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SGC owner owes mastro 400k

According to an article in the NY daily news today the owner of
the grading company SGC owes for cards/memrobilia he won at auction.

He in turn is claiming he was shilled and feels he owes less then the 400k purported amount.


Mastro which went out of business only to be renamed Legendary still owes many people

that consigned items to them.


One can get the full story over at net 54, of course since it is not the owner/president of PSA

the person is basically getting a free ride.

Can you imagine if PSA was named instead of SGC?

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...er.html?page=0


Steve
Good for you.
«1

Comments

  • eyeboneeyebone Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭
    Read that article and thread over on net54 as well Steve. What a mess! I see a boat load of litigation before it gets sorted out. Regardless, the reputations of messers Allen, Mastro and Forman may never recover.

    Eyebone
    "I'm not saying I'm the best manager in the world, but I'm in the top one." Brian Clough
  • thenavarrothenavarro Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭
    Interesting story. Sounds like some ebay debacles we hear about but only on a grand scale. I do wonder though, how much Mastro owes Forman for the cards they sold of his. It's kinda one sided in that the story claims Forman owes 400k but unless I scanned it too quickly, it doesn't mention how much Mastro owes him. I would like to know if it's like $399,438 or if it's like $2,498. Makes a big difference when they are using his "debt" to justify bad cash flow situations that they've gotten into.

    Mike
    Buying US Presidential autographs
  • tennesseebankertennesseebanker Posts: 5,434 ✭✭✭
    Can you imagine if PSA was named instead of SGC?

    Yeah, I would imagine if that were the case then this thread would last another 30 seconds or so.
    As long as it is someone else's dirty laundry I'm sure it will stick around.
    image

  • SOMSOM Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭
    anyone have a link to the NY Daily News story (yours is dead, Steve)?

    or, the net54 thread?

    Thanks!


  • << <i>Read that article and thread over on net54 as well Steve. What a mess! I see a boat load of litigation before it gets sorted out. Regardless, the reputations of messers Allen, Mastro and Forman may never recover.

    Eyebone >>



    It is very interesting who posted the article on NET54 though.image
  • wolfbearwolfbear Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭

    The ripple effect of the contents of that article could well turn into a hobby tidal wave. image

    Things will probably never be quite the same after today.
    Hope SGC can survive this. Competition is a good thing for all of us.

    Pix of 'My Kids'

    "How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
  • wolfbearwolfbear Posts: 2,759 ✭✭✭
    Pix of 'My Kids'

    "How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
  • stevekstevek Posts: 29,938 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>According to an article in the NY daily news today the owner of
    the grading company SGC owes for cards/memrobilia he won at auction.

    He in turn is claiming he was shilled and feels he owes less then the 400k purported amount.


    Mastro which went out of business only to be renamed Legendary still owes many people

    that consigned items to them.


    One can get the full story over at net 54, of course since it is not the owner/president of PSA

    the person is basically getting a free ride.

    Can you imagine if PSA was named instead of SGC?

    http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...er.html?page=0


    Steve >>



    <<< One can get the full story over at net 54, of course since it is not the owner/president of PSA

    the person is basically getting a free ride.

    Can you imagine if PSA was named instead of SGC? >>>

    Steve - you are so right about that!
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭

    Yeah, I would imagine if that were the case then this thread would last another 30 seconds or so.
    As long as it is someone else's dirty laundry I'm sure it will stick around.




    My point was not that it stays here or not but how it is going over at net 54.


    And we have people right here in this community that were not paid for consignments from at least a year ago.

    I wonder if this article is over at SGC?

    Steve
    Good for you.
  • Stone193Stone193 Posts: 24,448 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanx for posting Steve.

    This is my favorite from the article when they say a guy backed out of a deal to sell an expensive comic book:


    << <i>There are other disputes that are not included in the suit; Allen had offered to serve as the liaison for the sale of a rare comic book Forman was interested in buying; an agreement was reached but never consummated when the seller backed out because he said he couldn't find the comic, which is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. >>

    Can't find an item worth hundreds of thousands of bucks? Hmmmm.

    Classic! That excuse ranks right up there with - "my dog ate my homework!" image

    mike
    Mike
  • SOMSOM Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭
    thank you Wolf!
  • tennesseebankertennesseebanker Posts: 5,434 ✭✭✭
    No, no Steve I wasnt being critical of you posting the info over here at all.
    I am glad you did, as it should be posted here as it is pertinent hobby news.
    I was just saying, as important as this info is to the hobby if the name Forman were replace with Orlando would the thread still be here ?
    image

  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    No probably not, just like a thread like this would not last long across the street either.

