<< <i>Not quite right, coinjunkie. There are many coins that CAN be decisively called AT or NT, and the standard remains absolute with respect to those coins. The issue is that there are some coins that cannot be decisively identified as either AT or NT. The question is what standard should be applied to those coins. Perhaps they look plausible, or even "market acceptable," but their origin is still in doubt for various reasons. If what TDN said above is true, then previously there was a time when those coins might have been admitted to the club, while apparently now they are being kept out to be on the safe side.
Keeping them out is the right thing to do if there has been an increase in the number of coins in that category, produced by profiteers trying to game the system by counterfeiting nature's work and defrauding the collecting community. >>
Thanks for expressing what I was trying to say. Perhaps "any given coin" was too ambiguous. If we are to believe the recent posters, these "questionable" toners are a significant percentage of the overall population.
<< <i><<This may prove to be a somewhat challenging thread, especially without photographs but we CAN DO THIS! CIVILLY.>>
TTIWWOP's.
I think some of it is directly caused by Cac, and collector awareness. >>
I don't think that CAC gives a chit about toning, since they aren't all about eye appeal. >>
I disagree with this. True, CAC is not all about eye appeal, but they are all about being in agreement with the assigned grade. If they feel a coin doesn't look right as far as the toning is concerned regardless of the assigned grade, I don't think they will give it their blessing with a green bean sticker.
they are running scared, and afraid to slab what could later sting them. Couple that with the fact that they get paid whether they slab it or not, and it comes up to nothing more than a cash grab. >>
Genuine holders certainly are one of the key factors..as are coin doctors. I can see AT coins in PCGS holder right now on Ebay...in bulk. What's funny as I can't say the same about NGC even though many here would have you believe NGC will grade anything with color.
I see sellers on Ebay with most of the AT'd inventory currently in PCGS holders....I won't name names but that doesn't make it any less true
I think the only thing folks with raw toned coins can do right now is save their money and just keep them in albums and flips
If you have questions or concerns, any doubt regarding this issue - think before you type but make your points (observations) and ask your questions here, in a non-confrontational manner.
<< <i>...ask your questions here, in a non-confrontational manner. >>
I don't know... the phrasing and emphasis WITH CAPS in this question strikes me as confrontational:
"Exactly WHAT has transpired within the Numismatic Industry (in particular, within the top 2 tpgs) that NOW has coins that exhibit the VERY SAME type toning that was so pervasive amongst many top, All Time Greatest Registry Sets, being Body Bagged for questionable color?"
HRH stated on this very chatroom that PCGS's prior policy was "if we're not 100% sure it's AT, then we'll slab it". As part of their solutions to the coin doctoring problem, PCGS and NGC recently stated that their policy is now "if we're not 100% sure it's NT, we won't slab it".
You need look no further than those creating all those toners for the reason for their change. >>
It's a simple question. And since limited to words on a monitor as opposed to speaking, the words (in CAPS) are as such to stress emphasis as well as diction.
Don't try to read more into this. It's quite obviously a straightforward question.
HRH stated on this very chatroom that PCGS's prior policy was "if we're not 100% sure it's AT, then we'll slab it". As part of their solutions to the coin doctoring problem, PCGS and NGC recently stated that their policy is now "if we're not 100% sure it's NT, we won't slab it". >>
Taken at face value, this is proof positive that there has been a change - which is going to present problems on coins submitted in the past that graded quite high.
<< <i>Don't try to read more into this. It's quite obviously a straightforward question. >>
I'm not trying to read anything into it. I just told you what I thought about it after reading it. You might want to consider that maybe I'm not the only one who got that impression.
"Boom - re-read your original post. You emphatically state that the exact same toning used to grade and now it bags. You even shout it in CAPS. That is argumentative in the extreme, and then you request civillity in responses?"
So I'm not the only one. Maybe (just possibly?) your writing is not as claer as you think it is?
