The data has been presented. In fact, I copied an article to this thread.
Softparade, there is no need for you to even enter the discussion with your Axtell-esque posts...because they get nowhere.
What you need to do is go ahead and clarify where 'your eyes' put Jeter among MLB defensive shortstops, instead of just twisted jibberish you speak.
Make sure you let us know which eyes you are using though...the ones with hearts in them, or the one's with Jeter's penis in them.
P.S. The rankings are where Jeter stands among starting SS. There are bench players who are better defenders than him as well throughout those years.
Like I said from the beginning, a lonely guy like softparade sits in the stands and watches Jeter do stuff defensively that he himself cannot do, so he is in awe of him. What he doesn't realize is that shortstops in MLB parks across America are doing the same thing, and MORE. This is where softy-tell, 'doesn't get it.'
Shortstop GROUND DP PLUS/MINUS GIDP Runs Outs To His Straight To His Runs Year Team Inn Opps GIDP Pct Saved Rank Made Right On Left GB Air Total Saved Rank
He is 12th this year. The previous five years he was 31st, 34th, 34th 34th, and 32nd. At least he's consistent. The ball is in your court. Show me the stats that say he is good.
When that evidence was presented previously, a clown like Softparade just calls it 'twisted' or 'statistical mumbo jumble'.
Why they call it twisted is the biggest question. It is an OBJECTIVE study. He is under the impression that the evaluators only goal is to find some sort of study for the sole purpose of poking holes into the myth of Jeter. The goal of this study, and the hours put into it, and the accuracy it achieved, were for much bigger purposes than to try and find a fault in Jeter(which is what softparade believes).
What is truly at work is that guys like softparade walk around thinking they know what they are talking about, but then their bias and ignorance are revealed with stuff like this study, they are shaken and can't handle that, so they make stupid comments like ' the Braves SS not being able to carry Jeter's jock.' This way, they can take the focus off their bias and ignorance in the matter that is truly at hand. Or, they can call someone a stat geek to also avoid having their ignorance revealed.
The best is when Softparade says, 'his eyes' saw Jeter, and then uses that as a defense against the study. This is the biggest kicker, because this study had eyes that saw EVERY SINGLE play of Jeter, and EVERY SINGLE PLAY of all the other shortstops for comparison purposes. Which is going to produce better results? Certainly not softparades, because when his eyes are looking at Jeter they are blinded by hearts and penis's.
IN actuality, he is really worse than 34th in the defensive spectrum, because there are bench players who are superior defenders than him...but dont' play because they can't hit, thus don't get enough innings in the field.
What his 34th ranking is showing is that there are some part time players who have achieved more, and in less innings. Which does not bode well for a defender of Jeter's 'defense'.
Yup, he is 12th this year. It could be he improved, or it could be a 'career year' type spike. Good to see that you recognized this 'one year', and then put credence into the study...but then seemingly are discounting the string of years where he was ranked 30th or worse.
That would be like basing Jeter's hitting career ONLY on last seasons numbers(which were down) and proclaiming him just to be good.
I think the main point of why I am posting in here, is that people make these guesses, based on 'their eyes', and time and time again, their eyes are simply misinformed. They don't have all the required information. This is the perfect study against those 'eye' people, because it IS an eye study...only it is a thousand times more accurate. It highlights how bias and lack of information cloud judgements.
What his 34th ranking is showing is that there are some part time players who have achieved more, and in less innings. Which does not bode well for a defender of Jeter's 'defense'.
There is NO way they achieve MORE in less innings Hoops. What they may achieve is a higher pct but I doubt they have more total chances in less games.
Can you explain how he is ranked 12th this year?
Or is it simply the difference between 12th and 34th is so miniscule that it is silly to even debate it?
Surely one can't be 'horrible' and be rated 12 out of 35 SS.
