A line of questions regarding Numismatic Ethics...
![SeaEagleCoins](https://us.v-cdn.net/6027503/uploads/authoricons/171603034_ebaygallery.jpg)
Once again, keets has inspired me... as my posts in the middle of threads tend to get overlooked and/or ignored (no whine...just an observation)... I thought the following deserved it's own thread... perhaps you might agree...if not, please excuse me and have a nice evening...
I draw no conclusion regarding the following...yet am curious to hear from fellow board members regarding this...
I'm gonna bring up some questions that have been bugging me since the "original 1901-S thread" got started...longer, actually...
For those of us who like to go to the bank and buy rolls to search for silver... now, I think we can safely assume, anyone who does this is a somewhat knowledgeable collector...and the purpose, in plain language, when someone buys and searches these rolls, is to capitalize on someone else's ignorance.
When you find a bunch of rolls filled with 40% or 90%, do you feel some kind of obligation to somehow try to find the person who turned the coins into the bank?
Are you a member of a coin club or the ANA? Do you feel an obligation to take out an ad in the local paper to try and either locate this person or educate your neighbors regarding the true value of the coins they might just turn in for face value?
Where exactly, do we draw a line?
Please don't give the knee-jerk reply of "well, the B&M is a professional operation...yada yada"... if you are ethical and especially if you are a member of the ANA, should it be OK to "take advantage" of the numismatically ignorant (people who are not educated)?
Just curious...
I draw no conclusion regarding the following...yet am curious to hear from fellow board members regarding this...
I'm gonna bring up some questions that have been bugging me since the "original 1901-S thread" got started...longer, actually...
For those of us who like to go to the bank and buy rolls to search for silver... now, I think we can safely assume, anyone who does this is a somewhat knowledgeable collector...and the purpose, in plain language, when someone buys and searches these rolls, is to capitalize on someone else's ignorance.
When you find a bunch of rolls filled with 40% or 90%, do you feel some kind of obligation to somehow try to find the person who turned the coins into the bank?
Are you a member of a coin club or the ANA? Do you feel an obligation to take out an ad in the local paper to try and either locate this person or educate your neighbors regarding the true value of the coins they might just turn in for face value?
Where exactly, do we draw a line?
Please don't give the knee-jerk reply of "well, the B&M is a professional operation...yada yada"... if you are ethical and especially if you are a member of the ANA, should it be OK to "take advantage" of the numismatically ignorant (people who are not educated)?
Just curious...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free ![image](i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif)
![image](i/expressions/face-icon-small-smile.gif)
0
Comments
Also, rightly or wrongly, human to human interactions aren't the same as human to corporation interactions.
It isn't even close and yet it tries to be related.
Common sense, and courtesy, seem to come up missing when people work way too hard to try to prove a certain point, and, regrettably, I think this one has stretched it to the lacking of common sense on this one.
Not meaning to offend, but I am one of the blunt ones.
Take the above, for instance. Someone goes to a bank and gets a roll, from a teller. Teller likely has NO idea where it comes from.
One gets home and finds silver, or something else that is cool and potentially worth more than face value.
There is no inherent knowledge there. Wouldn't have been the teller's. Bank views it as face value and isn't in the business other than that. They likely have no way to know who did it.
Now, understanding that, you are asking someone to spend the money (their own) to take out an ad, etc etc etc? Not realistic.
The Keets' thing was quite different as it should be assumed, absent anything else, that the coin belonged to the guy and he was TRUSTING the person in the BUSINESS he was dealing with to TREAT HIM RIGHT.
I know, you are a coin dealer and you will see it quite differently than I do. I can actually understand and appreciate that, which is why, in the other thread, I didn't rail on Keets. I commented on the accepted practice of the shop/owner and I stated I, personally, would do it differently.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
"...is to capitalize on someone else's ignorance"
-----
I disagree with the premise. You are not capitalizing
on someone elses ignorance, but on their apathy.
There is a difference.
Ignorance implies that they know they should be
looking for something, but don't know what exactly.
Apathy, on the other hand, implies that they just
don't care.
~
"America suffers today from too much pluribus and not enough unum.".....Arthur Schlesinger Jr.
<< <i>Do you feel an obligation to take out an ad in the local paper to try and either locate this person or educate your neighbors regarding the true value of the coins they might just turn in for face value?