    Steve
    Good for you.
  • tennesseebankertennesseebanker Posts: 5,434 ✭✭✭
    We'll see how long it lasts, as i just started a thread on it.

    I don't see any reason to pull a thread that is public knowledge unless their are posters who come in to make accusations that arent true.
    image

  • storm888storm888 Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭
    There looks to be a fair number of "new registrants" posting
    to the N54 thread.

    .....

    I would throw my stuff in the garbage can, before I would give
    it to any of the auction guys.

    The "good ones" are ALL good, until they stop being "good."

    Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
  • jayhawkejayhawke Posts: 1,319 ✭✭✭


    << <i>He in turn is claiming he was shilled and feels he owes less then the 400k purported amount. >>

    Please take the stand and swear under oath. That would be terrible for those stand up guys at Mastro/Legendary. Allen admits to doctoring cards, and now this claim that his company shilled auctions. How can anyone continue to consign anything to these people. Mastro still owes consignors from a year ago. Wow!! Has Allen ever sold timeshares in Florida?
  • SoFLPhillyFanSoFLPhillyFan Posts: 3,931 ✭✭


    << <i>There looks to be a fair number of "new registrants" posting
    to the N54 thread.

    >>



    The current board was created in April 2009 after the old board software ran it's course. Everyone looks new but 99% have been with that board for years.
  • jackstrawjackstraw Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭✭
    Am I reading this right? Foreman gave Mastro baseball cards to auction off at a later date
    but instead sold them earlier. I have no problem with him buying comic books but do kind of have
    a problem with him selling cards.
    Collector Focus

    ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
  • SDavidSDavid Posts: 1,584 ✭✭
    So...how do I add SGC's owner to my bbl? LOL, j/k
  • calaban7calaban7 Posts: 3,030 ✭✭✭
    Very good read . It never seems to end with these guys. I'm glad I only have VERY High grade crappy sets .

    I got out of the registry in coins for this very reason. I started floating higher and higher to the top and realized , I didn't care for the people I was starting to notice.

    Collecting Baseball sets for our sons and not neccasarily for profit , is a lot more fun.
    " In a time of universal deceit , telling the truth is a revolutionary act " --- George Orwell
  • If Dave Forman uses CGC (SGC's sister co.) to have his comics graded and then sells them it's a big conflict of interest. That could easily fly under the radar.
    30's R Want List:

    R73 1933 Goudey Indian Gum - Series 288 - Nos. 118
    Also looking for 1953 Parkhurst & 1953 Quaker Oats Ripley's BION.

    If you have any available for sale PM me
  • MorgothMorgoth Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭
    Well PSA's CEO had a huge graded PSA collection that he eventually sold off. I think having it was construed by alot of people as a conflict of interest especially getting them graded by your own employees.
    Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
  • MorgothMorgoth Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭
    PSA also used to sell graded cards on this website.
    Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
  • storm888storm888 Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Well PSA's CEO had a huge graded PSA collection that he eventually sold off. I think having it was construed by alot of people as a conflict of interest especially getting them graded by your own employees. >>



    /////////////////////

    Should they have been graded by a lesser company?

    I guess that would not make good biz-sense.

    I am all for folks trying to avoid the appearance of
    conflicts, but REAL conflicts are generally hard to find.

    In a tiny town - or a tiny industry - folks often wear
    more than one hat. That does not mean they are
    doing anything improper.

    The reputable grading companies - including those
    of CLCT - all have inventory that they acquire via
    warranty claims. That ownership may be stretched
    to the appearance of a conflict, but it is FAR from
    an actual conflict.

    .............

    I was puzzled by SGC's claim today that they are the
    "only" graders that have a real "guarantee."

    A quick read of CLCT's SEC filings clearly shows that
    claim to be untrue.



    Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
  • eyeboneeyebone Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Read that article and thread over on net54 as well Steve. What a mess! I see a boat load of litigation before it gets sorted out. Regardless, the reputations of messers Allen, Mastro and Forman may never recover.

    Eyebone >>



    It is very interesting who posted the article on NET54 though.image >>




    Rich Klein, right ping? But I don't understand your implication.....can you explain?

    Eyebone
    "I'm not saying I'm the best manager in the world, but I'm in the top one." Brian Clough
  • mikeschmidtmikeschmidt Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭
    Eyebone -- Klein is associated with Beckett....which has their own competing grading service.

