Has a shill ever made you pay more than you were willing to pay for a coin?
MrEureka
Posts: 24,365 ✭✭✭✭✭
Just trying to figure out how big a problem this is.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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Nope.
If you bid the amount you're willing to pay, a shill will never make a difference.
if you placed an amount as a max bid and a shiller comes and raises it just up to your max bid then clearly (though you were shilled) you were still willing to pay that amount.
if the shiller takes the coin to over your max bid then you wouldnt win the coin and never pay more than willing because of the shill
A snipe bid however can make you pay MUCH MUCH more then you wanted to pay. If two snipers come along and put moon money bids on the item with 3 seconds left to go you can end up paying way way to much
K S
To me, shilling is unethical, and against the written rules for some auction sites. So to me, shilling it is a nasty business, and if I could confirm those that do it, I would not do business with them. Why would I deal with the underhanded and unethical, when there are so many that play by the rules, and have some sense of ethics? Dealers that publicly defend shilling, are in the same neighborhood, and I am less likely to do business with them.
set a dam reserve & be done w/ it instead of playing creepy low-life games.
K S
Some sellers have a hard time getting me to even look at there auctions anymore.
I for one have found that setting a snipe at the max. I am willing to pay and letting it ride is my best insurance that it happens as little as possible anymore.
<< <i>A shill will only make you pay more but not more then you were willing to pay. 2nd chance offers are often times a result in the shill bidder winning the coin. I avoid all second chance offers unless it was what I was origionally going to pay.
A snipe bid however can make you pay MUCH MUCH more then you wanted to pay. If two snipers come along and put moon money bids on the item with 3 seconds left to go you can end up paying way way to much
So you don't think those two snipers would bid the piece up in a regular format?
Ken
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Even if you bid the max you are willing to pay you still could have gotten it cheaper if you were not shilled.
Steve
Of course, sometimes I think there are political items bidders who are ready to execute "buy" bids if that what takes to win the bid. Overall prices are lower for political items. The great coin rarities sell for millions. The "holly grail" of political items sell for no more than $50 grand or so.
Can we say fat boy Yaha...
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
I am sure in the past, shills have made me pay more than I could have paid for items I ended as high bidder on at auction
(I don't always win auctions with my MAX bid, and occasionally I win at alot lower than I was willing to bid)
<< <i>
<< <i>A shill will only make you pay more but not more then you were willing to pay. 2nd chance offers are often times a result in the shill bidder winning the coin. I avoid all second chance offers unless it was what I was origionally going to pay.
A snipe bid however can make you pay MUCH MUCH more then you wanted to pay. If two snipers come along and put moon money bids on the item with 3 seconds left to go you can end up paying way way to much
So you don't think those two snipers would bid the piece up in a regular format? >>
No. I have been cought in the snipe trouble as well. IMO the only time to bid on any auction is in the last ten seconds. There is no reason on a forum like ebay to bid the coin up before the end. About a month ago there was a coin I wanted to buy. I was willing to bid around 125.00 for the coin. I did not want to lose the coin for a little over my max. I sat there and watched the last 30 second or so of the auction, with 10 seconds to go I punched in my snipe bid of 350.00 well what do you know someone else, another forum member here did the same thing although there snipe was 325.00. I ended up paying 330.00 for a coin I thought I could snag for 130.00
When I get a second chance offer and the seller says I can have it for my Max bid, I respond that I will only pay 1 increment above the bidder below me. By refusing my offer I realize the seller was using a shill.
If I was being shilled, then I wont play the game.
Camelot
<< <i>By definition it is IMPOSSIBLE to pay more for something than you are willing to pay. So, the answer from everyone who responds should be no. >>
Perhaps on initial inspection.
But since past auction results have _something_ to do with how we value items, then a past shilled auction may also skew our valuations, and cause us to spend/bid more next time said item came up for sale; shilling may thus "improperly" change what we are willing to pay. So the answer may well be "yes."
Of course, probably for most people, the correct answer would be "I don't know."
Ed. S.