Where exactly, do we draw a line? >>
_______________________ <-- right there!
1 mans 90% silver is another mans $0.25
BTW i got a 1958d quarter from of the laudry machine change dispenser over the weekend.
so...TY mr. vending machine guy!!!
Maybe they were in XF or better condition which might lead you to believe they were the product of some burglary?
Now how do you proceed?
Ask the teller if they knew or remember who brought them in?
Call local law enforcement with your suspicions?
Exactly what?
I mean, other than jump up and down screaming at the top of your lungs "I REALLY SUCK THIS TIME!"
The name is LEE!
<< <i>"...is to capitalize on someone else's ignorance"
-----
I disagree with the premise. You are not capitalizing
on someone elses ignorance, but on their apathy.
There is a difference.
Ignorance implies that they know they should be
looking for something, but don't know what exactly.
Apathy, on the other hand, implies that they just
don't care.
~ >>
I do agree with MisterBungle on this point with the exception that two MAJOR mistakes occured with the keets transaction.
1. The seller didn't know what he had
2. keets didn't know what he had
I find no fault with either mistake but do find a certain amount of apathy with the seller. Enough that he didn't even want to leave contact information.
Now I for one, am done with this one.
The name is LEE!
Now let's say it turns out to be $500 face of silver quarters we're talking about, but the nice old neighbor has no clue. All they're expecting back is $500 in bills, maybe even only $498 if say, you found 4-8 "special" coins for your "little collection."
Now then, ask yourself: do you go get $500 out of your bank account, give it to that nice old neighbor and never say another word? Or do you take them to a reputable coin shop and together, turn them into the cash these are truly worth currently? That IMO is a more accurate description of the quandry at hand.
<< <i>"...is to capitalize on someone else's ignorance"
-----
I disagree with the premise. You are not capitalizing
on someone elses ignorance, but on their apathy.
There is a difference.
Ignorance implies that they know they should be
looking for something, but don't know what exactly.
Apathy, on the other hand, implies that they just
don't care.
~ >>
Not to "pick on you" mrbungle...it is just that your response caught my eye... I find it intruiging...
I am looking at it like this...I am a member of the ANA...an organization whose primary mandate is to educate the uneducated regarding numismatics and to spread and assist the furtherence of the hobby...I would also like to think that i am morally and ethically responsible...
Now...if I go into a bank..."score" some rolls...take them home and "score" some silver...I can imagine some person who either did not care or did not know they could have sold the silver for more than face... and with a little time they might have been able to discover some rarity in their little horde...
Maybe it would be impractical to find this person (banks no longer require an acct # attached to the rolls when turning them in)... but should I simply give myself a "you suck" and then return to the bank for more, hoping for another score... or do I take my "windfall" and use it to somehow reach out to my community in order to educate them?
...and if I choose to just look out for myself... how could I possibly expect another person to do any differently?
<< <i>
<< <i>"...i
~ >>
...and if I choose to just look out for myself... how could I possibly expect another person to do any differently? >>
When was the last time you had a flat tire??
I'm not talking about a knowing deception here...such as... someone shows you an 1893-S (authentic) Morgan and you tell them it is "just a common coin worth melt"...
If I take the coin's home from the bank and search them after someone else chose not to...am I any better than the dealer who is offered a bag of 90% for melt? I took adavantage at the bank of some anonymous person who was either apathetic or ignorant... how am I on morally higher ground? How about if a dealer goes to the bank...etc etc...since he/she is a "professional", is it now different in some way?
<< <i>I just see someone turning coins into a bank and someone turning coins in at a coin dealer as two very different animals. The person going to the bank expects only face value, and that's just what they'll get. OTOH, a person going to a coin dealer is looking for advice and a fair shake, and is asking the "professional" coin dealer (because there's no professional standard to be a coin dealer, other than a business license) to let them know, what have I got here that's "spendable" and what is "worth more than face" and do I have anything "really special"? This seems very clear-cut, to me. >>
With all due respect... I would like to ask..."Are you a member of the ANA?"
<< <i> For those of us who like to go to the bank and buy rolls to search for silver... now, I think we can safely assume, anyone who does this is a somewhat knowledgeable collector...and the purpose, in plain language, when someone buys and searches these rolls, is to capitalize on someone else's ignorance. >>
People that look for coins in circulation are looking for someting other's didn't bother to look for. Other people have different interests.