This is an interesting thread and FWIW I'll throw my two cents in. Some of this has been eloquently stated in some of the previous posts, so forgive me for repeating what has already been said. Firstly, doctoring in general which includes the specific intent of imitating beautifully toned coins has been going on for a long time... possibly longer than most of the readers on this forum have been alive. The coins I speak of are the pieces done really well, not the junk that appears on Ebay or similar venues. There is no doubt that due to the popularity of toned pieces and the premium attached to these coins, it has also always been the financial gain which is the prime motivator. This may be more apparent in today's market, but I remember back in the 70's, and I'm sure there are guys who've been around a lot longer than me who will tell you it goes back a lot further than that. I specifically remember being told such things as "that coin has 1K worth of color on it, so that's why it's worth a premium over sheet" back when I first became interested in gem uncirculated coins over 30 years ago, well before the TPG's were established. An issue with toned coins is that great variety the colors and patterns can take, certainly a great variable for the TPG's when it is not a commonly seen pattern and probably motivation for not slabbing because of that, even if it is original. It's said that the only way to be really certain is to have seen thousands and thousands of coins and be savvy enough to recognize how specific metals tone and the patina that developes naturally. That is all well and good, but what do you do when world class graders disagree on a particular coin? Who is right then? This is not meant in any way to put a chink in anyones armor, but I've spoken to dealers who not only disagree with the original color on a coin slabbed by the major TPG's, but also by CAC as well. Like I say, this is not an attack on anyone, but if you have world class graders who STILL can disagree on the originality of color on a coin, where does that leave the rest of us who do not make a living in numismatics, but only enjoy it as a hobby? Who is right? I'll give you a specific example so you don't think I'm speaking in generalities and blowing smoke. Recently I bought a 1875 Seated Quarter in proof (which is unusual for me as I generally only do the business strikes). I mentioned that coin in this forum a few weeks ago and the trouble I went through to obtain it. I personally viewed the coin three separate times in the lot viewing, and asked several people in the business about the coin. They all liked it, thought the color was original. Respected, knowledgeable people. Subsequently, have heard from someone who is very knowledgeable, has lots of experience and is well respected in the numismatic community. He thinks it's accelerated toning. I respect his opinion because he's far more knowledgeable than I, HOWEVER, the coin is also CAC'd. So who do you believe ladies and gentlemen? Either it is or it isn't... or are we entering a time when the work done is SO good even the very best can't come to an agreement?
<< <i> or are we entering a time when the work done is SO good even the very best can't come to an agreement? >>
Or possibly we are entering a time where so much information is available that we are coming to realize that a lot of presumed expertise is really just "informed opinion"?
Well, what i would say has already been said by many other previous posters.
i must admit i do not find RedTiger's #2 too farfetched.
<< <i>2) A big time coin doc retires, confesses to getting 10,000 attractive toners slabbed a year, every year for the past five years. The doc does a show and tell, so that graders now know to look for and to reject those coins, all off the record. Again, grading companies would never want this info out there. A smaller example of this would be company insiders showing the graders coins that they personally toned very quickly using dubious methods, but that look great. Now that they have been show such coins, the graders now reject them. >>
This seems to be supported by the tightening of the TPGs on the toning at the same time!
Doogy's throwing the baby out with the bathwater also rings true in my mind. The TPGs are not even grading the PCI-toned Silver Eagles and are not grading the classic "bag" toned Morgans - at least that is my current experience.
i do not think CAC has had that much of an impact. For one, the coins that don't make it at CAC are not specially marked in a public way so how can embarrassment take place? Second, even if CAC were to have some giant impact it would likely be years down the road since many, many coins yet remain out there that have not been tried at CAC yet. Just like there are plenty of high-end raw coins out there that have never been tried at any TPG company.
i don't like AT coins in slabs, either. But MANOFCOINS is right: the TPGs have gone too far to the right as of the past few months.
A lie told often enough becomes the truth. ~Vladimir Lenin
jhdfla, in the end we must make our own purchasing decisions based on our own knowledge. The issue is not what PCGS decides to do, but what we decide to do; as we are the ultimate consumers or end-users in the collectibles market. We must evaluate all the choices in the marketplace. In so doing, we can incorporate third party opinions, such as slabs, slab grades, CAC stickers, expert opinions, trusted dealers, catalog descriptions, and our own research.
If you collect early coinage, and really know your stuff, you'll quickly find that almost all the coins have been messed with in various ways during their lifetimes. You still have to choose from what is available though, and so you try to decide what your prioties are and what choices to make. Otherwise, you have to give up and go try something else.
I know that many white coins are unnatural. In the case of Morgans, many are also natural, based on the unique conditions of their storage. But the demand for blast white Morgans has motivated a lot of dipping and "conservation." Ditto in proof gold, where "conservation" has been further rewarded in recent years by many upgrades. I call this "dehistoricization" and/or "aritifical whitening."
Similarly, I know that many toned coins have been accelerated or enhanced. Again in the case of Morgans, many are also natural, based on the unique conditions of their storage. The sealed Mint bags that sat for many decades in utterly undisturbed storage yielded both spectacular rainbow coins and blast white coins, based on their placement within the bag. Many Morgan dates were not well represented in the Treasury hoards, but found their way into other hoards (Redfield, Binion, Continental Illinois, etc) or in some rare instances into great collections (Eliasberg, Norweb, etc), where they also acquired natural patination over time.
