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Are there any collectors today who are like Pittman?, ............. and..........

SanctionIISanctionII Posts: 11,660 ✭✭✭✭✭
............. if so, what types of coins is this person (these persons) collecting? Further when did this person [these persons] start collecting?

"like Pittman" means someone who does not have excessively deep pockets, but who has an eye for coins that would result in results similar to those arising from the Pittman's purchase of his coins [for a total expenditure of about $100,000.00 over his collecting life] and the sale of his coins after his death [for well over $20,000,000.00].

If it is possible for someone today duplicate Pittman, what coin series do you think would pose the best chance of appreciating like Pittman's coins?

Comments

  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Cladking?
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.


  • << <i>If it is possible for someone today duplicate Pittman, what coin series do you think would pose the best chance of appreciating like Pittman's coins? >>



    Those days are long gone once in a lifetime chance....Pittman was one of a kind....
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Those days are long gone once in a lifetime chance....Pittman was one of a kind....

    Pittman was good but he was hardly the best of his era. In fact, his biggest advantages were tenacity and longevity.

    Also, you forget two things. First, inflation. 100K used to be a whole lot of money. Second, there is a world beyond classic US coins. Great collections can still be amassed for relatively little money in US moderns, and in many areas of world coins.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
    what coin series do you think would pose the best chance of appreciating like Pittman's coins?

    Coins from the Central American Republic. They've been in the doghouse too long.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
  • RedTigerRedTiger Posts: 5,608
    I don't play the flipper game, but I would say that the U. S. Mint modern flippers are getting some of the biggest annualized percentage profits. Mostly it requires a way to get the coins (getting around the order limits), having a good idea about what will be hot, and what will bomb. If an issue bombs unexpectedly, dump the coins on the dumber crowd that isn't quite as skilled and wait for the next boat. Some of the best flippers in the country are on this forum, and a few have made 3x to 10x their money in a year and lived to repeat it to the next cycle.

    There was also the forum member that found a huge quantity of edgeless dollars when they were still hot and netted like six figures on that one deal.

  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,307 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Cladking? >>




    I was the first one I thought of too. image

    Pittman is a role model for me though I lack his intestinal fortitude and can't
    really match his eye. My memory is mostly good.

    He was a specialist though to a far greater extent than I. He also had more
    time to profit from his decisions.

    I do believe all my deficiencies will be more than made up for with a good dose
    of luck and being around at the right time.

    It's ironic that he was one of the very few people who got into clads before me.
    Tempus fugit.
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,772 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> If it is possible for someone today duplicate Pittman, what coin series do you think would pose the best chance of appreciating like Pittman's coins? >>



    No one really knows.

    Pittman did not know either. How do I know? Because he told me that. His answer was simply to be "across the board" and not to be concentrated in any one area. He really liked Canadian as well as US coins and got me into Canadian coins back in the early 70's.

    Pittman was the only coin collector ever to be President of both the ANA and the CNA.

    But my most endearing (YET ANNOYING) memory of Pittman was his "statute of liberty" pose at various auctions.
    I did not stand a chance against him!

    Funny, I never thought of him as being poor or on a very tight budget. Didn't he travel to Egypt to buy all sorts of patterns at the famous King Farouk Pattern Collection sold by the country of Egypt?
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 23,898 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So far as US coins go ... there won't be another "Pittman." Pittman was active during a window of opportunity for US coins that closed long, long ago. In Pittman's day there was tremendous opportunity for price appreciation in US coins. Today, everything is fully priced or overpriced when it comes to US.
    All glory is fleeting.
  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,115 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have thought about this previously, with other great collectors as well, such as John J. Ford (yes, I know he was a dealer also, but his collection of private holdings was enormous, assembled over many yeas, and recouped many X their investment price). I have to agree with 291fifth that the opportunity has passed, especially if you think in terms of percent of return. It's one thing to buy a number of say truly scarce premium $1000 coins and sell them many years later at 20X the initial investment. But will those acquiring these at $20,000 each be able to get 20X many years later? Doubtful....
    However, I do know a forum member amassing 'lots of nice stuff' a la Vergil Brand - full sets, and duplicates, triplicates, etc. of better dates and grades in many series, as well as currency. I would LOVE to see his holdings sometime!
    Successful BST transactions with 170 members. Recent: Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • savoyspecialsavoyspecial Posts: 7,267 ✭✭✭✭
    >>Funny, I never thought of him as being poor or on a very tight budget. Didn't he travel to Egypt to buy all sorts of patterns at the famous King Farouk Pattern Collection sold by the country of Egypt?>>


