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Sold the counterfeit $10 gold piece for melt - update in first post

zeebobzeebob Posts: 2,825 ✭
in Precious Metals
I bought a counterfeit $10 gold piece (1912 I think) as an example to remind myself why not to buy raw coins. I paid melt. Now I want to sell the thing for melt.

I know it's fake because it BB'd at ANACs before I bought it - AND if you look at the edge, it's pretty obvious the stars have a sort of seam that my real piece doesn't have. I believe it to be gold based on weight and dims.

1 - Do I deface this with the word COPY?

2 - Where do I sell it? MONEX or APMEX maybe?

Other thoughts welcome.


UPDATE - DEAL CLOSED WITH MIDWEST REFINERIES!

I sent the thing into Midwest Refineries on the 4th. It arrived on the 8th. They decided to pay out $436 on the 9th. Check arrived in my PO box on the 11th or 12th.

Here is the counterfeit coin before I put "Copy" on it and after I put copy on it.

image

This is the paperwork they sent back - I notice they left off stuff like weight received and % of gold.
image

The important bit is the check!
image

And they sent me a sticker. I guess this is for the next package I send in.
image

So I bought this thing for $300 a couple of years ago. I bought it as a counterfeit at "spot price of assumed gold content." I bought it as a reminder to myself of just how easy I am to deceive (you know "buy the book before the coin" kind of a reminder). So now a couple of years later, I don't think I need the reminder anymore and I made $130 bucks or so. That seems like a pretty good deal.

Thank you to Weiss for the heads up on Midwest Refineries as a place to sell scrap gold!

Comments

  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting question.

    A less than honest person might sell it on eBay--even advertising it as counterfeit--knowing the buyer may turn around and re-list it as authentic.

    You could find a local B&M, pawn shop, jewelry store, etc. who is buying gold and sell it to them.

    Or, you could send it to Midwest Refineries. They have a very good reputation and I believe they pay 94% of melt.

    Either of the last two options will need to test it, and unless you're already sure of its content, you may not like the result.

    Me, I'd keep it. Gold is gold. image
    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • zeebobzeebob Posts: 2,825 ✭
    Midwest Refineries... That sounds like a good avenue. I want two things -

    1. money (I paid $300) hope for a bit more with gold being up now.

    2. for this to NOT EVER be sold as genuine

    A refinery seems the way to go. I can deface it. Mail it. They can test it, then hopefully melt it.

    Thank you for the advice - I'm off to ask Dr. Google about Midwest Refineries.
  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Excellent. Looks like they're now paying 95% of melt. Can you post pictures of the coin, and then follow up with what their analysis reads and what they pay? I'd love to see the progression if you go the Midwest route!
    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • MPLunaticMPLunatic Posts: 617 ✭✭
    I would like to second midwest refineries as well, have sent numerous orders and they always get it right and send money quick
  • MoneyLAMoneyLA Posts: 1,825 ✭
    something tells me a counterfeit coin is not going to have the gold content you expect. but good luck with it.

    Isnt there a regulation about selling copies without the word "copy" on the coin? could you get in trouble for selling it without the word "copy" even though you reveal it is just a copy? Just asking, I don't know. but I would hate to see you get into trouble over this.
    Cheers, Alan Mendelson
    www.AlanBestBuys.com
    www.VegasBestBuys.com
  • zeebobzeebob Posts: 2,825 ✭
    No worries. I'll stamp copy across its face per the Hobby Protection Act.

    I'll get a photo before I send it in (before and after "copy") then send it to Midwest.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,238 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sell it on the BST as a counterfeit. There are some that collect counterfeits for reference and educational purposes. Also, a jeweler may give you melt to use it in jewelry.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • zeebobzeebob Posts: 2,825 ✭
    I want to see the thing destroyed. Would feel bad knowing it's out there ready to swindle some other collector.

    The guy the owned it before me (Mr. Alpha) bought it as genuine. He sold it at a local show as genuine to Mr. Bravo. Mr. Bravo came back after showing the coin to another dealer and said the coin was fake. So Mr. Alpha gave Mr. Bravo his money back. Mr. Alpha was telling me the story latter, I asked to see the coin, it looked real enough to me and I thought it would be a good example to keep around to remind myself just how little I actually know about coins. Mr. Alpha offered to sell it to me at melt ($300 at the time for a 1/2 oz gold). I agreed, but Mr. Alpha wanted to send the coin to ANACS to be certain it was fake. ANACS agreed so we swapped my cash for his fake coin.

    I'm trying to pear down my coins, and this fake served it's purpose for me. So I'll sell it now. Well, that and the price of gold is up enough that I hope to at least break even. But I do feel a responsibility to ensure this fake is not used to deceive future collectors. I have the Midwest Refineries address, will mail it off tomorrow.

    Midwest has a cool (if somewhat amateurish) site.
  • guitarwesguitarwes Posts: 9,266 ✭✭✭


    << <i>The guy the owned it before me (Mr. Alpha) bought it as genuine. >>





    You mean "Mr. Omega". image


    I'm glad you're doing the right thing.

    -wes
    @ Elite CNC Routing & Woodworks on Facebook. Check out my work.
    Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
  • adamlaneusadamlaneus Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭
    Propane torch + fake coin = cool heavy blob.

    Providing that the weight and volume of the coin are identical, chances are it has a relatively full complement of real gold. I'm not aware of any cheap alloys that can duplicate the density of gold. Except for tungsten and that is not gold colored, nor is it a metal suitable for striking or pouring.

