Pittsburgh Pirates Run To A Record 17 Consecutive Losing Seasons

JackWESQ · August 13, 2009 12:14PM

After a 10-1 pounding by the Rockies today, I thought now would be a good time to start a thread on the Pirates' run to a record 17 consecutive losing seasons. They're currently 46-68 and need only 14 more losses to reach the mark. The Pirates have 17 more games this month; so it'll likely happen in September. But they could go on a serious run and reach the magical 82nd loss mark by the end of August.

/s/ JackWESQ

Estil · August 13, 2009 3:28PM

Talk about walking the plank... Although believe it or not there is no evidence whatsoever that any real pirates actually made anyone walk the plank.

bigred1 · August 13, 2009 6:38PM

In our division, we are trying to catch them.

Morgoth · August 14, 2009 1:08AM

Hey man what the hell? Why can't we just suffer in silence, yeah who didn't know we were going to have a losing season this year. Guess what they will next year too. 2011 is their first shot at winning as Alvarez and co. will be up by then.

joestalin · August 14, 2009 1:13AM

How come there are billions of Steeler fans, but only a handful of Pirate fans and how can one team always be on top while the other always at the bottom?

strangecreature · August 14, 2009 2:10AM

<< How come there are billions of Steeler fans, but only a handful of Pirate fans and how can one team always be on top while the other always at the bottom? >>

Because in the NFL, every team has an equal chance to win. In MLB there is no equal revenue sharing so the Pirates cant afford to keep their best players.

joestalin · August 14, 2009 5:25AM

yeah but the Pirates ALWAYS suck. You can't tell me that Florida isn't in the same boat as Pitt, they have two championships and the Pirates haven't been in first
place since....the 80's?

strangecreature · August 14, 2009 5:37AM

<< yeah but the Pirates ALWAYS suck. You can't tell me that Florida isn't in the same boat as Pitt, they have two championships and the Pirates haven't been in first
place since....the 80's? >>

Most of the small market teams do suck in baseball most of the time. Remember how good the reds used to be? Very few rich teams like the red sox and Yankees can afford to pay top dollar to keep their best players. The last time the Pirates finished first was between 1990 and 1992. Then, they couldnt afford to keep Bonds, Bonilla, Drabeck, etc.

joestalin · August 14, 2009 5:40AM

Angels, Dbacks, Marlins...these are big market teams? Phillies are as cheap as anyone and they even won one.

WinPitcher · August 14, 2009 5:41AM

They can afford it, they choose not too.

Steve

strangecreature · August 14, 2009 5:51AM

<< Angels, Dbacks, Marlins...these are big market teams? Phillies are as cheap as anyone and they even won one. >>

Compared to the yankees and Red sox, how many times have the Angels and Marlins been to the playoffs? After the Marlins won their last championship, they had to let go of their top players. Every now and then the small market team with low salaries will win, but its not the norm.

JackWESQ · August 14, 2009 11:31AM

A 17-2 pounding at the hands of the Cubs. Wow. Charlie Morton gave up 10 runs in 1 inning of work and threw 49 pitches. At least his reliever, Chris Bootcheck, only gave up 7 runs in 2.1 innings of work.

13 more losses to go.

/s/ JackWESQ

joestalin · August 14, 2009 11:32AM

<< A 17-2 pounding at the hands of the Cubs. Wow. Charlie Morton gave up 10 runs in 1 inning of work and threw 49 pitches. At least his reliever, Chris Bootcheck, only gave up 7 runs in 2.1 innings of work.

13 more losses to go.

/s/ JackWESQ >>

Bootcheck will be the opening day starter next year for the Pirates.

BassPro77 · August 14, 2009 1:25PM

what a blow out by the CUBBIES 17-2

Morgoth · August 14, 2009 1:39PM

FU to everyone in this thread go kick some puppies and push down some old ladies while your at it.

BassPro77 · August 14, 2009 2:15PM

<< FU to everyone in this thread go kick some puppies and push down some old ladies while your at it. >>

what? Vick is on this board?

JackWESQ · August 14, 2009 2:17PM

<< FU to everyone in this thread go kick some puppies and push down some old ladies while your at it. >>

Dear Morgoth,

SERIOUSLY, I hope you don't mean that. Really, this is nothing more than mere sports talk ... essentially meaningless. To be sure, I am not the first person to write about the Pirates being in danger of a 17th straight losing season. But if that is how you feel, I respect it as you are more than entitled to your opinion.