    i think the part of that story that keeps Pittman 'working class' in our collective memory, is that it has been retold many times that he took out a second mortgage on his house to participate in the Farouk sale

    www.brunkauctions.com



  • << <i>I have thought about this previously, with other great collectors as well, such as John J. Ford (yes, I know he was a dealer also, but his collection of private holdings was enormous, assembled over many yeas, and recouped many X their investment price). I have to agree with 291fifth that the opportunity has passed, especially if you think in terms of percent of return. It's one thing to buy a number of say truly scarce premium $1000 coins and sell them many years later at 20X the initial investment. But will those acquiring these at $20,000 each be able to get 20X many years later? Doubtful....
    However, I do know a forum member amassing 'lots of nice stuff' a la Vergil Brand - full sets, and duplicates, triplicates, etc. of better dates and grades in many series, as well as currency. I would LOVE to see his holdings sometime! >>



    Don't forget though. Some of the modern rarities Will turn into tommorow's treasures. I'm not talking about wheelchair athlete BU dollars or anything like that.

    Anyone know the whereabouts of any of the 22k? sac dollars that were made? I'm not sure if any of the 12 or so pieces ever hit public hands yet. I think the families of the designer or some such got them. One of those might be available especially in an economy like this for under 50k. I would love to own one. In future years this will be like an 1804 dollar. Bet ya.

    What do the aluminum lincoln cents from the 70's trade at? There are some that are legal to own, but most of us would poo poo them as being modern trash. Probably under 30k although I havent checked and just thought of them.

    Ever pick a no s proof set? Anyone have a decent handle of the true pop on these coins?

    How about double edge adams dollars. Maybe they become the 55/55 of this decade. What does that make the under 40 ms66 coins worth?


    I dont think anyone will ever amass as large or complete or as nice a collection without having relatively deeper pockets than those gentlemen mentioned above. It's just this hobby has become far more "mature" and youre not going to find a high relief proof $20 gold at auction and no one looking. Plus everything is certified and these guys did it with just plain old eyes and experience. Now its easy to get a "relative" value for your coin by slabbing it. I dont know a dealer that would buy a $4 Stella raw and not send it to slabland unless it has a hole in it. I do think theres plenty of places to pick your battles and get the same if not better returns than those guys. You just wont have as many coins in your collection.

  • Walkerguy21DWalkerguy21D Posts: 11,115 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You may well be right about some of these - certainly food for thought, shottaker - thanks for the insight.
    Successful BST transactions with 170 members. Recent: Tonedeaf, Shane6596, Piano1, Ikenefic, RG, PCGSPhoto, stman, Don'tTelltheWife, Boosibri, Ron1968, snowequities, VTchaser, jrt103, SurfinxHI, 78saen, bp777, FHC, RYK, JTHawaii, Opportunity, Kliao, bigtime36, skanderbeg, split37, thebigeng, acloco, Toninginthblood, OKCC, braddick, Coinflip, robcool, fastfreddie, tightbudget, DBSTrader2, nickelsciolist, relaxn, Eagle eye, soldi, silverman68, ElKevvo, sawyerjosh, Schmitz7, talkingwalnut2, konsole, sharkman987, sniocsu, comma, jesbroken, David1234, biosolar, Sullykerry, Moldnut, erwindoc, MichaelDixon, GotTheBug
  • FredFFredF Posts: 526 ✭✭✭
    My theory: For there to be another Pittman, the coin market would have to totally die and then come back, and while it was down someone would have to buy.

    However, while I wouldn't mind prices dropping a little more to help me assemble my set, I would not want the coin market to shrivel up completely.

    When I was in high-school I got into collecting stamps, it was a phase that lasted a couple years. I don't have anything of real value because I was on a high-schoolers budget, but I thought it was a cool hobby. What happened to that market? When I go back home, I stop in the coin/stamp/card shop I used to frequent back then, and it's basically a coin/coin/coin shop, with one little display case of cards and some albums of stamps on a wall gathering dust. I bet if you had deep pockets you could buy up a ton of stamps now, and then if the market ever comes back you could make a fortune. Who knows if the market will ever come back, though.

