I was wondering about that, because some of the coins shown DO NOT show doubling that I thought was present on ALL 1876 CCs - Is this correct ? ( i've read this in numerous places )
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
<< <i>At first I was ready to be completely outraged, as it looks from the above images as though the coin was (quite unnecessarily) dipped sometime after the Heritage auction. However, as the cert number has not changed, I can only assume that the apparent difference in color is only a function of the imaging.
Still, I feel compelled to reiterate that the needless dipping of our national treasures is an outrage in most cases, and that artificial whitening is every bit as execrable as artificial toning.
Regardless, congratulations to Mr. Goe for acquiring a coin that he has dreamed of owning. That is always a wonderful feeling !!
I was wondering about that, because some of the coins shown DO NOT show doubling that I thought was present on ALL 1876 CCs - Is this correct ? ( i've read this in numerous places ) >>
All known specimens were struck with the same doubled obverse die and the same reverse die. Coins that do not have a doubled obverse die are either counterfeit, altered, or a new discovery (which would likely be the biggest news ever for this series).
Lane
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
<< <i>That is the Emery and Nichols Collection coin. I saw it in its Wayte Raymond page (where it had been for 40+ years) as part of the original collection in a home in upstate New York in the early 1980s. I remember my sense of awe at picking up the page, seeing it was complete, and seeing the doubling on the obverse before turning it over and KNOWING that the CC would be there.
Dipping that coin is a crime against numismatics!!!!! >>
Reports such as this make all the time that I spend on this forum seem very worthwhile. Please tell us more about how this coin looked then and about other coins in the Emery-Nichols collection that you remember.
1876-CC Twenty cent pieces, including those acquired by Goe, are discussed in the following articles: (Do PCGS Forum members think the comments therein are fair and accurate?)
When one of these showed up in 1988 (Cincy ANA?) I was seriously considering buying an MS65 specimen that was extremely clean for the grade. But I got cold feet by the thought of tying up too much money. It only sold for around $65-$85K as I recall which seemed stupidly cheap for that time period. I believe Rick Sear bought that coin. No doubt that's an MS66 today.
<< <i>That is the Emery and Nichols Collection coin. I saw it in its Wayte Raymond page (where it had been for 40+ years) as part of the original collection in a home in upstate New York in the early 1980s. I remember my sense of awe at picking up the page, seeing it was complete, and seeing the doubling on the obverse before turning it over and KNOWING that the CC would be there.
Dipping that coin is a crime against numismatics!!!!! >>
Reports such as this make all the time that I spend on this forum seem very worthwhile. Please tell us more about how this coin looked then and about other coins in the Emery-Nichols collection that you remember.
1876-CC Twenty cent pieces, including those acquired by Goe, are discussed in the following articles: (Do PCGS Forum members think the comments therein are fair and accurate?)
The toning on the silver, especially the proofs, would make you weep with joy. The bronze and copper-nickel pieces, however, were almost all flyspecked. This is typical of long-term storage in Wayte Raymond albums.
The early Walkers were incredible, but I guess the most memorable set other than the 20 centers would be the Barber quarters with the Big Three all gems.
TD
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
When one of these showed up in 1988 (Cincy ANA?) I was seriously considering buying an MS65 specimen that was extremely clean for the grade. But I got cold feet by the thought of tying up too much money. It only sold for around $65-$85K as I recall which seemed stupidly cheap for that time period. I believe Rick Sear bought that coin. No doubt that's an MS66 today.
I had two pieces at the 1988 ANA. One was the Emery Nichols coin, the other the Norweb specimen. I believe I sold th Emery Nichols coin at the show, although I'm fuzzy on that. But it did not go to Rick Sear.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
My memory was better than I thought. I ran across the catalog last night by sheer coincidence. In the Superior session of Auction '88 (Cincy ANA) lot 108 was a PCGS MS65 1876-cc 20c piece toned with medium lilac and blue. Description says it last appeared in the Oct 1987 Norweb 1 sale at $63,500. This time it fetched $77,500. My hand note lists Rick Sear as the buyer.
