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NCS Conservation of the Month: Before or After?
Artist
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This month NCS is showcasing work they did on an 1898-S Double Eagle.
Would you rather own the coin in its 'before' state with the red copper spots, or in its 'after' state with the spots removed?
Would you rather own the coin in its 'before' state with the red copper spots, or in its 'after' state with the spots removed?
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<< <i>So I guess this is "Approved" doctoring of a coin?
One man's conservation is another man's doctoring.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
i like the after coin.
<< <i>too much bias exists with the forum membership to get an objective answer to a question like this. i would suggest in the future that you post the picture of an "after" coin and hope that noone has seen it and rats you out. then, after members have tripped over themselves stating what a nice coin it is, you can add the link to the NCS site. that would be objective, albeit somewhat embarrassing, also.
i like the after coin. >>
Well said and I agree completely!
Pete
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<< <i>So I guess this is "Approved" doctoring of a coin?
Yes, similar to restoring the Sistine Chapel or other rare work of art that has deteriorated over time.
Keets, spot on, no pun intended.
<< <i>Yes, similar to restoring the Sistine Chapel or other rare work of art that has deteriorated over time. >>
That's a fair analogy for coins that have actually deteriorated over time and are in need of conservation (of which the coin shown here may well have been one), but we all know that a lot of coins get conserved that didn't need it and are made worse and less desirable by the process.
... way before it got them red spots.
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<< <i>Yes, similar to restoring the Sistine Chapel or other rare work of art that has deteriorated over time. >>
That's a fair analogy for coins that have actually deteriorated over time and are in need of conservation (of which the coin shown here may well have been one), but we all know that a lot of coins get conserved that didn't need it and are made worse and less desirable by the process. >>
Great point. "If it ain't broken, don't try to fix it."
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
i don't believe we all know that and don't believe the latter part of statement is necessarily true. this again is part of the bias that exists regarding the work done by NCS and, yes, at times by PCGS. while i tend to agree somewhat that many coins should be left alone, most often the reaction to a conserved coin is based primarily on the knowledge that it's been conserved. for my own part, whenever i see a coin in an NGC holder and it doesn't look correct i suspect that it went through NCS. whenever i see a coin in a PCGS holder looking similarly the thought isn't that it's been conserved, just that it's a nice coin. too be honest, it isn't entirely possible to know either way.
what i do know is that many coins should in fact be "conserved" due to what may happen to them in the future if severe problems aren't taken care of now. whether the OP coin is one of them i don't know. i use NCS myself, not for value enhancing but to stop damage which is an eventuality.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>So I guess this is "Approved" doctoring of a coin?
I thought this was undoctoring
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I think before we conclude how great the service is, we understand what was on the coin and how it was taken off.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
---------i can't understand why some members think NCS is lying about what the "red stuff" is.
I am not suggesting that NCS is lying or being deceptive...
Its just that the red spots I see look like some type of paint or possibly finger nail polish. Those large red spots do not look like the traditional copper spots I see. Could be the image I see is just different than what you see.
My questions are really quite fair and reasonable...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
That is pretty typical of a copper spot; at least the ones I have seen.
The large red areas do look sort of odd, but I don't think it is paint. It might be spotting after a dip, an improper rinse can really bring out the copper in a bad way.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
certainly this is your choice, but it seems a rather silly(foolish, actually) thing to do if the reason is to prove that NCS can't get rid of the carbon spots on your coin. try to follow me now, cause i'd hate to lose you!!!
........................NCS has simply taken the best case scenario that they've had recently and used it as a marketing advertisement, that's it. they aren't saying they can work magic, they aren't saying that in all cases they can remove every carbon spot, they aren't saying "Send in your Gold coins and we'll make them look like new." what they are saying is that "It's possible to remove carbon spots from Gold coins" in some instances, so they used an extreme example to demonstrate their point. why are you having trouble inferring as much from that link and the pictures???
i have always thought the members at this site were pretty smart, maybe i've overestimated.
........................NCS has simply taken the best case scenario that they've had recently and used it as a marketing advertisement, that's it. they aren't saying they can work magic, they aren't saying that in all cases they can remove every carbon spot, they aren't saying "Send in your Gold coins and we'll make them look like new."[/
This is exactly what they are doing - implying they can give you same result. They want folks to think they can send in pieces like HighRelief's Saint and have them look great after "conservation". I applaud HighRelief and say go for it - call them out on their claim.