    Successful BST (me as buyer) with: Collectorcoins, PipestonePete, JasonRiffeRareCoins

  • SanctionIISanctionII Posts: 11,660 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Great replies folks. Thanks.

    I also thought of Cladlking, though who knows if modern clads will ever be a hot ticket in the hobby to result in a huge payday for him or his estate.

    I bet his collection is very nice and full of coins that make you say WOW.
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,307 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    I bet his collection is very nice and full of coins that make you say WOW. >>



    I really should have been working much more on the collection and a little less
    on high grades. The problem is that I've always had a beer budget and never
    wanted to spend a lot of money on individual coins. Now I can laugh at some of
    the deals I've passed up or not taken advantage of but someday I might be kick-
    ing myself pretty hard. For instance I offered $150 for the unique 1964 clad quar-
    ter many years ago. The owner was polite enough not to laugh at me but a more
    realistic offer just might have gotten the coin.

    I will say though that a lot of the coins (not all by a long sight) that I mention do
    exist are actually in my collection. Perhaps people today aren't impressed by a
    1981-P PL type "d" reverse clad quarter but I'll wager this will be a very impress-
    ive coin before many decades are past.

    Of course all the great opportunities now are not in modern US coins. There are
    some classics that could explode (probably will explode) in the future and there's
    a universe of other scarce and very desirable coins, tokens, and medals that can
    be bought at prices that will seem impossible in the future. The world just keeps
    getting a little smaller veryday and the line between something like 18th century
    new world silver and old US coins never was all that wide.

    I think that people will see that the internet not only will cause the world to shrink
    ever faster but it will bring that world to a larger and larger share of the population.
    Michigan lumber tokens might be a small specialty market today but what about in
    twenty years when anyone with a collector's interest in lumber, trees, Michigan, US,
    trade tokens, or any number of other specialties might all be chasing the same five
    or ten specimens. Such a token can never approach the value of an 1804 dollar but
    it's always relative. The dollar coin may triple or quaruple or even go higher yet but
    the $2 junk box token might increase many fold. Rare world coins can increase even
    more since these can be had for such nominal amounts and demand might be so much
    greater.

    Classic US coins are one of the finest collectibles in existence but one must get the
    sense that explosive price gains in most of these areas are improbable. Of course the
    future is written a day at a time and always just beginning. We don't know what will
    happen except that there's a tendency for all prognosticators to be wrong.
    Tempus fugit.
  • kruegerkrueger Posts: 799 ✭✭✭

    "think the part of that story that keeps Pittman 'working class' in our collective memory, is that it has been retold many times that he took out a second mortgage on his house to participate in the Farouk sale"

    I know a seated dime collector who did the same thing (mortgage his house) to buy a complete set of these in Au to Bu. He sold off the duplicates he already had to help pay off the loan. He was able to upgrade his collection greatly and quickly and get the very rare dates in high grade.

    I have stretched a few times to aquire collections , and sold off what I did not need also.

    Krueger

  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    SanctionII: <<If it is possible for someone today duplicate Pittman, what coin series do you think would pose the best chance of appreciating like Pittman's coins? >>

    The collector who employs the name Greensboro formed a collection of Proof coins that is very similar to that of John J. Pittman and even includes many of Pittman's coins.

    The Only Known Proof 1839 Quarter

    First Part of Greensboro Collection Sells in Dallas

    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    To simulate Pittman first you're going to need someone like him. And then you're going to need an era of tangible asset appreciation (ie inflation) that we saw from 1946 to 1996. Those economic conditions probably won't reappear until 2066-2116, if ever. The key to that 50 yr period was holding the world's reserve currency and exporting our inflation overseas. We might not ever get a 2nd chance at a period considering that our currency was the gold standard. You'd have a better chance of being part of a similar economic period in China's future for example. I'm pretty sure our 50 yrs of fame can't be repeated in the same way...and probably not for classic US coins as Pittman collected. I've heard old stock bulls say the same thing about the 1982-2013 period....there may never be another chance at an era like that.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>what coin series do you think would pose the best chance of appreciating like Pittman's coins?