<< <i> In the Superior session of Auction '88 (Cincy ANA) lot 108 was a PCGS MS65 1876-cc 20c piece toned with medium lilac and blue. Description says it last appeared in the Oct 1987 Norweb 1 sale at $63,500. This time it fetched $77,500. My hand note lists Rick Sear as the buyer.
Is the coin still toned today? >>
In a full page CW ad in late 1988, Lustig offered both the Norweb and Emery-Nichols 1876-CC 20c pieces. If Rick Sear was the top bidder at a Summer 1988 auction, then there must be an explanation. He may have been waving a paddle for Lustig? Also, auctions move rapidly and you may have made an error while recording this note.
Roadrunner, did you keep notes regarding the buyers of rarities at many auctions? Do you still attend major auctions? I track pedigrees.
A history of the Norweb coin is included in the following article: It is very likely to be the coin that was auctioned in Oct. 2001.
A 76-cc could have been kept 80-90% blast white with very slight toning if kept in an appropriate environment. But I would agree that 100% white is probably not possible since these were not struck in quantity and kept in rolls/bags/etc for protection.
Roadrunner, did you keep notes regarding the buyers of rarities at many auctions? Do you still attend major auctions? I track pedigrees.
My auction attendance peaked around 1989. I only occasionally attend them now and generally only if they are held in conjuction with a show that I am attending. I usually jotted down notes on coins I was interested in buying or ones that it seemed appropriate. In Auction '88 I reviewed the majority of the silver type coins in the sale as I was backing up another dealer's grades. Most of the coins were still raw back then. I also try to record bidder numbers on each lot so that later I can go back through the catalog and see what a major buyer generally bought and try to gain some insight from it. It's certainly possible Sear was bidding on behalf of someone else on the 1876-cc (bidder #431). I also listed that the lot hammered at $80K, then crossed it out and put in $75K....and then $77,500....which indicated that there was obvious confusion as to which bidder had the $75K level. There was a 10% "juice" back then as well so the final price paid was $85,250.
Auction '88 was sort of a bell weather sale as the market was just starting to recover from the spring doldrums where money was very tight. This was one of the last times one could have loaded up in tons of nice coins before they really took off by 1989. Just flipping thru the catalog brings back many recollections: for one, the amazing 1896 complete (10 pc) proof set where nothing graded under NGC PF65 (realized $250K). The half eagle graded 67, eagle 65, double eagle 66....possibly the finest intact and original PF set of gold coins up until that time. It was tough to get grades above 65 back then. The set had sold in 1977 for $17K as part of the Fairfield Collecton (ex Harry Lamborn). Marty Haber owned it for the next 10 yrs as part of his amazing type coin collection.
Roadrunner- Do you know which coin was the toned one?
My memory may not be perfect, but of this much I am sure. The Norweb was reasonably deeply toned when the Norweb collection was sold. The Emery Nichols coin was only very lightly toned at the time that collection was sold.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
In he mail today I got my Curry's Chronicle from the Carson City Coin Collectors club and the is an article from Rusty tracking the origin on the 3 twenty cent pieces he bought in 2009. After reading it I will let you know if it adds any info.
<< <i>The Emery Nichols coin is the one now owned by Goe.
Do you know which coin was the toned one? >>
Information about the Norweb coin, which has (or at least had) medium toning, is found in an article referenced below (Part 2). It is very likely to be the coin that was offered in a Heritage auction in October 2001. In the PCGS registry, the Driftwood collection is now said to contain the Norweb 1876-CC, and I cannot think of a reason why this would not be true. It is certain that Jay Parrino owned both the Norweb and Goe pieces in the 1990s. Both are now PCGS graded MS-66. As to whether the Goe and Emery-Nichols pieces are the same coin, it is very likely that this is true, but I wonder if it can be concluded with certainty.