(EJS)
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
It was probably a Mercateer that outbid you untill we found out who everyone was on ebay........
Ken
<< <i>"The old days it seemed like if you bid on something there would be an instant higher bid by a new bidder. That switched out the way I bid."
It was probably a Mercateer that outbid you untill we found out who everyone was on ebay........
Ken >>
Ken,
Thanks for the Friday night reminder. That sure was fun!
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
Since PCGS changed that this place has been Ho Hum at best and the Registry Board is a totally Wrecked Disaster. Oh well all excellent things have to come to a end for some strange reason.
Ken
<< <i>By definition it is IMPOSSIBLE to pay more for something than you are willing to pay. So, the answer from everyone who responds should be no. >>
Not true if you use the nuclear snipe.
Cashback from Mr. Rebates
<< <i>
<< <i>By definition it is IMPOSSIBLE to pay more for something than you are willing to pay. So, the answer from everyone who responds should be no. >>
Not true if you use the nuclear snipe. >>
I never use the nuclear snipe! All you need to run into would be someone just shy of your nuclear snipe and you really wind up paying the over price.
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>
<< <i>By definition it is IMPOSSIBLE to pay more for something than you are willing to pay. So, the answer from everyone who responds should be no. >>
Perhaps on initial inspection.
But since past auction results have _something_ to do with how we value items, then a past shilled auction may also skew our valuations, and cause us to spend/bid more next time said item came up for sale; shilling may thus "improperly" change what we are willing to pay. So the answer may well be "yes."
Of course, probably for most people, the correct answer would be "I don't know." >>
An earlier shilled auction may very well skew your valuation of an item and thus what you would be willing to spend. So can a well managed promotion. However, regardless of the way one develops the highest price he is willing to pay for an item NOTHING can cause him to pay more than that amount. If he does pay more than that price then that was obviously not his max price after all.
<< <i>
<< <i>By definition it is IMPOSSIBLE to pay more for something than you are willing to pay. So, the answer from everyone who responds should be no. >>
Not true if you use the nuclear snipe. >>
Unless you are commiting fraud by placing a bid you are unwilling to honor then logically yes, that nuclear snipe bid must be less than or equal to what you were willing to pay.
Edit to add:
There is a difference between paying more than one wants to and what one is willing to. There is also a difference between paying more than market value and what one is willing to.
Seller has a sell price, He'll either set reserve at that price, Starting bid at that price or shill it to that price. Either way, You wouldn't get it for a lower price b/c seller wouldn't allow it. Why would the shill or owner of auctioned item bid it over the price they originally had in mind to sell? They wouldn't want to pay fees if they were outbid by the legit bidder.
I'm probably wrong but that's how I see it.
As a seller (books) I've had more than one copy of a book that I've had listed at auction and of course I'm going to exercise the Second Chance Offer, because I want to sell as many of the books as possible.
eBay sets the price used for the Second Chance Offer, which is the immediate next bid. The seller cannot change this price; it is, like so much on eBay, an aspect over which the seller has no control.
Sure, when you're talking about coins, then I'd be leary about a Second Chance Offer (unless it was something common like bullion). But, not every Second Chance Offer is evil.
<< <i>By definition it is IMPOSSIBLE to pay more for something than you are willing to pay. So, the answer from everyone who responds should be no. >>
i disagree. the issue ain't that you pay more then you are WILLING, but that you pay more then you COULD HAVE w/out the shills
ie i have WILLINGLY been shilled before
K S
Yes...and I would appreciate it if you would please keep Aki off of ebay... thank you very much...
<< <i>i disagree. the issue ain't that you pay more then you are WILLING, but that you pay more then you COULD HAVE w/out the shills
ie i have WILLINGLY been shilled before
K S >>
<< <i> Has a shill ever made you pay more than you were willing to pay for a coin? >>
Yes, Karl, but the OP didn't ask if you had been forced to pay more than you could have; he didn't even ask if you had been forced to pay more than you originally were willing to. He asked if you had been forced to pay more than you were willing to at the time of purchase.
