I'm going to start a grading company and sell and grade my own stuff. All of my legit stuff I'll send to PSA. If it comes back trimmed or whatever, I'll grade it a 9 myself. I'll go out on a limb and say I will grade more accurate than PRO and Beckett. ----I'm kidding on all of this.
Is the original consignor(board member) selling the item on ebay or is it Mastro or the person who won the item from Mastro? If it is Mastro or the the new owner, that would be terrible.
Not sure what is so confusing. Mastro extended credit to certain high rollers. Thereby allowing them an uneven playing field. Mastro then would ship said items before they were paid for. It is also being said that mastro shilled the auctions. The high roller types would then re sell the items (hopefully at a profit) and then pay mastro. The economy tanked, some high rollers could not repay, mastro then found itself in a bind and could not pay the original consigners. To get the heat off of them they then started publicly announcing who owed them money in a lame attempt at trying to put the blame on said high rollers. A separate situation developed when one of those high rollers was named and he happens to own SGC.
Because he was named all sorts of sordid accusations are flying, does he get better grades etc.
That IMO and it is only my opinion of what I have read and heard went down.
<< <i> The link to the card on Ebay. Stolen goods are stolen goods regardless if they are on Ebay or in a card shop. >>
But it's not stolen. Guy is winning bidder on auction from auction house. Pays auction house. Lists the card on Ebay to sell after it is in his possession. Auction house does not remit those funds to the consignor of the card. Thus, there is not explicit theft involved. The auction house has failed in its contractual obligation to pay the consignor for his consignment. But there is not "stolen" property involved here.
I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
<< <i> The link to the card on Ebay. Stolen goods are stolen goods regardless if they are on Ebay or in a card shop. >>
But it's not stolen. Guy is winning bidder on auction from auction house. Pays auction house. Lists the card on Ebay to sell after it is in his possession. Auction house does not remit those funds to the consignor of the card. Thus, there is not explicit theft involved. The auction house has failed in its contractual obligation to pay the consignor for his consignment. But there is not "stolen" property involved here. >>
I think that might be wrong. It stinks for the guy that has bought stolen property but that is what he did.
<< <i> The link to the card on Ebay. Stolen goods are stolen goods regardless if they are on Ebay or in a card shop. >>
But it's not stolen. Guy is winning bidder on auction from auction house. Pays auction house. Lists the card on Ebay to sell after it is in his possession. Auction house does not remit those funds to the consignor of the card. Thus, there is not explicit theft involved. The auction house has failed in its contractual obligation to pay the consignor for his consignment. But there is not "stolen" property involved here. >>
However, if the purchaser from the auction house is now disputing the validity of the sale (i.e. the purchase price due to shill bidding), he certainly can't lay claim to having clean title to the property. Secondly, the BK court might look at the shipment of the assets as fraudulent conveyance. If I was a consignor that has now found myself as an unwitting creditor, I'd certainly have my attorney try to promote this angle with the BK judge. Finally, if it is important to the purchaser to maintain their credibility, given their status in industry, they should just return the merchandise.
Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all "right-thinking" people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.
<< <i>However, if the purchaser from the auction house is now disputing the validity of the sale (i.e. the purchase price due to shill bidding), he certainly can't lay claim to having clean title to the property. >>
Regarding this particular item, the purchase from the auction house is not disputing the validity of the sale. It seems as if you are confusing issues. Regarding this item, the purchaser was not Dave Forman.
I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
<< <i> I think that might be wrong. It stinks for the guy that has bought stolen property but that is what he did. >>
John -- how is it "stolen property"? The auction house was an intermediary, and the consignor willingly entered into a contractual arrangement with the auction house. Now, the auction house absolutely, definitively has not lived up to its commitments under the contract. But that in and of itself does not make the consigned goods "stolen". Theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's consent. The consignor entered into a contractual arrangement [which was not honored] and provided the goods to the auction house. This is not stolen property.
I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
People are entitled to their own opinion, but I don't think that a TPG owner/exec/authenticator should be building up personal debt with large submitters of any kind. If I owned a grading company, anyone who became entangled in any such relationship with a dealer/auction house would immediately be fired, and that would be stated up front. Collecting is one thing, accepting several hundred grand in extended credit from dealers is something else. I don't care who you are or how noble your intentions, when you start building up large debts like that, your likelihood of becoming compromised increases substantially. Anyone who doubts that can google the words campaign finance reform. This is especially true in an industry where "favors" are difficult to prove and can be seemingly harmless (ie. who would really know if we bumped that 9 up to a 10).
I can only imagine the outrage if it were announced that Joe Orlando had gotten a 400k loan from Gary Moser. Well, really, what's the difference here? I'm not saying he's done any favors for Mastro...it doesn't sound like he has...but he still shouldn't be putting himself in that position. Also, in a copycat industry, I have to wonder if any other auction houses have also extended credit to big spenders and who they've extended it to.
As far as authenticators collecting, I don't have a problem with that...to an extent. I definitely wouldn't want an authenticator to be big in the registry. Or, to put it differently, if I'm submitting a would-be Mint 9 pop 2, I sure as heck don't want it graded by the guy who owns the first one.
<< <i> I think that might be wrong. It stinks for the guy that has bought stolen property but that is what he did. >>
John -- how is it "stolen property"? The auction house was an intermediary, and the consignor willingly entered into a contractual arrangement with the auction house. Now, the auction house absolutely, definitively has not lived up to its commitments under the contract. But that in and of itself does not make the consigned goods "stolen". Theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's consent. The consignor entered into a contractual arrangement [which was not honored] and provided the goods to the auction house. This is not stolen property. >>
I am no lawyer so I can't tell you the legal terms but seems to me if I consigned a card to Mastro and never got paid for it and it shows up on Ebay I am definitly contacting the local authorities. To me its stolen property, to you its not. Thats why we have courts.
