i just think rose was a great give it all player all the time, sort of cobb-like without the venom all the time. do anything to win no matter what or where he was playing. i believe he was an all-star at 5 positions rookie of the year at 2b, would do whatever the team needed and where ever they needed it.
i respect jeter and think he may have the best baseball instincts i have or will ever see, but there was just something about rose and the way he played.
just my .02
Fred
collecting RAW Topps baseball cards 1952 Highs to 1972. looking for collector grade (somewhere between psa 4-7 condition). let me know what you have, I'll take it, I want to finish sets, I must have something you can use for trade.
looking for Topps 71-72 hi's-62-53-54-55-59, I have these sets started
These polls are worthless, unless you are over 40 you really have no clue who Pete Rose is. Heck I barely do, and I think I'm one of the old fogies here... (34)
<< <i>These polls are worthless, unless you are over 40 you really have no clue who Pete Rose is. Heck I barely do, and I think I'm one of the old fogies here... (34) >>
Old Fogies? Watch it kid ... I graduated from college before you started Kindergarten! LMAO
STAY HEALTHY!
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
Most certainly Rose. He played four positions well....1B, 2B (I think?), 3B, OF. He had incredible contact, only Ichiro, Boggs, and maybe Carew can be compared. Im not a numbers cruncher nor do I care what those stats show. Im just talking about what I was fortunate enough to watch and read.
I don't want to get into a debate of who's better, but it sounds like your response is in regards to, "Who's a better person Rose or Jeter? " Because Rose getting into trouble because of his gambling and lying has nothing to do with his incredible career.
I am buying and trading for RC's of Wilt Chamberlain, George Mikan, Bill Russell, Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, and Bob Cousy! Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
<< <i>Rose played forever like Jamie Moyer, hence the stats.
Jeter looked like a fool in the WBC this year. >>
I hate to publicly do this, but you are an idiot sometimes Kevin.
Look at some of Pete Rose's career highlights. The majority of his highlights have NOTHING to do with playing many years in the bigs. Also, his 3000th hit came in 1978 which was only his 17th year in the bigs.....Moyer isn't even sniffing the 300 wins and he's almost 50 years old. LMAO
If Pete Rose retired in 1983 which would have been a 20 year career, he'd still be one of the greatest players ever.
Career highlights and awards
* 3× World Series champion (1975, 1976 & 1980) * 3× NL Batting Champion (1968, 1969 & 1973) * 7× NL Hits Leader (1965, 1968, 1970, 1972, 1973, 1976 & 1981) * 17× NL All-Star (1965, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982 & 1985) * NL Rookie of the Year (1963) * Sporting News Player of the Year (1968) * Hutch Award (1968) * Lou Gehrig Memorial Award (1969) * Gold Glove Award (1969 & 1970) * National League MVP (1973) * World Series MVP (1975) * Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year (1975) * Hickok Belt (1975) * Roberto Clemente Award (1976) * Sporting News Player of the Decade (1970s) * Silver Slugger Award (1981) * 44 game hitting streak 1978 * Sporting News Sportsman of the Year (1985) * ABC's Wide World of Sports Athlete of the Year (1985) * Major League Baseball All-Century Team (1999)
Jeter has right now through age 33 has an OPS+ of 121 in 9,633 plate apperances, so he has some catching up to do! So lets compare the two where they stack up in various stages of their career.
Through 9,600 plate appearances Jeter OPS+ 121 Rose OPS+ 127
So, at this stage in Jeter's plate apperances, Rose was the better hitter, and provided more hitting value. Edge Rose.
Through 12,176 plate appearances Jeter OPS+ ??? Will know in about three seasons. Rose OPS+126
My hunch is that it will still be edge for Rose at this point, even counting defense.
I think a lot of people would be surprised to see that at this point in the number of plate appearances that Rose was still at the 126 mark for OPS+. Jeter is already behind Rose 2,500 plate appearances ago, and now Jeter will actually have to increase his hitting rate at an incredible mark as he gets older...in order to catch up to Rose's productio at this point.
Then Rose had the down phase of his career where his OPS+ was 92 for his next, and last, 3,685 plate appearances, leading too... Career OPS+ Jeter ???? Rose 118
A lot depends on Jeter's next 2,500 PA, before we get to the career stage. We will see if Jeter is still capable of holding a MLB job after 12,000 plate apperances, or if he will still be good enough to play...and see how far he slips down...or possibly sustain better than Rose did.