    Coins from the Central American Republic. They've been in the doghouse too long. >>



    imageimageimageimageimageimage

    The Pogues' have some pretty neat stuff (ROFL), as I'm sure does Simpson, but I have a hard time imagining anyone having the comprehensive range and depth of JJP, who was quite a character. But there might be another Walter Childs or two around. Not well-known to much of the collecting community, but WOW. Out there now? I think you'd have to have likely finished before 1980.
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • GeorgeKelloggGeorgeKellogg Posts: 1,251 ✭✭


    << <i>"Like Pittman" means someone who does not have excessively deep pockets, but who has an eye for coins that would result in results similar to those arising from the Pittman's purchase of his coins [for a total expenditure of about $100,000.00 over his collecting life] and the sale of his coins after his death [for well over $20,000,000.00]. >>



    For the record, the three Pittman auctions realized over $29,500,000.
    "Clamorous for Coin"
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>for a total expenditure of about $100,000.00 over his collecting life] and the sale of his coins after his death [for well over $20,000,000.00]. >>



    I have read that Louis Eliasberg had about $450,000 in his collection, and it sold for something over $50,000,000. His collection of gold coins could have brought even more, but I heard that the family member who inherited it had some sort of a belief in astrology and forced Dave Bowers' auction firm to rust the sale to occur on a certain date.

    As for whether or not that will be another Pittman, that depends upon where the coin market goes. Remember that when Pittman was buying coins he was winning a good number in auctions where he was high bidder. At the time when he was buying he was paying the market, or perhaps more in the opinion of some. Also you must remember that when he was buying a Cadillac cost $3,500 to $4,000, and Chevy was $1,600 to $1,800. Frank Sinatra was paying $6,000 to $6,500 apiece for a custom built Cadillac or Lincoln with handmade interior work. A $100 a week job was considered to be a good wage. A steak dinner in Vegas to see "old blue eyes" cost you $4.50. I can remember ordering a t-bone steak in a restaurant in a resort area that had menun price of $3.00 when I was kid. (Yes, my parents spoiled me.)

    Yes, the prices Pittman paid, look cheap today, but you have to put them into context.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,471 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No other collectors out there like Pittman, and not likely to be any. On per capita income basis, Pittman realized a gain, albeit posthumously, on his cost that put him in a different universe. And it ain't over yet. image

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.americanlegacycoins.com

  • sniocsusniocsu Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭
    I don't think it will/can ever be done again
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    $100,000 compounded at 15% annual interest over 40 years yields about $27,000,000

    I don't see that rate of return out of the range of feasibility for some lucky and knowledgable collectors.
  • coindeucecoindeuce Posts: 13,471 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>$100,000 compounded at 15% annual interest over 40 years yields about $27,000,000

    I don't see that rate of return out of the range of feasibility for some lucky and knowledgable collectors. >>



    Speak fer yerself, lucky. image

    "Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
    http://www.americanlegacycoins.com

  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    Bcsican: <<Those days are long gone once in a lifetime chance....Pittman was one of a kind...>>

    IMO, this statement is not true.

    I am a little disappointed my post to this thread, which is a coherent answer to the original question, has been largely ignored. Pittman's collection of U.S. material is best known for pre-1858 Proof coins. While Pittman had some excellent coins in other categories, his achievements in other areas of U.S. coinage are not in the same league as his pre-1858 Proof coins.

    The collector known as Greensboro did, to a substantial extent, rival Pittman's achievements in the area of pre-1858 Proof coins, which was Pittman's strongest area. Review Greensboro's consignments to Oct. 2012, Jan. 2013 and April 2013 auctions, and there is more to come. If Greensboro had worked for a few more years on his collection, he could easily have surpassed that of Pittman, in terms of U.S. Proof coins, as he already came close. Greensboro's post-1858 Proof coins are MUCH better than those of Pittman.

    Colonel Jessup: <<I think you'd have to have likely finished before 1980.>>

    Greensboro was able to successfully collect pre-1858 Proof silver and copper coins by date in less than ten years, with many series amazingly complete, though it is impossible for any one collector to totally complete a set of pre-1858 Proof U.S. coins. A coin by coin comparison of the Pittman and Greensboro Collections of pre-1858 Proof coins would probably show that Pittman's colletion was superior, though the two are largely in the same league. In some categories, Greensboro's collection is superior to that of Pittman's.

    sniocsu <<I don't think it will/can ever be done again >>

    In terms of Proof U.S. coins, Pittman's strongest area, it was almost done during the last than ten years. So, this statement is very misleading. Besides, Greensboro has an 1804 silver dollar and had a Proof 1802 dollar; Pittman did not have either.