    Your local jeweler could probably make use of it.
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,238 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Propane torch + fake coin = cool heavy blob. >>



    Gold nugget!!!!!!

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • MoneyLAMoneyLA Posts: 1,825 ✭
    that gave me a good idea... create the gold nugget, and put it under a rock in your back yard.

    then, invite some friends over for a BBQ, and when they are all sitting down, announce to them that "this rock has been bothering me."

    pick up the rock to move it... and voila... a new neighborhood gold rush.

    put it on you tube.
    alert the media.
    cash in on your 15 minutes of fame.

    unless of course you can make the melted blob to resemble a religious Icon?? then some online casino company will pay your millions for it.

    lol
    Cheers, Alan Mendelson
    www.AlanBestBuys.com
    www.VegasBestBuys.com
  • 1jester1jester Posts: 8,637 ✭✭✭
    Gecko might melt it into a bar for you.


    imageimageimage
    .....GOD
    image

    "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9

    "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." -Deut. 6:4-5

    "For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; He will save us." -Isaiah 33:22
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 11,995 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>unless of course you can make the melted blob to resemble a religious Icon?? then some online casino company will pay your millions for it. >>



    Or the New York Times?image
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • zeebobzeebob Posts: 2,825 ✭
    I finally found the darn thing. It was in the wrong safe deposit box stuffed in a 2x2 flip. Anyway, wrote the word "copy" on it and sent it in to Midwest Refineries. Will post results. Here is a composite image of the coin before and after "copy" is scratched into the obverse.

    image
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,238 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'm not sure how you would determine melt value for a fake gold coin without assuming full 900 fineness which may or may not be the case.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,238 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That looks like one of the Beirut counterfeits, which are usually good .900 fine gold, or just a few points less.
    Let us know what it assays at.
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A beautiful piece. Why would I have such contempt for Chinese trade dollars, yet I still find this piece to be a thing of beauty?

    I honestly don't believe the makers of that piece and the other Beirut or Egyptian pieces of the era were trying to deceive. I think they were trying to create a marketable gold bullion piece with a recognized and beautiful design. There is craftsmanship there. Homage.

    The Chinese pieces are ugly, hateful things designed to inflict pain and steal at the same time. They're Nigerian email scams in base metal with bad denticles.

    Sigh. Maybe I'm just stupid or naive. Or both. But that is one hell of a beautiful fake.
    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • zeebobzeebob Posts: 2,825 ✭
    I understand what you mean about it being a nice looking object. I felt more than a tinge of pain gouging in the word copy with a pocket knife.

    I might be wrong, but I think the reason these were made was to circumvent US Laws about importing gold bullion. I think there was an exception for importing gold coins - so the guys from the mid-east that wanted to bring in gold made these coins up to fool customs and then traded them like bullion here. Although I gather these are often enough found in the hands of numismatic collectors that the counterfeits began to trade with their numismatic premium fully ascribed to the counterfeit coin.

    If I got that wrong, I would be grateful if someone would correct me.
  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,941 ✭✭✭✭✭
    BUMP for the update. Very cool results!!!! image
    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • goingbrokegoingbroke Posts: 1,410
    You can buy this one of these and you dont have to carve copy on it!
    Many successful BST transactions ajia
    (x2,Meltdown),cajun,Swampboy,SeaEagleCoins,InYHWHWeTrust, bstat1020,Spooly,timrutnat,oilstates200, vpr, guitarwes,
    mariner67, and Mikes coins
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,238 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So, you got about 91% of the hypothetical gold value, assuming that it is good gold. That is very fair, and better than paying an assay fee.
    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • Norseman88Norseman88 Posts: 962
    Hey you made a decent profit and din't pass it on to an unsuspecting collector so I'd say you did very well.
  • gecko109gecko109 Posts: 8,231 ✭


    << <i>So, you got about 91% of the hypothetical gold value, assuming that it is good gold. That is very fair, and better than paying an assay fee.
    TD >>




    I calculate it a bit differently Tom. Tell me where I went wrong:


    Weight = .48 oz
    Fineness = .900 (assuming its "good gold")
    That day's market price = $992

    .48 oz x .900 = .432 oz pure gold

    .432 oz x $992 = $428 Actual melt value.

    OP got $436 for it, so he got about 102% of actual melt.


    Where did my math betray me? image
  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 46,238 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>.48 oz x .900 = .432 oz pure gold >>



    0.48 is the gold content AFTER you subtract the weight of the alloy. I'm talking about a real gold eagle, of course.

    Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
    "Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
    "Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire

  • gecko109gecko109 Posts: 8,231 ✭


    << <i>

    << <i>.48 oz x .900 = .432 oz pure gold >>



    0.48 is the gold content AFTER you subtract the weight of the alloy. I'm talking about a real gold eagle, of course. >>





    You are 100% right!


    So now we have:

    .48 x $992 = $476 actual melt value.

    436/476 = 91% just like Tom said.

    Thanks Perry.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,238 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Just say "D'OH!!!"

    image
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • sinin1sinin1 Posts: 7,500 ✭
    I like what you did to it



    would it be considered graffiti or obverse scratch?
  • tydyetydye Posts: 3,894 ✭✭✭
    That is great that yo sent in the counterfeit to be melted.
    One dealer locally destroys every counterfeit he purchases (even better ones such as the omegas) before sending them to the refiner just to be sure. He also has a sizable collection of counterfeit 1909-s vdbs that he wont sell for any price.
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