In Part 1, it is explained that Goe was the successful bidder for three different 1876-CC 20 pieces in 2009. Of these three, the PCGS graded AU-58 1876-CC has the most toning. I really think Blu62's questions, and questions put forth by others regarding the distinction between the Goe-Emery-Nichols and Norweb pieces, are answered in these two articles:
I sent Rick Sear an e-mail. Hopefully his memory is better than mine.
Just heard from Rick. According to him, we purchased the coin as a joint venture out of the auction. Later, I bought him out of the coin, and subsequently sold the coin to Mark Yaffe.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I was at the Superior auction in 2001 where the Emory Nichols 76CC was offered. At the time, it was blast white I presume from being recently dipped. When I owned the coin a few years ago, it had a light golden overtone on it.
No way, no how can the Norweb coin be considered only medium toned. It's rather dark blue, so I'd consider it a medium well done.
<< <i>I was at the Superior auction in 2001 where the Emory Nichols 76CC was offered. At the time, it was blast white I presume from being recently dipped. When I owned the coin a few years ago, it had a light golden overtone on it.
No way, no how can the Norweb coin be considered only medium toned. It's rather dark blue, so I'd consider it a medium well done. >>
In some pictures, the Emery-Nichols-TDN-Goe coin does seem to have a slight goldish overtone Does anyone who saw it in 2009 wish to comment here on its exact appearance? Is it almost entirely blast white? TDN, are you suggesting that might have been dipped again since you last owned it? When did you own it? I track the pedigrees of Great Rarities.
Blu62, I really think that some of your questions are answered in the two CoinLink articles referenced below. (Please click on both links.) There is a whole paragraph on the colors of the tones on the Pick-Jurgensen-Goe 1876-CC, which is PCGS graded AU-58. Other information about this coin is provided as well. As you seem to be seriously interested in the subject matter, I am curious as to what you think of these articles.
Wow. Just wow. When I hear of some one spending that much on a single coin, I just think about what a magnificent type set, or Capped Bust variety set you could build with that much loot. Shooot I'd pick up a 1792 disme before a dipped out 20c piece!
<< <i>I'll bet you when that 1876-cc 20c was toned (way back) it would have only graded an ms65.
In my opinion, the 'dip' and the resulting 'high luster' look to the coin bumped it to an ms66.
I'm not knocking the coin, it's just the way the system works.
This is why we shouldn't knock dipping. It's what everyone rewards. >>
Mr.DoubleEagle59, I disagree. Both the Norweb and Emery-Nichols pieces were NGC graded MS-65 when Andy Lustig owned them in 1988. The Norweb 1876-CC 20c piece was later graded MS-66 by both services. As far as I know, the Norweb piece was never dipped. My guess is that the Emery-Nichols 1876-CC would have been graded 66 by both services had it never been dipped. There has been some grade-inflation for such coins, since 1988. Moreover, Lustig spoke highly of how it then looked, and see Capt. Henway’s earlier post in this thread regarding how the Emery-Nichols 1876-CC looked before it was auctioned in 1984. Please see the articles referenced below for more information on the history of 1876-CC pieces, and for information regarding perspectives on dipping. Fortunately, “dipping [is NOT] what everyone rewards.”
TDN, thanks for the info. Why did you buy it and hold it for less than one year? Did you complete a set of business strike 20c pieces?
Blu62, please read these CoinLink articles and comment? Do they answer some of your questions?
Have any contributors to his thread seen the Emery-Nichols piece in 2009, perhaps at the CSNS auction? Has anyone seen the Norweb piece since 2001?
For a while, my goal was to own an example of each of the ultra rarities. As prices rose, my goal then became to own them each one at a time. Then I fell in love with the seated dollar set I was working on and sold off my rarities in order to complete it.
