While I absolutely applaud your research and efforts to bust these pack resealers, your recommendation of banning pre-1980 inserts makes eBay's approach seem much more reasonable. These are highly collected and to ban them to get rid of resealed packs makes about as much sense as banning pre-1980 cards all together. I can see regulating the wrappers to some degree (i.e. someone can't sell a more than 2 wrappers at a time), banning the inserts would seem to be throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water to me.
The REAL Murph would not have said such a thing. Unless he was BizarroMurph. OMG, its BizarroMurph!!!! Remember when he had his mole removed and his average plummeted 50 pts? I do. Hook em Horns!!!!
Kiss me once, shame on you. Kiss me twice.....let's party.
<< <i>While I absolutely applaud your research and efforts to bust these pack resealers, your recommendation of banning pre-1980 inserts makes eBay's approach seem much more reasonable. These are highly collected and to ban them to get rid of resealed packs makes about as much sense as banning pre-1980 cards all together. I can see regulating the wrappers to some degree (i.e. someone can't sell a more than 2 wrappers at a time), banning the inserts would seem to be throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water to me.
Snorto~ >>
/////////////////////////////////////
I also see an insert-ban as overreaching.
......
The crooks routinely buy HUNDREDS of single wrappers from dozens of DIFFERENT sellers.
Placing per-listing quantity limits would have no impact.
EBAY banned designer-fashion wrappers to deter fraud. The pack fraud on EBAY is now FAR more out of control than the use of designer-fashion wrapping paper ever was.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
With respect to inserts it was quite obvious when studying the buying habits of some of these pack counterfeiters that they were buying these inserts along with the wrappers to contruct these packs.
I simply mentioned to ebay that wrappers was the major problem and they should without question be banned. Because inserts are also a tool of the more "sophisticated" counterfeiter I suggested to ebay they should look at these as well.
Remember that the "sophisticated" counterfeiter who is trying to fool Gai and Psa will require these inserts and go to ebay to acquire them.
I was attempting to outline for ebay the whole dynamics of vintage pack counterfeiting and making simple recommendations for their consideration to counteract both the rudimentary and sophisticated counterfeiter.
No matter what is banned (or not) it will always leave certain people upset. Any measures taken by ebay in an attempt to combat this counterfeiting will upset people also. There are no simple answers. The system is imperfect but at least there is a larger awareness of this problem and with this awareness changes are already being instituted. Its a start and let's see where it goes from here.
"You tell 'em I'm coming...and hell's coming with me"--Wyatt Earp
<< <i>Banning sales of wax wrappers would have been wrong. They are very collectible in their own right. >>
////////
I know exactly how you feel and I felt the same way for a long time, but I found - after observing the massive amount of fraud - that I was mistaken.
EBAY bans all kinds of "highly collectible" items. Such bans are often implemented for the sole purpose of "protecting the sensibilities" of consumers. A ban on pack-counterfeiting supplies would help protect the dollars of consumers, AND slow the pollution of the pack pool.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Just learned that (waxgold) is no longer a registered member of ebay. Ebay has also deleted the listing of waxgold's counterfeit '73 bb wax pack I highlighted--meaning that the listing now shows up as an "invalid" number.
I don't know if ebay kicked waxgold off or if he NARU'ed himself...not sure how that works.
All his other alias ID's are active however.
"You tell 'em I'm coming...and hell's coming with me"--Wyatt Earp
<< <i>Just learned that (waxgold) is no longer a registered member of ebay. Ebay has also deleted the listing of waxgold's counterfeit '73 bb wax pack I highlighted--meaning that the listing now shows up as an "invalid" number.
I don't know if ebay kicked waxgold off or if he NARU'ed himself...not sure how that works.
All his other alias ID's are active however. >>
//////////////////
It's a good start.