Respectfully,

/s/ JackWESQ

strangecreature · August 14, 2009 4:07PM

Its frustrating being a Pirates fan but being a cubs or Indians fan would be worse.

BassPro77 · August 14, 2009 4:32PM

we can only hope, one day the cubbies will go all the way.
by the looks of it, its not going to be this year.

in back to the future the cubs win against miami in 2015. i'll go with that

Morgoth · August 14, 2009 11:18PM

I was kidding as I hoped you would get by my puppies and old ladies comment. Yeah we know they suck, it's not like we can make them get better players we can only hope these trades work out and they get better in 2 years.

We could always just abandon the team and find another team like others may do (certain Phillies fan). But we are in for life or until they are contracted.

There are tons of pirate fans on these boards so the comment about steelers fans vs. pirates fans is pretty silly. We just don't have much to post about.

Our only big hope is today that Gorzelanny doesn't throw a shut out as that will cause some peoples heads to explode in the burgh.

Estil · August 14, 2009 11:48PM

<< yeah but the Pirates ALWAYS suck. You can't tell me that Florida isn't in the same boat as Pitt, they have two championships and the Pirates haven't been in first
place since....the 80's? >>

They three-peated as division champs in 1990-92, and JUST MISSED the World Series in 1991 and 1992. They haven't had a winning season since.

Morgoth · August 15, 2009 3:24AM

Logic doesn't get in the way of rants. The team was a Sid Bream run away from a WS appearance, I think the shame of him scoring from 2nd base on a single has set us back this far. Bonds couldn't throw out one of the slowest men ever from LF WTF? Still haunts us like Neil O'donnel

WinPitcher · August 15, 2009 3:37AM

Growing up I was a big Bucs fan.

I was always a Mets fan but the Pirates always had a special place in my heart.

The years where Matty Alou and Manny Mota would hit 330 and they also had Stargell and of course Clemente.

Steve

strangecreature · August 15, 2009 8:58AM

<< Logic doesn't get in the way of rants. The team was a Sid Bream run away from a WS appearance, I think the shame of him scoring from 2nd base on a single has set us back this far. Bonds couldn't throw out one of the slowest men ever from LF WTF? Still haunts us like Neil O'donnel >>

Yea that 92 francisco cab game was the worst baseball game of my life. The Pirates were ahead the whole game. O" donnel was dreadful but i guess you cant win them all. 6 out of 7 super bowls aint bad.

JackWESQ · September 1, 2009 1:24PM

The Pirates delayed plans by inexplicably winning 7 out of 9 (including 2 out of 3 from Philly), but the course has been straightened by a 6 game losing streak. Only four (4) losses to go.

/s/ JackWESQ

rbdjr1 · September 1, 2009 5:22PM

Yep! It may be quite a while before we see another unlikely hero in P-burgh, like Bill Maszerowski, who slammed a homer to win the World Series against those invincible New York Yankees, "way back when"!

Sheeeeeet does happen! anything is possible!

rd

P.S. I was an upstate NY "little kid" when Maz hit that home run! He "broke my heart" LOL!

God Bless Us All - Nulclear Magenta Production/Bruce Bernstein Film

God Bless Us All! - Little Brucie Weil

(circa: 1953)

God Bless Us All - Little Jimmy Boyd

(RIP Jimmy Boyd Died 3/7/2009)

rbdjr1 · September 1, 2009 5:43PM

They say that pappa Art Rooney's "first love" was baseball!

I wonder if the rest of the Rooney family "feels that love" for baseball too?

And then buys the Pirates? They could just write a check!

rd

The Rooney family controls the Palm Beach Kennel Club, dog track and poker room here at the Palm Beaches, FL. I participate in an annual poker tourney there. Rooneys' put up (2) 50-yard line super bowl tickets each year, plus some cash to the winner! They are into everything, why not the Pittsburgh Pirates someday too?