Edited to add italics and then edited to say that.
<< <i>NCS has simply taken the best case scenario that they've had recently >>
I agree with this. Why would they do otherwise? I cannot imagine it would go down any other way.
Think about it for a minute; think about what it implies.
Every other NCS conservation result in the month was not as good. Or at least not good enough to be picked for the conservation of the month. That might have something to do with the prestige of the coin being conserved, but i'd say it has more to do with the results attained.
I also think it is interesting to look at the before and after of the big red spot near star #8. Look carefully for the blue tick mark in the middle of the spot; that is where the impurity originates. Note how in the after photo, you can see a tiny little speck right where the blue was. I wonder if the NCS treatment was sufficient to prevent that location from continuing to tone? All of the blue specks on the before coin have a corresponding speck on the after coin.
I have no direct experience with removing spots like this on gold and am unlikely to. I've purchased a few coins with minor spotting like this, but not in locations that make you go "ick".
However, I did have an experience with removing similar spots on cheap US Mint bronze Spouse Medals. The spots were very similar; reddish on the outside with blue cores. After dipping, I was left with faint white patches, regions of flowered metal that I cannot remove. Also, I discovered that the rinse process is by far the most important part of dipping. And, most importantly, I discovered that I need to leave conservation of real coins to folks that know what they are doing. Or, even better, to not get myself into a coin conservation situation in the first place by controlling what I purchase.
U.S. Nickels Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
U.S. Dimes Complete Set with Major Varieties, Circulation Strikes
<< <i>This is exactly what they are doing - implying they can give you same result. They want folks to think they can send in pieces like HighRelief's Saint and have them look great after "conservation". I applaud HighRelief and say go for it - call them out on their claim. >>
Quote from NCS: The conservators at NCS have developed techniques to remove the unsightly copper spots on the surface of a gold coin yet retain a coins natural "skin" or original surface look which is very important when it comes to grading a gold coin.
I am calling them on this claim and using a coin that will make a great example of what they are talking about. If the coins cleans up nice, it could even go up one grade. NCS might even use my 1908-D as the "Conservation Coin of the Month" if all goes well. When I post the coin after the "Conservation" it will be interesting to hear the feedback from the pretty smart members here.
PCGS will give your copper spotted golds coin one less point when grading them as you can see.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
my hunch is that you haven't. further, i suspect that like me you generally choose to avoid coins with problems and unlike me favor damaged "original" over "conserved" in practiacally every instance, the exceptions being when you have no knowledge of what's been done to a coin and believe it to be original. having used NCS on many occasions i can tell you that it isn't a blanket service, which is to say that every coin submitted to them is first evaluated and then either conserved using the proper technique or returned to the owner with nothing done/graded via NGC. i have had coins returned to me both ways. i have also had coins returned to me with less than stellar results. on balance, what NCS is able to do generally improves the appearance of a coin but falls short of dramatic. in the end their efforts remove the possibility of further damage and tend to restore my coins to a better state of preservation.
remember, this is an advertisement. it's sort of like the beer commercials with all the hot chicks, good clean fun and well groomed drinkers. remember one thing, Michelob always tells you who the night belongs to with no mention of the morning after. it's ADVERTISING!!! get a grip, man!!!
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<< <i>Yes, similar to restoring the Sistine Chapel or other rare work of art that has deteriorated over time. >>
That's a fair analogy for coins that have actually deteriorated over time and are in need of conservation (of which the coin shown here may well have been one), but we all know that a lot of coins get conserved that didn't need it and are made worse and less desirable by the process. >>
Of course. Maybe I am the only one who gets a chuckle out of the posts that imply that all conservation is wrong and that NCS is the only player in this game. What about the SS Central America, $20 gold Libs, who conserved these? Or do we give this a pass because they laid in salt water for 100+ years.
Who says we have to accept what is advertised? We all know what beer tastes like - thoses guys are selling an image that they hope will gain market share. NCS, on the other hand, is selling a service. Claims that a service works need to be valid. Claims that drinking a certain beer will make you feel young and sexy do not.
Let's see what happens to this Saint - test the waters for the forum. I hope for the best.