More will fall, soon.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
The primary buyers of bulk wrappers are scammers. The primary buyers of inserts like '69 Deckle Edge, '68 Game, etc. are card collectors who are building sets.
while i admire your detective work, you have just made it impossible for thousands of legitimate sellers to list their goods. whats next? forcing sellers to sell only slabbed cards? once you get the ball rolling...who knows what will happen with this incompetent moron in charge at Ebay. They have slowly, but surely ruined the selling experience for most sellers.
<< <i>while i admire your detective work, you have just made it impossible for thousands of legitimate sellers to list their goods. whats next? forcing sellers to sell only slabbed cards? once you get the ball rolling...who knows what will happen with this incompetent moron in charge at Ebay. They have slowly, but surely ruined the selling experience for most sellers. >>
/////////////////
summer's detective work provided the impetus for the prospective change.
The CRIMINAL conduct of the scamsters was the cause of making such a change necessary.
IF Steve Hart is anywhere near right about his "75% junk" estimate, EBAY has no real choice but to kill the guilty and the innocent.
.......
I deal with EBAY employees almost everday. I can count on two hands the number of employees in the WHOLE outfit that I think are even capable of grasping the counterfeit pack issue. Stopping the counterfeiters one at a time is not something EBAY would be interested in undertaking.....it would cost a BUNCH of money to do so; more money than they will lose by banning ALL ungraded packs.
The company is simply NOT set up to deal with fraudulent merchandise of any type.
It is easy to see by the 100s of hours that summerof68 has spent on the project that ANY ala carte policing by EBAY is NOT feasible. He caught a few out of the DOZENS (maybe hundreds) that are active.
Of course, if TOPPS got active in VeRO - and funded the effort - a more reasonable remedy might be available.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
I do want to reinterate that I told ebay that prohibiting the sale of pre-80 vintage wrappers was (by far) the single best thing they can do to combat pack counterfeiting.
I also told ebay that inserts are also a component used by the "sophisticated" pack counterfeiter and they should look at the idea of banning pre-80 inserts as well.
I'm a nobody in this hobby and ebay obviously decided against (both) my suggestions.
They've made no changes in their insert policies and people can still purchase inserts on ebay (as well as wrappers). I really feel board members are expressing far more concern regarding inserts than any similar concern I expressed to ebay. 90% of my discussion with ebay concerned wrappers and multiple user ID's.
"You tell 'em I'm coming...and hell's coming with me"--Wyatt Earp
Every man, women and worm has a right to express itself!
rd
P.S. anyone who would mock the efforts of summerof68's yeoman efforts, alerting many here to major resealing frauds, needs to get their head examined, or if a segmented worm, regrow a new one!
Even though ebay's new policy will affect many good sellers, I think they had to implement their new policy. I've read tons of threads and blogs about on repacking sellers and many of those sellers had very good ebay selling ratings. That means many of the buyers were buying the packs based on the sellers ratings and probably never realized what was going on.
Just looking at the prices those vintage wrappers can realize on fee-bay, I cannot imagine the multitude and cross sections of sellers voluntarily stop selling wax wrappers, empty boxes, inserts, etc.
I'm sure many are just trying to recoup some bucks. And I'm sure many are not even aware that by selling their wrappers, are contributing to a massive resealing effort, and if Steve Hart is correct about 75% of packs on ebay are fugazy, it effects everyone here one way or another.
Maybe the only answer IS law enforcement cracking down on these fraudsters? And secondly, having folks like summerof68 exposing some of them is a big step in the right direction.
And a "pox on ebay"!
rd
P.S. I hope principals at PSA have read summerof68's threads and take extra care when they grade vintage wax?
Summers work is awesome. I never expected ebay to react either. And certainly never expected them to act properly. But I'm happy that something is happening, and going by what DALEMURPHY03 posted, I'm thinking the scammers are pissed.
I feel bad for guys like thedutymon, I've bought some packs from him in the past and it's sad to see honest sellers getting hurt by this.
<< <i>I do want to reinterate that I told ebay that prohibiting the sale of pre-80 vintage wrappers was (by far) the single best thing they can do to combat pack counterfeiting.