Yup, he is 12th this year. It could be he improved, or it could be a 'career year' type spike. Good to see that you recognized this 'one year', and then put credence into the study...but then seemingly are discounting the string of years where he was ranked 30th or worse
Winpitcher, you can apply 'horrible' or whatever adjective you wish to describe a guy who ranks 30th every year, and then 12th this year. I'm not hear to argue which adjective to use.
Is the difference between 12th and 30th so miniscule that it isn't even worth to debate? No. In terms of runs saved/prevented it is a similar difference between the 12th best hitter and 30th best hitter at the position. There is a difference. Not as concrete has the hitting evidence, but a noticeable difference for sure.
Will Jeter continue to have another year as a middle of the pack defensvive player? Possibly. Maybe his defensive work paid off. Maybe he just has luck on his side this year. I guess the next two years will show.
Further, are there bench guys better defensively than him? Absolutely. There are also Minor League players better than him defensively...they simply don't hit enough to get there.
Again, my main purpose is the argument against the biased/misinformed eye test that these zealots always use when something gets in the way of their hero. This fielding example debate is the perfect fit.
Winpitcher, everyone can have an opinion...it is jsut that their opinion are forumlated from bias, and lack of information.
The only thing I take as gospel is death. Your opinion on the fielding, is not worth as much as the results from the ones shown in the data study. Actually, neither is mine.
There really is nothing I can do to improve that study. I could formulate my own opinion on that, but I would be severely lacking in the information and evidence that they have. Really, I just have to tip my hat to them, and figure that Jeter really does rank somewhere that low. It wasn't some third grade students that did that...it was sound and smart people with a great method. MLB teams also subscribe to it.
As outlined above your previous post, notice how your quotes match in this thread and the Jeter thread. I caught your comments. Not sure your entire intent for them here, but they are all too similar....hence me joining in this thread.
Jeter is the best thing since sliced bread. He has already broken all sorts of Yankee records, including most hits at the old Yankee Stadium which will never be broken. He is on pace to be the first 3,000 hitter in Yankee history within a few years. At the end of this year or the beginning of next year, Jeter will break Lou Gehrig's record and become the all time Yankee Hit Leader. By the way, if Jeter plays until he is 45 years old like Pete Rose did, he is ahead of Rose's all time hit pace.
Next Jeter basher please......
"The answer was in the Patriots eyes. Gone were the swagger and c0ck sure smirks, replaced by downcast eyes and heads in hands. For his poise and leadership Eli Manning was named the game's MVP. The 2007 Giants were never perfect nor meant to be. They were fighters, scrappers....now they could be called something else, World Champions."
Great article here .... offered to the stat twisting geeks who want to bring Derek Jeter down ... as relevant as the shoddy analysis in ultra boring rants about his defense and to the same who think they "GET IT"
It is incredibly obnoxious for Derek Jeter to be put under the defense microscope simply because he is Derek Jeter and the dopes of who I speak of think they have found "an in" to tear him down. There is NO OTHER reason to amplify this horrid debate initiated by the clueless other then flat out jealousy.
BRONX BOMBSHELL: DEREK JETER SAYS HE USED STEROIDS
Well, what would you do if ESPN interrupted your regularly scheduled programming for that one? Would it be enough to make you shred your season tickets, douse your baseball cards with charcoal fluid and delete America's pastime from your Facebook friends list?
If I ever see Jeter's name attached to the hip of performance enhancers, I'm done. I mean it -- I'll never watch another big league game again. Because if Captain Pinstripes could do the Vitamin S deed, then anybody can.
Jeter's name is where I draw the line in the PED sand. He is the absolute last guy I'd ever suspect of juicing. It seems so, well, beneath him. He is the one player who I actually think would walk away from the game if he thought he had to cheat to compete.
Wouldn't be much point in caring about baseball if Derek Jeter's name ever showed up on some performance-enhancing drug list. To me, Jeter is the anti-Barry Bonds, the anti-Roger Clemens and the anti-Alex Rodriguez. He understands that if you compromise the game, you compromise yourself.