"Stolen" may be a harsh word, but illegally in posession may be a little closer to the truth.
In this instance, the current "owner" legally bought the item from the consignor, but since the consignor did not legally complete the contract with the original owner, he was not in the position to enter into a legal contract with anyone else on the said item. Though not similar, if someone walked into my house and stole a $500 item and then resold it on ebay to someone, that person, though they legally "Bought" the item, might still be responsible for the replacement of the item and have to refund any monies received through the sale.
Again, I am no lawyer, I just play one on TV. But I am sure someone with legal experience might give an idea to what recourse the original owner has and what responsibility, if any, the new owner/seller has as well.
<< <i>People are entitled to their own opinion, but I don't think that a TPG owner/exec/authenticator should be building up personal debt with large submitters of any kind. If I owned a grading company, anyone who became entangled in any such relationship with a dealer/auction house would immediately be fired, and that would be stated up front. Collecting is one thing, accepting several hundred grand in extended credit from dealers is something else. I don't care who you are or how noble your intentions, when you start building up large debts like that, your likelihood of becoming compromised increases substantially. Anyone who doubts that can google the words campaign finance reform. This is especially true in an industry where "favors" are difficult to prove and can be seemingly harmless (ie. who would really know if we bumped that 9 up to a 10).
I can only imagine the outrage if it were announced that Joe Orlando had gotten a 400k loan from Gary Moser. Well, really, what's the difference here? I'm not saying he's done any favors for Mastro...it doesn't sound like he has...but he still shouldn't be putting himself in that position. Also, in a copycat industry, I have to wonder if any other auction houses have also extended credit to big spenders and who they've extended it to.
As far as authenticators collecting, I don't have a problem with that...to an extent. I definitely wouldn't want an authenticator to be big in the registry. Or, to put it differently, if I'm submitting a would-be Mint 9 pop 2, I sure as heck don't want it graded by the guy who owns the first one. >>
Ideally that would be the world I would like to live in, but how is this any different than PSA/BGS/SGC dealing with high volume submitters? If one submitter is responsible for 10%-20% of my business, wouldn't that put me in the same situation? I would do anything to keep them happy short of crime. What's a half grade among friends?
<< <i>Am I reading this right? Foreman gave Mastro baseball cards to auction off at a later date but instead sold them earlier. I have no problem with him buying comic books but do kind of have a problem with him selling cards. >>
Sure can understand that John - Hager of ASA sure thought it was OK - and if anyone has seen some his product - it might cause ya to run screamin' into the night.
Just like I remember when Beckett said their ONLY mission was to provide the public with "up-to-date" prices on cards.
They say - in business - if ya don't adapt - ya perish? Maybe it would be better to perish - if it means having trouble sleeping at night.
In theory, a grading company owner/employee could sell cards and be on the up and up. But, theory is just that....theory.
It is pretty common here for folks to say, "Let the buyer beware."
In dealing with auction houses, it might be good to say, "Let the consignor beware."
The last mistake of the consignors in the current drama was in their failing to file suit IMMEDIATELY when the contracted deadline for payment passed.
But, the instant stuation got totally out of hand, in part, as a direct result of consignors failing to understand and assure their legal rights PRIOR to entering into the boilerplate agreements - the contracts - provided by most auction houses.
While many of those contracts provide the basis for a Defendant auctioneer to argue he had the "authority" to extend credit to third-parties in efforts to complete the contract, ONLY a VERY trusting/foolish consignor would accept such an agreement.
In virtually all jurisdictions:
"The auctioneer has an obligation to its sellers to collect funds from buyers and to take reasonable precautions in that process. For a seller, there is no successful sale unless he gets paid. The terms and conditions of payments to sellers and payments by buyers need to be established in advance of the sale. A seller has a right to rely on the auction house to not deliver the auctioned goods without proper payment."
"In law, misappropriation is the intentional, illegal use of the property or funds of another person for one's own use or other unauthorized purpose........by any person with a responsibility to care for and protect another's assets (a fiduciary duty). It is a felony, a crime punishable by a prison sentence."
........
Misappropriation does not occur in instances where the capital was obtained for a service rendered. (It is prudent for Plaintiff's lawyers to separately allege that Defendant auction houses either had only a slight money interest and/or that such interest was or should be forfeited for breach via negligence/fraud.)
A Defendant auction house, obviously, is free to claim that its money interest in a consigned item conferred a right to attempt collection via credit extension. If the contract states otherwise, the claim will fail. Commissions are due upon "sale;" there is no sale, from the Plaintiff consignor's view, until the funds are collected and disbursed.
Consignors give a conditional money interest in consigned property, to the auction house in the form of a commission. Allowing the consignee to ship that merch without having first collected FULL payment is NEVER in the interest of the consignor. The consignee has a tiny percentage interest at risk, while the consignor risks a large loss when the buyer/borrower fails to pay.
Boilerplate lingo allowing such extensions of credit can be X-ed out of contracts, prior to execution. If your consignee balks, run away FAST.
//////////
The elements of a constructive fraud claim are proof of circumstances “'(1) which created the relation of trust and confidence [the “fiduciary” relationship], and (2) [which] led up to and surrounded the consummation of the transaction in which defendant is alleged to have taken advantage of his position of trust to the hurt of plaintiff.'” Put simply, a plaintiff mustshow (1) the existence of a fiduciary duty, and (2) a breach of that duty.