I also told ebay that inserts are also a component used by the "sophisticated" pack counterfeiter and they should look at the idea of banning pre-80 inserts as well.
I'm a nobody in this hobby and ebay obviously decided against (both) my suggestions.
They've made no changes in their insert policies and people can still purchase inserts on ebay (as well as wrappers). I really feel board members are expressing far more concern regarding inserts than any similar concern I expressed to ebay. 90% of my discussion with ebay concerned wrappers and multiple user ID's. >>
A few years ago I fell victim to a resealed box of 1978 Topps from ebay. That was the first and last time I bought pre-1980s wax from ebay. If someone like summerof68 posted something like this back then, it would have saved me from making that mistake. I appreciate what he did, and whether you like it or not, this move will save hundreds or thousands of people from making the mistake of trusting someone about their "sealed" packs on ebay. I have a good feeling that if there's someone mad about this move, then they're probably a scammer themselves.
Identifying and removing bad people selling bad packs is a good thing. Ebay getting input from one person to create this policy was not a good thing. Remember that the bad guys are the ones who need to be identified and punished, not the thousands of good collectors and sellers of packs, wrappers, and inserts. Suggesting the ban of ungraded packs isn't too well thought. It doesn't take into consideration the many good buyers and sellers of these items or the impracticality of grading lower value packs. The impact it has on good people's ability to collect these items is not good. Suggesting the ban of wrappers and inserts is idiotic when you think about the thousands of good people who sell and collect these items. To think that banning the sale of a 1971 Coin or 1968 Deckle is needed to stop bad pack sellers is lunacy. You'd have to ban graded examples of those too as bad people would only pop them out. Anybody with sets of inserts on the registry would be need to be watched. Packs are still nothing without the actual cards inside, so the next logical step to the idicoy would be to ban the sale of all raw cards. But then graded cards would have to go because the bad people could pop them out to make packs. When you get done banning all the stuff that is needed to make packs, all that will be allowed to be sold will be the graded unopened packs themselves. Opening and collecting the cards inside would no longer be practical.
I totally hear what you're saying KB. Let's let this thing play out and see where it goes. Usually, the initial reaction is over-reaching, which is what I think has happened here. However, in my opinion, at least some action is better than nothing at all. This gets the issue out in the open and the "ball rolling". It'll probably evolve over the coming months into what I hope would be a more optimal solution.
Poofer I agree with you 100%. Ebay did in fact overreact. They should have implemented lower-measure restrictions and assessed their impact. Then if necessary add or refine the existing restrictions.
Ebay should of implemented a gradual and surgical approach however they jumped in and adopted a much more comprehensive policy.
It's my gut feeling that once ebay was made aware of the actual scope of the problem they simply made a quick, knee-jerk decision. I'm sure this decision will become more refined and better tailored to suit the ethical pack seller.
It makes sense that ebay will eventually figure out a policy that will tolerate an "acceptable" amount of fraud while at the same time allowing pack sellers to sell most of their material.
Let's hope that when the dust settles ebay will be a much safer place for pack buyers to spend their money.
"You tell 'em I'm coming...and hell's coming with me"--Wyatt Earp
"...Let's hope that when the dust settles ebay will be a much safer place for pack buyers to spend their money. .."
/////////////////
The hard fact is that slabbed/authenticated packs are "safer" to buy/sell than are unknown-origin raw packs.
IF Steve Hart is just a little bit right about his "75% junk" opinion, there is no way to police such a polluted pool. It just needs to be shut down.
If we were talking about any other commodity, we would be shocked if we learned that 5% of the items sold were "no good." But, even 5% is too large a number for EBAY to police out of business by any culling method I can think of.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Years ago when I joined ebay it was reasonably safe to purchase pre-80 unopened packs--both certified and raw. However in subsequent years and especially in the last 18 months ebay has literally become a "dumping ground" for counterfeit and resealed vintage packs (both raw and certified).