Jeter has some catching up to do. I would have to go with Rose hitting-wise.
Defensively? Rose did play 2B for a while, so that helps. Jeter has been traditionally below average defensively, though he manned a tough defensive position. Let's see how close it is in the end, hitting-wise, before the defense can make the determination. Jeter being able to play SS for this long is a positive for him, compared to Rose who had to move to the corner.
Or, look at their TOP OPS+ seasons to see who's star did shine a little brighter... Rose........Jeter 158..........153 152..........132 141..........128 138..........127 134..........127 THIS YEAR 132..........125 130..........125 130..........123 127..........121 125..........114 119..........111 118..........103 115...........102 Last Season 115...........101 115 101 99 99 94 90 80 69 61*partial season in 1986
JETER has at least 2 that any yankee fan can name......
Rose signature image is of him diving head first into third base(hopped up)...... >>
Let's see, two that immediately come to mind:
1970 All-Star Game, Rose barrels into Ray Fosse, knocking him out and scoring a run. 1980 Playoffs/World Series, Pop-up next to 1B dugout, Bob Boone catches/bobbles/drops it...Rose there to make the catch as the ball comes out of Boone's glove and is about to hit the turf.
how about rose sliding head first into 3rd base, about 2 feet off the ground going in. that is a play they show everytime they do a highlight show of rose and epitomizes the way he played all the time. a signature play would be a play they completed many times, something they do all the time, that would be rose's play. jeters i think would be the scissor kick throw to first going to his right, that is his signature. their most memorable play would be going into the stand by jeter and taking out fosse at home in the all-star game.
just my .02
Fred
collecting RAW Topps baseball cards 1952 Highs to 1972. looking for collector grade (somewhere between psa 4-7 condition). let me know what you have, I'll take it, I want to finish sets, I must have something you can use for trade.
looking for Topps 71-72 hi's-62-53-54-55-59, I have these sets started
<< <i>Defensively? Rose did play 2B for a while, so that helps. Jeter has been traditionally below average defensively, though he manned a tough defensive position. Let's see how close it is in the end, hitting-wise, before the defense can make the determination. Jeter being able to play SS for this long is a positive for him, compared to Rose who had to move to the corner. >>
Baseball, above is a quote of mine in that lengthy post. Jeter gains an advantage defensively by being able to handle SS for this long. Rose makes up some of that ground by handling second base for about 5,400 innings.
Rose did move to other spots, but I am not sure how much to penalize him for being moved to the corner when in all probability he could have continued to play 2B at a similar(or better) defensive rate that Jeter has played SS. Rose certainly held his own defensively at 2B, and I don't have much doubt that he could have done that for several more seasons.
In other words, we may be penalizing Rose's defensive value because of a managerial decision that may have had more to do with the team's situation, than Rose's defensive ability. That may not be entirely fair.
Hitting-wise, Rose is ahead. Toughness of OPS+ in their era's? Actually, Rose's era was tougher for the stars to outdistance the league average, not Jeter's. Steroids do cloud that picture, but keep in mind that the offensive jump in baseball occured nearly 'over night' and there are other very important factors, OTHER THAN steroids that caused that jump. Factors that most certainly a guy like Jeter(or any star hitter) woud benefit from. And no, I would not rule out Jeter doing any PED's that nearly all others in MLB did too.
For exmaple...The crackdown on inside pitching in MLB has allowed hitters(think Bagwell as the extreme) to simply own the outside part of the plate as well as the inside. Jeter would have a harder time hitting like he does if the PITCHERS were allowed to own the inside part of the plate, and not him. Think the body armor factor.
P.S. I like your Torre example!! . Guys like Torre, and Ted Simmons, who could hit AND manage a tough defenisve position are so underrated it is ridiculous. Those guys are better than people like Rice...glad you brought that up . Though, like I said, Rose proved he could handle a tough defensive position as well...and I am not sure it is fair to penalize him moving from there when he could have done as well at 2B as Jeter has done at SS, compared to their league peers.
Here are Pete Rose's fielding runs above the average player(from baseball-prospectus) at 2B
-10 -4 12 -3 4 -1 Total is -2 for his career as a 2B. So he hovered, right around average, and he still had fine agility when he moved out of 2B.
