1881 PCGS Rattler Proof Set * Updated Pics *
Darkwaverave
Posts: 111 ✭✭
Here is an old 1881 proof set that is in old rattlers housed in an old PCGS box. The set has not been cherry picked and has been kept together for many years by a local coin club member before they were certified together (serial numbers are all within 12 digits). One other member of this forum viewed this set about 6 months ago at a local coin show. Most of the coins are definite upgrades, and I intend on selling the set and my questions are:
Is it worth more as a complete 1881 proof set in rattlers (I have not seen any other 1800's proof sets in rattlers)?
Should I split up the rattlers and sell as is with some being PQ?
Should I send the majority to the coin shop and have them submit to PCGS to try for upgrades before selling them?
I cannot take pictures of proof coins, as they all come out foggy with my camera in the mirror backgrounds. My pictures stink. Here are the grades for the coins and my opinions:
1 Cent PR65 RB
3 Cent PR64
5 Cent PR63
10 Cent PR63 Would probably skip 2 grades to PR65
25 Cent PR63 Would upgrade
50 Cent PR62 Would upgrade
1 Dollar PR63 Would upgrade
* Update * I took pictures of all the coins, many of the rattlers have lite hairline scratches and the pictures make it look like they are on the coin (though there are some lite hairlines on some coins). The pictures did not turn out very well and I could not get the mirrors to show up. They are large files.
Is it worth more as a complete 1881 proof set in rattlers (I have not seen any other 1800's proof sets in rattlers)?
Should I split up the rattlers and sell as is with some being PQ?
Should I send the majority to the coin shop and have them submit to PCGS to try for upgrades before selling them?
I cannot take pictures of proof coins, as they all come out foggy with my camera in the mirror backgrounds. My pictures stink. Here are the grades for the coins and my opinions:
1 Cent PR65 RB
3 Cent PR64
5 Cent PR63
10 Cent PR63 Would probably skip 2 grades to PR65
25 Cent PR63 Would upgrade
50 Cent PR62 Would upgrade
1 Dollar PR63 Would upgrade
* Update * I took pictures of all the coins, many of the rattlers have lite hairline scratches and the pictures make it look like they are on the coin (though there are some lite hairlines on some coins). The pictures did not turn out very well and I could not get the mirrors to show up. They are large files.
0
Comments
-Paul
If the dollar really has the hazy areas on it that show up in the photo, don't count on an upgrade from MS-63. If the dime is white, like the dollar, don't figure on an MS-65. White, dipped silver Proofs are not huge favorites with advanced collectors and won't upgrade to MS-65 or better. Originality is very important with these sets.
An original set with all the silver with the same original look will bring big (huge) bucks. Dipped sets are worth a good deal less.
As to the old PCGS holder mystique, I can't speak to that.
As to whether or not you should break the set, I'd have to see the whole set.
"Because I can"
myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
"Because I can"
myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
<< <i>call Legend with your price in mind. My guess is they might be interested in something cool and "fresh" like that. >>
What he said.
The rattlers are a good selling point, to a knowledgeable buyer (dealer or collector) who will buy the set for the grades the coins really are....not what the holders say. Leave them be. The chances of getting no grades after all these years could frustrate you if you take that route. You can get nearly full value for the set w/o playing with them yourself. 95% of the buyers will tell you otherwise....the other 5% will be the real buyers. Seems like there are a couple of them here already.
I owned a lot of old holder coins in the later 1990's from purchases in the 1980's. Yet somehow I was drawn to trying to upgrade them. If I could do it all over I would have left them all alone. The freshness factor alone will help you get the same price or more. And down the road, the number of sets of 19th century type still in rattlers will be very small indeed. Most have succumbed to the upgrade dollar chase. And now with the market desiring conservatively graded coins in old holders....well that's what you have. Money is tight today, but a set like that would still catch lots of interest, moreso than a maxed out set in overgraded holders.
roadrunner
roadrunner
out of my range now, but I would have bought that set in a heart beat if money was not tight...
You really have a little gold mine and a rare one...I have specialized in the OGH for years...your set is one of a kind...
"Because I can"
myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
But I really don't see how anyone who is putting together a proof set from 1881 would care about what kind of plastic it is in. You guys want him to keep them together and sell them as a set when you don't even have a clue as to what the other coins even look like. Maybe I'm missing something, I thought it was about the coins......
<< <i>The trick to selling it as a set is to find the right buyer. Maybe he just managed to do that.
But I really don't see how anyone who is putting together a proof set from 1881 would care about what kind of plastic it is in. You guys want him to keep them together and sell them as a set when you don't even have a clue as to what the other coins even look like. Maybe I'm missing something, I thought it was about the coins...... >>
Not always. I'm doing an all rattler 1909 cent set .... don't even care what the coins look like if they're in a rattler. lol
<< <i>But I really don't see how anyone who is putting together a proof set from 1881 would care about what kind of plastic it is in. You guys want him to keep them together and sell them as a set when you don't even have a clue as to what the other coins even look like. Maybe I'm missing something, I thought it was about the coins...... >>
Not everyone comprehends the term RARE.....
"Because I can"
myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
they are in a numbered order (not in the case-but youll see it)
that I believe means the coins all came from the same submission
translation=very nice and extremly rare!
disclaimer- I am not a financial backer of Legend
CopperW
<< <i>CAC them, and leave them in old holders
disclaimer- I am not a financial backer of Legend
I agree, CAC them (I never thougth I would say that).