Bonds, who didn't need to cheat but did anyway, was undone by an ego the size of Alcatraz. Clemens, the pathological liar who tries to intimidate people into believing his gum-wrapper-thin explanations, cheated because he was "The Rocket'' and you're not. And A-Rod, overpowered by the need to please and justify his historic contract, copped to at least three seasons of PED use -- but only after lying about it for years and only after he was cornered by the truth.
Not Jeter. I can see him marrying Mariah Carey before I see him squirming in front of a Congressional hearing with the lawyered-up Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire. I can see him in a Boston Red Sox uni before I see him smirking his way through PED revelations like Manny Ramirez did in Los Angeles.
Jeter would never put himself in that position. At least, that's what I want to believe. Then again, I wanted to believe it with his New York Yankees teammate, A-Rod. More than anything, I wanted to believe in the integrity of Rodriguez's numbers.
I'm not a Yankees honk. In fact, I want to scrape my ears with a steel-haired barbecue grill brush every time I hear play-by-play man John Sterling do that grating, "Thhhhhhhhhhhhe Yankees win!'' thing. But how can you not admire the way Jeter treats his craft? He is the template for baseball professionalism.
That's why I'd need a year's worth of Dr. Oz therapy sessions if it turns out Jeter did the steroids deed. And I'm not the only one.
Yankees fans would go into permanent mourning if Jeter betrayed them. A-Rod's steroids admission they could handle; he was a free-agent import. Jeter, though, was born and raised by the organization. You think Yankees and you think Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Maris, Berra, Munson, Reggie and Jeter.
Same thing goes for St. Louis. Cardinals fans worshipped Big Mac and then watched in disbelief as he napalmed his sport and reputation by refusing to "discuss the past.''
Can you imagine if Albert Pujols, the man who eventually replaced McGwire at first base, was a syringe enthusiast? City officials would have to set up a baseball suicide prevention clinic at Busch Stadium. Cards fans adore Pujols.
A Jeter steroids admission would be the deal-breaker for me. Pujols, too. If those guys went pharmaceutical, I couldn't go to a big league game if Bud Selig paid me.
Who would it be for you?
Fans in St. Louis were burned by Mark McGwire. They couldn't handle it if another superstar got caught in this PED mess. Ken Griffey Jr.? If The Kid did it, I'm gone.
Chipper Jones? The same.
Mariano Rivera? I'd think about it.
Joe Mauer? The sound of weeping followed by my baseball resignation letter.
Jim Thome? Baseball's nicest guy wouldn't do that to us, would he?
Tim Lincecum? Sadness if The Freak was a fake.
Trevor Hoffman? Hells bells, please not Hoffman.
David Wright? See Mauer response.
More and maybe all of those names on that "secret'' steroids list will eventually leak out. In February, it was A-Rod. In June, it was Sosa. Last month it was Ramirez and David Ortiz. It's death by 96 or so paper cuts.
So far the game has survived the depressing revelations. It sort of coagulates, scabs up and then heals as best as it can.
But there could come a time when the PED damage reaches a tipping point. For me, the magic number is 2.
Jeter's jersey number.
Gene Wojciechowski is the senior national columnist for ESPN.com. You can contact him at gene.wojciechowski@espn3.com. Hear Gene's podcasts and ESPN Radio appearances by clicking here.
For the record, my arguments have nothing to do with jealousy about Jeter. In fact, I have touted him for the praise he truly deserves. Two cases in point.
1). I was his biggest defender on him winning the MVP a couple of years ago...the one that Morneau won, and Jeter SHOULD have won.
2). I have touted him to break the all time hit record.
What my main argument is about is the way people were judging him defensively...with their 'eye' test, and how faulty their test is.
Winpitcher, yes I know that even the best defensive measurment is faulty as well, but is certainly more telling and accurate than the fan's 'eye' test. Afterall, the best defensive measurement is driven by an eye test, only it is one that has seen every play of every MLB shortstop for the given years.
