Steve Carlton vs. Randy Johnson: who was better?

cuda440

Who was the better left-handed pitcher in your opinion? Been having this friendly debate with someone who says Lefty Carlton was better, I say the edge goes to The Big Unit who IMO was a more dominating and imposing pitcher similar to Nolan Ryan. Don't know their entire stats exactly but off-hand Carlton had more wins and Johnson more strikeouts I believe.

edmundfitzgerald

No comparison. Randy had to be on roids to be a power pitcher into his mid-40's. Not even worth debating IMO.

That's like comparing Roger Clemens to Tom Seaver. No comparison. Not even fair to do it.

stevek

I give it to Carlton because he's a Phillie and we share the same first name.

digicat

<< <i>Randy had to be on roids to be a power pitcher into his mid-40's. Not even worth debating IMO. >>



So do you also think that Nolan Ryan was on roids?

Ryan posted far better numbers in his 40s than Johnson has.

edmundfitzgerald

<< <i>

So do you also think that Nolan Ryan was on roids?

. >>



Bob Gibson pooped out at 40.
Tom Seaver put up pathetic numbers from the ages of 40-42.

Nolan Ryan had 1,190 strikeouts after the age of 40.

I guess I'd call it a little suspicious.

cuda440

<< <i>

<< <i>

So do you also think that Nolan Ryan was on roids?

. >>



Bob Gibson pooped out at 40.
Tom Seaver put up pathetic numbers from the ages of 40-42.

Nolan Ryan had 1,190 strikeouts after the age of 40.

I guess I'd call it a little suspicious. >>




that Advil really worked...

markj111

They were both great pitchers-better than Ryan certainly. The following link has a nice discussion on pitchers.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/the-all-time-best-pitchers/

edmundfitzgerald

Let me say this. Forgive me if I offend anyone about the Ryan statement. I'm not saying he did anything wrong.
It's just a little strange to me that he could keep pitching effectively until the age of 46. Perhaps he was given a God
given ability to accomplish that. Perhaps Randy was given that same gift. Who knows.

All I'm saying is that it's a little suspicious that Clemens, Johnson, and Ryan were able to pitch well into their 40's effectively,
but guys like Bob Gibson and Tom Seaver couldn't. We all know about Roger, and Johnson and Ryan will just always be
second guessed by some.

TomGshotput

Randy Johnson has passed multiple drug tests. That is something Steve Carlton never did. Further, Carlton was at his best at a time when drug use in American was just as high as it is today. Based on that, there should be no comparison

Based on what they did when they were actually on the mound and not whether or not who might have broken the law, a slight edge to Johnson for second best left-handed pitcher in history

TomGshotput

Luke Appling had three of his best seasons at ages 40, 41 and 42. Nellie Fox, on the other hand, was washed up by age 35

How Strange Is That?

grote15

Luke Appling had three of his best seasons at ages 40, 41 and 42. Nellie Fox, on the other hand, was washed up by age 35

I remember when Luke Appling hit a HR at age 75 in an old timer's game some years ago, LOL...

Carlton v Johnson is a tough call...I don't think it's fair to look at the wins factor, though, as Carlton pitched a large part of his career for some really bad Philly teams. No question that Johnson had better talent around him for the most part.

stevek

Anybody can read about the rigorous, tough training regimen that Steve Carlton used to do - Steve Carlton was not on drugs....he worked his arse off.

DIMEMAN

I don't think you can assume a pitcher was on roids because he was affective into his 40's. Personally I don't think Carlton was on on drugs. He is right up there with the best.

And how can anybody put Ryan down he was great and did have a God given talent. Boy, some people just want to attack anybody who was good.

If you want to attack somebody for drugs just aim at the HR leader from SF! There should be an * by his name!!!

Tomi

The fact that some of these people to do the things that they do past 40 definitely raises eyebrows. I think he struck out Rickey Henderson with a 96 MPH fastball for his 5000th strikeout. That's major heat for a 40 something. If he ever did anything he will probably be one of the few guys that got away with it. I know he has alot of hardcore collectors and I'm curious how they would feel if it was proven that he juiced.

digicat

<< <i>I know he has alot of hardcore collectors and I'm curious how they would feel if it was proven that he juiced. >>



They'd probably be ticked off. How else do you think they'll feel?

WinPitcher

Johnson pitcher 2 years in NY, I can tell you he pitched like crap most of the time.

I doubt very much that he was on the juice. His body sure as heck does not look like a

player on juice. With that said, I find it difficult to compare players from different eras.

Neither were slouches that is for sure.

If I had a big game and needed to choose I might very well choose Carlton.


Steve

edmundfitzgerald

I think not too many people understand the history in America behind all these performance enhancers.