God Bless Us All - Nulclear Magenta Production/Bruce Bernstein Film

God Bless Us All! - Little Brucie Weil

(circa: 1953)

God Bless Us All - Little Jimmy Boyd

(RIP Jimmy Boyd Died 3/7/2009)

jamesgotpoorman · September 3, 2009 10:55AM

WinPitcher · September 3, 2009 10:24PM

What did the Pirates do with the 75 million they got from MLB before they even sold one ticket?

Did they use the money for salaries at the ML level? Doesn't appear so.

Did they use the money to sign drafted players? maybe some.

The ownership cares not about putting a winning team on the field, until they do it will be the same for 18 straight years.

Steve

JackWESQ · September 7, 2009 6:02AM

And it is done. Only seven (7) more months till opening day 2010 and, potentially, the 18th consecutive losing season.

/s/ JackWESQ

calaban7 · September 7, 2009 6:12AM

No worries mate , the Orioles are right on your heels knocking on the doors. We will be at 12 years and counting , soon.

I've lived and watched the great Orioles years . I talk to younger people and the wonder WTF I'm talking about.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sorry this has happened to you , but it may be us before too long.

Morgoth · September 7, 2009 10:23AM

Steve it was explained in another thread where the money is being spent, they have spent well over 25 mil on this years draft and that is not including any foreign players which they are very involved in trying to sign. Without knowing their overhead and payroll it is hard to say what the owners actually pocket.

I think the big thing is are they finding players that will help in 2011 when Alvarez and Tabata will be playing everyday. That is the big question.

Right now they are finding some pieces but they still haven't developed an ace pitcher yet and that is the big concern. I think their offense will be ok with all the players they have in the minors.

Again it never is an exact science, where was Albert Pujols drafted or projected vs say Alex Gordon? Just because you draft studs and Boras clients doesn't mean you they will ever produce. You have to get lucky IMO like the A's did when they had 3 pitchers all develop at the same time and stay healthy if you don't have the money to spend on free agents.

Look at the Twins, they have a model system but when was the last time they won the whole thing? Is the goal just to be competitive? It appears moneyball and the Twins method just allows you to maybe make a post season appearance every 2 to 3 years. Sadly I think that is all the Pirates can hope to achieve.

coinkat · September 7, 2009 10:30AM

I would have suspected the Wshington Senators would have held that mark- I suppose the 1969 season may have changed that

jamesgotpoorman · September 7, 2009 10:38AM

jamesgotpoorman · September 7, 2009 10:39AM

WELL THAT IS ONE LESS RECORD THAT PHILADELPHIA PHILLIES CAN SAY THEY HAVE

JackWESQ · September 7, 2009 11:31AM

<< Is the goal just to be competitive? >>

NEVER. The goal is singular; to win a World Series title. As a fan, I would EASILY sacrifice 10, 20 or even 30 years of pure misery, if somehow "my" team could guarantee one (1) title. Unfortunately, there is no way to make such a guarantee. That is why I have always said there is no substitute for winning NOW and I roll my eyes when I hear about "mortgaging our future." Honestly, you probably didn't have a future to begin with. And at the start of the 1993 season, apparently, the Pirates didn't have a [foreseeable] future.

/s/ JackWESQ

Morgoth · September 7, 2009 1:05PM

I think your confusing the MLB with the NFL, there are no quick fixes or long sustained winning in MLB without deep pockets.

The strategy that seems to be adopted by most small market teams is to build up through the minors, hopefully have a season where 2 or 3 players have career years and add 1 or 2 players through trades to make a playoff push. As according to Billy Beane the playoffs are a crapshoot so the strategy of getting into the field every 3 years is sound as you never know what could happen.

The A's, Twins did this througout the 2000s and they never won but had shots. The Marlins are the only team I can think of that really sold out to win in one year. That first WS win was largely to get a new stadium and keep the team there. The owners never had any intentions of keeping that team together. However if it wasn't for a young pitcher even that team of FA's would have failed. Their second WS win was due to a solid core of young players that again could not be kept together through free agency.

The notion of a team going for it and making bad trades is faulty. Look at the Braves now and their trade for Teixera. Yeah maybe they compete more that one year but they could of had 2 or 3 more chances with the players they gave up especially after losing him in FA.

I think getting to the post season consistently will get you more championships then giving up your future for 1 shot. Teams that can afford to make up shortages in their farm system through FA don't have to worry about this. They just have to sign the right players which is another challenge.