For a frame of reference, jeter is -100 for his career at SS. As always, defenisve numbers are hazy, but Jeter's corellates well with the video study of defense. But in this case, I am not sure at all that I would give Jeter so much extra credit above Rose in regard to their positions.
Baseball...all valid points you make. To be frank, I am not sure I am ready, or able, to tackle the steroid situation in terms of how it affects the league average, and the fairness in being compared to it. The first hurdle to overcome is that we will never know if anybody was truly clean...even Jeter. Though if 80% of the league did it, and he certainly did not, then you have a strong argument to make up that 6 point OPS+ difference.
In regard to Rose being over-praised, I would have to agree with you. He really only did have a couple of seasons where his hitting would be considered top tier....compared to the elite hitters of his era. To put him with a guy like Mickey Mantle would be absurd. His charlie hustle stuff is already recorded in his base hits and such. No need to double count his hustle.
Jeter really didn't have elite hitting years like that either. If you look at Rose's numbers and then associate him with being a capable MLB second baseman, I believe his numbers are worth a bit more than the typical outfielder you are comparing him to who is not capable of playing 2B.
Rose proved that he could handle second base at the MLB level, and to only compare him to other outfielders because a manager moved him to the outfield for the team situation(or because of a misjudgement on defense ability), is not quite fair.
How different would you view Rose with 15,000 innings at second base?
I would add that for Rose's career, his OPS with Men on base, compared to nobody on base is 90 points higher! That is quite high. So his hits were worth a bit more when dug deeper.
In contrast, Jeter actually hit better with NOBODY ON, 19 OPS points higher than with men on base.
That is a large difference between the two, and to be fair, it makes the OPS+ point difference a bit wider than what it states above.
I have to agree with the analysis that if a 3500 game career cannot be simplified into one play the guy must have been worse than anyone who made one good play at one time in their life
While Rose has the edge in OPS+, a greater percentage of that comes from obp, so the difference is even bigger than what Hoops showed
Whoever said Rose played second and third well is mistaken. He played third only because the Reds were best with Rose, Foster and Griffey in the lineup, not because that is where he was the best fielder. He was very good in leftfield and rightfield, mediocre at best in the infield. While shortstop might be a much harder position to fill with a good hitter, being able to play multiple positions at least passably does help a team a lot
It's close, like others have expressed, I'll go with Rose and give Jeter a chance at overtaking him within the next few years
fandango
Posts: 2,622 ✭
Comments
Steve
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
i respect jeter and think he may have the best baseball instincts i have or will ever see, but there was just something about rose and the way he played.
just my .02
collecting RAW Topps baseball cards 1952 Highs to 1972. looking for collector grade (somewhere between psa 4-7 condition). let me know what you have, I'll take it, I want to finish sets, I must have something you can use for trade.
looking for Topps 71-72 hi's-62-53-54-55-59, I have these sets started
looking for PELLE LINDBERGH's psa and 1960 fleer baseball psa 8 and up
sets in progress
R.I.P. Barstow 24 April 1999 - May 15 2009
<< <i>These polls are worthless, unless you are over 40 you really have no clue who Pete Rose is. Heck I barely do, and I think I'm one of the old fogies here... (34) >>
Old Fogies? Watch it kid ... I graduated from college before you started Kindergarten! LMAO
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
<< <i>Hmmmm. Cheater or Jeter? >>
I don't want to get into a debate of who's better, but it sounds like your response is in regards to, "Who's a better person Rose or Jeter? " Because Rose getting into trouble because of his gambling and lying has nothing to do with his incredible career.
Brian
Jeter looked like a fool in the WBC this year.
Don't waste your time and fees listing on ebay before getting in touch me by PM or at gregmo32@aol.com !
<< <i>Stupid poll. Rose by a country mile. >>
thats your opinion...
some say jeter is the greatest shortstop ever....
some say rose was the greatest Gambler ever....
<< <i>Rose played forever like Jamie Moyer, hence the stats.
Jeter looked like a fool in the WBC this year. >>
I hate to publicly do this, but you are an idiot sometimes Kevin.
