Just a friendly WARNING.

SilverBaron · July 14, 2009 9:59PM

I believe that most folks on this forum are knowlable about what they buy.....

That said..... We can all be fooled if we let our guard down ....

Something that has been bothering me a lot is the WAVE of COUNTERFIET

coins and BARS that are flooding Ebay.....

Every other JM listing is a " COPY " or " REPLICA " bar.

Bring up " Bullion " ..... " Gold " and start down the listings.

Copy bars of every size and make........

I know they are sold as " paper weights " or " Replica " for fun......

BUUUUUTTTT ....... Anyone with a troy oz. of brains should wonder just how many

of these " Bars " are going to be altered and sold as the real thing???

I believe ........ A LOT!!!

I am not as conserned that fake bars will be sold as real on Ebay ... [ sort of ]....

but that these bars will be altered and start showing up in shops and at coin shows.

It only takes your getting stung once to make it one bar to many!!

Just a little something to keep in mind.

rgCoinGuy · July 14, 2009 10:57PM

I wasn't aware they were making these, thanks for the heads up.

Julio · July 14, 2009 11:12PM

I'm like coinnguy, was not aware.

Which makes me wonder on my E-Bay sales should I offer some kind of return? I never have before.

I'm thinking not, but I'm no Flea-Bay expert. My understaning is EBay takes only PP now, so the buyer has recourse. Take care, jws

MrOrganic · July 14, 2009 11:35PM

Good Timing!

I live in los angeles & a friend of mine just had a dozen or so FAKE british soveriegns come across his desk!!!!

http://goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=390931
drilled & filled englehards

goingbroke · July 14, 2009 11:43PM

It is for this reason I have NEVER bought any PMs from EBAY! I buy from AMPEX the cost is higher but I sleep better at night. When you invest $20,000 in gold and silver you cant afford to take chances!

KentuckyJ · July 14, 2009 11:54PM

Looking at some of the comments in that link, this was my first reaction, clearly remembering the ping from having previously owned a poured Englehard 100
-------------------
Lars Ragnarsson
Gold Member

Re: Proof of Engelhard 100oz Bar Tampering
I wonder how the "ping" test would work on one of those altered bars. That came up during a discussion with the drilled and filled bars. If you stand it on a dowel or a plastic dime holder, and tap it with a wooden mallet, you should get a prolonged, crisp ring if it's pure silver. The lead-filled are supposed to just "thud."

goingbroke · July 15, 2009 12:02AM

Here is a good example This person lost $10,000 buying a fake gold bar. Not from E Bay but it goes to show they are out there!Fake bar sale

jmski52 · July 15, 2009 12:17AM

a friend of mine just had a dozen or so FAKE british soveriegns come across his desk!!!!

How did he determine that they were fake? Just askin'.

dragon · July 15, 2009 12:40AM

This Ebay seller always has numerous auctions running for 'replica' Johnson Matthey gold bars:

gold bars

I don't think stuff like this should be allowed on Ebay because isn't that a trademark violation against JM as well as a counterfiet item?

Cladiator · July 15, 2009 1:06AM

Search: "Johnson Matthey -(fake, copy, replica, novelty)" and 99% of them get weeded out of the results.

goingbroke · July 15, 2009 1:10AM

At least they all have the same serial numbers!

MrOrganic · July 15, 2009 3:00AM

when the he was handling them he noticed that some of them made a diffrent sound then the other B. sovereigns. They passed an acid test but he still noticed some other tell tale signs that were not right (something about markers along the rim?). He figured they were gold but a lesser amount then legit ones. I'll ask details on those so call "markers"

cars · July 15, 2009 4:08AM

<< Here is a good example This person lost $10,000 buying a fake gold bar. Not from E Bay but it goes to show they are out there!Fake bar sale >>

Ouch. Those replicas/fakes/copies on eBay bother me as well. Won't be long before they start turning up at flea markets and such as real gold.

gecko109 · July 15, 2009 4:14AM

<< Here is a good example This person lost $10,000 buying a fake gold bar. Not from E Bay but it goes to show they are out there!Fake bar sale >>

Thats a very poor example. Its painfully obvious that the woman knew NOTHING about gold and was persuaded by pure greed as her motivation. This type of "scam" could never happen to any of us here in the PM forum who are actively involved with metals. Its less a story about fake gold bars, and more a story on human stupidity IMO.

cars · July 15, 2009 4:17AM

I've yet to see a fake that could pass as real by anyone who has held the real thing before.

gecko109 · July 15, 2009 4:24AM

<< I've yet to see a fake that could pass as real by anyone who has held the real thing before. >>

Thats exactly right. Its not like fake US coins inside fake PCGS slabs. We are talking about a metallic element with VERY defined and consistant properties. Most notably the 19.3 SG.