I think everyone should educate themselves before drawing conclusions to many of these questions that are asked
pertaining to this subject.

Pitchers like Bob Gibson and Sandy Koufax pitched in an era when HGH was first being experienced with by
pharmacists. The first effective use of HGH (human growth hormone) was in 1958.
In 1960 the National Pituitary Agency was formed to further test this new treatment.

The Eastern Europeans started successfully using HGH in it's athletes in the late 1960's and 1970's.
You who watched the Olympics probably saw how the Russians and East Germans were getting bigger and stronger during that era.

In 1981, American company Genentech developed the first synthetic HGH. What is HGH ??? HGH is released from the pituitary
gland mostly during the ages of 12-30 that allows your body to grow and produce muscle. At age thirty (give or take a few
years depending on the individual), HGH is no longer produced and released in the body. That's why people really start
to "slow down" once they hit 38 and older. The body is beginning it's declining process.

MLB or Major League Baseball did not declare HGH as a banned substance until January 2005. So HGH could have been
used as a LEGAL substance by anyone in MLB by the time it hit the market in 1981 until 2005.

So any pitcher that was alive and active from 1981-2005 could have taken HGH to prolong his career. Players
who retired before 1981 probably could have got it from Eastern European suppliers if they wanted to.
Players who retired before let's say 1975 probably had no chance of using HGH.

HGH is the drug Andy Pettite used to "recover" from injury. It also helps skin aging, increases muscle mass and strength,
helps weight loss, and increases sexual appetite. It also has side effects like increased temper and liver problems.

So Nolan Ryan could have easily taken HGH legally before or after 1981.
It is simply not fair to compare pitchers from different eras just because of the HGH factor.

My opinion is that anyone who retired before 1975 (or a range of 1975-1979) should never be compared to
anyone after 1981. I'm not saying that everyone after 1981 used HGH, but the POSSIBILITY exists.

edmundfitzgerald

And when it comes to Bob Gibson, we also have to remember that he and Koufax had the advantage of a raised mound
during the 60's. I believe the mound was lowered in 1968 after Gibson had that ridiculous ERA of 1.13 or something like that, and
Yaz led the league in hitting with a .301 or something like that.

TomGshotput

Drugs were first banned in the Olympics in 1968. By 1976 reliable testing was in place

Here is by far the best account of drugs in sports from that era: http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1082543/index.htm

Through the 70s, 80s and 90s Major League Baseball chose not to test their players. Any business is free to make that choice. While a drug free workplace is essential, demanding a drug free workforce is expensive, an invasion of privacy and so often does not improve productivity. Because of that, employees not subjected to drug tests deserve all the credit for the work they do. It is also important to remember that management, players, media, fans and congress never asked Major League Baseball to change their policy

To say baseball players from the 60s and earlier can never be compared to players from the 80s and later because of drugs is like saying those from 1997 and earlier can never be compared to those from 97 and later because of interleague play. Sports change. The mound was lowered in 68, playoffs were added in 69, the DH in 73, steroids and hgh were being introduced in the 80s, cocaine was huge in the 80s and by the 90s steroids were wide spread. To avoid comparisons because of all those changes takes away from out ability to understand the sport

WinPitcher

Not sure what stats you are looking at but by age 42 Johnson was not striking out 200 batters per year.

Steve

jaxxr

Top Lefty starting pitchers of all time,

1 Lefty Grove
2 Warren Spahn
3 Randy Johnson ( still active so not an absolute final rank )
4 Carl Hubbell
5 Sandy Koufax
6 Willie Foster
7 Whitey Ford
8 Steve Carlton

greencrow

Happy birthday Steve!

MGLICKER

My homer choice is Mickey Lolich. 3 Complete game wins in the 1968 World Series.

Skin2

All we need is Jaxxr back, and then roll call will be nearly complete. I miss those debates with him, lol

markj111

A tougher question is which one was a bigger a**hole. Both were terrific pitchers. Carlton's WAR is 19th among pitchers, Johnson's is 9th. Carlton pitched 1000 more innings, but he hung around three years too long. Johnson was not terrible his last year.

Tabe

<< <i>A tougher question is which one was a bigger a**hole. Both were terrific pitchers. Carlton's WAR is 19th among pitchers, Johnson's is 9th. Carlton pitched 1000 more innings, but he hung around three years too long. Johnson was not terrible his last year. >>


Johnson faked an injury and tanked half a season to force a trade, so he's the bigger a-hole.

Dave99B

IMO, on their best day, Johnson had better stuff. Wicked stuff.

Dave

JoeBanzai

Different pitchers, both great! Randy had tremendous speed and with those long arms was INTIMIDATING!

Steve had that devastating slider that made a lot of hitters look pretty bad.

Tough call, I'll pick Johnson, he had the better nickname.