/////////////////
Fiduciary Relationship - An agency relationship is different from many other forms of contract law. It produces a fiduciary or trust relationship. Such a relationship places additional responsibilities on the parties. The agent is expected to act in good faith on behalf of the principal, and must put the welfare of the principal ahead of his/her own interests or those of any other parties.
Operating in a reckless, careless, and excessively negligent manner may result in a charge of CULPABLE NEGLIGENCE which is a form of fraud. An auctioneer must act in a reasonable and prudent manner.
//////////////////
UCC Discussion:
"The last provision of Section 2-328 relates to bids by sellers and addresses a very difficult problem that reflects the concern of the authors of the code about the long standing practice of placing individuals in the audience whose sole purpose is to run up the bids to generate a higher price for the seller. These persons are sometimes called shills.
The code clearly states that the opportunity for the seller to bid at the sale must be announced to the class of persons identified as bidders. If a successful bidder discovers during or after the sale that the seller had been bidding, this gives rise to the successful bidder’s requiring that the price of the goods be established at the last bona fide bid made before the seller’s.
Also in the case of undisclosed seller bidding, the successful bidder has a right to rescind the sale as if it had never taken place, to be relieved of any obligation of payment, or to be entitled to a refund. The only obligation, of course, would be to return the goods to the auctioneer or to the seller, depending on who was at fault - seller or auctioneer - in not making the necessary disclosures."
////////////////////////////////////
I have not read the complaint filed by the auction house, or the answer/counterclaim apparently filed by the SGC fellow who alleged "shilling."
I have also not read the relevant consignment agreement.
Many contracts allow for the practice of the seller, his agents, or his friends/relatives bidding.
As to the issue of an auction house selling consigned items after the consignor had "duly instructed" the consignor NOT to sell the items, there can be little legitimate question/issue of "timely notice" of same to the consignee, notwithstanding any lingo in the contract. The auction house, may, whether instructed to do so or not, withdraw any item from an auction prior to the hammer falling, for any reason he deems is in the interest of his consignor. (Thus, auction house Defendants that claim they were not notified "in time" have little to rest their argument upon.)
Written notice is best, oral notice not convincingly disputed works.
Change of market circumstance that was known or should have been known by the consignee, further weakens the defenses of a Defendant consignee.
///////////////////////////////
......................
With the online buying/selling experience of MOST folks here, consigning items to auction houses - even the "reputable and famous" ones - seems an unnecessary risk and expense.
Don't underestimate your skills, AND, most importantly, don't overestimate the skills and good faith of "professional" consignees.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
The things is mastro in its contract states that if an item is not paid for the original owner gets it back or it goes to the underbidder. By sending items before payment they breached their own contract.
It must be very tricky for the winners if they know their cards previous owners were not paid. On one hand the right thing to do is return the merchandise, on the other the only way to get your money back from the Mastro black hole would be to sue and you know that is going to be an ugly process.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
This whole Mastro fiasco leaves a whole stain on the auction house industry! Those guys were charging anywhere from 5%-20% (variance between seller and buyer fees) for items sold......they made MILLIONS!!!! And STILL couldn't pay their consignors?!?!?!??! SOmething reeks of greed!! I should start an auction house!! I'm not greedy!!! I promise EVERYONE would get paid!!! It is a simple theory = winner pays for item....consignor gets paid!!!! Auction house keeps the percentage......I don't know what is so hard to follow there?!?!?!?
<< <i>.....And STILL couldn't pay their consignors?!?!?!??! SOmething reeks of greed!!......I don't know what is so hard to follow there?!?!?!? >>
/////////////////////////////////////////////
Who did Michael O'Keeffe report "owned" the mastro auction biznez?
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OH. The same outfit that "owns" Legendary and other fine companies?
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".....But the Murphys say they became more than a little distressed when they learned that Mastro Auctions, which is at the center of an FBI investigation into shill bidding, card doctoring and other allegations of fraud, had gone out of business in March and Allen had started a new firm, Legendary Auctions. Their anxiety skyrocketed when the second payment arrived two weeks late. When the third and final check didn't materialize by the May 31 deadline, the Murphys' frustration and anger was boiling over.
"Bill Mastro told us he would try to help us, but we wouldn't get paid because we were 'little people,'" says Murphy, who adds that Mastro seemed quite sympathetic to their plight but told him that Silk Road Equity, the North Carolina investment firm that owned Mastro Auctions, would take care of its banks and important memorabilia industry partners before it took care of the Florida couple.
When Allen and several colleagues announced over the winter that they had bought Mastro assets and would go into business as Legendary Auctions, they promised in a press release that all outstanding Mastro Auction business would be "seamlessly facilitated, processed and completed through Legendary Auctions." But the transition has been anything but seamless. Some Mastro consigners have complained that they haven't been paid for items that sold months ago.
Allen says the matter is out of his hands. The responsibility to pay consigners and other creditors belongs to Mastro Auctions, which was owned by Silk Road Equity. Silk Road has a small stake in the new auction business, Allen adds, but Legendary Auctions is a completely separate entity from Mastro Auctions."
If anyone consigned with Legendary they should have their head checked. It will be very interesting to hear them try and convince people at the National why they should be trusted again.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
"Buying on invoice" is nothing new. Credit and trustworthiness has always been a cornerstone between many dealers in the coin, currency, stamps, and sports card/memorabilia arenas.
But not paying for items received by those "invoiced dealers"?
That really sucks!
And is "punch to the stomach" to all those dealers who "buy on invoice", and pay their bills when due!
These guys can spin it any way they want;
...they got merchandise "on invoice" but never paid!