One certification company in particular has become the "slabber of choice" for the more disciplined pack counterfeiters. This has resulted in ebay being saturated with slabbed illegitimate packs.
I agree with Steve Hart's assessment of 75%. When you take into consideration the totality of the amounts of counterfeit and resealed vintage packs on ebay (both raw and certified) one can see where Steve comes up with that number.
So I guess it all comes down to these three choices:
1) Do we make sweeping, comprehensive changes aimed only at protecting the buyer? 2) Or do we leave things as is so that no seller (ethical or unethical) is impeded in their efforts to sell? 3) Or do we reach a compromise by adopting a policy that will reduce fraud while letting ethical sellers sell their product in a more restrictive selling environment?
I know where my choice lies. And I would guess ebay will go with number three. But to what degree they choose to favor either sellers or buyers is yet to be seen.
"You tell 'em I'm coming...and hell's coming with me"--Wyatt Earp
In light of all these potential changes, it would be nice if PSA started authenticating racks and wax or cello boxes so that collectors could choose to slab them if they were interested in selling them on ebay. But the demand is not there, and I don't see PSA doing that anytime soon. Maybe these changes will prompt Joe O. to reconsider in light of the situation, but my guess is probably not. Thta leaves GAI as the only option for slabbing rack packs or wax and cello boxes, and if they don't go bankrupt while your order is in process you may get your packs back in bout 10 or 11 months. And of course even if you get the packs back slabbed in the end, they'll be stigmatized with the "new" GAI flip.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Comments
Snorto~
Kiss me twice.....let's party.
<< <i>While I absolutely applaud your research and efforts to bust these pack resealers, your recommendation of banning pre-1980 inserts makes eBay's approach seem much more reasonable. These are highly collected and to ban them to get rid of resealed packs makes about as much sense as banning pre-1980 cards all together. I can see regulating the wrappers to some degree (i.e. someone can't sell a more than 2 wrappers at a time), banning the inserts would seem to be throwing the proverbial baby out with the bath water to me.
Snorto~ >>
/////////////////////////////////////
I also see an insert-ban as overreaching.
......
The crooks routinely buy HUNDREDS of single wrappers from
dozens of DIFFERENT sellers.
Placing per-listing quantity limits would have no impact.
EBAY banned designer-fashion wrappers to deter fraud. The
pack fraud on EBAY is now FAR more out of control than the
use of designer-fashion wrapping paper ever was.
I simply mentioned to ebay that wrappers was the major problem and they should without question be banned. Because inserts are also a tool of the more "sophisticated" counterfeiter I suggested to ebay they should look at these as well.
Remember that the "sophisticated" counterfeiter who is trying to fool Gai and Psa will require these inserts and go to ebay to acquire them.
I was attempting to outline for ebay the whole dynamics of vintage pack counterfeiting and making simple recommendations for their consideration to counteract both the rudimentary and sophisticated counterfeiter.
No matter what is banned (or not) it will always leave certain people upset. Any measures taken by ebay in an attempt to combat this counterfeiting will upset people also. There are no simple answers. The system is imperfect but at least there is a larger awareness of this problem and with this awareness changes are already being instituted. Its a start and let's see where it goes from here.
<< <i>Banning sales of wax wrappers would have been wrong. They are very collectible in their own right. >>
////////
I know exactly how you feel and I felt the same way for a long time,
but I found - after observing the massive amount of fraud - that I
was mistaken.
EBAY bans all kinds of "highly collectible" items. Such bans are often
implemented for the sole purpose of "protecting the sensibilities" of
consumers. A ban on pack-counterfeiting supplies would help protect
the dollars of consumers, AND slow the pollution of the pack pool.
<< <i>Banning sales of wax wrappers would have been wrong. They are very collectible in their own right. >>
Purchasing 2 or 3 '75 wax wrappers for your collection is a lot different than purchasing 200 or 300 wax wrappers for your "collection," though.
I've said for some time, a reputable TPG needs to start slabbing wax wrappers.