Rusty bought and sold all three 1876-CC twenty centers that were auctioned in 2009. If you want to read more about it, he wrote a great article about it in his Curry's Chronocle Journal in the Winter 2009 edition. The AU58 coin was owned by one family for 130+ years, obtained by a Nevada wagon maker in 1876. What a story behind that coin. Rusty's forum website is http://www.carsoncitycoinclub.com/ if anyone wants to check it out. Here is a link to the Table of contents to the Winter 2009 edition.
Thank you John. Glad to be here. You can get that journal 4 times a year for $20. Even write an article for the journal if you want. Or you can just post on the forum for free. We could use some more people posting there.
Comments
I was wondering about that, because some of the coins shown DO NOT show doubling that I thought was present on ALL 1876 CCs -
Is this correct ? ( i've read this in numerous places )
TD
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>At first I was ready to be completely outraged, as it looks from the above images as though the coin was (quite unnecessarily) dipped sometime after the Heritage auction. However, as the cert number has not changed, I can only assume that the apparent difference in color is only a function of the imaging.
Still, I feel compelled to reiterate that the needless dipping of our national treasures is an outrage in most cases, and that artificial whitening is every bit as execrable as artificial toning.
Regardless, congratulations to Mr. Goe for acquiring a coin that he has dreamed of owning. That is always a wonderful feeling !!
Best,
Sunnywood >>
Well said
<< <i>"......seeing the doubling on the obverse "
I was wondering about that, because some of the coins shown DO NOT show doubling that I thought was present on ALL 1876 CCs -
Is this correct ? ( i've read this in numerous places ) >>
All known specimens were struck with the same doubled obverse die and the same reverse die. Coins that do not have a doubled obverse die are either counterfeit, altered, or a new discovery (which would likely be the biggest news ever for this series).
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
buy the coin not the holder comes to mind here.
<< <i>That is the Emery and Nichols Collection coin. I saw it in its Wayte Raymond page (where it had been for 40+ years) as part of the original collection in a home in upstate New York in the early 1980s. I remember my sense of awe at picking up the page, seeing it was complete, and seeing the doubling on the obverse before turning it over and KNOWING that the CC would be there.
Dipping that coin is a crime against numismatics!!!!! >>
Reports such as this make all the time that I spend on this forum seem very worthwhile. Please tell us more about how this coin looked then and about other coins in the Emery-Nichols collection that you remember.
1876-CC Twenty cent pieces, including those acquired by Goe, are discussed in the following articles: (Do PCGS Forum members think the comments therein are fair and accurate?)
1876-CC 20c pieces, Part 1
1876-CC, Part 2
roadrunner
<< <i>
<< <i>That is the Emery and Nichols Collection coin. I saw it in its Wayte Raymond page (where it had been for 40+ years) as part of the original collection in a home in upstate New York in the early 1980s. I remember my sense of awe at picking up the page, seeing it was complete, and seeing the doubling on the obverse before turning it over and KNOWING that the CC would be there.
Dipping that coin is a crime against numismatics!!!!! >>
Reports such as this make all the time that I spend on this forum seem very worthwhile. Please tell us more about how this coin looked then and about other coins in the Emery-Nichols collection that you remember.
1876-CC Twenty cent pieces, including those acquired by Goe, are discussed in the following articles: (Do PCGS Forum members think the comments therein are fair and accurate?)
1876-CC 20c pieces, Part 1
1876-CC, Part 2 >>
The toning on the silver, especially the proofs, would make you weep with joy. The bronze and copper-nickel pieces, however, were almost all flyspecked. This is typical of long-term storage in Wayte Raymond albums.
The early Walkers were incredible, but I guess the most memorable set other than the 20 centers would be the Barber quarters with the Big Three all gems.
TD
Figured it out, the AU one was giving me issues. I think the 64 images leave a lot to be desired.
<< <i>It's a shame...looks dipped.
Yeah, but it's still worth $500,000 !
Ya gotta ask "How much more would it be worth if it didn't "look" dipped?"