    The Only Known Proof 1839 Quarter

    First Part of Greensboro Collection Sells in Dallas
    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think you have missed the point - it's more about the ability to do what he did on a moderate budget and with a substantial return. The collector you have put forth had a huge budget and [so far] very little in the way of a return.
  • SanctionIISanctionII Posts: 11,660 ✭✭✭✭✭
    TDN is spot on when he mentions collecting on a modest budget (like Pittman did) and liquidating the collection for large returns.

    Though what Pittman spent during the time he assembled his collection must be viewed in relation to the cost of living then vs. today. I assume that a collector today would have to spend much more money (in straight dollar terms) to be comparable to what Pittman spent simply due to the fact that a dollar spent by Pittman has much higher purchasing power than a dollar spent today.

    Analyst is also correct. Collectors today could also assemble a collection of coins that would equal or exceed Pittman's (or other famous collections of the past). However, it is unlikely that they could assemble it with an acquisition price comparable to that of Pittman.

    Though many would view it as a case of apples and oranges, I would toss out for consideration that Cladking and/or Wondercoin would be analogous to Pittman.

    Both of them have been searching for and acquiring highest quality coins (modern clad coinage) for decades at prices that are probably quiet modest (some even at face value). So the modest budget side of the equation is present. It is yet to be seen what the return side of the equation will be when and if they ever liquidate.
  • DarrellDarrell Posts: 87 ✭✭✭
    I have one of Pittman's early proofs. He purchased it on 12/06/47 for $19. I am not sure what $19 would buy in 1947. I would like to lookup the other coins that sold for around $19 in that sale and see what they are worth today.
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Collecting may not have changed which is reflected by the overall one dimenisonal responses, but world coins within the US really has the potential to be a rediscovered art form that is different and continues by many here to be ignored... and that is fine from where I sit.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Analyst, I think you're ignoring his voluminous holdings of rare date gold and proof gold, which were as impressive in their way as early silver (all-time best?, Eliasberg better?) and copper proofs, which I'm not knocking in any way whatsoever. These a treasure trove for sureimage

    I believe his C and D mint gold was complete, perhaps his O mints too. And the few special proofs like the '38 $10 and both date Type II G$1's, and many other later gold proofs, which he preferred to ordinary P mint business strikes, and the boxed '45 and 46 sets H1c thru $10, And the two (!) '35 proof $5's and a THE 1833 $5 (67DCAM and OMG+++) and '34, '35. and '36 proof QE's and.... I bought a '20-S Saint DWA graded CH AU which graded 63 at both services and there was a piece of western territorial gold that DWA graded CH AU that graded 65 (!) and..... Many many proof $10's and 20's and.... Exceptional O mint silver, was it an 1807 10c MS67?, etc, etc,etc. If I repeated myself, I left out much more.

    So as cool as Greensboro was and still might be, let's see what else shows up.
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Collecting may not have changed which is reflected by the overall one dimenisonal responses, but world coins within the US really has the potential to be a rediscovered art form that is different and continues by many here to be ignored... and that is fine from where I sit. >>



    So check out Pittman's Specimen world coins too. And....
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Colonel:

    I know Mr. Pittman was a collector of world coins.

    Unfortunately, my point was not taken in the context it was intended- which is as follows:

    There are several world coin rarities that have values well short of what is reasonable- if it is about appreciation, world coins is the place to be mainly because many countries have been neglected for years.

    The next Pittman will make accomplishments on the world stage- not relying on U S coins. Please feel free to disagree...

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>$100,000 compounded at 15% annual interest over 40 years yields about $27,000,000

    I don't see that rate of return out of the range of feasibility for some lucky and knowledgable collectors. >>




    While anything is potentially possible, Pittman collected during the most ideal time in US history where investment in tangible assets rising against a constantly depreciating dollar
    reaped huge dividends....especially during the 1971-1990 period as the world came off the gold standard entirely. It is highly unlikely we will ever get a 2nd chance at the
    opportunity to have an unrivaled world's reserve currency backed by only confidence in the dollar bill. A collector of Pittman's importance will probably come along...they just
    won't see the same leverage he enjoyed from 1946-1996. And imagine how well he'd have done if he sold his collection in 1989-1990....rather than at the very end of a recession
    in 1996. Eliasberg did much the same thing selling his gold coins just after the wicked 1982 bottom and most everything else shortly after Pittman.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,307 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Colonel:

    I know Mr. Pittman was a collector of world coins.