"..."Buying on invoice" is nothing new. Credit and trustworthiness has always been a cornerstone between many dealers in the coin, currency, stamps, and sports card/memorabilia arenas...."
<< <i>Can you imagine if PSA was named instead of SGC?
Yeah, I would imagine if that were the case then this thread would last another 30 seconds or so. As long as it is someone else's dirty laundry I'm sure it will stick around. >>
Not to mention it was posted over at SGC and still remains. I blame Mastro for now and will wait and see what becomes of Foreman, but will not be quick to judge on the 400K as I think there is more to the story than we know.
<< <i>Why won't this thread just die?? It had gotten to page 2 now back to the top. We all know about this. >>
I dont think this thread should ever die, not until ALL of the consignors have been paid by Legendary/ Mastro. If they owed you a few thousand dollars Im sure it would be a big deal to you, but since they dont its obviously OK to sweep this all under the rug?
This topic is alot more important than anything else on page one of these boards.
I doubt all of the consignors will get paid. It is clear that Silk Road plans to wipe clean all of their obligations from Mastro. Companies like Silk Road only care about protecting their investors, customers don't matter.
You know I have pretty much read all about this the last few days and here is my take for what its worth:
A) NO and I MEAN NO auction house has the right to send a cosigners items TO ANY buyer without recieveing payment. PERIOD END!!!!
If said auction house does do this then They assume ALL responsibility and the day they ship the items to the buyer a check should be issued to the consignor.
C) If an item is NOT paid for in the predetermined time frame for which was outlined in the auction house rules, A phone call to the consignor should be made and options to the consignor offered:
1) sell to under bidder 2) return item to consignor 3) offer to put it in the next auction
I dont know whats so hard here, I dont care if the buyer is warren buffett himself. PERIOD!! Mastro was wrong in sending ANY item with contacting the consignors and getting permission with out getting payment. IT WASNT THEIRS TO SEND!!!! NO if's, and's or but's.
This is the stuff that makes me so angry, I sware to every board member here...I will make this hobby change..you just wait and see...
We will take our hobby back from these people..I promise you that!!
If Legendary asks me to consign at the National, Storm, that will be my first question.
One way to make them pay is if nobody consigns to them until all old consignees have been paid. Its not like there are other auctions houses out there.
IMO they looked ridiculous at the last Sun Times show and everyone was laughing at them for acting like Mastro didn't exist.
I wonder what "deals" they will be offering to get people to consign again. I am sure they will make it hard to say no but really should we allow them to make money again on our hobby knowing they have screwed over honest collectors knowingly?
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
"... I am sure they will make it hard to say no but really should we allow them to make money again on our hobby knowing they have screwed over honest collectors knowingly?..."
Comments
Mickey71
Is the original consignor(board member) selling the item on ebay or is it Mastro or the person who won the item from Mastro? If it is Mastro or the the new owner, that would be terrible.
The new owner is selling it on ebay.
Steve
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
Not sure what is so confusing. Mastro extended credit to certain high rollers. Thereby allowing them
an uneven playing field. Mastro then would ship said items before they were paid for. It is also being said
that mastro shilled the auctions. The high roller types would then re sell the items (hopefully at a profit) and then
pay mastro. The economy tanked, some high rollers could not repay, mastro then found itself in a bind and could not pay
the original consigners. To get the heat off of them they then started publicly announcing who owed them money
in a lame attempt at trying to put the blame on said high rollers. A separate situation developed when one of those high rollers
was named and he happens to own SGC.
Because he was named all sorts of sordid accusations are flying, does he get better grades etc.
That IMO and it is only my opinion of what I have read and heard went down.
Steve
For more info regarding this net 54 has a thread about it too.
Steve
<< <i>What link are you asking about? The link to the daily news story? it is on page 1.
For more info regarding this net 54 has a thread about it too.
Steve >>
The link to the card on Ebay. Stolen goods are stolen goods regardless if they are on Ebay or in a card shop.
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
<< <i>
The link to the card on Ebay. Stolen goods are stolen goods regardless if they are on Ebay or in a card shop. >>
But it's not stolen. Guy is winning bidder on auction from auction house. Pays auction house. Lists the card on Ebay to sell after it is in his possession. Auction house does not remit those funds to the consignor of the card. Thus, there is not explicit theft involved. The auction house has failed in its contractual obligation to pay the consignor for his consignment. But there is not "stolen" property involved here.
<< <i>
<< <i>
The link to the card on Ebay. Stolen goods are stolen goods regardless if they are on Ebay or in a card shop. >>
But it's not stolen. Guy is winning bidder on auction from auction house. Pays auction house. Lists the card on Ebay to sell after it is in his possession. Auction house does not remit those funds to the consignor of the card. Thus, there is not explicit theft involved. The auction house has failed in its contractual obligation to pay the consignor for his consignment. But there is not "stolen" property involved here. >>
I think that might be wrong. It stinks for the guy that has bought stolen property but that is what he did.
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
<< <i>
<< <i>
The link to the card on Ebay. Stolen goods are stolen goods regardless if they are on Ebay or in a card shop. >>
But it's not stolen. Guy is winning bidder on auction from auction house. Pays auction house. Lists the card on Ebay to sell after it is in his possession. Auction house does not remit those funds to the consignor of the card. Thus, there is not explicit theft involved. The auction house has failed in its contractual obligation to pay the consignor for his consignment. But there is not "stolen" property involved here. >>
However, if the purchaser from the auction house is now disputing the validity of the sale (i.e. the purchase price due to shill bidding), he certainly can't lay claim to having clean title to the property. Secondly, the BK court might look at the shipment of the assets as fraudulent conveyance. If I was a consignor that has now found myself as an unwitting creditor, I'd certainly have my attorney try to promote this angle with the BK judge. Finally, if it is important to the purchaser to maintain their credibility, given their status in industry, they should just return the merchandise.