President, Racine Numismatic Society 2013-2014; Variety Resource Dimes; See 6/8/12 CDN for my article on Winged Liberty Dimes; Ebay
<< <i>CAC them, and leave them in old holders >>
A gold bean or two is as good as (or better than) an upgrade in new holders, while preserving the originality intact. I would NOT remove them from the rattlers.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
<< <i>I have posted pics of all the coins now. The pics are not very good and don't show the mirrors, and some of the lite hairlines seen are on the holder not the coin. It looks like a nice matched set. >>
Yup. The Dime looks cameo too. Nice set.
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"Because I can"
myurl The Franklin All Old Green Holder Set
I'd try to sell it as a set. It won't bring the huge premiums that original sets bring. By original set I mean a Proof set that has been together since 1881 that has never been dipped and has attractive to great toning. That's a lot to ask, but that's the reason why such sets bring FAR more money than an assembled set such as this one.
too bad they have signs of an old cleaning/dipping that has left hairlines.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
Looks like the dime has a shot at upgrading but any buyer can see that so no need to actually have it done.
I had an original 1907 proof set that was certified with consecutive serial numbers. It had been stored in a cardboard holder which I had and which contributed to matching toning on all the coins. It was sold as a set and remains intact.
<< <i>It is a nice, interesting set, but I don't see any "for sure" up grades. I would not waste money on CAC. I don't think they will sticker most of them because CAC is only supposed to sticker coins that are high end for the grade.
I'd try to sell it as a set. It won't bring the huge premiums that original sets bring. By original set I mean a Proof set that has been together since 1881 that has never been dipped and has attractive to great toning. That's a lot to ask, but that's the reason why such sets bring FAR more money than an assembled set such as this one. >>
I disagree. The fees associated with CAC are nominal compared to the value/price of this set. The downside is minimal, whereas if several of the coins get beaned it could help resale considerably (as much as I disagree with the concept of CAC, there's no doubting their effect in the market).
Also, your statement "CAC is only supposed to sticker coins that are high end for the grade" is incorrect. A CAC bean means that the coin has met the standards for the grade (interpret that however you choose). I have seen people using terms like "solid for the grade", "premium for the grade", and "high end for the grade", all of which have subtle (and not so subtle) differences in meaning.
Also, keep in mind that there a whole bunch of people here trying to gauge upgrade and/or CAC potential based on a bunch of online pictures without seeing the coins in hand. If they were mine, I would CAC them before trying to sell. I would take their word over the eyeballs here on the forum...
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
I don't see any reason why the silver coins couldn't get a bump in grade. It comes down to hairlines, films, stains and haze...all which are easy to detect on brilliant/dipped coins. One would expect some upgrades on a random group of 19th type coins like this. It would not be unusual to see half or more of the silver coins upgrade. And very unusual imo for none of them to upgrade. Rattlers that don't upgrade seem to be more related to old films and strange toning that are perceived differently today. I wouldn't bet on any coin upgrading 2 points though. The standards for hairlines haven't changed that much. Such a coin would have had to been a 63+ coin when first slabbed to have a shot at 65 today. The Morgan photo comes out as a cartoon graphic rather than a photo on my computer so I can't see what that coin is about.
Standards have changed a lot, especially with how many hairlines are acceptable on a proof coin. I remember back to 1988-1989 when a single and obvious hairline across the portrait of a Morgan or Barber coin was essentially automatic grounds for rejection from 65 grade. Today, such a hairline would probably only be automatic rejection from a 67 grade....and I've even seem some holdered as 67 regardless.
While many experienced collectors would prefer orig attractive toning on their coins it doesn't mean that there isn't a huge following for dazzling/brilliant coins even if dipped. Just look at the craze for CAMs and DCAMs that come from......orig coins that were dipped. The TPG's tend to give brilliant coins higher grades than toned ones with just average/decent eye appeal. In a nutshell, there is nothing wrong with brilliant proofs and the demand is strong. The majority of buyers these days will shun a more deeply toned orig set (unless they are monster rainbows) in favor of a brilliant one.
roadrunner
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
I like the fact that my proof sets now have consecutive slab numbers. For me, it shows that the proof set was, at one time, together as a unit. I think that your older set and the consecutive slab numbers add value to your set.
As for the rattler slabs - I like the fact that they demonstrate the coin has been safe from molestation the past 20 or so years. That adds value, IMHO.
I also intend to submit my sets to CAC at some point, and would recommend the same for your beautiful set.
One man's opinion......
all of them and the non-beaners are therefore "dogs". Furthermore, unless you get gold beans, I doubt you've really increased
the value of the coins that much. People seem to think there will be lots of interest from neophytes for sets such as these, and
hence the value of stickers. I'm not so sure.
<< <i>John Albanese of CAC will be at the ANA but they will not be stickering coins there. >>
If he looked at them, even without stickering there, the OP would likely get a good idea from JA if it was worth it to submit though, right?
Sounds like a reasonable thing to do.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
If he does like them, I'd walk to the Legend table and give them first shot. They can pay you top dollar and still mark it up nasty.
Disclaimer: I have nothing to do with Legend and likely can't afford LS's pocket change.
move slowly my friend. you have the bait now just figure out how to
maximize your return.
and the half and quarter, to me, looked properly graded.