In collecting Morgans (or any other series), I am left to choose between naturally white, artificially white, naturally toned and artificially toned coins. For many reasons, I chose to collect naturally and attractively toned Morgans. Of course that means trying to learn to distinguish NT from AT to the best of my ability. While it is not possible to be 100% certain 100% of the time, with the assistance of PCGS, CAC, and other experts, I am comfortable with my choices. Anyone who is not comfortable with toning should collect white coins. There are certainly plenty of blast white coins to be had. Had I chosen to collect blast white Morgans instead, I'm sure I would have plenty of dipped, artificially whitened coins in my collection, as well as naturally white coins. And I wouldn't have paid nearly as much for the set - but it also wouldn't be as utterly fascinating and compelling as my collection of toners. Anyone who doesn't like them, doesn't understand them, or doesn't trust them should simply collect something else.
" It is NOT true, in my opinion, that PCGS was previously very lax, and has only just recently woken up. They were always quite aware of the AT problem, and have always tried to keep those coins out of their holders. It's just that now, they are perhaps even more strict, with the "burden of proof" being on the coin - it has to 100% walk and talk NT. "
Did you read any of Laura's posts concerning why the CAC was starting up? Most of it was pointed at PCGS slabbing doctored and AT coins. Not to excuse NGC, as I'm sure they were doing the same, but the CAC finger seemed to be pointing pretty directly at PCGS back then....
Treeman, most of the concerns expressed at the time had much more to do with coins that were doctored in search of an upgrade. That includes, among many other tricks, the use of toning to hide other work. Other offenses included classic thumbing, lasering, buffing with ultra-fine wheels that leave little or no trace, application of oils, grease, putty, etc to hide scratches and hairlines, and much more. Some guys were even applying aluminum paint to devices on dipped cameo proofs to create ultra cameo contrast. The issue of coins being colorfully AT'd to enhance market value at the same grade was a considerably more minor concern.
The point of CAC was to weed out the coins that were doctored and messed with to get into holders, or to get into higher-graded holders; as well as coins that were jockeyed endlessly by crackout guys into overgraded holders. Any coin that is AT would fall under the "doctored and messed with" category that is clearly a target of CAC, but the AT color coins were definitely not the primary driving force in the creation of CAC.
Sunnywood, thanks for your input. I agree with your point that most early coinage, and much of the 19th century coins have been messed with in various fashions at some point in their lifetimes. I am fairly comfortable with what I collect, and I should have made the point in my original post that I like the coin I discussed in my post as much now as when I bought it. Most of the dates in that series in the '40's look like crap so when I see one that I like and it looks original to me, I buy it if I can afford it. You know my views on white 19th century silver coinage...I think we discussed this when I met you at Jan. FUN this past year. But to each his own. And opinions will continue to be conflicted even among experts about the originality of a particular coin. I guess the vindication that you've done the best you can comes when a coin you like (or your own coin) gets multiple bids at auction and goes for a strong price. Or at least there are like minded collectors/ dealers out there who share whatever qualities the coin had in the first place that made you like it.
Preface- I enjoy a good conspiracy as well as the next person regarding TPG's.
However, in this case I think they are getting it right with a "smaller strike zone" or tighter toning standards.
It seems NGC and PCGS in unison have declared war against the AT doctors, just as CAC did with the putty gold masters. ( I think it started with CAC on the gold side) The timing of this three headed coin doctor dragon slayer may just be a "coin"cidence or it may be deliberate and coordinated. JMO. Regardless, I'm good with it. This is a good thing for the long run imo.
Hide the babies as a few will get thrown out with the bath water. No doubt that will happen. Not a perfect world.
As a toned collector I'm ok with tougher standards and subsequently as a by product, putting the brakes on crack outs and re submissions for upgrades ad nauseam until the coin is made. I think the TPG's know this will hurt their upgrade/crackout business and that's commendable imo in an effort to fight the good fight. Some will say it's only to protect their guarentee's. Regardless, the crack out artists will really be pressing their luck trying for upgrades on toned coins. Lot's of downside risk/reward on anything that's not 100%. To one of the OP's points (and I hope I'm not putting words in the the OP's mouth) it would nice to know what the new rules/standards are, if indeed there are any. An attempt at clarity would be good even in a cloudy subjective industry.
JMHO.........MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Like the old saying about "the good suffering for the bad" - as tradedollarnut first suggested, I too believe that this is what is going on yet as we all come to know - everything changes and comes full circle.
My gut instinct tells me that huge payouts, per Guarantee of Grade, must have been made on past coins that once made their way past graders and now the squeeze on all toners is ON.
I also believe that once the dust settles, many good coins that are NT but currently being made to suffer, will again, one day make their way into rightfully graded holders but as for Now - the good suffers for the bad. JMHO-FWIW!