<< <i> When you find a bunch of rolls filled with 40% or 90%, do you feel some kind of obligation to somehow try to find the person who turned the coins into the bank? >>
The bank can't invade a customers privacy because they deposited an old coin. There's no need for it, they don't keep records of where each coin came from. If you knew the source then should that person return it to it's source.... at some point it came from a mint.
I witnessed a woman walk into a shop with 4 common $20 Saints, she was paid half their melt value.
She didn't have to sell them, he stated a price, she handed them over.
A Redbook is cheap, and using Google is on a third grade level, no excuse.
Who finds bunches of 90% rolls in a bank? Point me to the bank
I'd like to think.... It's not where we "draw the line", but more like where we each draw our own line. If I were a dealer in a case like this, I would have felt bad afterwards realizing I had such a rare coin and I made a small windfall at a customer's expense. Furthermore, in a "reasonable-like" manner, I would have tried to locate the owner. Among other things, that's probably why I would stink at being a retail merchant. I just wouldn't feel right.
On the other hand, I can plainly see the others' point of view and I respect that. Our differences are what makes us unique.
One more point, (if not already mentioned), I think the layperson who brings coins into a professional BM expects a higher degree of integrity. Some older folks are used to trusting people. Store ownership provides more credibility than you think. This may have well been the case. Just my thoughts.
WTB: Barber Quarters XF
<< <i>Sea Eagle,
I'd like to think.... It's not where we "draw the line", but more like where we each draw our own line. If I were a dealer in a case like this, I would have felt bad afterwards realizing I had such a rare coin and I made a small windfall at a customer's expense. Furthermore, in a "reasonable-like" manner, I would have tried to locate the owner. Among other things, that's probably why I would stink at being a retail merchant. I just wouldn't feel right.
On the other hand, I can plainly see the others' point of view and I respect that. Our differences are what makes us unique.
One more point, (if not already mentioned), I think the layperson who brings coins into a professional BM expects a higher degree of integrity. Some older folks are used to trusting people. Store ownership provides more credibility than you think. This may have well been the case. Just my thoughts.
I agree totally with the higher degree of integrity...it is what makes for a good rep, a clear conscience and a successful long-term business model...
...yet in this thread I am stretching out a bit...to what level of integrity are we willing to extend ourselves on a personal level?
I was born on a Marine Base...raised by a Marine...his motto he lived by... "I never expect another to do something I would not do myself"... semper fi
My bank will take rolled up coins but you generally have to put your name or account on them. I live in a small town. People that take there coins to the bank expect face value, people taking there coins into a coin store or a coin show expect more than face and a somewhat trusting proffessional to deal with.
I go to a lot of local shows and to here the actual coin dealers gossip about each other and get the skinny is very interesting. Getting a good rip is done from time to time to various degress but most do not go out of there way to tell everyone. I would not want to be on a small coin show curcuit with dealers that thought of me as a crook. Around here dealers will tell people who to stay away from at shows.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
In the area I reside almost all rolled coins are processed through the banking system, the banks here do not accept rolled coins, unless the machine counter in the lobbies are out of service, which is very infrequent. Hence there is little to no chance of receiving a roll of coins from a household.
To some extant a good "find" from a roll is similar to finding a five, ten, twenty dollar bill blowing along side a deserted roadway, this happened a few times at my prior residence. No reasonable hope of finding the original owner, although if one asked around there would be no shortage of people claiming to be the person losing said money.
Its been years since I've seen a roll with any possible identifiers of prior ownership on it. Not a situation I find myself in, and most likely as the years go by will be the case in more sections of the country.
<< <i>First of all, one should educate themselves on what they have, before entering a coin shop. >>
Is this necessary if she is dealing with an honest numismatic professional? We know that many coin dealers are crooks but members of the non-collecting community don't know this which is unfortunate.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Of course it is, one must arm themselves with info. I don't trust anyone.
I want to know for myself. Been in to many shops where the customer got bent over, big time.
To each his own, vigilance is crucial.
Scott
<< <i>You have some very good points, especially if one of those quarter rolls actually had an 01-S in it along with some other Barber quarters.
Maybe they were in XF or better condition which might lead you to believe they were the product of some burglary?