Look at some of Pete Rose's career highlights. The majority of his highlights have NOTHING to do with playing many years in the bigs. Also, his 3000th hit came in 1978 which was only his 17th year in the bigs.....Moyer isn't even sniffing the 300 wins and he's almost 50 years old. LMAO
If Pete Rose retired in 1983 which would have been a 20 year career, he'd still be one of the greatest players ever.
Career highlights and awards
* 3× World Series champion (1975, 1976 & 1980)
* 3× NL Batting Champion (1968, 1969 & 1973)
* 7× NL Hits Leader (1965, 1968, 1970, 1972, 1973, 1976 & 1981)
* 17× NL All-Star (1965, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971, 1973, 1974, 1975, 1976, 1977, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1981, 1982 & 1985)
* NL Rookie of the Year (1963)
* Sporting News Player of the Year (1968)
* Hutch Award (1968)
* Lou Gehrig Memorial Award (1969)
* Gold Glove Award (1969 & 1970)
* National League MVP (1973)
* World Series MVP (1975)
* Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year (1975)
* Hickok Belt (1975)
* Roberto Clemente Award (1976)
* Sporting News Player of the Decade (1970s)
* Silver Slugger Award (1981)
* 44 game hitting streak 1978
* Sporting News Sportsman of the Year (1985)
* ABC's Wide World of Sports Athlete of the Year (1985)
* Major League Baseball All-Century Team (1999)
* Sporting News Player of the Decade (1970s)
But lets first examine Rose being looked at as a hanger-on for his baseball legacy.
Just as he started to lose his prime, Rose had the following career totals...
Plate appearances 12,176
Hits 3372
BA .312
OB% .381
SLG% .432
OPS+ 126
Jeter has right now through age 33 has an OPS+ of 121 in 9,633 plate apperances, so he has some catching up to do! So lets compare the two where they stack up in various stages of their career.
Through 9,600 plate appearances
Jeter OPS+ 121
Rose OPS+ 127
So, at this stage in Jeter's plate apperances, Rose was the better hitter, and provided more hitting value. Edge Rose.
Through 12,176 plate appearances
Jeter OPS+ ??? Will know in about three seasons.
Rose OPS+126
My hunch is that it will still be edge for Rose at this point, even counting defense.
I think a lot of people would be surprised to see that at this point in the number of plate appearances that Rose was still at the 126 mark for OPS+. Jeter is already behind Rose 2,500 plate appearances ago, and now Jeter will actually have to increase his hitting rate at an incredible mark as he gets older...in order to catch up to Rose's productio at this point.
Then Rose had the down phase of his career where his OPS+ was 92 for his next, and last, 3,685 plate appearances, leading too...
Career OPS+
Jeter ????
Rose 118
A lot depends on Jeter's next 2,500 PA, before we get to the career stage. We will see if Jeter is still capable of holding a MLB job after 12,000 plate apperances, or if he will still be good enough to play...and see how far he slips down...or possibly sustain better than Rose did.
Jeter has some catching up to do. I would have to go with Rose hitting-wise.
Defensively? Rose did play 2B for a while, so that helps. Jeter has been traditionally below average defensively, though he manned a tough defensive position. Let's see how close it is in the end, hitting-wise, before the defense can make the determination. Jeter being able to play SS for this long is a positive for him, compared to Rose who had to move to the corner.
Or, look at their TOP OPS+ seasons to see who's star did shine a little brighter...
Rose........Jeter
158..........153
152..........132
141..........128
138..........127
134..........127 THIS YEAR
132..........125
130..........125
130..........123
127..........121
125..........114
119..........111
118..........103
115...........102 Last Season
115...........101
115
101
99
99
94
90
80
69
61*partial season in 1986
Dave
<< <i>if LMM would have said Jeter, then I woulda said Rose.
LOL...you may have said Jeter but I know you voted Rose
1994 Pro Line Live
TheDallasCowboyBackfieldProject
JETER has at least 2 that any yankee fan can name......
Rose signature image is of him diving head first into third base(hopped up)......
<< <i>does Rose have any SIGNATURE PLAYS?
JETER has at least 2 that any yankee fan can name......
Rose signature image is of him diving head first into third base(hopped up)...... >>
Let's see, two that immediately come to mind:
1970 All-Star Game, Rose barrels into Ray Fosse, knocking him out and scoring a run.
1980 Playoffs/World Series, Pop-up next to 1B dugout, Bob Boone catches/bobbles/drops it...Rose there to make the catch as the ball comes out of Boone's glove and is about to hit the turf.