PS. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Jeter was/is on PED's. I can't see how anybody is surprised when any of these names come out. PED use has been the culture of MLB the last dozen odd years. They are immersed in it.
In this case, you mentioned that even this comprehensive defensive study presented here wasn't without flaws...and it isn't. I was simply recognizing your thoughts in regard to that measurement. The rest of the stuff wasn't meant to be attributed to you.
<< <i> PS. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Jeter was/is on PED's. I can't see how anybody is surprised when any of these names come out. PED use has been the culture of MLB the last dozen odd years. They are immersed in it. >>
Uhhh, "who" are immersed? Are you saying that no player has played his career above the hideous steroid mess? All players are lopped into one category? All it would take is an "eye test" Skinny. But you are right, to hell with what we all witness on the field through the years with our eyes. I am sure you are a great coach!
Softparade, NO player from this era is beyond suspicion, NO PLAYER!
And if they don't like that, then they should have stood up at their union meetings and demanded blood testing. But alas, they didn't...because an extremely high percentage were on something.
My eye test on Jeter shows a guy who is much stronger than that 'gay' picture he took with the other scrawny SS in 1995 or something.
Comments
The data has been presented. In fact, I copied an article to this thread.
Softparade, there is no need for you to even enter the discussion with your Axtell-esque posts...because they get nowhere.
What you need to do is go ahead and clarify where 'your eyes' put Jeter among MLB defensive shortstops, instead of just twisted jibberish you speak.
Make sure you let us know which eyes you are using though...the ones with hearts in them, or the one's with Jeter's penis in them.
P.S. The rankings are where Jeter stands among starting SS. There are bench players who are better defenders than him as well throughout those years.
Like I said from the beginning, a lonely guy like softparade sits in the stands and watches Jeter do stuff defensively that he himself cannot do, so he is in awe of him. What he doesn't realize is that shortstops in MLB parks across America are doing the same thing, and MORE. This is where softy-tell, 'doesn't get it.'
Shortstop
GROUND DP PLUS/MINUS
GIDP Runs Outs To His Straight To His Runs
Year Team Inn Opps GIDP Pct Saved Rank Made Right On Left GB Air Total Saved Rank
2004 NYY 1341.2 146 85 .582 0 12 456 -24 +5 -5 -25 +9 -16 -12 32
2005 NYY 1352.2 156 84 .538 -2 31 526 -18 +3 -25 -39 +5 -34 -26 34
2006 NYY 1292.1 131 75 .573 -1 27 450 -10 +1 -10 -19 -3 -22 -17 34
2007 NYY 1318.1 152 98 .645 3 2 420 -14 -6 -14 -33 -1 -34 -26 34
2008 NYY 1258.2 106 58 .547 -1 24 430 -18 +9 -1 -10 -1 -11 -8 31
2009 NYY 871.1 96 50 .521 -2 34 274 +2 +5 -1 +6 0 +6 5 12
He is 12th this year. The previous five years he was 31st, 34th, 34th 34th, and 32nd. At least he's consistent. The ball is in your court. Show me the stats that say he is good.
When that evidence was presented previously, a clown like Softparade just calls it 'twisted' or 'statistical mumbo jumble'.
Why they call it twisted is the biggest question. It is an OBJECTIVE study. He is under the impression that the evaluators only goal is to find some sort of study for the sole purpose of poking holes into the myth of Jeter. The goal of this study, and the hours put into it, and the accuracy it achieved, were for much bigger purposes than to try and find a fault in Jeter(which is what softparade believes).
What is truly at work is that guys like softparade walk around thinking they know what they are talking about, but then their bias and ignorance are revealed with stuff like this study, they are shaken and can't handle that, so they make stupid comments like ' the Braves SS not being able to carry Jeter's jock.' This way, they can take the focus off their bias and ignorance in the matter that is truly at hand. Or, they can call someone a stat geek to also avoid having their ignorance revealed.