This is known as “bad luck.”
<< <i>However, if the purchaser from the auction house is now disputing the validity of the sale (i.e. the purchase price due to shill bidding), he certainly can't lay claim to having clean title to the property. >>
Regarding this particular item, the purchase from the auction house is not disputing the validity of the sale. It seems as if you are confusing issues. Regarding this item, the purchaser was not Dave Forman.
<< <i>
I think that might be wrong. It stinks for the guy that has bought stolen property but that is what he did. >>
John -- how is it "stolen property"? The auction house was an intermediary, and the consignor willingly entered into a contractual arrangement with the auction house. Now, the auction house absolutely, definitively has not lived up to its commitments under the contract. But that in and of itself does not make the consigned goods "stolen". Theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's consent. The consignor entered into a contractual arrangement [which was not honored] and provided the goods to the auction house. This is not stolen property.
I can only imagine the outrage if it were announced that Joe Orlando had gotten a 400k loan from Gary Moser. Well, really, what's the difference here? I'm not saying he's done any favors for Mastro...it doesn't sound like he has...but he still shouldn't be putting himself in that position. Also, in a copycat industry, I have to wonder if any other auction houses have also extended credit to big spenders and who they've extended it to.
As far as authenticators collecting, I don't have a problem with that...to an extent. I definitely wouldn't want an authenticator to be big in the registry. Or, to put it differently, if I'm submitting a would-be Mint 9 pop 2, I sure as heck don't want it graded by the guy who owns the first one.
<< <i>
<< <i>
I think that might be wrong. It stinks for the guy that has bought stolen property but that is what he did. >>
John -- how is it "stolen property"? The auction house was an intermediary, and the consignor willingly entered into a contractual arrangement with the auction house. Now, the auction house absolutely, definitively has not lived up to its commitments under the contract. But that in and of itself does not make the consigned goods "stolen". Theft is the illegal taking of another person's property without that person's consent. The consignor entered into a contractual arrangement [which was not honored] and provided the goods to the auction house. This is not stolen property. >>
I am no lawyer so I can't tell you the legal terms but seems to me if I consigned a card to Mastro and never got paid for it and it shows up on Ebay I am definitly contacting the local authorities.
To me its stolen property, to you its not. Thats why we have courts.
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
In this instance, the current "owner" legally bought the item from the consignor, but since the consignor did not legally complete the contract with the original owner, he was not in the position to enter into a legal contract with anyone else on the said item. Though not similar, if someone walked into my house and stole a $500 item and then resold it on ebay to someone, that person, though they legally "Bought" the item, might still be responsible for the replacement of the item and have to refund any monies received through the sale.
Again, I am no lawyer, I just play one on TV. But I am sure someone with legal experience might give an idea to what recourse the original owner has and what responsibility, if any, the new owner/seller has as well.
<< <i>People are entitled to their own opinion, but I don't think that a TPG owner/exec/authenticator should be building up personal debt with large submitters of any kind. If I owned a grading company, anyone who became entangled in any such relationship with a dealer/auction house would immediately be fired, and that would be stated up front. Collecting is one thing, accepting several hundred grand in extended credit from dealers is something else. I don't care who you are or how noble your intentions, when you start building up large debts like that, your likelihood of becoming compromised increases substantially. Anyone who doubts that can google the words campaign finance reform. This is especially true in an industry where "favors" are difficult to prove and can be seemingly harmless (ie. who would really know if we bumped that 9 up to a 10).
I can only imagine the outrage if it were announced that Joe Orlando had gotten a 400k loan from Gary Moser. Well, really, what's the difference here? I'm not saying he's done any favors for Mastro...it doesn't sound like he has...but he still shouldn't be putting himself in that position. Also, in a copycat industry, I have to wonder if any other auction houses have also extended credit to big spenders and who they've extended it to.
As far as authenticators collecting, I don't have a problem with that...to an extent. I definitely wouldn't want an authenticator to be big in the registry. Or, to put it differently, if I'm submitting a would-be Mint 9 pop 2, I sure as heck don't want it graded by the guy who owns the first one. >>
Ideally that would be the world I would like to live in, but how is this any different than PSA/BGS/SGC dealing with high volume submitters? If one submitter is responsible for 10%-20% of my business, wouldn't that put me in the same situation? I would do anything to keep them happy short of crime. What's a half grade among friends?
<< <i>Am I reading this right? Foreman gave Mastro baseball cards to auction off at a later date
but instead sold them earlier. I have no problem with him buying comic books but do kind of have
a problem with him selling cards. >>
Sure can understand that John - Hager of ASA sure thought it was OK - and if anyone has seen some his product - it might cause ya to run screamin' into the night.
Just like I remember when Beckett said their ONLY mission was to provide the public with "up-to-date" prices on cards.
They say - in business - if ya don't adapt - ya perish? Maybe it would be better to perish - if it means having trouble sleeping at night.
In theory, a grading company owner/employee could sell cards and be on the up and up. But, theory is just that....theory.
mike
It is pretty common here for folks to say, "Let the buyer beware."
In dealing with auction houses, it might be good to say, "Let the consignor beware."
The last mistake of the consignors in the current drama was
in their failing to file suit IMMEDIATELY when the contracted
deadline for payment passed.
But, the instant stuation got totally out of hand, in part, as a direct result of
consignors failing to understand and assure their legal rights PRIOR to entering
into the boilerplate agreements - the contracts - provided by most auction houses.