Answer: $500,000
The name is LEE!
I had two pieces at the 1988 ANA. One was the Emery Nichols coin, the other the Norweb specimen. I believe I sold th Emery Nichols coin at the show, although I'm fuzzy on that. But it did not go to Rick Sear.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Is the coin still toned today?
roadrunner
<< <i> In the Superior session of Auction '88 (Cincy ANA) lot 108 was a PCGS MS65 1876-cc 20c piece toned with medium lilac and blue. Description says it last appeared in the Oct 1987 Norweb 1 sale at $63,500. This time it fetched $77,500. My hand note lists Rick Sear as the buyer.
Is the coin still toned today? >>
In a full page CW ad in late 1988, Lustig offered both the Norweb and Emery-Nichols 1876-CC 20c pieces. If Rick Sear was the top bidder at a Summer 1988 auction, then there must be an explanation. He may have been waving a paddle for Lustig? Also, auctions move rapidly and you may have made an error while recording this note.
Roadrunner, did you keep notes regarding the buyers of rarities at many auctions? Do you still attend major auctions? I track pedigrees.
A history of the Norweb coin is included in the following article: It is very likely to be the coin that was auctioned in Oct. 2001.
1876-CC article, Part 2
Roadrunner- Do you know which coin was the toned one?
considering all the eras it's seen come & go. 133 years to silver is indeed, a very long time.
I would think that the new owner has examined it thoroughly and if he's happy enough
to spend that amount of money for it - that really IS all that matters.
Congratulations to him for now owning his dream coin.
Roadrunner, did you keep notes regarding the buyers of rarities at many auctions? Do you still attend major auctions? I track pedigrees.
My auction attendance peaked around 1989. I only occasionally attend them now and generally only if they are held in conjuction with a show that I am attending. I usually jotted down notes on coins I was interested in buying or ones that it seemed appropriate. In Auction '88 I reviewed the majority of the silver type coins in the sale as I was backing up another dealer's grades. Most of the coins were still raw back then. I also try to record bidder numbers on each lot so that later I can go back through the catalog and see what a major buyer generally bought and try to gain some insight from it. It's certainly possible Sear was bidding on behalf of someone else on the 1876-cc (bidder #431). I also listed that the lot hammered at $80K, then crossed it out and put in $75K....and then $77,500....which indicated that there was obvious confusion as to which bidder had the $75K level. There was a 10% "juice" back then as well so the final price paid was $85,250.
Auction '88 was sort of a bell weather sale as the market was just starting to recover from the spring doldrums where money was very tight. This was one of the last times one could have loaded up in tons of nice coins before they really took off by 1989. Just flipping thru the catalog brings back many recollections: for one, the amazing 1896 complete (10 pc) proof set where nothing graded under NGC PF65 (realized $250K). The half eagle graded 67, eagle 65, double eagle 66....possibly the finest intact and original PF set of gold coins up until that time. It was tough to get grades above 65 back then. The set had sold in 1977 for $17K as part of the Fairfield Collecton (ex Harry Lamborn). Marty Haber owned it for the next 10 yrs as part of his amazing type coin collection.
roadrunner
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
My memory may not be perfect, but of this much I am sure. The Norweb was reasonably deeply toned when the Norweb collection was sold. The Emery Nichols coin was only very lightly toned at the time that collection was sold.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>The Emery Nichols coin is the one now owned by Goe.
Do you know which coin was the toned one? >>
Information about the Norweb coin, which has (or at least had) medium toning, is found in an article referenced below (Part 2). It is very likely to be the coin that was offered in a Heritage auction in October 2001. In the PCGS registry, the Driftwood collection is now said to contain the Norweb 1876-CC, and I cannot think of a reason why this would not be true. It is certain that Jay Parrino owned both the Norweb and Goe pieces in the 1990s. Both are now PCGS graded MS-66. As to whether the Goe and Emery-Nichols pieces are the same coin, it is very likely that this is true, but I wonder if it can be concluded with certainty.