The best is when Softparade says, 'his eyes' saw Jeter, and then uses that as a defense against the study. This is the biggest kicker, because this study had eyes that saw EVERY SINGLE play of Jeter, and EVERY SINGLE PLAY of all the other shortstops for comparison purposes. Which is going to produce better results? Certainly not softparades, because when his eyes are looking at Jeter they are blinded by hearts and penis's.
Then we rest our case, thanks for finally proving that he is NOT the horrible SS that you claimed earlier in the thread.
As for the past 5 years HOW is he 34th best when MLB has only 30 teams?
Steve
Lets see how many people even post about him.
Steve
IN actuality, he is really worse than 34th in the defensive spectrum, because there are bench players who are superior defenders than him...but dont' play because they can't hit, thus don't get enough innings in the field.
What his 34th ranking is showing is that there are some part time players who have achieved more, and in less innings. Which does not bode well for a defender of Jeter's 'defense'.
Yup, he is 12th this year. It could be he improved, or it could be a 'career year' type spike. Good to see that you recognized this 'one year', and then put credence into the study...but then seemingly are discounting the string of years where he was ranked 30th or worse.
That would be like basing Jeter's hitting career ONLY on last seasons numbers(which were down) and proclaiming him just to be good.
I think the main point of why I am posting in here, is that people make these guesses, based on 'their eyes', and time and time again, their eyes are simply misinformed. They don't have all the required information. This is the perfect study against those 'eye' people, because it IS an eye study...only it is a thousand times more accurate. It highlights how bias and lack of information cloud judgements.
What his 34th ranking is showing is that there are some part time players who have achieved more, and in less innings. Which does not bode well for a defender of Jeter's 'defense'.
There is NO way they achieve MORE in less innings Hoops. What they may achieve is a higher pct but I doubt they have more total chances in less games.
Can you explain how he is ranked 12th this year?
Or is it simply the difference between 12th and 34th is so miniscule that it is silly to even debate it?
Surely one can't be 'horrible' and be rated 12 out of 35 SS.
Steve
I did not discount anything. Nice try though.
Steve
Is the difference between 12th and 30th so miniscule that it isn't even worth to debate? No. In terms of runs saved/prevented it is a similar difference between the 12th best hitter and 30th best hitter at the position. There is a difference. Not as concrete has the hitting evidence, but a noticeable difference for sure.
Will Jeter continue to have another year as a middle of the pack defensvive player? Possibly. Maybe his defensive work paid off. Maybe he just has luck on his side this year. I guess the next two years will show.
Further, are there bench guys better defensively than him? Absolutely. There are also Minor League players better than him defensively...they simply don't hit enough to get there.
Again, my main purpose is the argument against the biased/misinformed eye test that these zealots always use when something gets in the way of their hero. This fielding example debate is the perfect fit.
(except for one earlier in the thread and he was using data supplied bt Bill James)
The thing is they were defending Jeter because the OP in his zeal (and prolly 16th thread about Jeter)
said he was HORRIBLE.
You then chimed in and as usual all hell broke loose. The bottom line IMO and it is only my opinion is that
you feel that you are the only person that can have an opinion and that your opinion is the only right one.
Sorry to tell you BUT other people can have opinions and yours is not the only right one.
You just want to argue and slam your opinion down other peoples throats. You did it with Dan and now your are doing it with me.
In closing, I'll say it again just so there is no misunderstanding, I do not think Jeter is the best SS I do not think he is a 'horrible' SS.
I also feel how they measure these things is FLAWED and that I don't take them as gospel like you do.
Steve
The only thing I take as gospel is death. Your opinion on the fielding, is not worth as much as the results from the ones shown in the data study. Actually, neither is mine.
There really is nothing I can do to improve that study. I could formulate my own opinion on that, but I would be severely lacking in the information and evidence that they have. Really, I just have to tip my hat to them, and figure that Jeter really does rank somewhere that low. It wasn't some third grade students that did that...it was sound and smart people with a great method. MLB teams also subscribe to it.
