I can't believe PCGS didn't call this a counterfeit S VDB.
commoncents05
Posts: 10,090 ✭✭✭
Many Quality coins for sale at http://www.CommonCentsRareCoins.com
0
commoncents05
Posts: 10,090 ✭✭✭
Comments
Perhapes they are not that reputable to begin with ?
I don't know. Seems like a dumb move to me .
I do see the raw coin market being set to take a hard fall though, due to the flood of
high quality fakes coming on to the market as of late.
Last Monday I had the chance to examine close a group of well struck key date fakes that would fool
98% of the collectors out there. This guy had '09 S vdbs, Flying eagles, '16 ds , '21 Walkers, etc.
Die struck, not cast, in various circulated grades. One of the '16 D winged Libertys even had some
golden brown rim toning . Damn good fakes . It almost made me sick . Even under magnification, unless you are an expert on all the
possible obverse/reverse dies and their characteristics, there is no way most people would have been able to tell them apart from
genuine. It's getting REAL scary out there !
Lewis
Franklin-Lover's Forum
<< <i>Why would that company tarnish their reputation by selling that ? >>
Maybe it's a consigned coin? Maybe you should send the seller a PM and ask him?
DPOTD-3
'Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery'
CU #3245 B.N.A. #428
Don
<< <i>No decision means "it's fake but we returned it" >>
It means "We don't want to get sued for slandering someone's coin."
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>No decision means "it's fake but we returned it" >>
It means "We don't want to get sued for slandering someone's coin." >>
No, it does not. If PCGS thiinks the coin is fake, they will not refund the grading fee with a no decision. They will keep the fee and bb it as something like questionable authenticity. I would be surprised if that coin and that tag actually belong together.
merse
More than likely this is a "mechanical error" on the label and it was coded "86" (No Opinion) and it should have been coded "90" (Questionable Authenticity). See here.
Apparently a few people like it as it is already over $300.
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
Potential 1909-S VDB Filler Lincoln Cent
Description:
There are so many counterfeit and altered key date 1909-S VDB Lincoln cents out there I don't blame any of the Services for being a bit gun shy when it comes to grading and holdering these. Some claim there are about as many fakes as there are genuine coins available at any given time. With that said, this Lincoln came from a pretty decent collector source though and looks legit. It is not a cheap Chinese knock-off but, worse case is a contemporary counterfeit, best case, is genuine but PCGS could not confirm as such. Either way it is an excellent album place filler for your DANSCO Lincoln set of cents.
NOT Certified but the body bag is included.
As shown.
<< <i>How do we know it's the same coin that PCGS examined? >>
It's probably a different coin in the bag.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
K S
<< <i>starting diagnostic for svdb should ALWAYS be the vdb, not the m/m
K S >>
Good point. Of course an S could have been added to a Philly VDB cent.
Lance.
Has the member here been pmed about this coin?
If he is a member, he should have no problem finding this thread and commenting.
Guess being a board member doesn't mean squat!
Greed is an awful thing.
Really? How many of these have the TPG's seen and slabbed? I think they know what they are looking for when it comes to SVDB's...
The description is shady as hell if you ask me.
It is a little misleading, but title and description says it is badybagged. The seller also has good pictures that show the mintmark clearly.
I mean, do they not have the expertise to tell definitively one way or the other?
It is a little misleading, but title and description says it is bodybagged. The seller also has good pictures that show the mintmark clearly.>>
I wonder what the bidders that are driving the price to over $300 thought about the title and description.
He' says it's on consignment and that he can't close auction.
Personally I believe it can be done.
Secondly I told him his rep is taking another hit on the boards
Consignment or not, PULL the auction
Ray
<< <i>Did the owner of the coin ask them to make it seem like PGCS just didnt want to stick their neck out on slabbing this coin?
This sale and everything else Ive read here would make me think twice from buying from the seller. Board member or not. >>
He's online he keeps answering my Ebay messages, Just don't think he really cares.
I could be wrong but it doesn't look that way.