    Really a black eye for Forman. SGC had done so much to establish itself as the premier grading company of pre-war vintage. This is a black mark just as damaging as Merkel's relationship with the former SGC that culminated in the Doyle NY Nat'l grading debacle with Olbermann and Rosen...
    I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
  • eyeboneeyebone Posts: 1,404 ✭✭✭
    ah....thank you, mikeschmidt.

    eyebone
    "I'm not saying I'm the best manager in the world, but I'm in the top one." Brian Clough
  • mccardguy1mccardguy1 Posts: 1,509 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The ripple effect of the contents of that article could well turn into a hobby tidal wave. image

    Things will probably never be quite the same after today.
    Hope SGC can survive this. Competition is a good thing for all of us. >>



    I honestly dont think this places SGC in a bad light. It does seem that the owner has issues with Mastro but I think the owners business and the business of SGC will be perceived to be totally different by the collecting public.
    I am on a budget and I am not afraid to use it!!
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    f Dave Forman uses CGC (SGC's sister co.)


    SGC is not under the umbrella of guarantee companies any longer.

    at one time it was, but no longer.


    Steve

    Good for you.
  • ken61ken61 Posts: 55 ✭✭
    This is a really cool hobby and most collectors and dealers are good people. But I've always collected mainly for fun and not "investment." I've always been aware of the seedy underbelly of the hobby, as evidenced in Card Sharks, The Card, Operation Bullpen, the 75 mini thread, and now this fiasco with Mastro/SGC.

    I don't know how this will impact SGC, but I suspect this is just the tip of the iceberg for Mastro/Legendary Auctions.

    I think PSA is a good company and for the most part does a good job providing an objective third-party opinion. But I was very disappointed in their anonymous puff piece in the July SMR entitled "A Legendary Beginning."

  • cardbendercardbender Posts: 1,831 ✭✭
    This is a great hobby, filled with 100% honest people.
  • Since my name is mentioned in this thread; I would just to make a couple of points.

    1) Beckett Media has had several rounds of layoff in the past two years; I was among those people laid off, in my case June of 2007. I am neither a current employee or current contractor to Beckett Media. I do have friends that are still there; if you worked at a place for nearly 18 years I would hope that you maintained some friendships with people you worked with.

    2) I posted the story as a news story on Net 54. If I had not posted the story; I guarantee you someone else would have. And to Leon Luckey's (moderator of Net 54 credit) he did not make the thread go *poof*. And if the grading company in question had been BVG or PSA; I would have posted the story as well.

    3) No; I'm not perfect in any way -- but there was no "I want to attack SGC" in what I posted. Rather, I posted a story which ran in a major metropolitan daily publication. I have to say there was no malice involved; so don't read anything more into my posting that that. It was 6 AM Dallas time; I was up; saw the story on the daily feed I get from the NY Daily News and linked the thead to Net 54.

    4) And as an FYI, the reason I get the Daily News highlights; as well as the NY Post and NY Times was that I spent the first 30 years of my life in the NY Metropolitan area and like to keep up in what is happenning in that area

    If you have any more questions; I'll be happy to answer them.

    Regards
    Rich Klein
    Plano, Tx. Card Show #5, Sunday March 6, 2016 at Adat Chaverim (Northeast Corner Independence and Spring Creek) in Plano Tx 9Am to 4 PM. See you there!
  • otwcardsotwcards Posts: 5,291 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Rich Klein >>



    Good day Rich! It's been awhile and I'm glad to see you're still around. Will you be in Cleveland next month? Would love to say, "Hello" again.

    Be good and be well!

  • Scott;

    Great to hear from you. Yes I will be in Cleveland and the best way to chat would be for you to accept my Facebook request and we'll send a couple of messages that way. That way we won't clutter up this thread any more than it had to be image

    Hope all is going well with you and yours

    Regards
    Rich

    Plano, Tx. Card Show #5, Sunday March 6, 2016 at Adat Chaverim (Northeast Corner Independence and Spring Creek) in Plano Tx 9Am to 4 PM. See you there!
  • thenavarrothenavarro Posts: 7,497 ✭✭✭
    I may be in the minority in this instance, but I don't have a problem with Forman being over SGC and buying/selling/auctioning items. (I do have a problem with him not paying his bids though if that's true (or at least paying the difference between what he owes and what Mastro's owes him))

    I see there being a potential for "conflict of interest", but potential and actual "conflict of interest" is a big difference. For that matter, I don't have a problem with the PSA/DNA authenticators that buy/sell/auction autographs for a living. (In case you didn't know, some of them do) They have much the same potential "conflict of interest", but I've dealt with some of them for years and I find them to be more ethically sound then a lot of people I've run across. (can't speak about Forman, to my knowledge I've never dealt with him)

    Mike
    Buying US Presidential autographs
  • ndleondleo Posts: 4,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I still don't see how this makes Forman look bad. Mastro has been acknowledged by the FBI as running a criminal enterprise. If I bid around $400K on items only to see the auction house get busted for shill bidding, I wouldn't pay either until an investigation has been completed.
    Mike
  • storm888storm888 Posts: 11,701 ✭✭✭
    "...If I bid around $400K on items only to see the auction house get busted for shill bidding, I wouldn't pay either until an investigation has been completed. .."