One can conclude that it will be as HRH & TDN said - that unless absolutely certain a coin is NT, no coin that casts the least shadow of doubt will be holdered!
So - unless a coin looks just right, toners won't get holdered. Just my 2 bit gut instinct at work here. Nothing more or less.
Correct me if I'm wrong or totally off-base. I'll wager I'm not far off, if at all.
<<I agree with alot of what you said however I dont think the BIG crack out boys will be hurt very much if at all.
Your talking about a fairly small well connected group>>
dream killer
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
My opinion is that Nice looking, cleaned, and retoned, coins should slab. Most classic coins have been "messed with" to some degree, and a lot of slabbed "color" coins have been cleaned/dipped and retoned. I think there is a big difference between a dipped, album toned coin, and a doctored/AT coin. My feeling is that the TPG's have become so tight, it's kind of ruining the hobby. I think everyone would agree that there are a LOT of slabbed coins out there (both services) that, if cracked out and resubmitted today, would bag. Some of these coins SHOULD bag, but some are acceptable. What we have now are many slabbed coins that would not slab today. Yes, maybe it will weed out the "average" coins, and raise the bar for slabbed coins, but it may also discourage a lot of new collectors. I certainly don't condone slabbing doctored and AT'd coins, but bagging nicely (and "naturally") retoned coins is bordering on ridiculous. How many 100% original coins actually exist?
<< How many 100% original coins actually exist? >>
This is a legitimate question. Considering the fact that not till after the second half of the 20th Century, many people were "Country folk" and lived with NO A/C, no TV and all the things WE take for granted!
Silver is going to tone - especially in hot, humid conditions. (No A/C) We today, look back and sometimes forget this & wonder why people cleaned a coin. They didn't know better and would clean their silver coins right along with the rest of their silver-ware! They just didn't know any better.
Leave silver alone under such circumstances and it is going to tone just as silverware did. This explains a lot! The same holds true for very reactive copper. This makes true, original skinned Superb Gem BU coinage nothing short of Miraculous. We also tend to forget, when we look at dates on coins, not only what was going on at that given era in time but also subsequent time - such as both Worl Wars, perhaps even The Civil War and The Great Depression.
Watch old movies and notice how little things actually cost and that a Half Cent could actually buy something as was the case with nickels, dimes etc. Wow!
I can remember in my lifetime when I could actually buy a Coke and 3 candy bars with a Quarter. What can you buy with a Quarter today? Sometimes we forget such things and these things actually do matter in regards to coin stewardship.
So, Treeman - yours is a VERY good question! Answer - Not many.
Like the old saying about "the good suffering for the bad" - as tradedollarnut first suggested, I too believe that this is what is going on yet as we all come to know - everything changes and comes full circle.
(((My gut instinct tells me that huge payouts, per Guarantee of Grade, must have been made on past coins that once made their way past graders and now the squeeze on all toners is ON)))
So - unless a coin looks just right, toners won't get holdered. Just my 2 bit gut instinct at work here. Nothing more or less.
Correct me if I'm wrong or totally off-base. I'll wager I'm not far off, if at all. >>
Boomer.. That's what I meant in my post #39 in your thread.. Your gut feeling is 100% correct as I explained.. The TPG's won't come out and say it, but there is no doubt huge $$$ were and still are paid out to customers for graded NT slabbed coins, determind at a later time to be questionable and no questions asked guarantee/future problems and then that coin was cracked out as a AT misgraded speciman.. So, nice thread Boomer..
I really hate to see a ms 66 or 67 end up as a "Genuine" grade because some knucklehead decided to hit the lottery at others expense..
An interesting thread, and considering the topic, I am amazed that things have stayed this civil for 5 pages! My opinion, as stated by others earlier, is that the grading service have become much more knowledgeable about the techniques for A.T. and as a result, are rejecting many more coins than previously. As a result, some NT coins will be unfortunately rejected, but I suppose may stand a chance on resubmission.
<< <i>An interesting thread, and considering the topic, I am amazed that things have stayed this civil for 5 pages! My opinion, as stated by others earlier, is that the grading service have become much more knowledgeable about the techniques for A.T. and as a result, are rejecting many more coins than previously. As a result, some NT coins will be unfortunately rejected, but I suppose may stand a chance on resubmission. >>
Kaz, I agree with you with the knowledgeable grading process currently in place. As think way out there as many know me, and most of the time I am right, I believe the TPG's have someone that might of did all of this AT stuff to coinage in the first place or now a nusimatic chemist that now works for the TPG's. JMHO..
The more educated we as members of this community are, the better we may get at detecting AT or altered surfaces coins.
When this happens, we take away the power and income from those who doctor coins.