ANY amount that one actually does pay--regardless of how that amount compares to what one normally would have paid--must logically be less than or equal to the maximum amount that one is willing to pay.
Example:
If the most one is willing to pay for a common die marriage AU 1827 bust half is 600.00 then it makes no difference how the bidding gets to that amount--whether it opens at that price, is bid up to that amount by actual bidders, or is shilled up to that level--nothing can force that person to bid 650.00. If he does so then in reality 600.00 wasn't the most he was willing to spend.
No, but I have lost auctions due to shill bidding.
has a shill ever increased the amount I've paid for a coin? of course they have. Have I ever "unwillingly" bought anything? no.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>i disagree. the issue ain't that you pay more then you are WILLING, but that you pay more then you COULD HAVE w/out the shills
ie i have WILLINGLY been shilled before
K S >>
<< <i> Has a shill ever made you pay more than you were willing to pay for a coin? >>
Yes, Karl, but the OP didn't ask if you had been forced to pay more than you could have; he didn't even ask if you had been forced to pay more than you originally were willing to. He asked if you had been forced to pay more than you were willing to at the time of purchase.
ANY amount that one actually does pay--regardless of how that amount compares to what one normally would have paid--must logically be less than or equal to the maximum amount that one is willing to pay.
Example:
If the most one is willing to pay for a common die marriage AU 1827 bust half is 600.00 then it makes no difference how the bidding gets to that amount--whether it opens at that price, is bid up to that amount by actual bidders, or is shilled up to that level--nothing can force that person to bid 650.00. If he does so then in reality 600.00 wasn't the most he was willing to spend. >>
well ok good point.
maybe the thread title could be
Has a shill ever CAUSED you pay more than you were willing to pay for a coin?
to which i would say yes
K S
K S
Jay
The very definition of Teletrade!
<< <i>
<< <i>By definition it is IMPOSSIBLE to pay more for something than you are willing to pay. So, the answer from everyone who responds should be no. >>
Perhaps on initial inspection.
But since past auction results have _something_ to do with how we value items, then a past shilled auction may also skew our valuations, and cause us to spend/bid more next time said item came up for sale; shilling may thus "improperly" change what we are willing to pay. So the answer may well be "yes."
Of course, probably for most people, the correct answer would be "I don't know." >>
Yes, past shilled auctions can skew valuation for an item. Think Teletrade.
A few years back, the Millennium Set Sacagawea Dollars in NGC MS67PL would show as consistently selling for $80 on Teletrade. Almost every past auction result showed it selling for $80. So i go on eBay and bid $40 for these coins. i win a couple of them. i then send one on consignment to Teletrade. It's gonna sell surefire for $80, right? Wrong. There were other Millennium Set Sacagawea Dollars in NGC MS67PL competing with mine in the same Teletrade auction. The others would be going for $75 while mine would be going for $45, not beating my buyback of $45 and, apparently as i later discovered, not beating that seller's buyback of $75.
This went on for weeks and with multiple auctions and i did eventually sell some of mine for like $50 and $27 or maybe $33. This was a real eye-opener for me as i felt a false market was created for this coin, knowingly or unknowingly. To the casual observer researching Teletrade auction results, they'd value the coin at $80 case closed. But it turns out you weren't seeing all the other times when that coin failed to beat a $75 buyback bid. You were only seeing the times when someone was willing to pay $80. And as i watched each Teletrade auction i found out these Millennium Set Sacagawea Dollars in NGC MS67PL were in almost every auction, sometimes multiples in the same auction. Bid would be $75 and would always be bought back. Like 95% of the time these things would be bought back.
Since someone was willing to pay $80 every once in a while, doesn't that pin the market price at $80? No, not when the final auction results don't include what it would have sold for every other time without the shill bid of $75. Sure, it COULD be worth up to $80, but the actual value was more like $30 to $80. This definitely taught me a thing or two concerning market value of which i admit i was ignorant of before this episode. You have to look at auction results from multiple venues and be in-the-know to have a true feel for market value.