And to DaleMurphy03...why waste the time with an ALT if you know you'll be banned within a couple of days? Seems kind of pointless and insignificant.
I don't know if ebay kicked waxgold off or if he NARU'ed himself...not sure how that works.
All his other alias ID's are active however.
<< <i>Just learned that (waxgold) is no longer a registered member of ebay. Ebay has also deleted the listing of waxgold's counterfeit '73 bb wax pack I highlighted--meaning that the listing now shows up as an "invalid" number.
I don't know if ebay kicked waxgold off or if he NARU'ed himself...not sure how that works.
All his other alias ID's are active however. >>
//////////////////
It's a good start.
More will fall, soon.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>What's the rationale for not allowing the sale of inserts?...... >>
////////////////
There may not be one that will fly very well.
Using the "primary purpose" test:
The primary purpose of the inserts is as a collectible.
The primary purpose of the empty wrappers is to meet an essential element of the counterfeiting.
The inserts are NOT essential to the counterfeiting. The wrappers are.
.............
In ordinary commerce, lots of things that are harmless when used
properly are banned/regulated SIMPLY because they MIGHT be used
improperly.
Cold and sinus capsules are just one example of the concept.
<< <i>while i admire your detective work, you have just made it impossible for thousands of legitimate sellers to list their goods. whats next? forcing sellers to sell only slabbed cards? once you get the ball rolling...who knows what will happen with this incompetent moron in charge at Ebay. They have slowly, but surely ruined the selling experience for most sellers. >>
/////////////////
summer's detective work provided the impetus for the prospective change.
The CRIMINAL conduct of the scamsters was the cause of making such a
change necessary.
IF Steve Hart is anywhere near right about his "75% junk" estimate, EBAY
has no real choice but to kill the guilty and the innocent.
.......
I deal with EBAY employees almost everday. I can count on two hands the number of
employees in the WHOLE outfit that I think are even capable of grasping the counterfeit
pack issue. Stopping the counterfeiters one at a time is not something EBAY would be
interested in undertaking.....it would cost a BUNCH of money to do so; more money
than they will lose by banning ALL ungraded packs.
The company is simply NOT set up to deal with fraudulent merchandise of any type.
It is easy to see by the 100s of hours that summerof68 has spent on the project that
ANY ala carte policing by EBAY is NOT feasible. He caught a few out of the DOZENS
(maybe hundreds) that are active.
Of course, if TOPPS got active in VeRO - and funded the effort - a more reasonable
remedy might be available.
"Molon Labe"
I also told ebay that inserts are also a component used by the "sophisticated" pack counterfeiter and they should look at the idea of banning pre-80 inserts as well.
I'm a nobody in this hobby and ebay obviously decided against (both) my suggestions.
They've made no changes in their insert policies and people can still purchase inserts on ebay (as well as wrappers). I really feel board members are expressing far more concern regarding inserts than any similar concern I expressed to ebay. 90% of my discussion with ebay concerned wrappers and multiple user ID's.
~George Carlin~
Leave DALEMURPHY03 alone pleeeeeeeeze!
Every man, women and worm has a right to express itself!
rd
P.S. anyone who would mock the efforts of summerof68's yeoman efforts, alerting many here to major resealing frauds, needs to get their head examined, or if a segmented worm, regrow a new one!
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
~George Carlin>>>
carlin would beat dale to death with a rubber.... thing
<< <i> or if a segmented worm, regrow a new one! >>
Huh??? Whaa??? lol
<< <i><<if crime fighters fight crime, and.......what do freedom fighters fight?
~George Carlin>>>
george would beat dale to death
nice avatar ~ (not that dancing fo0l one either!)
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
<< <i>
<< <i> or if a segmented worm, regrow a new one! >>
Huh??? Whaa??? lol >>
No, you were right on with the Huh???
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
Brian
Just looking at the prices those vintage wrappers can realize on fee-bay, I cannot imagine the multitude and cross sections of sellers voluntarily stop selling wax wrappers, empty boxes, inserts, etc.