The sad thing is EVERY team that uses the moneyball type strategy goes through the rebuild process every few years. The Pirates never fully comitted to that strategy and would trade or sign players in FA past their prime or hurt and therefore kept setting back the team years. Now that they are fully committed I think they will be much improved in 2011.

gemint · September 8, 2009 9:03AM

In the Pirates' case, I think it's a combination of having cheap, incompetent owners and having to play in a system that is designed to favor the big market teams. Revenue sharing can help the small market teams to some extent but it doesn't put them nearly on equal footing with the big market teams. My guess is the Nuttings have a certain $ figure that's the max they'll spend. They ensure themselves a nice profit from their club but leave it to the GM to decide how to spend the remainder. Clearly wasting $10M on a Matt Morris type signing is much worse than investing $10M in signing lower round draft picks or players from International leagues. However, it doesn't change the fact that they have a very low ceiling to spend up to. The question will be if the Nuttings will open the purse strings if the Pirates get close to a title some year. I'm not sure we'll ever get to find out as I'm not sold that the Pirates have a competent scouting department. The fact they got very little real value from the Jason Bay trade shows me they still don't have a clue at evaluating talent. They have gotten some good players from the Nady deal but even Littlefield had a few successes when he was GM.

jamesgotpoorman · September 9, 2009 5:42AM

Mickey71 · September 9, 2009 6:34AM

It's sad. Some teams with very rich history suck. Pirates, Reds, Orioles, Royals. These teams used to be competetive year after year.

Morgoth · September 9, 2009 10:02AM

There was a recent sports illustrated article about how payroll is still the most significant issue in wins and losses. There are 3 other teams getting ready to hit the 10 year mark for consecutive losing seasons. At no other point in MLB history has so many teams had such long losing streaks. The SI article points out that with teams valuing prospects so much higher now than before its getting harder for teams like the Pirates, Brewers, Twins and A's to find those great deals that allowed them to get multiple MLB players for one vet.

On the issue of Huntington, he is no Littlefield, he has been very consistent in how he is building the team.

Has he made bad trades or deals. Yes, the Bay trade was a huge flop. The McClouth trade is looking iffy right now with Morton pitching awful and Gorkys being marginal. Resigning Maholm and Doumit looks bad right now as well. Also the trade of Grabow and Gorzellany for Kevin Hart has been a bust.

The Nady trade is going to be amazing if Tabata plays as well as he has in the minors so far. He is one year away. Getting Tabata and Ohlendorf for Nady was a steal.

Tony Sanchez has been amazing in the minors so if people think the pirates went cheap, I think he will prove them wrong but time will tell.

lanemyer85 · September 11, 2009 6:34AM

this is the Pirates' main problem

Their last 10 #1 Draft Picks

1999 Bobby Bradley, rhp Out of baseball
2000 Sean Burnett, lhp Pirates
2001 John Van Benschoten, rhp Pirates
2002 Bryan Bullington, rhp Indians
2003 Paul Maholm, lhp Pirates
2004 Neil Walker, c Pirates
2005 Andrew McCutchen, of Pirates
2006 Brad Lincoln, rhp Pirates
2007 Daniel Moskos, lhp
2008 Pedro Alvarez, 3b Pirates

McCutchen looks good, Lincoln and Moskos are marginal and come with injury risks, and Alvarez looks to be a blue chipper. The new front office looks to be finally getting the club on track however. Prior to drafting Alvarez all their previous #1 picks(all high picks at that) were about signability and local kid (Neil Walker) then you couple that with not getting much from their later round picks aside from McClouth & Doumit (who is a below average defensive catcher and probably should be playing 1B and likely will when Sanchez makes it to the bigs..if not traded). I'm assuming the Sanchez pick is in conjunction with their supposed interest in signing 16 yr old Dominican SS uber prospect M.Sano who should be getting a $3M signing bonus. Hasn't signed yet but he's supposedly interested in the Pirates. The Bay trade looks bad with the way Andy LaRoche has performed but once TB pulled their offer they didn't have many other choices...and you saw how the FA market was this past off-season for OFers...Dunn, Abreu etc had to take bargain basement contracts so it's not like Bay's market would have been much better. Nady/D.Marte deal looks to be a big time win.

