL dealer should not have to be involved with), the coin was (sold) in a slab, graded, and...
Done deal.
This has actually happened to me once. Slabbed NGC, took it out, sent in raw to PCGS, and got BB. I felt it was my own fault for taking it out of the NGC slab to begin with, and didn't even think of contacting the seller for any kind of blame (auction house anyway). What am I supposed to say??? In this case, NGC I guess was wrong in grading it, and I was wrong in... buying it.
Nothing should ever be set in stone!
In most cases, yes its a done deal, however if the customer is a multi million dollar customer and has learned from his misfortune.
Well that could be a different story
"Demanding"? First, I'd explain that I have no obligation to buy the coin back, and that if he wants me to consider refunding the money, he'll need to ask nicely. Assuming the client does not hang up, the next step would be to ask for a look at the coin. After getting a look at the coin, the next step will depend on many variables.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Alas, for the purposes of a transaction, the fact is that PCGS 64 coin is not the same ITEM as a PCGS BB coin - absent any precluding agreement to the contrary with the seller, the buyer took full responsibility for his subsequent losses the moment he altered the nature of the good being exchanged.
>>>My Collection
<< <i>Is this a trick question?
As the dealer I'd try to be nice about explaining how unreasonable the refund request is... maybe send him a link to this thread. >>
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
For that matter...setting aside the crackout business...would the average dealer give a refund for a coin that was purchased "a while back"? No (unless he wanted to for his own reasons).
Now, if the customer is a great one the dealer values, perhaps he might look for some middle ground. But IMO it's entirely up to the dealer to do something or nothing. He has no obligation.
Lance.
<< <i>In this scenario, imagine that, on the most recent submission, the coin had been determined to be counterfeit, not just cleaned. >>
I was just thinking about that scenario. I know it's been discussed here before.
<< <i>Believe or not, most numismatists believe that there would still be no recourse against the seller. >>
IMO, if you buy a coin which has a PCGS guarantee of authenticity and try to return the coin without that guarantee intact, you have compromised the value of the item and the seller shouldn't be expected to refund you your purchase price.
LOL.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>So what's the answer? Did TDN get his money back?
The answer will be posted seven years from now, on a Thursday.
Will’sProoflikes
In a rising market, if you think the coin is OK - refund the outdated price.
In a falling market - AMF.
<< <i>Pretend you're a dealer and you have the following occur. What would you do?
A customer emails you demanding his money back for a coin he purchased from you a while back. You sold it to him in a PCGS MS64 holder. He thought it was undergraded, so he cracked it himself and sent it in raw where it graded MS64 again. He still thought it undergraded, so he had a dealer crack it again and submit it, whereupon it bodybagged for cleaning. >>
If the coin was sold in plastic and it's returned outside of the original holder, then the customer's demands are unwarranted.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
I have this situation with a pricey IHC I bought from a reputable dealer at last year's Santa Clara show. I have no expectations but I figure I'll stop by his table this fall and see what he thinks. He owes me nothing. I could have messed with the coin (though I never do). But if he takes care of me I will thank him with more purchases.
Lance.