I'm sure many are just trying to recoup some bucks. And I'm sure many are not even aware that by selling their wrappers, are contributing to a massive resealing effort, and if Steve Hart is correct about 75% of packs on ebay are fugazy, it effects everyone here one way or another.
Maybe the only answer IS law enforcement cracking down on these fraudsters? And secondly, having folks like summerof68 exposing some of them is a big step in the right direction.
And a "pox on ebay"!
rd
P.S. I hope principals at PSA have read summerof68's threads and take extra care when they grade vintage wax?
Quicksilver Messenger Service - Smokestack Lightning (Live) 1968
Quicksilver Messenger Service - The Hat (Live) 1971
Summers work is awesome. I never expected ebay to react either. And certainly never expected them to act properly. But I'm happy that something is happening, and going by what DALEMURPHY03 posted, I'm thinking the scammers are pissed.
I feel bad for guys like thedutymon, I've bought some packs from him in the past and it's sad to see honest sellers getting hurt by this.
<< <i>I do want to reinterate that I told ebay that prohibiting the sale of pre-80 vintage wrappers was (by far) the single best thing they can do to combat pack counterfeiting.
I also told ebay that inserts are also a component used by the "sophisticated" pack counterfeiter and they should look at the idea of banning pre-80 inserts as well.
I'm a nobody in this hobby and ebay obviously decided against (both) my suggestions.
They've made no changes in their insert policies and people can still purchase inserts on ebay (as well as wrappers). I really feel board members are expressing far more concern regarding inserts than any similar concern I expressed to ebay. 90% of my discussion with ebay concerned wrappers and multiple user ID's. >>
You are a savior
<< <i>while i admire your detective work, you have just made it impossible for thousands of legitimate sellers to list their goods. >>
Actually summer didn't make the change, eBay did.
and the monster tilts......this is quite historic, people. don't forget it.
Steve
Ebay should of implemented a gradual and surgical approach however they jumped in and adopted a much more comprehensive policy.
It's my gut feeling that once ebay was made aware of the actual scope of the problem they simply made a quick, knee-jerk decision. I'm sure this decision will become more refined and better tailored to suit the ethical pack seller.
It makes sense that ebay will eventually figure out a policy that will tolerate an "acceptable" amount of fraud while at the same time allowing pack sellers to sell most of their material.
Let's hope that when the dust settles ebay will be a much safer place for pack buyers to spend their money.
/////////////////
The hard fact is that slabbed/authenticated packs are "safer"
to buy/sell than are unknown-origin raw packs.
IF Steve Hart is just a little bit right about his "75% junk" opinion,
there is no way to police such a polluted pool. It just needs to be
shut down.
If we were talking about any other commodity, we would be shocked
if we learned that 5% of the items sold were "no good." But, even
5% is too large a number for EBAY to police out of business by any
culling method I can think of.
Years ago when I joined ebay it was reasonably safe to purchase pre-80 unopened packs--both certified and raw. However in subsequent years and especially in the last 18 months ebay has literally become a "dumping ground" for counterfeit and resealed vintage packs (both raw and certified).
One certification company in particular has become the "slabber of choice" for the more disciplined pack counterfeiters. This has resulted in ebay being saturated with slabbed illegitimate packs.
I agree with Steve Hart's assessment of 75%. When you take into consideration the totality of the amounts of counterfeit and resealed vintage packs on ebay (both raw and certified) one can see where Steve comes up with that number.
So I guess it all comes down to these three choices:
1) Do we make sweeping, comprehensive changes aimed only at
protecting the buyer?
2) Or do we leave things as is so that no seller (ethical or unethical)
is impeded in their efforts to sell?
3) Or do we reach a compromise by adopting a policy that will
reduce fraud while letting ethical sellers sell their product in a
more restrictive selling environment?
I know where my choice lies. And I would guess ebay will go with number three. But to what degree they choose to favor either sellers or buyers is yet to be seen.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.