Now how do you proceed?
Ask the teller if they knew or remember who brought them in?
Call local law enforcement with your suspicions?
Exactly what?
I mean, other than jump up and down screaming at the top of your lungs "I REALLY SUCK THIS TIME!" >>
HMMMM call the local fuzz and have them possibly impound your coins? NO THANKS.. If you eventually get them back they may not be in the same condition as they were when impounded.
Unless one happens to be there when the rolls are brought in, as a rule most banks don't reissue customer wrapped rolls of coins so you may not know who really owned the coins.
<< <i>
<< <i>I just see someone turning coins into a bank and someone turning coins in at a coin dealer as two very different animals. The person going to the bank expects only face value, and that's just what they'll get. OTOH, a person going to a coin dealer is looking for advice and a fair shake, and is asking the "professional" coin dealer (because there's no professional standard to be a coin dealer, other than a business license) to let them know, what have I got here that's "spendable" and what is "worth more than face" and do I have anything "really special"? This seems very clear-cut, to me. >>
With all due respect... I would like to ask..."Are you a member of the ANA?" >>
What does being a member of the ANA have to do with it? I believe that by joining the ANA that you agree not to knowingly lie, cheat or otherwise take advantage of someone less knowledgeable than yourself for either financial or other personal gain. I don't believe that joining the ANA requires you to play detective to find the owner/s of a random roll of coins obtained from a bank. If I was to find some highly unusual coins in a bank roll, I'd hang onto them in case they turned out to be stolen. I'd maybe do some discreet inquiring around town, but I wouldn't tote em down to the local cop shop and turn em in.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I just see someone turning coins into a bank and someone turning coins in at a coin dealer as two very different animals. The person going to the bank expects only face value, and that's just what they'll get. OTOH, a person going to a coin dealer is looking for advice and a fair shake, and is asking the "professional" coin dealer (because there's no professional standard to be a coin dealer, other than a business license) to let them know, what have I got here that's "spendable" and what is "worth more than face" and do I have anything "really special"? This seems very clear-cut, to me. >>
With all due respect... I would like to ask..."Are you a member of the ANA?" >>
What does being a member of the ANA have to do with it? I believe that by joining the ANA that you agree not to knowingly lie, cheat or otherwise take advantage of someone less knowledgeable than yourself for either financial or other personal gain. I don't believe that joining the ANA requires you to play detective to find the owner/s of a random roll of coins obtained from a bank. If I was to find some highly unusual coins in a bank roll, I'd hang onto them in case they turned out to be stolen. I'd maybe do some discreet inquiring around town, but I wouldn't tote em down to the local cop shop and turn em in. >>
No...we are not required to play detective...which is, I suppose, part of my loosely knit point...
However...it is my understanding that the primary mandate/purpose of the ANA is to educate and "spread the word" so to speak...to expand the hobby and enhance people's knowledge...
Now, for those of us who feel a moral obligation to hound other collectors and dealers "to do the right thing"... and feel it is reprehensible to take advantage of the unaware (which I agree with...it is wrong)... if we wish to "practice what we preach" in all our affairs... would the prudent and ethical thing to do with our knowledge is "share it" with the uneducated?
I am not saying we should or should not... yet it sometimes seems like hypocricy to expect others to abide by moral/ethical standards we feel do not apply to us. What if we were to take all the "bounty" from our roll searhes to go out and fund educational programs to enhance the mission of the ANA?...
Of course, we live in a capitalistic society... and business is business... and knowledge is power... yada yada yada... Not all of us belong to the ANA or give a hoot about fairness... I get that... yet we still want to talk about ethics and fairness and doing the right thing...
I'm just not sure that we have a solid ground to stand on if we insist on telling others what they should do "in order to do the right thing"...when we ourselves are unwilling to take the same responsibility in our own personal lives...
As a knowledgeable collector...one has the knowledge of value... and can choose to use that knowledge to their own advantage... or perhaps to educate people ... share that knowledge... Same for a knowledgeable dealer... what makes us any different besides a business license?
In other words... maybe we need to "walk the walk" or quit "talking the talk"... if it is OK for some to use their knowledge and experience to "win" in the marketplace... is it not OK for certain others?