While many of those contracts provide the basis for a Defendant
auctioneer to argue he had the "authority" to extend credit to
third-parties in efforts to complete the contract, ONLY a VERY
trusting/foolish consignor would accept such an agreement.
In virtually all jurisdictions:
"The auctioneer has an obligation to its sellers to collect funds from
buyers and to take reasonable precautions in that process. For
a seller, there is no successful sale unless he gets paid. The terms
and conditions of payments to sellers and payments by buyers need
to be established in advance of the sale. A seller has a right to rely
on the auction house to not deliver the auctioned goods without proper
payment."
http://www.lawforart.com/auction.html
..................
wiki
"In law, misappropriation is the intentional, illegal use of the
property or funds of another person for one's own use or other
unauthorized purpose........by any person with a responsibility
to care for and protect another's assets (a fiduciary duty). It
is a felony, a crime punishable by a prison sentence."
........
Misappropriation does not occur in instances where the capital
was obtained for a service rendered. (It is prudent for Plaintiff's
lawyers to separately allege that Defendant auction houses either
had only a slight money interest and/or that such interest was or
should be forfeited for breach via negligence/fraud.)
A Defendant auction house, obviously, is free to claim that
its money interest in a consigned item conferred a right to
attempt collection via credit extension. If the contract states
otherwise, the claim will fail. Commissions are due upon "sale;"
there is no sale, from the Plaintiff consignor's view, until the funds
are collected and disbursed.
Consignors give a conditional money interest in consigned
property, to the auction house in the form of a commission.
Allowing the consignee to ship that merch without having first
collected FULL payment is NEVER in the interest of the consignor.
The consignee has a tiny percentage interest at risk, while the
consignor risks a large loss when the buyer/borrower fails to pay.
Boilerplate lingo allowing such extensions of credit can be
X-ed out of contracts, prior to execution. If your consignee
balks, run away FAST.
//////////
The elements of a constructive fraud claim are proof of circumstances
“'(1) which created the relation of trust and confidence [the “fiduciary”
relationship], and (2) [which] led up to and surrounded the consummation
of the transaction in which defendant is alleged to have taken advantage
of his position of trust to the hurt of plaintiff.'” Put simply, a plaintiff
mustshow (1) the existence of a fiduciary duty, and (2) a breach of that duty.
/////////////////
Fiduciary Relationship - An agency relationship is different from many
other forms of contract law. It produces a fiduciary or trust relationship.
Such a relationship places additional responsibilities on the parties.
The agent is expected to act in good faith on behalf of the principal,
and must put the welfare of the principal ahead of his/her own interests
or those of any other parties.
Operating in a reckless, careless, and excessively negligent manner may
result in a charge of CULPABLE NEGLIGENCE which is a form of fraud. An
auctioneer must act in a reasonable and prudent manner.
//////////////////
UCC Discussion:
"The last provision of Section 2-328 relates to bids by sellers and addresses
a very difficult problem that reflects the concern of the authors of the code
about the long standing practice of placing individuals in the audience whose
sole purpose is to run up the bids to generate a higher price for the seller.
These persons are sometimes called shills.
The code clearly states that the opportunity for the seller to bid at the sale
must be announced to the class of persons identified as bidders. If a
successful bidder discovers during or after the sale that the seller had been
bidding, this gives rise to the successful bidder’s requiring that the price of
the goods be established at the last bona fide bid made before the seller’s.
Also in the case of undisclosed seller bidding, the successful bidder has a right
to rescind the sale as if it had never taken place, to be relieved of any obligation
of payment, or to be entitled to a refund. The only obligation, of course,
would be to return the goods to the auctioneer or to the seller, depending
on who was at fault - seller or auctioneer - in not making the necessary disclosures."
////////////////////////////////////
I have not read the complaint filed by the auction house, or the
answer/counterclaim apparently filed by the SGC fellow who alleged "shilling."
I have also not read the relevant consignment agreement.
Many contracts allow for the practice of the seller, his
agents, or his friends/relatives bidding.
As to the issue of an auction house selling consigned
items after the consignor had "duly instructed" the
consignor NOT to sell the items, there can be little
legitimate question/issue of "timely notice" of same
to the consignee, notwithstanding any lingo in the
contract. The auction house, may, whether instructed
to do so or not, withdraw any item from an auction
prior to the hammer falling, for any reason he deems
is in the interest of his consignor. (Thus, auction
house Defendants that claim they were not notified "in
time" have little to rest their argument upon.)
Written notice is best, oral notice not convincingly
disputed works.
Change of market circumstance that was known
or should have been known by the consignee,
further weakens the defenses of a Defendant
consignee.
///////////////////////////////
......................
With the online buying/selling experience of MOST folks
here, consigning items to auction houses - even the
"reputable and famous" ones - seems an unnecessary risk
and expense.
Don't underestimate your skills, AND, most importantly,
don't overestimate the skills and good faith of "professional"
consignees.
it goes to the underbidder. By sending items before payment they breached their own contract.
Steve
<< <i>.....And STILL couldn't pay their consignors?!?!?!??! SOmething reeks of greed!!......I don't know what is so hard to follow there?!?!?!? >>
/////////////////////////////////////////////
Who did Michael O'Keeffe report "owned" the mastro auction biznez?
SilkRoad Equity LLC is a private investment firm that invests in and acquires businesses in a broad range of industries and manages them for growth and profitability.
Our investments are centered around growth -- growth achieved through acquisition, internal growth and/or through our universe of resources. We are constantly scanning the market, searching for the right executives and promising business opportunities.