<< <i>HighRelief------i would ask a simple question of you: Have you ever used the services offered by NCS????
my hunch is that you haven't. further, i suspect that like me you generally choose to avoid coins with problems and unlike me favor damaged "original" over "conserved" in practiacally every instance, the exceptions being when you have no knowledge of what's been done to a coin and believe it to be original. having used NCS on many occasions i can tell you that it isn't a blanket service, which is to say that every coin submitted to them is first evaluated and then either conserved using the proper technique or returned to the owner with nothing done/graded via NGC. i have had coins returned to me both ways. i have also had coins returned to me with less than stellar results. on balance, what NCS is able to do generally improves the appearance of a coin but falls short of dramatic. in the end their efforts remove the possibility of further damage and tend to restore my coins to a better state of preservation.
remember, this is an advertisement. it's sort of like the beer commercials with all the hot chicks, good clean fun and well groomed drinkers. remember one thing, Michelob always tells you who the night belongs to with no mention of the morning after. it's ADVERTISING!!! get a grip, man!!!
To answer your simple question, yes, I have used NCS. I sent this 1904-O 66 DPL in about 5 years ago to have "Conservation" done on it. I wanted to see how a prooflike coin would look after they did their magic and here it is. I like how it turned out, they were able to bring out the moderate cameo on this coin.
They did turn down my Anacs 1883-S MS62 PL Morgan for conservation that had carbon spots on it for some reason? Who knows, they may think that my 1908-D could be to tough of job for them also, we will see.
I guess I am just "Having Fun With My Coins"
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Yes, similar to restoring the Sistine Chapel or other rare work of art that has deteriorated over time. >>
That's a fair analogy for coins that have actually deteriorated over time and are in need of conservation (of which the coin shown here may well have been one), but we all know that a lot of coins get conserved that didn't need it and are made worse and less desirable by the process. >>
Of course. Maybe I am the only one who gets a chuckle out of the posts that imply that all conservation is wrong and that NCS is the only player in this game. What about the SS Central America, $20 gold Libs, who conserved these? Or do we give this a pass because they laid in salt water for 100+ years. >>
I've read that many of these conserved SS Central America coins have turned in their holders---some quite drastically.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>What about the SS Central America, $20 gold Libs, who conserved these? Or do we give this a pass because they laid in salt water for 100+ years. >>
I've read that many of these conserved SS Central America coins have turned in their holders---some quite drastically. >>
How many people have experience conserving salvage coins?
As for the copper spots on gold, I think that collectors VASTLY over rate their significance. They are a natural occurrence with these U.S. gold coins, and some light staining actually adds some charm to some pieces. Heavy ugly staining can be a problem, but sending coins NCS is not a wonderful answer.
The big negative to having copper spots dipped off is that they might return again in a year or so. If they were ugly the first time around, they will probably be just as ugly the second time. The thing is all dipping does is remove the surface stuff. If there is more underneath, it will surface again. Unsuspecting buyers can get an unpleasant surprise from these coins that look okay when you buy them and awful a year or so later.
I am not a not a big fan of NCS for the most part.
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<< <i>
<< <i>What about the SS Central America, $20 gold Libs, who conserved these? Or do we give this a pass because they laid in salt water for 100+ years. >>
I've read that many of these conserved SS Central America coins have turned in their holders---some quite drastically. >>
How many people have experience conserving salvage coins? >>
I've had experience with them, and yes some of those coins have turned color VERY BADLY. If you spent $12,000 for an SS Central America in MS-65 and it grew serious spots, you have lost a lot of money. No one will pay good money for those coins that have gone really bad, but at the time that they were sold it would have been difficult if not impossible to have seen it coming.
<< <i>I've read in several places that the standard method for removing copper spots from gold coins involves passing a small butane torch over the copper spots. Anyone familiar with this technique that can explain how it works? >>
I thought they used some caustic chemical like cyanide to remove copper spots on gold.
Mike
But aside from the red mark, which may not have been copper staining at all, (and probably wasn't), the didn't have much wrong with it before they messed with it. The stains as light as they were might not come back. But with some other gold coins, it can be a matter of "jacking a coin up" so that it can be sold at a decent price, and then a couple years down the road the buyer finds out he's been had.