As outlined above your previous post, notice how your quotes match in this thread and the Jeter thread. I caught your comments. Not sure your entire intent for them here, but they are all too similar....hence me joining in this thread.
Next Jeter basher please......
"The answer was in the Patriots eyes. Gone were the swagger and c0ck sure smirks, replaced by downcast eyes and heads in hands. For his poise and leadership Eli Manning was named the game's MVP. The 2007 Giants were never perfect nor meant to be. They were fighters, scrappers....now they could be called something else, World Champions."
It is incredibly obnoxious for Derek Jeter to be put under the defense microscope simply because he is Derek Jeter and the dopes of who I speak of think they have found "an in" to tear him down. There is NO OTHER reason to amplify this horrid debate initiated by the clueless other then flat out jealousy.
BRONX BOMBSHELL: DEREK JETER SAYS HE USED STEROIDS
Well, what would you do if ESPN interrupted your regularly scheduled programming for that one? Would it be enough to make you shred your season tickets, douse your baseball cards with charcoal fluid and delete America's pastime from your Facebook friends list?
If I ever see Jeter's name attached to the hip of performance enhancers, I'm done. I mean it -- I'll never watch another big league game again. Because if Captain Pinstripes could do the Vitamin S deed, then anybody can.
Jeter's name is where I draw the line in the PED sand. He is the absolute last guy I'd ever suspect of juicing. It seems so, well, beneath him. He is the one player who I actually think would walk away from the game if he thought he had to cheat to compete.
Wouldn't be much point in caring about baseball if Derek Jeter's name ever showed up on some performance-enhancing drug list.
To me, Jeter is the anti-Barry Bonds, the anti-Roger Clemens and the anti-Alex Rodriguez. He understands that if you compromise the game, you compromise yourself.
Bonds, who didn't need to cheat but did anyway, was undone by an ego the size of Alcatraz. Clemens, the pathological liar who tries to intimidate people into believing his gum-wrapper-thin explanations, cheated because he was "The Rocket'' and you're not. And A-Rod, overpowered by the need to please and justify his historic contract, copped to at least three seasons of PED use -- but only after lying about it for years and only after he was cornered by the truth.
Not Jeter. I can see him marrying Mariah Carey before I see him squirming in front of a Congressional hearing with the lawyered-up Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire. I can see him in a Boston Red Sox uni before I see him smirking his way through PED revelations like Manny Ramirez did in Los Angeles.
Jeter would never put himself in that position. At least, that's what I want to believe. Then again, I wanted to believe it with his New York Yankees teammate, A-Rod. More than anything, I wanted to believe in the integrity of Rodriguez's numbers.
I'm not a Yankees honk. In fact, I want to scrape my ears with a steel-haired barbecue grill brush every time I hear play-by-play man John Sterling do that grating, "Thhhhhhhhhhhhe Yankees win!'' thing. But how can you not admire the way Jeter treats his craft? He is the template for baseball professionalism.
That's why I'd need a year's worth of Dr. Oz therapy sessions if it turns out Jeter did the steroids deed. And I'm not the only one.
Yankees fans would go into permanent mourning if Jeter betrayed them. A-Rod's steroids admission they could handle; he was a free-agent import. Jeter, though, was born and raised by the organization. You think Yankees and you think Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Mantle, Maris, Berra, Munson, Reggie and Jeter.
Same thing goes for St. Louis. Cardinals fans worshipped Big Mac and then watched in disbelief as he napalmed his sport and reputation by refusing to "discuss the past.''
Can you imagine if Albert Pujols, the man who eventually replaced McGwire at first base, was a syringe enthusiast? City officials would have to set up a baseball suicide prevention clinic at Busch Stadium. Cards fans adore Pujols.
A Jeter steroids admission would be the deal-breaker for me. Pujols, too. If those guys went pharmaceutical, I couldn't go to a big league game if Bud Selig paid me.