If a seller is selling a coin on consignment isn't it a fiduciary responsibility for them to be up front with the consignor that a coin is counterfeit and as a reputable seller they will only accept the consignment and list the coin as such?
In this case though... maybe it has to do with ebay. If the coin was listed as a "counterfeit"; wouldn't ebay pull the listing?
<< <i>The bigger disappointment than Pat's "greed" is PCGS's dancing around the truth and not stating unequivocally that it IS a counterfeit.
I mean, do they not have the expertise to tell definitively one way or the other?
Any idea of what PCGS' obligation is to the Secret Service when they outright declare a coin to be a counterfeit? Hence, 'questionable authenticity' and you get your coin back. Could you imagine the outrage if PCGS said unequivocally that your coin is a counterfeit, and then surrendered it to the SS?
Lincoln set Colorless Set
Good point, and I didnt see that, but if you saw it, its there.
<<If my memory is right, Braddick is a cop.>>
Good career, and if so, I thank him for his service. Id bet if he is a cop, he is a pretty stand up guy.
So, maybe I would buy from this seller. 14 day returns, which is alot on ebay, a cop, I know Im not getting swindled, and a board member... Ok, maybe Id buy from him in the future, just not this coin.
Smitty presented to me a valid argument via eBay messages and it was one I took seriously.
So by continually stating that it's counterfeit is clouding the issue. It's an altered coin, not a fake coin.
Genuine 1909 VDB, added mintmark, altered surfaces
-or-
Counterfeit 1909 S-VDB
Guess they don't want to make the call...
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
<< <i>The auction has been pulled and the coin will ship back to the consigner with a copy of this thread sent with it as a reason why.
Smitty presented to me a valid argument via eBay messages and it was one I took seriously. >>
Thank you, that was the right thing to do.
Sean Reynolds
"Keep in mind that most of what passes as numismatic information is no more than tested opinion at best, and marketing blather at worst. However, I try to choose my words carefully, since I know that you guys are always watching." - Joe O'Connor
Sorta like THIS one (in a fake PCGS slab):
<< <i>Isn't the term "counterfeit" being incorrectly used here? The coin may actually be a mint released coin, it likely has been altered to add an S.
So by continually stating that it's counterfeit is clouding the issue. It's an altered coin, not a fake coin. >>
You are correct and I'm guilty... doesn't change my mind though on how it should have been handled and it's nice to see the seller did the right thing.
<< <i><<I read the auction title and description and it led me to believe that it is a fake coin.
It is a little misleading, but title and description says it is bodybagged. The seller also has good pictures that show the mintmark clearly.>>
I wonder what the bidders that are driving the price to over $300 thought about the title and description. >>
They were not thinking.
<< <i>The bigger disappointment than Pat's "greed" is PCGS's dancing around the truth and not stating unequivocally that it IS a counterfeit.
I mean, do they not have the expertise to tell definitively one way or the other?
.......they could clear all this up by.....................letting CAC have a look!
<< <i>
<< <i>starting diagnostic for svdb should ALWAYS be the vdb, not the m/m
K S >>
Good point. Of course an S could have been added to a Philly VDB cent.
Lance. >>
On the S-Mint 1909 Lincoln cent, the "B" in V.D.B. has a slanted crossbar. On the P-Mint issue, the crossbar is straight, so this is not an added mintmark.
IMHO, this is a cheap cast copy. The lettering and numerals are too rounded and look incorrect. There are other signs, but the whole fabric of the coin looks wrong. Of course the biggest clue is the cartoon-like mintmark. When I first saw it, I started laughing.
<< <i> I wonder what the bidders that are driving the price to over $300 thought about the title and description. >>
I suppose even if a coin is a known (or suspect) counterfeit/altered coin, there will always be somebody out there willing to bid on it as a hole filler *if* he/she cannot afford the real thing. Probably not such a smart buy in terms of resaleability, but I suppose anything's better than one of these ridiculous-looking replicas:
Yuck!