As I posed the question early on in this thread... where do we draw the proverbial line? Is it while searching for vams or other varieties? Or potential crack out/upgrades? Does a business licence alone disallow a person from using their knowledge and experience to their own advantage?
There appears to be a large number of folks on this forum who seem to "have a handle" on morality and ethics... and I am seeking to find out if there is actual definition to this... or is it a relative thing...subject to the moment and the whims of each of us?
Yes...we will probably all agree, that telling someone who shows us a rarity...and we tell them it is fake (when it is not) or that they are mistaken and offer them melt... that this is likely outright fraud and certainly unethical... but at what point do we cross the line into "anthing goes/knowledge is king" land?
...and believe it or not...I am talking to myself as well as the forum...I am far from perfect...I make mistakes...and I experience doubt...I try to do the right thing in all my affairs... yet sometimes the line between "right and wrong" can appear squiggly (sp?), to say the least...
If you say "the seller should have researched what they had..", then you are saying it's okay to rip off anyone who doesn't know what they have (the general public). If you don't see the difference between a "few change purses" and a few hundred dollars in "junk" silver, you are blind! I could go on, but I'm really getting tired of people trying to "sugar coat" the various ways dealers might "accidentally" cheat the unaware.
I did not, and do not, want to judge the individual who brought this discussion to the forum, but I will say this:
Truthfully, how many might change their "it's okay" opinion, if the same thing happened to have been done by a new person on the forum?
Another question: If a person were adament about not leaving ANY contact information, would it maybe cause you to wonder if you may be buying stolen goods?
Maybe I'm just cynical, maybe I'm just honest, maybe I just can't look the other way, but I have to say that I really don't think a lot of you are posting your TRUE opinions, I think you're making excuses. Think "little old widow", instead of the older man, does thet kickstart your ethics?
Feel free to slam me all you want, but this whole thing is getting old, and everyone on this board knows how they really feel, as evidenced by the many threads and polls of the past pertaining to basically the same situation.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I just see someone turning coins into a bank and someone turning coins in at a coin dealer as two very different animals. The person going to the bank expects only face value, and that's just what they'll get. OTOH, a person going to a coin dealer is looking for advice and a fair shake, and is asking the "professional" coin dealer (because there's no professional standard to be a coin dealer, other than a business license) to let them know, what have I got here that's "spendable" and what is "worth more than face" and do I have anything "really special"? This seems very clear-cut, to me. >>
With all due respect... I would like to ask..."Are you a member of the ANA?" >>
What does being a member of the ANA have to do with it? I believe that by joining the ANA that you agree not to knowingly lie, cheat or otherwise take advantage of someone less knowledgeable than yourself for either financial or other personal gain. I don't believe that joining the ANA requires you to play detective to find the owner/s of a random roll of coins obtained from a bank. If I was to find some highly unusual coins in a bank roll, I'd hang onto them in case they turned out to be stolen. I'd maybe do some discreet inquiring around town, but I wouldn't tote em down to the local cop shop and turn em in. >>
No...we are not required to play detective...which is, I suppose, part of my loosely knit point...
However...it is my understanding that the primary mandate/purpose of the ANA is to educate and "spread the word" so to speak...to expand the hobby and enhance people's knowledge...
Now, for those of us who feel a moral obligation to hound other collectors and dealers "to do the right thing"... and feel it is reprehensible to take advantage of the unaware (which I agree with...it is wrong)... if we wish to "practice what we preach" in all our affairs... would the prudent and ethical thing to do with our knowledge is "share it" with the uneducated?
I am not saying we should or should not... yet it sometimes seems like hypocricy to expect others to abide by moral/ethical standards we feel do not apply to us. What if we were to take all the "bounty" from our roll searhes to go out and fund educational programs to enhance the mission of the ANA?...
Of course, we live in a capitalistic society... and business is business... and knowledge is power... yada yada yada... Not all of us belong to the ANA or give a hoot about fairness... I get that... yet we still want to talk about ethics and fairness and doing the right thing...
I'm just not sure that we have a solid ground to stand on if we insist on telling others what they should do "in order to do the right thing"...when we ourselves are unwilling to take the same responsibility in our own personal lives...
As a knowledgeable collector...one has the knowledge of value... and can choose to use that knowledge to their own advantage... or perhaps to educate people ... share that knowledge... Same for a knowledgeable dealer... what makes us any different besides a business license?