The problem is, these boards only make up a small fraction of the collecting community...
What we really need is an all-encompassing educational thread that lists, describes and shows doctored coins in various kinds of lighting so we can use it as a reference.
This includes AT coins of all types and methods and reasons for the doctoring.
These next few years may determine how well this hobby and its associated businesses survive into the future...
Altered coins in slabs (including counterfeit coins in counterfeit slabs) are just a small part of the problem.
Always looking for attractive rim toned Morgan and Peace dollars in PCGS or (older) ANA/ANACS holders!
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Thanks George (YaHa) for sharing ... in fact, thank everyone for sharing!
And anablep, I agree that we, as a community of collectors, can watch out for one another, share experiences & continue to learn together.
Your idea is a good one however bear in mind that the eyes of the world are able to access and peruse (read) these message boards and if we share different techniques that we've uncovered inevitably some of those eyes will use what we intend to be good for ill gotten gains.
Most of us are alike in many ways other than the blatantly obvious.
While no one from PCGS stepped up and said anything - the very fact that this thread is still alive, having most certainly been watched very closely, is Testament to the fact that we conducted ourselves well and did not accuse nor offend anyone associated with PCGS.
THAT is an answer in it's own right & I commend everyone, especially PCGS for allowing us to discuss this openly, in THEIR House!
We can share pictures - but I think they should be our own and NOT pictures or links to anyone else's as it's not necessary to out or offend anyone.
Perhaps if anyone has had a toner recently placed in a GENUINE holder and is confused as to why or KNOWS why - they can post their own and we can discuss ... BUT be very careful in presenting such pics so that this thread doesn't go by the wayside.
Just a thought, open for debate. I have some in an album that I would Welcome opinions on but I know they are NT - album toned - however there is no Guarantee they'll grade in lieu of all we've talked about.
Comments
<< <i>Not quite right, coinjunkie. There are many coins that CAN be decisively called AT or NT, and the standard remains absolute with respect to those coins. The issue is that there are some coins that cannot be decisively identified as either AT or NT. The question is what standard should be applied to those coins. Perhaps they look plausible, or even "market acceptable," but their origin is still in doubt for various reasons. If what TDN said above is true, then previously there was a time when those coins might have been admitted to the club, while apparently now they are being kept out to be on the safe side.
Keeping them out is the right thing to do if there has been an increase in the number of coins in that category, produced by profiteers trying to game the system by counterfeiting nature's work and defrauding the collecting community. >>
Thanks for expressing what I was trying to say. Perhaps "any given coin" was too ambiguous. If we are to believe the
recent posters, these "questionable" toners are a significant percentage of the overall population.
<< <i>"G E N U I N E"
After all, it did end up in a slab. >>
Amen!
<< <i>
<< <i><<This may prove to be a somewhat challenging thread, especially
without photographs but we CAN DO THIS! CIVILLY.>>
TTIWWOP's.
I think some of it is directly caused by Cac, and collector awareness. >>
I don't think that CAC gives a chit about toning, since they aren't all about eye appeal. >>
I disagree with this. True, CAC is not all about eye appeal, but they are all about being in agreement with the assigned grade. If they feel a coin doesn't look right as far as the toning is concerned regardless of the assigned grade, I don't think they will give it their blessing with a green bean sticker.
<< <i>two words come to mind: baby and bathwater
they are running scared, and afraid to slab what could later sting them. Couple that with the fact that they get paid whether they slab it or not, and it comes up to nothing more than a cash grab. >>
i.e. Genuine
Heads on straight (as possible) -
All systems "Go"!
Stay OT - On Topic!
<< <i>OK - I've had my POT of Coffee and am ready to roll.
Heads on straight (as possible) -
All systems "Go"!
Stay OT - On Topic!
I would certainly like to see more input on this thread from everyone....
So would I and I welcome dialogue from PCGS.
No complaints from me but I AM concerned by things I've seen lately.
Coins that demonstrate the exact type toning that had previously been found "Market Acceptable"
are no longer? Why? What facilitated this?
Were coins previously graded & later deemed "AT" & HUGE BUYBACKS a Major factor here?
I DO NOT want to draw conclusions that could very well be in error.
I see sellers on Ebay with most of the AT'd inventory currently in PCGS holders....I won't name names but that doesn't make it any less true
I think the only thing folks with raw toned coins can do right now is save their money and just keep them in albums and flips
If you have questions or concerns, any doubt
regarding this issue - think before you type
but make your points (observations) and ask
your questions here, in a non-confrontational
manner.