We are based in Winston-Salem, NC and manage our own capital, with investments in the media and entertainment, life sciences, technology and telecommunications sectors.
http://www.silkroadequity.com
...........................
OH. The same outfit that "owns" Legendary and other fine companies?
PORTFOLIO
SilkRoad Equity’s investments are centered around growth -- growth through acquisition, internal growth and/or through our universe of resources. We are constantly scanning the market, searching for the right executives and promising business opportunities. Below is a summary of our family of businesses:
Barefoot Landing
(www.barefootlanding.com)
Myrtle Beach, SC
Barefoot Landing is 250,000 square foot restaurant, entertainment and leisure shopping center located in North Myrtle Beach, South Carolina. Key tenants include: House of Blues, Alabama Theater, Sunglass Hut, Chico’s, Johnny Rockets, Greg Norman's Australian Grille and Alligator Adventure.
Cryo-Cell International
(www.cryo-cell.com)
Tampa Bay, FL
Cryo-Cell is one of the world´s largest and most established family cord blood banks. An industry leader, we've helped greater than 140,000 clients worldwide collect and preserve their newborn´s umbilical cord blood stem cells - potentially safeguarding their families from many life-threatening diseases.
HardMetrics
(www.Hardmetrics.com)
Doylestown, PA
HardMetrics Inc. was founded in 2003 to make performance metrics ubiquitous in business process management through ease of use, shortest time to implement and lowest cost to own.
InterAct Public Safety
(www.interact911.com)
Winston-Salem, NC
InterAct Public Safety makes Connections for Life™ providing both stand-alone and fully integrated mission-critical public safety and homeland security systems and products. InterAct makes it possible for first responders from private, state, local and national agencies to decrease response times and increase their effectiveness in the communities they serve.
Legendary Auctions
(http://www.legendaryauctions.com)
Chicago, IL
Legendary Auctions offer the most ideal forum in which to bring high quality individual items and significant collections to the marketplace. Legendary Auctions not only helps you realize the highest possible prices for your valuable material, they offer consignors peace of mind that their consignments will be treated with the utmost care and that every aspect of the auction process will be executed with the greatest attention to every detail.
MissionMode Solutions
(www.missionmode.com)
Winston-Salem, NC
MissionMode is a technology services company dedicated to streamlining communications and facilitating team collaboration in a secure environment. Our solution, which can be tailored to meet a variety of business needs, was designed to be used by non-technical business users. We host the service so there is no need to install and maintain costly software.
onramp Branding
(www.onrampbranding.com)
Winston-Salem, NC
onramp is a company whose sole purpose is to take brands onto the fast-track of success. How? We're a Brand Consultancy dedicated to accelerate differentiation and uniqueness through product concept, brand development, packaging and design. Starting meaningful conversations with your customer is another way- by creating successful strategies of direct contact via web marketing, trade shows (B2B), and direct mail.
OpenHire
(www.openhire.com)
Winston-Salem, NC
The OpenHire Applicant Tracking System takes the headache out of online recruiting with one click job posting, our patented job board integration, requisition management, and custom HR and EEO reports.There's no software to buy or install. Simply log on to OpenHire over the Internet and you're ready to go.
Pendulab
(www.pendulab.com)
Singapore
Pendulab aims to provide leading collaborative solutions to small and large enterprises around the world. We make real time communication accessible everywhere and always with innovative chat and instant messaging, affiliate marketing, and mobile content.
Primary Tracking
(www.primarytracking.com)
Winston-Salem, NC
Primary Tracking develops software designed to track assets and inventory throughout the Supply Chain. We can track any item, anywhere in the supply chain, no matter where it is.
Primo Water
(www.primowater.com)
Winston-Salem, NC
Primo Water was created to meet a growing and unmet need for healthy, convenient, purified and mineral-enhanced bottled water for water coolers.
Rakote: Archive, Sell, Trade Comic Book Collections
(www.rakote.com)
Winston-Salem, NC
Born as a re-imagining of one of the greatest libraries in history, Rakote is the perfect place to organize your comic book collection. Once your precious pages are catalogued within the all-knowing database of Rakote, you’ll at once be able to, see your entire collection, assess missing issues and needed acquisitions, communicate with others to get what you need, amd facilitate trading, buying, and selling.
SilkRoad Realty Capital
(www.silkroadrealty.com)
Winston-Salem, NC
SilkRoad Realty Capital is a real estate investment and management company. Founded in 2004, by Andrew J. "Flip" Filipowski and Mathew Roszak, Winston-Salem, North Carolina-based SilkRoad Realty Capital has been an active investor and developer of master-planned communities, golf courses, hotels, office complexes, retail centers and multi-family housing.
SilkRoad technology
(www.silkroad.com)
Winston-Salem, NC
SilkRoad technology's Life Suite of talent management solutions helps you recruit, manage, and retain your best employees, ultimately contributing to the success of your business for years to come!
SolidSpace
(www.solidspace.com)
Winston-Salem, NC
SolidSpace is committed to offering premiere data center infrastructure and managed services to our clients. This dedication spans through our strong history in the data center industry, turnkey operations, our highly experienced technical staff and multi-site facilities.
TrueSystems
(www.truesystems.com)
Winston-Salem, NC
TrueSystems has over 10 years of experience managing large distributed camera networks that increase a businesses global reach, and protect its assetts.
Warthogs
(www.warthogs.com)
Winston-Salem, NC
The Winston-Salem Warthogs are the Class A Affiliate of the World Champion Chicago White Sox.
......................................
.............................................................
A generous outfit?