In other words... maybe we need to "walk the walk" or quit "talking the talk"... if it is OK for some to use their knowledge and experience to "win" in the marketplace... is it not OK for certain others?
As I posed the question early on in this thread... where do we draw the proverbial line? Is it while searching for vams or other varieties? Or potential crack out/upgrades? Does a business licence alone disallow a person from using their knowledge and experience to their own advantage?
There appears to be a large number of folks on this forum who seem to "have a handle" on morality and ethics... and I am seeking to find out if there is actual definition to this... or is it a relative thing...subject to the moment and the whims of each of us?
Yes...we will probably all agree, that telling someone who shows us a rarity...and we tell them it is fake (when it is not) or that they are mistaken and offer them melt... that this is likely outright fraud and certainly unethical... but at what point do we cross the line into "anthing goes/knowledge is king" land?
...and believe it or not...I am talking to myself as well as the forum...I am far from perfect...I make mistakes...and I experience doubt...I try to do the right thing in all my affairs... yet sometimes the line between "right and wrong" can appear squiggly (sp?), to say the least... >>
How many here "talk the talk" but don't "walk the walk"?. To educate one might do it as circumstances/arise or permit. If a friend/coworker asks your advice/opinion about smoe old coins be forthright and honest with him. However I wouldn't stop a stranger on the street and start preaching to him/her/it about Morgan dollars.
For example I came across three original rolls of 1960-D half dollars that was part of junk silver deal. The rolls had probably never been cracked since 1960. The price structure for these is coin is such that the bid goes from $7 in MS-63 to $155 in MS-65. I went though all 60 coins. There was not a single 65 in the whole lot despite the fact that they were all Mint State. In fact there was only one coin that graded close to MS-64. The rest were all 61s and 62s. I sold the one coin for a small numismatic premium. The rest sold for junk silver.
My point is that are limits as how far one needs to bend over backwards for someone who won't make the efftort to educate themselves or do any work. And there is also downside to being what some think is totally "honest." I've had instances were a person would show up with a better coin or token and and didn't know it. At the beginning this person was ready to sell the item to me at a low price. After I pointed out that it was better and offered them a fair pirce, they said, "Well I guess I'll shop it around." End of story. They would not sell it to me.
There is a fine line between totally honest and screwing yourself. I don't have a lot sympathy for those who a too lazy to do any homework. I also don't have much use for those who are lazy and greedy and who use your knowledge and honesty against you. If you think that line of reasoning is unethical, then you are a saint.
<< <i>Quite a number of us have spent a long time studying coins, learning how to grade them and remembering some date and mint mark combinations that worth more. Should there not be a reward for that knowledge and the time and effort it takes to acquire it? It also takes a long time to go through rolls to search out the coins that are better. Some dates are fairly expensive in one grade, but don't amount to much in another.
For example I came across three original rolls of 1960-D half dollars that was part of junk silver deal. The rolls had probably never been cracked since 1960. The price structure for these is coin is such that the bid goes from $7 in MS-63 to $155 in MS-65. I went though all 60 coins. There was not a single 65 in the whole lot despite the fact that they were all Mint State. In fact there was only one coin that graded close to MS-64. The rest were all 61s and 62s. I sold the one coin for a small numismatic premium. The rest sold for junk silver.
My point is that are limits as how far one needs to bend over backwards for someone who won't make the efftort to educate themselves or do any work. And there is also downside to being what some think is totally "honest." I've had instances were a person would show up with a better coin or token and and didn't know it. At the beginning this person was ready to sell the item to me at a low price. After I pointed out that it was better and offered them a fair pirce, they said, "Well I guess I'll shop it around." End of story. They would not sell it to me.
There is a fine line between totally honest and screwing yourself. I don't have a lot sympathy for those who a too lazy to do any homework. I also don't have much use for those who are lazy and greedy and who use your knowledge and honesty against you. If you think that line of reasoning is unethical, then you are a saint. >>
Bill, doggone it, I just may be a saint! I could not take advantage of a little old lady who was "too lazy" to educate herself, nor would I take advantage of an average guy who was "too lazy" to educate hinself! I've had average people ask me about their "old coins", and I was ALWAYS honest with them. I really don't think you meant that you would knowingly rip someone, just because they were not experienced collectors, or they did not research the coins they were selling. I think there is a distinct difference between honesty and sainthood....