Steve
Jeter has The Catch and The Play......
just my .02
collecting RAW Topps baseball cards 1952 Highs to 1972. looking for collector grade (somewhere between psa 4-7 condition). let me know what you have, I'll take it, I want to finish sets, I must have something you can use for trade.
looking for Topps 71-72 hi's-62-53-54-55-59, I have these sets started
<< <i>Defensively? Rose did play 2B for a while, so that helps. Jeter has been traditionally below average defensively, though he manned a tough defensive position. Let's see how close it is in the end, hitting-wise, before the defense can make the determination. Jeter being able to play SS for this long is a positive for him, compared to Rose who had to move to the corner.
>>
Baseball, above is a quote of mine in that lengthy post. Jeter gains an advantage defensively by being able to handle SS for this long. Rose makes up some of that ground by handling second base for about 5,400 innings.
Rose did move to other spots, but I am not sure how much to penalize him for being moved to the corner when in all probability he could have continued to play 2B at a similar(or better) defensive rate that Jeter has played SS. Rose certainly held his own defensively at 2B, and I don't have much doubt that he could have done that for several more seasons.
In other words, we may be penalizing Rose's defensive value because of a managerial decision that may have had more to do with the team's situation, than Rose's defensive ability. That may not be entirely fair.
Hitting-wise, Rose is ahead. Toughness of OPS+ in their era's? Actually, Rose's era was tougher for the stars to outdistance the league average, not Jeter's. Steroids do cloud that picture, but keep in mind that the offensive jump in baseball occured nearly 'over night' and there are other very important factors, OTHER THAN steroids that caused that jump. Factors that most certainly a guy like Jeter(or any star hitter) woud benefit from. And no, I would not rule out Jeter doing any PED's that nearly all others in MLB did too.
For exmaple...The crackdown on inside pitching in MLB has allowed hitters(think Bagwell as the extreme) to simply own the outside part of the plate as well as the inside. Jeter would have a harder time hitting like he does if the PITCHERS were allowed to own the inside part of the plate, and not him. Think the body armor factor.
P.S. I like your Torre example!!
Here are Pete Rose's fielding runs above the average player(from baseball-prospectus) at 2B
-10
-4
12
-3
4
-1
Total is -2 for his career as a 2B. So he hovered, right around average, and he still had fine agility when he moved out of 2B.
For a frame of reference, jeter is -100 for his career at SS. As always, defenisve numbers are hazy, but Jeter's corellates well with the video study of defense. But in this case, I am not sure at all that I would give Jeter so much extra credit above Rose in regard to their positions.
In regard to Rose being over-praised, I would have to agree with you. He really only did have a couple of seasons where his hitting would be considered top tier....compared to the elite hitters of his era. To put him with a guy like Mickey Mantle would be absurd. His charlie hustle stuff is already recorded in his base hits and such. No need to double count his hustle.
Jeter really didn't have elite hitting years like that either. If you look at Rose's numbers and then associate him with being a capable MLB second baseman, I believe his numbers are worth a bit more than the typical outfielder you are comparing him to who is not capable of playing 2B.
Rose proved that he could handle second base at the MLB level, and to only compare him to other outfielders because a manager moved him to the outfield for the team situation(or because of a misjudgement on defense ability), is not quite fair.
How different would you view Rose with 15,000 innings at second base?
I would add that for Rose's career, his OPS with Men on base, compared to nobody on base is 90 points higher! That is quite high. So his hits were worth a bit more when dug deeper.
In contrast, Jeter actually hit better with NOBODY ON, 19 OPS points higher than with men on base.
That is a large difference between the two, and to be fair, it makes the OPS+ point difference a bit wider than what it states above.
While Rose has the edge in OPS+, a greater percentage of that comes from obp, so the difference is even bigger than what Hoops showed
Whoever said Rose played second and third well is mistaken. He played third only because the Reds were best with Rose, Foster and Griffey in the lineup, not because that is where he was the best fielder. He was very good in leftfield and rightfield, mediocre at best in the infield. While shortstop might be a much harder position to fill with a good hitter, being able to play multiple positions at least passably does help a team a lot
It's close, like others have expressed, I'll go with Rose and give Jeter a chance at overtaking him within the next few years
Matt