Morgoth · September 11, 2009 6:45AM

Lincoln has been very good in AA but so so in AAA. He is still a prospect. Moskos not so much, bad, bad, bad draft.

You forgot the entire 1998 draft where not one pick in the first 16 rounds played one inning for the Pirates.

Sano most likely will sign with the Bucs by all accounts so that will really boost the draft they had this year. Sanchez has been killing it in the minors so that pick doesn't look too bad.

Doumit allegedly was so unhappy with all the trades he almost went into "operation shutdown" and had to be benched a week ago. I have to think we are regretting signing him already.

You forgot Tabata who had a good year at the plate but not much power, he is still really young and it could still develop. Also I like what I have seen out of Daniel McCutchen and he pitched will at Indy this year, he was also in the Nady deal.

One thing about A.McCutchen is how much power will he develop. I wasn't too high on him early on but he has started to hit some HRs and if he can get up to the 20-25 level he will be a real find.

JackWESQ · September 16, 2009 11:03AM

Were the Pirates reading this thread? After winning 7 out of 9 games in mid/late August, they have lost 17 of their last 19 games. If the Pirates lose 11 of their final 18 games (quite possible, if not probable), they'll end the season with 100 losses. But at least they can still look down at the Washington Nationals.

/s/ JackWESQ

P.S. The Pirates are a respectable 36-34 at home. But, on the road ...

bman90278 · September 16, 2009 9:03PM

I heard a very interesting fact from Vin Scully yesterday while watching the Dodgers beat the Pirates...He said the Pirates have one of the best road attendance average in MLB.

brian

Morgoth · September 17, 2009 1:39AM

Here's hoping the Nats go on a big win streak.

It's funny you look at the two teams and the Nats have more recognized name players, namely Zimmerman and Dunn but it's all about pitching and even the Pirates have better starters than the Naties. When Strasburg arrives it will change but they need 2 more starters just like the Pirates do.

ziggy29 · September 17, 2009 3:46AM

<< Here's hoping the Nats go on a big win streak. >>

Yeah, a Nats fan is probably afraid that the next #1 pick will also be a Scott Boras client...

Morgoth · September 17, 2009 4:05AM

No doubt they don't want 2 in a row.

I don't know about spending tons on a HS player like Bryce Harper. He isn't a pitcher so that's better but it is a huge risk considering how little money a Pittsburgh or KC has to spend.

If MLB doesn't start doing something it will turn the league even more unbalanced. Payroll amount is starting to have more affect on wins and losses than before. Moneyball doesn't work anymore as the teams with money also are valuing their prospects more than ever. Basically the only shot a team like KC has of getting a superstar is in the draft but when a Boras basically makes it such a huge boom or bust type it becomes really bad.

Teams already draft based on signablilty it will get worse as time goes on. Think about KC and Alex Gordon, he doesn't pan out (at least not yet) now they have to hope the next one does. Sets the team back years.

ziggy29 · September 17, 2009 4:24AM

<< If MLB doesn't start doing something it will turn the league even more unbalanced. Payroll amount is starting to have more affect on wins and losses than before. Moneyball doesn't work anymore as the teams with money also are valuing their prospects more than ever. Basically the only shot a team like KC has of getting a superstar is in the draft but when a Boras basically makes it such a huge boom or bust type it becomes really bad. >>

And the NFL may have no salary cap next year. I'd hate to be a smaller market team in the NFL if that's the case, for their chances to build a consistent winner just came way down.

Morgoth · September 17, 2009 5:31AM

The team owners don't want a cap in the NFL. The small market teams would then be able to spend as little as they wanted. Big market teams could sign as many FAs as possible. If they go into the season uncapped look for some teams to shed payroll and never add it back unless a cap goes into play. The NFLPA thinks the cap is a big stick they can use but in reality the owners don't want it. FANS want a cap as it means the league is very competitive.

I think if the next deal in the NFL is cap free say goodbye to competitive balannce.

ziggy29 · September 17, 2009 5:50AM

<< I think if the next deal in the NFL is cap free say goodbye to competitive balannce. >>

That's the thing. I don't care whether the players get the money or the owners get the money. I just don't want to see MLB's broken economics infect the NFL.

Pittsburgh Pirates Run To A Record 17 Consecutive Losing Seasons

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