Who would it be for you?
Fans in St. Louis were burned by Mark McGwire. They couldn't handle it if another superstar got caught in this PED mess.
Ken Griffey Jr.? If The Kid did it, I'm gone.
Chipper Jones? The same.
Mariano Rivera? I'd think about it.
Joe Mauer? The sound of weeping followed by my baseball resignation letter.
Jim Thome? Baseball's nicest guy wouldn't do that to us, would he?
Tim Lincecum? Sadness if The Freak was a fake.
Trevor Hoffman? Hells bells, please not Hoffman.
David Wright? See Mauer response.
More and maybe all of those names on that "secret'' steroids list will eventually leak out. In February, it was A-Rod. In June, it was Sosa. Last month it was Ramirez and David Ortiz. It's death by 96 or so paper cuts.
So far the game has survived the depressing revelations. It sort of coagulates, scabs up and then heals as best as it can.
But there could come a time when the PED damage reaches a tipping point. For me, the magic number is 2.
Jeter's jersey number.
Gene Wojciechowski is the senior national columnist for ESPN.com. You can contact him at gene.wojciechowski@espn3.com. Hear Gene's podcasts and ESPN Radio appearances by clicking here.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
For the record, my arguments have nothing to do with jealousy about Jeter. In fact, I have touted him for the praise he truly deserves. Two cases in point.
1). I was his biggest defender on him winning the MVP a couple of years ago...the one that Morneau won, and Jeter SHOULD have won.
2). I have touted him to break the all time hit record.
What my main argument is about is the way people were judging him defensively...with their 'eye' test, and how faulty their test is.
Winpitcher, yes I know that even the best defensive measurment is faulty as well, but is certainly more telling and accurate than the fan's 'eye' test. Afterall, the best defensive measurement is driven by an eye test, only it is one that has seen every play of every MLB shortstop for the given years.
PS. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Jeter was/is on PED's. I can't see how anybody is surprised when any of these names come out. PED use has been the culture of MLB the last dozen odd years. They are immersed in it.
I never said the 'eye test' was a good judge.
I think before you reply the next time regarding this you at least have your facts straight on who said what.
Steve
In this case, you mentioned that even this comprehensive defensive study presented here wasn't without flaws...and it isn't. I was simply recognizing your thoughts in regard to that measurement. The rest of the stuff wasn't meant to be attributed to you.
I like you too.
Steve
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
<< <i>
PS. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Jeter was/is on PED's. I can't see how anybody is surprised when any of these names come out. PED use has been the culture of MLB the last dozen odd years. They are immersed in it. >>
Uhhh, "who" are immersed? Are you saying that no player has played his career above the hideous steroid mess? All players are lopped into one category? All it would take is an "eye test" Skinny. But you are right, to hell with what we all witness on the field through the years with our eyes.
ISO 1978 Topps Baseball in NM-MT High Grade Raw 3, 100, 103, 302, 347, 376, 416, 466, 481, 487, 509, 534, 540, 554, 579, 580, 622, 642, 673, 724__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ISO 1978 O-Pee-Chee in NM-MT High Grade Raw12, 21, 29, 38, 49, 65, 69, 73, 74, 81, 95, 100, 104, 110, 115, 122, 132, 133, 135, 140, 142, 151, 153, 155, 160, 161, 167, 168, 172, 179, 181, 196, 200, 204, 210, 224, 231, 240
And if they don't like that, then they should have stood up at their union meetings and demanded blood testing. But alas, they didn't...because an extremely high percentage were on something.
My eye test on Jeter shows a guy who is much stronger than that 'gay' picture he took with the other scrawny SS in 1995 or something.
sadly I have to agree.
However jeter could not stand up and demand anything being in the league only a short time.
Today he might beable too, back then no.
Steve
looking for PELLE LINDBERGH's psa and 1960 fleer baseball psa 8 and up
sets in progress
R.I.P. Barstow 24 April 1999 - May 15 2009