PHILANTHROPY
Andrew J. Filipowski, SilkRoad Equity, and its family of companies have played a long-term material role in the establishment and support of a number of high quality entrepreneurially oriented philanthropic organizations.
Filipowski Foundation
911 Heroes Fund
Black Rhino Rescue Fund
Habitat For Humanity
John G. Shedd Aquarium (Chicago)
Museum of Science and Industry (Chicago)
RiverRun Film Festival
SilkRoad Regenerative Medicine Fund
Summit School (Winston-Salem)
Winston-Salem School for the Arts
".....But the Murphys say they became more than a little distressed when they learned that Mastro Auctions, which is at the center of an FBI investigation into shill bidding, card doctoring and other allegations of fraud, had gone out of business in March and Allen had started a new firm, Legendary Auctions. Their anxiety skyrocketed when the second payment arrived two weeks late. When the third and final check didn't materialize by the May 31 deadline, the Murphys' frustration and anger was boiling over.
"Bill Mastro told us he would try to help us, but we wouldn't get paid because we were 'little people,'" says Murphy, who adds that Mastro seemed quite sympathetic to their plight but told him that Silk Road Equity, the North Carolina investment firm that owned Mastro Auctions, would take care of its banks and important memorabilia industry partners before it took care of the Florida couple.
When Allen and several colleagues announced over the winter that they had bought Mastro assets and would go into business as Legendary Auctions, they promised in a press release that all outstanding Mastro Auction business would be "seamlessly facilitated, processed and completed through Legendary Auctions." But the transition has been anything but seamless. Some Mastro consigners have complained that they haven't been paid for items that sold months ago.
Allen says the matter is out of his hands. The responsibility to pay consigners and other creditors belongs to Mastro Auctions, which was owned by Silk Road Equity. Silk Road has a small stake in the new auction business, Allen adds, but Legendary Auctions is a completely separate entity from Mastro Auctions."
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/2009/07/05/2009-07-05_mastro_fine_sports_auctions_disaster.html?page=0#ixzz0KXmgwxUp&D
////////////////////////////////////////////////////
My favorite website:
www.ic3.gov
Deflation making people do things they shouldnt..Thanks to Paulson, Bernanke and Turbotax Timmy
Mastro should be sharing a cell with Madoff
"Buying on invoice" is nothing new. Credit and trustworthiness has always been a cornerstone between many dealers in the coin, currency, stamps, and sports card/memorabilia arenas.
But not paying for items received by those "invoiced dealers"?
That really sucks!
And is "punch to the stomach" to all those dealers who "buy on invoice", and pay their bills when due!
These guys can spin it any way they want;
...they got merchandise "on invoice" but never paid!
rd
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
///////////////////////////////
Very true.
Set-Off
<< <i>Can you imagine if PSA was named instead of SGC?
Yeah, I would imagine if that were the case then this thread would last another 30 seconds or so.
As long as it is someone else's dirty laundry I'm sure it will stick around. >>
Bravo !!!
chaz
Dave
1957 Topps 99% 7.40 GPA
Hank Aaron Basic PSA 7-8(75%)
Steve
That may be so, however, Mastro breached the contract when they sent items before payment.
The contract states that after 60 days if payment is NOT made the cosigner can either sell to the under bidder
OR get his items back, by shipping before payment they breached their own contract.
Buying on invoice is fine as long as the items belong to the shipper.
Steve
Steve
<< <i>Why won't this thread just die?? It had gotten to page 2 now back to the top. We all know about this. >>
I dont think this thread should ever die, not until ALL of the consignors have been paid by Legendary/ Mastro. If they owed you a few thousand dollars Im sure it would be a big deal to you, but since they dont its obviously OK to sweep this all under the rug?
This topic is alot more important than anything else on page one of these boards.
joe
///////////////////////////
The consignors all had/have legal remedies.
If they lose money without litigating the issue,
it is their own fault.
A) NO and I MEAN NO auction house has the right to send a cosigners items TO ANY buyer without recieveing payment. PERIOD END!!!!
C) If an item is NOT paid for in the predetermined time frame for which was outlined in the auction house rules, A phone call to the consignor should be made and options to the consignor offered:
1) sell to under bidder
2) return item to consignor
3) offer to put it in the next auction
I dont know whats so hard here, I dont care if the buyer is warren buffett himself. PERIOD!! Mastro was wrong in sending ANY item with contacting the consignors and getting permission with out getting payment. IT WASNT THEIRS TO SEND!!!! NO if's, and's or but's.
This is the stuff that makes me so angry, I sware to every board member here...I will make this hobby change..you just wait and see...
We will take our hobby back from these people..I promise you that!!
Felicia
Link To Scanned 1952 Topps Cards Set is now 90% Complete Plus Slideshows of the 52 Set
was generally use by the mastro gang?
Anybody got a copy of the consignment agreement that
is now being used by the legendary outfit?
I am particularly interested in the PRECISE language related
to the consignees' obligation to collect/disburse payments.
One way to make them pay is if nobody consigns to them until all old consignees have been paid. Its not like there are other auctions houses out there.
IMO they looked ridiculous at the last Sun Times show and everyone was laughing at them for acting like Mastro didn't exist.
I wonder what "deals" they will be offering to get people to consign again. I am sure they will make it hard to say no but really should we allow them to make money again on our hobby knowing they have screwed over honest collectors knowingly?
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////
The notion that "paying back" the misappropriated money makes
everything OK, just does not fly with me.
If they owed me money, they WOULD pay me, but I would NEVER
do biznez with them again.
Go Phillies
If you go to net 54 someone there copied it word for word in its thread.
Steve