    Unfortunately, my point was not taken in the context it was intended- which is as follows:

    There are several world coin rarities that have values well short of what is reasonable- if it is about appreciation, world coins is the place to be mainly because many countries have been neglected for years.

    The next Pittman will make accomplishments on the world stage- not relying on U S coins. Please feel free to disagree... >>



    I agree.

    The next Pittman might just be a collector in India, Brazil, or Timbuktu. The only thing
    stopping him will be the lack of availability of the coins. A collector in this country has a
    good shot in foreign coins as well because so many world coins migrated to the US during
    the 1850 to 1960 time period.
    Tempus fugit.
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Colonel:

    I know Mr. Pittman was a collector of world coins.

    Unfortunately, my point was not taken in the context it was intended- which is as follows:

    There are several world coin rarities that have values well short of what is reasonable- if it is about appreciation, world coins is the place to be mainly because many countries have been neglected for years.

    The next Pittman will make accomplishments on the world stage- not relying on U S coins. Please feel free to disagree... >>



    Disagree? By no means whatsoever. Don't know enough to disagree, and there is virtue in your premise.

    MrEureka has been trying to get me to come over to the DarkSide for years. I wish he wouldn't use that weird voice.
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    MrEureka is likely one of the most well rounded numismatists of our time- and that covers alot of territory

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • AnalystAnalyst Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    TDN: I think you have missed the point - it's more about the ability to do what he did on a moderate budget and with a substantial return.

    On the contrary, I think that I have an advanced understanding of Pittman's collection and the posts to this thread are mis-representing it. While I did not really know Pittman, I wrote a lot about the Pittman Collection and I interviewed people who did know him well. He was more of a collector than an investor. It was not Pittman's intention to achieve a large rate of return. Indeed, he had no intention of selling his collection while he was alive and would have preferred to never sell any of his coins. He was upset that rare U.S. coins went up so much in value during his lifetime. He would have preferred coin prices to be lower so that he could buy more coins.

    Sanction2: <<TDN is spot on when he mentions collecting on a modest budget - like Pittman did - and liquidating the collection for large returns.>>

    Please read my response to TDN above. Moreover, Pittman had no intention of liquidating his collection and he was not seeking large returns. Does Sanction2 have an understanding of Pittman or of Pittman's collection?

    Col. Jessup, sir, <<Analyst, I think you're ignoring his voluminous holdings of rare date gold and proof gold, which were as impressive in their way as early silver

    His early Proof gold, of course, is very impressive. As a later comment of his indicates, the Colonel is considering the possibility that Greensboro has an equivalent collection of Proof gold. As incredible as Pittman's Proof gold holdings were, these were not as great as his pre-1858 silver, in my opinion. As for rare date gold business strikes, Pittman had a few excellent pieces, though just a few. In my view, Pittman did not have one of the all-time best collections of rare date gold, nor did he intend to have such a collection. On occasion, he bought a rare gold business strike, though never collected these systemically. Furthermore, I said that the Greensboro Collection was equivalent to Pittman's collection in important ways, not in all ways. Moreover, the Greensboro Collection is superior in some ways. I mention again Proof 1802, 1803 and 1804 dollars, which Pittman did not have.

    Col. Jessup: <<... and copper proofs, which I'm not knocking in any way whatsoever. These a treasure trove for sure>>

    My very tentative view, which I will not put in writing at this point is that Greensboro's collection of Proof Large Cents was clearly superior to that of Pittman. Is Col. Jessup aware of the amazing set of Greensboro's Proof Large Cents that were auctioned in January 2013? Even though some may have been overgraded, it was an incredible set!


    Roadrunner: <<... the same leverage -Pittman- enjoyed from 1946-1996.>>

    This is a peculiar remark. Pittman purchased almost all of his rare U.S. coins in the late 1940s and 1950s. He did not buy many rare U.S. coins during the period from 1960 to 1996. Moreover, Pittman was not investing in the sense Roadrunner is thinking of investments. He was seeking great coins that he could afford. He was upset when prices for rare U.S. coins increased because he could not then afford to buy many more of them. He probably wanted coin prices to go down, not up.

    Roadrunner:<<.... rather than at the very end of a recession in 1996.>>

    Was 1996 really the end of a recession? Even if a recession did end in 1996, this statement is wrong, as Pittman's collection of U.S. coins was auctioned in Oct. 1997 and May 1998. Please read my articles. I often refer to the greatest collections of all time, and include facts.