KentuckyJ · July 15, 2009 4:50AM

> Its less a story about fake gold bars, and more a story on human stupidity IMO.

Nailed it!

dragon · July 15, 2009 5:01AM

<< I've yet to see a fake that could pass as real by anyone who has held the real thing before. >>

You still have to be careful. I saw a group of fake 1 oz. krugerrands at a major show a few years ago that looked awfully good and could have easily fooled a lot of experienced people at first glance.

JohnTheJute · July 15, 2009 5:40AM

In the days when sovereigns were everyday currency, many shops had a sovereign balance on the counter:

Sovereign Balance

Anything that was small enough to fit in the circular space, and to pass through the slot, which was also heavy enough to tip the balance, was accepted as a sovereign. Any successful forgery would have to be made either out of 22 karat gold--which rather defeated the point of forgery--or out of a heavier alloy ... and all heavier alloys were more expensive than gold.

There was a period when platinum was cheaper than gold and successful forgeries were made out of gold-plated platinum! But these were soon more valuable than the sovereigns they copied.

Later,

John

sumrtym · July 15, 2009 2:02PM

<< At least they all have the same serial numbers! >>

Actually, that ebay auction states that they all have DIFFERENT serial numbers.

I noticed this awhile back after we talked about that little button 1 oz gold Perth mint that I thought was the neatest bar I'd ever seen. I was curious how common they were, how much they went for, etc., and doing a search on ebay for gold bar perth turned up almost all replicas.

BTW, I guess that little square one ounce poured and stamped butter bar as I call it is no longer put out at Perth. I think the guy that posted it sold it. He'll probably regret that it's not in his bank box one day.

Julio · July 15, 2009 3:29PM

"Anything that was small enough to fit in the circular space, and to pass through the slot, which was also heavy enough to tip the balance, was accepted as a sovereign. Any successful forgery would have to be made either out of 22 karat gold--which rather defeated the point of forgery--or out of a heavier alloy ... and all heavier alloys were more expensive than gold.

There was a period when platinum was cheaper than gold and successful forgeries were made out of gold-plated platinum! But these were soon more valuable than the sovereigns they copied.

Later,

John."

You seem, least to me, down to earth. I'm sure I will enjoy following your'e posts. You brought to mind a honored poster, now gone from the board.

Miss your input and knowledge Condor. You take care. jws

Placid · July 20, 2009 1:02PM

Maybe pcgs should start certifying gold/silver bars.

MoneyLA · July 20, 2009 7:41PM

I was in a local jeweler the other day who advertises he buys gold and silver coins and looked over his large assortment of morgans... and darn if he didnt have some counterfeits and he didnt even know it.

they had the correct weight but they had very high rims on coins that appeared to be very well circulated, in maybe VG condition which told me they were "cast." worn coins should not have very high and sharp rims as these "circulated coins" had.

he took a magnet to the coins and said "see the magnet doesn't stick."

"so what," I said, "theyre made of something that a magnet won't attract."

unfortunately this jeweler has no experience with coins. he even had me look over his "silver strikes" to find if any were "collectible." all were commons. then I told him each had only 0.6 ounces of silver, and it turns out he overpaid for them.

yikes.

Weather11am · July 23, 2009 2:09AM

First time I have seen the replic Credit Suisse Pd bars, such a shame:

Link on eBay

cars · July 23, 2009 4:04AM

That seller replicates everything from Dan Carr's coins to JM 1 gram-1 ounce gold bars. Apparently there is a market for them & they are making money.

Norseman88 · July 23, 2009 7:34AM

<< I've yet to see a fake that could pass as real by anyone who has held the real thing before. >>

That's because you along with most people here have handled the real thing numerous times.
Obviously this woman had never seen a Gold bar or coin up close cause if she had greed wouldn't have gotten the better of her.

Just a friendly WARNING.

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