Years ago I purchased a raw 1877 Indian cent from a person at coin show. We both agreed that the coin graded EF-45, and I paid him strong Gray Sheet EF money for it. I sent the coin to NGC for grading (which cost me additional money) and it came back as an AU-58, which I thought was an over grade. I sold the coin to a custmer for AU-50 money.
Now in your world should I have gone back to the original seller and given him the "excess profits?" What if I'd sent the coin in and it had come back as VF-30? Should the seller be ready to give part of what I paid him back to me?
<< <i>OK, here's another one for you.
Years ago I purchased a raw 1877 Indian cent from a person at coin show. We both agreed that the coin graded EF-45, and I paid him strong Gray Sheet EF money for it. I sent the coin to NGC for grading (which cost me additional money) and it came back as an AU-58, which I thought was an over grade. I sold the coin to a custmer for AU-50 money.
Now in your world should I have gone back to the original seller and given him the "excess profits?" What if I'd sent the coin in and it had come back as VF-30? Should the seller be ready to give part of what I paid him back to me? >>
Totally different than buying from an Old man without knowledge, He comes to you trusting you will pay him a fair price.
If you had paid the person 100.00 for that 1877 you'd have been taking advantage of him. You paid a fair price agreed on.
Not 2.00 for a 5k coin, Nuff said
<< <i>OK, here's another one for you.
Years ago I purchased a raw 1877 Indian cent from a person at coin show. We both agreed that the coin graded EF-45, and I paid him strong Gray Sheet EF money for it. I sent the coin to NGC for grading (which cost me additional money) and it came back as an AU-58, which I thought was an over grade. I sold the coin to a custmer for AU-50 money.
Now in your world should I have gone back to the original seller and given him the "excess profits?" What if I'd sent the coin in and it had come back as VF-30? Should the seller be ready to give part of what I paid him back to me? >>
I can't respond any better than Smittys did....
<< <i>Agree with Smitty's response too. Worrying about the finer points of hitting a certain grade, etc. doesn't affect the terms of a deal after a fair deal has been made. Quite a different animal than silver value for a $5000 quarter. And, I notice, seaeaglecoins never did bother to respond to me with anything other than a question as to my ANA membership.
If one wasn't honest to a fault like Edith Bunker BEFORE joining the ANA they probably won't be AFTER joining either.
<< <i>
<< <i>Agree with Smitty's response too. Worrying about the finer points of hitting a certain grade, etc. doesn't affect the terms of a deal after a fair deal has been made. Quite a different animal than silver value for a $5000 quarter. And, I notice, seaeaglecoins never did bother to respond to me with anything other than a question as to my ANA membership.
If one wasn't honest to a fault like Edith Bunker BEFORE joining the ANA they probably won't be AFTER joining either.
Hi folks... been a bit busy...I am at work and now on lunch break...
While the infamous 1901-S 25c may have inspired my recent threads and the questions I am pondering in this one...please know that I attempt to treat everyone I trade with in an honest, upfront manner. For the most part, I think I succeed. I had no stake in that situation...and since I was not there...I can not say what really went down.
The issue that "got under my skin" and got me to thinking... was the rather superior manner in which certain people "got on their high horse" with judgements, accusations and what they thought the dealer(employee) in question should do to remedy the horrible wrong they perceived had occured. Maybe something does need to be done...and some good ideas were put out by posters to the other thread... yet that is not the reason I posted this thread...
The primary question I have is this... are we(or some of us) saying that a person with a business liscence and a tax ID (where applicable) is obligated to live up to a certain ethical standard that we "collectors" feel we are somehow exempt from? We revel in our "rips"... we post "Whoo Hoo" and give each other "you sucks"... and feel no remorse when our knowledge trumps anothers lack of knowledge... yet when we hear of a dealer "making a score"...the posse is formed and the wrath of the forum is upon them... but when a vammer finds an obscure vam not recognized by the "evil" hotdog eating dealer... we say "Good for you...the dealer should know better"...
Sorry...maybe I'm an idealist...maybe I should just shut up and go about my business and not concern myself with the actions of others (except when those actions have a direct effect on me)...