<< <i>...ask your questions here, in a non-confrontational manner. >>
I don't know... the phrasing and emphasis WITH CAPS in this question strikes me as confrontational:
"Exactly WHAT has transpired within the Numismatic Industry (in particular, within the top 2 tpgs) that NOW has coins that exhibit the VERY SAME type toning that was so pervasive amongst many top, All Time Greatest Registry Sets, being Body Bagged for questionable color?"
<< <i>It's as simple as this:
HRH stated on this very chatroom that PCGS's prior policy was "if we're not 100% sure it's AT, then we'll slab it". As part of their solutions to the coin doctoring problem, PCGS and NGC recently stated that their policy is now "if we're not 100% sure it's NT, we won't slab it".
You need look no further than those creating all those toners for the reason for their change. >>
What he said.
speaking, the words (in CAPS) are as such to stress emphasis as well as diction.
Don't try to read more into this. It's quite obviously a straightforward question.
Spelling correction - what else!
Maybe when pcgs is done with there discussion on the term PQ they can get back to work and let us all know some anwsers.
HRH stated on this very chatroom that PCGS's prior policy was "if we're not 100% sure it's AT, then we'll slab it". As part of their solutions to the coin doctoring problem, PCGS and NGC recently stated that their policy is now "if we're not 100% sure it's NT, we won't slab it". >>
Taken at face value, this is proof positive that there has been a change -
which is going to present problems on coins submitted in the past that
graded quite high.
I'm sure you understand my point.
<< <i>Don't try to read more into this. It's quite obviously a straightforward question. >>
I'm not trying to read anything into it. I just told you what I thought about it after reading it. You might want to consider that maybe I'm not the only one who got that impression.
that some have poor comprehensive reading skills.
My words are simple enough. (ALL OF THEM!)
Obviously, that was a mistake.
and read what was actually written.
It's not that difficult.
<< <i>Suggestion - start from the beginning
and read what was actually written.
It's not that difficult. >>
Ok. I got part way through and found this:
"Boom - re-read your original post. You emphatically state that the exact same toning used to grade and now it bags. You even shout it in CAPS. That is argumentative in the extreme, and then you request civillity in responses?"
So I'm not the only one. Maybe (just possibly?) your writing is not as claer as you think it is?
Nahhhh... that can't be it.
john
<< <i> or are we entering a time when the work done is SO good even the very best can't come to an agreement? >>
Or possibly we are entering a time where so much information is available that we are coming to realize that a lot of presumed expertise
is really just "informed opinion"?
<< <i>Boom and mr.potato please stop the pissing match and get back to the topic. >>
Yeah... My monitor is dripping with spit.. Now
Copied & pasted from my 3rd post, post #5.
**************************************
Let's keep this civil & gentlemanly.
I ask this seemingly hard question
on behalf of ALL interested collectors.
Please - no name calling, insinuations or inuendoes, OK!?
Let's see if we can get to the Truth of the matter.
No need to get this thread yanked or vaporized guys.
peacockcoins
peacockcoins
in the hopes we may ALL come to learn
what really is going on.
Personally, it is my opinion that this
has nothing to do with JA's fine organization.
Well, what i would say has already been said by many other previous posters.
i must admit i do not find RedTiger's #2 too farfetched.
<< <i>2) A big time coin doc retires, confesses to getting 10,000 attractive toners slabbed a year, every year for the past five years. The doc does a show and tell, so that graders now know to look for and to reject those coins, all off the record. Again, grading companies would never want this info out there. A smaller example of this would be company insiders showing the graders coins that they personally toned very quickly using dubious methods, but that look great. Now that they have been show such coins, the graders now reject them. >>
This seems to be supported by the tightening of the TPGs on the toning at the same time!
Doogy's throwing the baby out with the bathwater also rings true in my mind. The TPGs are not even grading the PCI-toned Silver Eagles and are not grading the classic "bag" toned Morgans - at least that is my current experience.
i do not think CAC has had that much of an impact. For one, the coins that don't make it at CAC are not specially marked in a public way so how can embarrassment take place? Second, even if CAC were to have some giant impact it would likely be years down the road since many, many coins yet remain out there that have not been tried at CAC yet. Just like there are plenty of high-end raw coins out there that have never been tried at any TPG company.
i don't like AT coins in slabs, either. But MANOFCOINS is right: the TPGs have gone too far to the right as of the past few months.
See above. It continues to amaze me that so many on this forum draw sweeping conclusions from very, very, very limited info.
......................PS-this thread is completely worthless without pics. 5 pages and no examples???? Worthless.
If you collect early coinage, and really know your stuff, you'll quickly find that almost all the coins have been messed with in various ways during their lifetimes. You still have to choose from what is available though, and so you try to decide what your prioties are and what choices to make. Otherwise, you have to give up and go try something else.