In Part 1, it is explained that Goe was the successful bidder for three different 1876-CC 20 pieces in 2009. Of these three, the PCGS graded AU-58 1876-CC has the most toning. I really think Blu62's questions, and questions put forth by others regarding the distinction between the Goe-Emery-Nichols and Norweb pieces, are answered in these two articles:
1876-CC, Part 1
1876-CC, Part 2
Just heard from Rick. According to him, we purchased the coin as a joint venture out of the auction. Later, I bought him out of the coin, and subsequently sold the coin to Mark Yaffe.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Add another 100,000 for the tip.
Camelot
K
No way, no how can the Norweb coin be considered only medium toned. It's rather dark blue, so I'd consider it a medium well done.
I would have liked to have seen it with the goldish tone. It would guess it was better looking then. The NGC 58 example looks to be goldish toned.
In my opinion, the 'dip' and the resulting 'high luster' look to the coin bumped it to an ms66.
I'm not knocking the coin, it's just the way the system works.
This is why we shouldn't knock dipping. It's what everyone rewards.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
<< <i>I was at the Superior auction in 2001 where the Emory Nichols 76CC was offered. At the time, it was blast white I presume from being recently dipped. When I owned the coin a few years ago, it had a light golden overtone on it.
No way, no how can the Norweb coin be considered only medium toned. It's rather dark blue, so I'd consider it a medium well done.
In some pictures, the Emery-Nichols-TDN-Goe coin does seem to have a slight goldish overtone Does anyone who saw it in 2009 wish to comment here on its exact appearance? Is it almost entirely blast white? TDN, are you suggesting that might have been dipped again since you last owned it? When did you own it? I track the pedigrees of Great Rarities.
Blu62, I really think that some of your questions are answered in the two CoinLink articles referenced below. (Please click on both links.) There is a whole paragraph on the colors of the tones on the Pick-Jurgensen-Goe 1876-CC, which is PCGS graded AU-58. Other information about this coin is provided as well. As you seem to be seriously interested in the subject matter, I am curious as to what you think of these articles.
1876-CC, Part 1
1876-CC 20c pieces, Part 2
<< <i>I'll bet you when that 1876-cc 20c was toned (way back) it would have only graded an ms65.
In my opinion, the 'dip' and the resulting 'high luster' look to the coin bumped it to an ms66.
I'm not knocking the coin, it's just the way the system works.
This is why we shouldn't knock dipping. It's what everyone rewards. >>
Mr.DoubleEagle59, I disagree. Both the Norweb and Emery-Nichols pieces were NGC graded MS-65 when Andy Lustig owned them in 1988. The Norweb 1876-CC 20c piece was later graded MS-66 by both services. As far as I know, the Norweb piece was never dipped. My guess is that the Emery-Nichols 1876-CC would have been graded 66 by both services had it never been dipped. There has been some grade-inflation for such coins, since 1988. Moreover, Lustig spoke highly of how it then looked, and see Capt. Henway’s earlier post in this thread regarding how the Emery-Nichols 1876-CC looked before it was auctioned in 1984. Please see the articles referenced below for more information on the history of 1876-CC pieces, and for information regarding perspectives on dipping. Fortunately, “dipping [is NOT] what everyone rewards.”
TDN, thanks for the info. Why did you buy it and hold it for less than one year? Did you complete a set of business strike 20c pieces?
Blu62, please read these CoinLink articles and comment? Do they answer some of your questions?
Have any contributors to his thread seen the Emery-Nichols piece in 2009, perhaps at the CSNS auction? Has anyone seen the Norweb piece since 2001?
1876-CC 20c, Part 1
1876-CC 20c, Part 2
Collecting and Appreciating Naturally Toned Coins, Part 1
http://www.carsoncitycoinclub.com/index.php/Curry-s-Chronicle/Curry-s-Chronicle-Winter-2009.html
john