    ////////////////////////////


    Ditto.
    Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    The only problem with all that is the timeline, he owes the 400k from well before the shill bidding
    came to light from what i understand. AND he has the items. If he is so perturbed regarding shill bidding and the amount he
    paid shouldn't the items go back to the original owners? many of whom have NOT been paid for them.

    Steve
    Good for you.
  • jackstrawjackstraw Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The only problem with all that is the timeline, he owes the 400k from well before the shill bidding
    came to light from what i understand. AND he has the items. If he is so perturbed regarding shill bidding and the amount he
    paid shouldn't the items go back to the original owners? many of whom have NOT been paid for them.

    Steve >>



    That could be a problem.............
    Collector Focus

    ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
  • MorgothMorgoth Posts: 3,950 ✭✭✭
    Why would Mastro give him the items before he paid. Sounds like there is alot more there than what is being told. Just because you know someone doesn't mean you overlook 400K and just hand over someone else's property.
    Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
  • WinPitcherWinPitcher Posts: 27,726 ✭✭✭
    Not only did Mastro give Forman items before he paid they gave items to many other too.

    The reason? They allowed certain big time players credit so they would bid big.

    Some of these big players would then resell the items and then pay mastro.

    It worked for a while but then the economy tanked and some of those very items that

    they paid big for were resold at a lesser amount.

    I have no idea if that is what happened to Forman, but it has been shown to have happened

    to the other person that owed mastro big dollars. Fisher from Yorktown sports.


    We have a person in this very community that consigned an item to mastro, it sold, mastro did not pay and the item

    is now on ebay.


    To answer your original question about it not making sense, it makes perfect sense if you understand what

    really went down.

    Steve
    Good for you.
  • Lothar52Lothar52 Posts: 2,664 ✭✭✭
    image
  • jayhawkejayhawke Posts: 1,319 ✭✭✭


    << <i>We have a person in this very community that consigned an item to mastro, it sold, mastro did not pay and the item >>



    Steve,

    Is the original consignor(board member) selling the item on ebay or is it Mastro or the person who won the item from Mastro? If it is Mastro or the the new owner, that would be terrible.


  • << <i>

    << <i>We have a person in this very community that consigned an item to mastro, it sold, mastro did not pay and the item >>



    Steve,

    Is the original consignor(board member) selling the item on ebay or is it Mastro or the person who won the item from Mastro? If it is Mastro or the the new owner, that would be terrible. >>



    Why would it be terrible if the new owner is selling the item, he paid Mastro right?
  • mtcardsmtcards Posts: 3,340 ✭✭✭
    I would say it would be terrible, since the item was in effect "stolen" from the original seller, the new seller is now selling "stolen" merchandise.
    IT IS ALWAYS CHEAPER TO NOT SELL ON EBAY
  • SOMSOM Posts: 1,555 ✭✭✭
    "it makes perfect sense if you understand what

    really went down."


    To those of us not in the inner circle, this thread is terribly confusing.

    Can somebody please do a "This is a football!" explanation of what the heck is being talked about?

    Names aren't necessary; an abstraction will do.

    Thanks!

    Nick
  • 2dueces2dueces Posts: 6,559 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not to derail this thread, but Mastro's still owes some of our own board members money from previous auctions.
    I hope Doug Allen will take care of it soon.
    W.C.Fields
    "I spent 50% of my money on alcohol, women, and gambling. The other half I wasted.
  • Mickey71Mickey71 Posts: 4,260 ✭✭✭✭
    To be in the high end market of sports collectibles you have to have thick skin. I am reading quite frequently about things that are not real ethical in this hobby. I do buy some expensive items; but I keep it within strict parameters---ie. graded Mantle, Mays and Aaron cards mostly. I do not deal with large auction houses. When I saw the 1962 Cepeda-Maris card in PSA 8 for $5000 in a major auction sale red flags started popping up all over the place for me. I stick with PSA and SGC cards. I do not buy any vintage graded by beckett. The more I hear about Mastro the more I dislike. JMO.
  • OckhamsRazorOckhamsRazor Posts: 207 ✭✭
    Looks like a classic Bust-Out.
    Throughout history, poverty is the normal condition of man. Advances which permit this norm to be exceeded — here and there, now and then — are the work of an extremely small minority, frequently despised, often condemned, and almost always opposed by all "right-thinking" people. Whenever this tiny minority is kept from creating, or (as sometimes happens) is driven out of a society, the people then slip back into abject poverty.

    This is known as “bad luck.”
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