I know that many white coins are unnatural. In the case of Morgans, many are also natural, based on the unique conditions of their storage. But the demand for blast white Morgans has motivated a lot of dipping and "conservation." Ditto in proof gold, where "conservation" has been further rewarded in recent years by many upgrades. I call this "dehistoricization" and/or "aritifical whitening."
Similarly, I know that many toned coins have been accelerated or enhanced. Again in the case of Morgans, many are also natural, based on the unique conditions of their storage. The sealed Mint bags that sat for many decades in utterly undisturbed storage yielded both spectacular rainbow coins and blast white coins, based on their placement within the bag. Many Morgan dates were not well represented in the Treasury hoards, but found their way into other hoards (Redfield, Binion, Continental Illinois, etc) or in some rare instances into great collections (Eliasberg, Norweb, etc), where they also acquired natural patination over time.
In collecting Morgans (or any other series), I am left to choose between naturally white, artificially white, naturally toned and artificially toned coins. For many reasons, I chose to collect naturally and attractively toned Morgans. Of course that means trying to learn to distinguish NT from AT to the best of my ability. While it is not possible to be 100% certain 100% of the time, with the assistance of PCGS, CAC, and other experts, I am comfortable with my choices. Anyone who is not comfortable with toning should collect white coins. There are certainly plenty of blast white coins to be had. Had I chosen to collect blast white Morgans instead, I'm sure I would have plenty of dipped, artificially whitened coins in my collection, as well as naturally white coins. And I wouldn't have paid nearly as much for the set - but it also wouldn't be as utterly fascinating and compelling as my collection of toners. Anyone who doesn't like them, doesn't understand them, or doesn't trust them should simply collect something else.
Best,
Sunnywood
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Great posts Sunnywood.
K
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Did you read any of Laura's posts concerning why the CAC was starting up? Most of it was pointed at PCGS slabbing doctored and AT coins. Not to excuse NGC, as I'm sure they were doing the same, but the CAC finger seemed to be pointing pretty directly at PCGS back then....
The point of CAC was to weed out the coins that were doctored and messed with to get into holders, or to get into higher-graded holders; as well as coins that were jockeyed endlessly by crackout guys into overgraded holders. Any coin that is AT would fall under the "doctored and messed with" category that is clearly a target of CAC, but the AT color coins were definitely not the primary driving force in the creation of CAC.
Sunnywood's Rainbow-Toned Morgans (Retired)
Sunnywood's Barber Quarters (Retired)
Kindest Regards,
John
However, in this case I think they are getting it right with a "smaller strike zone" or tighter toning standards.
It seems NGC and PCGS in unison have declared war against the AT doctors, just as CAC did with the putty gold masters. ( I think it started with CAC on the gold side) The timing of this three headed coin doctor dragon slayer may just be a "coin"cidence or it may be deliberate and coordinated. JMO. Regardless, I'm good with it. This is a good thing for the long run imo.
Hide the babies as a few will get thrown out with the bath water. No doubt that will happen. Not a perfect world.
As a toned collector I'm ok with tougher standards and subsequently as a by product, putting the brakes on crack outs and re submissions for upgrades ad nauseam until the coin is made. I think the TPG's know this will hurt their upgrade/crackout business and that's commendable imo in an effort to fight the good fight. Some will say it's only to protect their guarentee's. Regardless, the crack out artists will really be pressing their luck trying for upgrades on toned coins. Lot's of downside risk/reward on anything that's not 100%. To one of the OP's points (and I hope I'm not putting words in the the OP's mouth) it would nice to know what the new rules/standards are, if indeed there are any. An attempt at clarity would be good even in a cloudy subjective industry.
JMHO.........MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Like the old saying about "the good suffering for the bad" -
as tradedollarnut first suggested, I too believe that this is
what is going on yet as we all come to know - everything
changes and comes full circle.
My gut instinct tells me that huge payouts, per Guarantee
of Grade, must have been made on past coins that once made
their way past graders and now the squeeze on all toners is ON.
I also believe that once the dust settles, many good coins
that are NT but currently being made to suffer, will again,
one day make their way into rightfully graded holders but
as for Now - the good suffers for the bad. JMHO-FWIW!
One can conclude that it will be as HRH & TDN said -
that unless absolutely certain a coin is NT, no coin
that casts the least shadow of doubt will be holdered!
So - unless a coin looks just right, toners won't get holdered.
Just my 2 bit gut instinct at work here. Nothing more or less.
Correct me if I'm wrong or totally off-base. I'll wager I'm not
far off, if at all.
Your talking about a fairly small well connected group>>
dream killer
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
This is a legitimate question. Considering the fact that not till after
the second half of the 20th Century, many people were "Country folk"
and lived with NO A/C, no TV and all the things WE take for granted!