I guess I am just curious as to what the thinking process is amongst those who post here and feel they are in a position to judge another... and whether these folks feel any responsibilty to live up to the same code of ethics that they insist another live up to...
I will continue to do my part to help others and be fair in all my dealings... and hope that all your experiences are positive...
There was no intent here to "get personal"... just tossing around thoughts... it is called "communication"... I did not make any declarations...simply raised some questions... sorry if I ruffled any feathers...
Whatever.
Anyone who says they haven't tried to get an advantage through someone's apathy, ignorance or misfortune in life is lying anyway.
It happens all the time in all walks of life.
That doesn't make it right or fair, but it happens.
Deal with it.
Everyone else does...
"Bongo hurtles along the rain soaked highway of life on underinflated bald retread tires."
~Wayne
One recent case involved paying 30c on the dollar for several very rare coins worth approx $100K as a group (wholesale). The senior citizen owner knew they were "valuable" but not really sure as to how valuable. But it was unethical no matter how you cut it. The coins had been passed down in the family for over 70 years. Their value even increased over the past several years to about $140K.
The more valuable the coin, the more likely the above is going to happen. Another shop I know of doesn't like to pay over $500-$1000 for any one item because "it's just too much money." So if you walk in there with an XF bust dollar, odds are you won't get much more than $500 for it. I wish reality were different, but it's not.
But the irony of the above is that if you are an honest buyer and inform the seller than they a group of coins worth $100K (and you'll pay $80K), the odds of them walking out to compare offers is very high. More than likely someone else will beat your number and you will lose out. The chances of buying such a group at $30K or less is far higher than buying them at $80K. The bearer of "good" news is usually not going to end up the buyer. A friend of mine did some research on a territorial gold coin (possibly fake) for a seller who thought at best the item was worth a few hundred bucks. When my friend informed the potential seller that it was indeed real and worth $20,000 they walked with the coin, never to be seen again.
It seems someone loses each way.
roadrunner
After wiping the coffee off my computer screen, I realized this isn't funny. A lot of collectors, especially the elderly, mistakenly believe this. Unfortunately, anyone who believes that ANA members are more honest than anyone else is bound to be ripped off eventually.
Ever notice how shysters who pay demented old ladies $200 for their double eagles tend to show off their coin club memberships more prominently than everyone else? Club memberships can be used as tools to lure in people who mistakenly assume the clubs have strict membership standards (the PNG is a notable exception). Really, paying a few bucks is the only objective requirement for becoming a member of the ANA and most other coin clubs.
To weigh in on the ethics debate, for me, taking advantage of people with diminished capacity is crossing "the line." For everyone else, as long as a deal is made without fraud or artifice, caveat emptor / venditor. If the old man with the $5K quarter had the mental power and sense of sight to be able to crack open a Redbook at the library, but instead of doing that, decided to sell his coins for silver value because he wanted a fast transaction, he should live by the bargain he made. He's allowed to be an idiot, and the dealer who bought the coin is allowed to get his hands dirty looking at 10,000 slick Barber quarters before finding a once-in-a-lifetime gem. Perhaps if more people hear stories like this, they'll avoid selling their own treasures for a song. If I sell a rare variety for type money because I'm too lazy to look it up, c'est la vie. Do we expect the guy who bought the strawberry-leaf large cent to return his spoils to his cherrypickee? Hell no!
<< <i>"What does being a member of the ANA have to do with it? I believe that by joining the ANA that you agree not to knowingly lie, cheat or otherwise take advantage of someone less knowledgeable than yourself for either financial or other personal gain."
After wiping the coffee off my computer screen, I realized this isn't funny. A lot of collectors, especially the elderly, mistakenly believe this. Unfortunately, anyone who believes that ANA members are more honest than anyone else is bound to be ripped off eventually.
Ever notice how shysters who pay demented old ladies $200 for their double eagles tend to show off their coin club memberships more prominently than everyone else? Club memberships can be used as tools to lure in people who mistakenly assume the clubs have strict membership standards (the PNG is a notable exception). Really, paying a few bucks is the only objective requirement for becoming a member of the ANA and most other coin clubs. >>
The point is that by becoming an ANA member that you agree to abide by their terms of membership. If yer dishonest before you join, you'll be dishonest after as well. Same for eBay. How many accept the terms of membership in eBay simply because the registration system won't let you proceed if you don't accept?