    The Only Known Proof 1839 Quarter

    First Part of Greensboro Collection Sells in Dallas

    The Dazzling Collecting Journey of Dr. Steven Duckor

    "In order to understand the scarce coins that you own or see, you must learn about coins that you cannot afford." -Me
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>..Col. Jessup, sir, <<Analyst, I think you're ignoring his voluminous holdings of rare date gold and proof gold, which were as impressive in their way as early silver.

    His early Proof gold, of course, is very impressive. As a later comment of his indicates, the Colonel is considering the possibility that Greensboro has an equivalent collection of Proof gold. As incredible as Pittman's Proof gold holdings were, these were not as great as his pre-1858 silver, in my opinion. As for rare date gold business strikes, Pittman had a few excellent pieces, though just a few. >>



    I did say that JP's silver proofs were "all-time". I should have said overvaluing his silver, rather than ignoring his gold. In my conversations with JJP (and there were only a few) we talked much more about his gold. I always got the impression (pun intentional) that his gold, particularly his Southern gold, was a particular source of pride. Since his interests were very broad, he may have focused on the areas with which I was most interested. Much pleasure was displayed in describing his various strategems for beating out others with whom he was competing. Purely speculative on my part, but if you had given JJP the choice of being described as "smart" or "shrewd", while he would have been happy with the first, he would have taken a deeper pleasure in the latter.



    << <i>In my view, Pittman did not have one of the all-time best collections of rare date gold, nor did he intend to have such a collection. On occasion, he bought a rare gold business strike, though never collected these systemically. >>



    Agreed.. It was the completion of these sets that he seemed to enjoy most. Joy of the hunt, if you will. He was much more focused on branch mint issues.



    << <i> Furthermore, I said that the Greensboro Collection was equivalent to Pittman's collection in important ways, not in all ways. Moreover, the Greensboro Collection is superior in some ways. I mention again Proof 1802, 1803 and 1804 dollars, which Pittman did not have. >>



    While JJP did not have the novodels, I have more numismatic respect for his early gold proofs. Pure bias on my part.



    << <i>Col. Jessup: <<... and copper proofs, which I'm not knocking in any way whatsoever. These a treasure trove for sure>>

    My very tentative view, which I will not put in writing at this point is that Greensboro's collection of Proof Large Cents was clearly superior to that of Pittman. Is Col. Jessup aware of the amazing set of Greensboro's Proof Large Cents that were auctioned in January 2013? Even though some may have been overgraded, it was an incredible set! >>

    >>



    I personally enjoy early copper proofs. I tend to undervalue them in terms of interest because my EAC friends are so much more enthusiastic about business strikes. Also, I know less about them than silver and gold issues, so some self-fulfilling prophesy is present here. Also, they are base metal. A certain atavistic focus elsewhere must be noted. I will certainly not defend my ignorance on cupric collectables, lest BigMoose taunt me cruelly. and with great relish image

    When I started out (early 70's), EAC was long-established. More competition meant fewer opportunities The EAC guys would have had me for lunch. While I am a numismatic slut, I am also a market whore. These aspects have a reciprocal relationship. I could do more "original research" with silver and gold purchasing from auctions in the 70's and 80's without paying as much tuition.


    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>MrEureka is likely one of the most well rounded numismatists of our time- and that covers alot of territory >>



    I had dinner with Aki (and MrEureka) a couple of nights ago and mentioned this "well-rounded" observation. MrE agreed with my own observation that being well-rounded might include the need to lose a bit of the old avoirdupois. He agreed, sure, but would NOT let me have a bite of his tiramisu cake. image

    edited to add. perhaps "covers a lot of territory" was itself an allusion to this particular phenomenonimage
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • magikbillymagikbilly Posts: 6,780
    Well, heavyweight has several meanings. image

    Have a good weekend,
    Eric
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    << MrEureka is likely one of the most well rounded numismatists of our time- and that covers alot of territory >>

    I had dinner with Aki (and MrEureka) a couple of nights ago and mentioned this "well-rounded" observation. MrE agreed with my own observation that being well-rounded might include the need to lose a bit of the old avoirdupois. He agreed, sure, but would NOT let me have a bite of his tiramisu cake.

    Geeze... What would be the most politically correct way of extending a complement to a fellow numismatist? imageimage

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Aki sniffs butts image. Try to say that in a politically correct way imageimage
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell

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