Silver is going to tone - especially in hot, humid conditions. (No A/C)
We today, look back and sometimes forget this & wonder why people
cleaned a coin. They didn't know better and would clean their silver coins
right along with the rest of their silver-ware! They just didn't know any better.
Leave silver alone under such circumstances and it is going to tone just as
silverware did. This explains a lot! The same holds true for very reactive copper.
This makes true, original skinned Superb Gem BU coinage nothing short of
Miraculous. We also tend to forget, when we look at dates on coins, not only
what was going on at that given era in time but also subsequent time -
such as both Worl Wars, perhaps even The Civil War and The Great Depression.
Watch old movies and notice how little things actually cost and that a Half Cent
could actually buy something as was the case with nickels, dimes etc. Wow!
I can remember in my lifetime when I could actually buy a Coke and 3 candy bars
with a Quarter. What can you buy with a Quarter today? Sometimes we forget
such things and these things actually do matter in regards to coin stewardship.
So, Treeman - yours is a VERY good question! Answer - Not many.
<< <i>Excellent, informative posts!
Like the old saying about "the good suffering for the bad" -
as tradedollarnut first suggested, I too believe that this is
what is going on yet as we all come to know - everything
changes and comes full circle.
(((My gut instinct tells me that huge payouts, per Guarantee
of Grade, must have been made on past coins that once made
their way past graders and now the squeeze on all toners is ON)))
So - unless a coin looks just right, toners won't get holdered.
Just my 2 bit gut instinct at work here. Nothing more or less.
Correct me if I'm wrong or totally off-base. I'll wager I'm not
far off, if at all.
Boomer.. That's what I meant in my post #39 in your thread.. Your gut feeling is 100% correct as I explained.. The TPG's won't come out and say it, but there is no doubt huge $$$ were and still are paid out to customers for graded NT slabbed coins, determind at a later time to be questionable and no questions asked guarantee/future problems and then that coin was cracked out as a AT misgraded speciman.. So, nice thread Boomer..
I really hate to see a ms 66 or 67 end up as a "Genuine" grade because some knucklehead decided to hit the lottery at others expense..
Old school
<< <i>An interesting thread, and considering the topic, I am amazed that things have stayed this civil for 5 pages! My opinion, as stated by others earlier, is that the grading service have become much more knowledgeable about the techniques for A.T. and as a result, are rejecting many more coins than previously. As a result, some NT coins will be unfortunately rejected, but I suppose may stand a chance on resubmission. >>
Kaz, I agree with you with the knowledgeable grading process currently in place. As think way out there as many know me, and most of the time I am right, I believe the TPG's have someone that might of did all of this AT stuff to coinage in the first place or now a nusimatic chemist that now works for the TPG's. JMHO..
When this happens, we take away the power and income from those who doctor coins.
The problem is, these boards only make up a small fraction of the collecting community...
What we really need is an all-encompassing educational thread that lists, describes and shows doctored coins in various kinds of lighting so we can use it as a reference.
This includes AT coins of all types and methods and reasons for the doctoring.
These next few years may determine how well this hobby and its associated businesses survive into the future...
Altered coins in slabs (including counterfeit coins in counterfeit slabs) are just a small part of the problem.
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
long pause...didn't think so.
Oh yeah, 98
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>101 my favorite FWY to be on at 2:30 a.m. on a mototcycle- after a hard nioght of partyin.... >>
Sounds like you've already been partyin' ya old fart.
And anablep, I agree that we, as a community of collectors, can watch
out for one another, share experiences & continue to learn together.
Your idea is a good one however bear in mind that the eyes of the world
are able to access and peruse (read) these message boards and if we
share different techniques that we've uncovered inevitably some of
those eyes will use what we intend to be good for ill gotten gains.
Most of us are alike in many ways other than the blatantly obvious.
While no one from PCGS stepped up and said anything - the very fact
that this thread is still alive, having most certainly been watched very
closely, is Testament to the fact that we conducted ourselves well and
did not accuse nor offend anyone associated with PCGS.
THAT is an answer in it's own right & I commend everyone, especially
PCGS for allowing us to discuss this openly, in THEIR House!
We can share pictures - but I think they should be our own and NOT
pictures or links to anyone else's as it's not necessary to out or offend
anyone.
Perhaps if anyone has had a toner recently placed in a GENUINE holder
and is confused as to why or KNOWS why - they can post their own and
we can discuss ... BUT be very careful in presenting such pics so that
this thread doesn't go by the wayside.
Just a thought, open for debate. I have some in an album that I would
Welcome opinions on but I know they are NT - album toned - however
there is no Guarantee they'll grade in lieu of all we've talked about.