PQ coins are money losers for the average collector and big money makers for the high end collector
pennyannie
Posts: 3,929 ✭✭✭
I have never made any money on PQ coins that i bought that were priced well over greysheet ask even holding them for years. The coins were very nice in my opinion and had great eye appeal and problem free. ( Mainly proofs from before 1900) Trying to sell them to dealers resulted offers well back of grey sheet bid. I and most average collectors have a hard time taking a picture that truly captures the coin in its best light. Most of the coins sold for over ask on ebay but not a lot over. Buy offers from Heritage were around dealer bid/ask on some of them, but not more than.
The other coins that i owned that were good , solid for the grade coins brought the same offers and sold for the same. There was not any real difference in price. While i knew what coins were PQ and others that actually saw the coins in hand would agree on the ones that were PQ BUT it is hard to convince Joe the ebay bidder in Kansas of that and he would stop placing bids at around dealer bid/ask on any coins.
I would like for every coin in my collection to be a undergraded PQ eye appealing coin to the max, that is probably a bad idea for most collectors??? If a coin collector has a hard time trying to come out on top, i would imagine that after he/she died the family would do even worse trying to dispose of the coins?
Now you take the upper top tier collector buying rare pre 1800 gold, silver dollars and very rare hard to find coins it does not seem to bother the pricing as bad on those. It seems most of those coins are always sold at auction and have collectors drooling and lusting over them, just waiting to offer moon money for the chance to add to the collection.
The other coins that i owned that were good , solid for the grade coins brought the same offers and sold for the same. There was not any real difference in price. While i knew what coins were PQ and others that actually saw the coins in hand would agree on the ones that were PQ BUT it is hard to convince Joe the ebay bidder in Kansas of that and he would stop placing bids at around dealer bid/ask on any coins.
I would like for every coin in my collection to be a undergraded PQ eye appealing coin to the max, that is probably a bad idea for most collectors??? If a coin collector has a hard time trying to come out on top, i would imagine that after he/she died the family would do even worse trying to dispose of the coins?
Now you take the upper top tier collector buying rare pre 1800 gold, silver dollars and very rare hard to find coins it does not seem to bother the pricing as bad on those. It seems most of those coins are always sold at auction and have collectors drooling and lusting over them, just waiting to offer moon money for the chance to add to the collection.
Mark
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
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Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
It has nothing to do with PQ and everything to do with overpaying for the piece in the first place.
I've collected only PQ/eye-appealing coins for over a decade and I've only very rarely lost money on a coin after holding it for years. That is, about 90% of the time I make a nice profit even after buying the coin for well over sheet prices. Of course I only sell my coins to other collectors that appreciate the quality and are willing to pay extra for it. Not to dealers....in most cases these days dealers will ONLY offer you sheet IF your coin is PQ.
<< <i>Totally agree. Pay a high premium over sheet prices for a so called PQ coin and then just try to get that premium back when you try selling that coin to a dealer. Good luck with that. >>
Are you saying that a better strategy would be to buy the least expensive example you can find of any particular grade?
I always look at an average so to speak, I may but a few at bargin prices and a few at are overpriced some right on the money, in the end they all seem to average out.
And I still take out my collection and just look at, as I have off and on since the early 60's when I was a kid collecting coins.
Enjoy the hobby.
"If I say something in the woods, and my wife isn't around to hear it. Am I still wrong?"
When you are selling to a dealer, you are going to sell at a wholesale level to someone who spends every day trying to “buy right.” And so good luck trying to recover your PQ premium. Obviously, you would be in a better bargaining position as a seller if you had a condition census or rare piece that the dealer knows he can quickly flip to a customer or sell at a big mark-up or that the dealer fears will be scarfed up by a competitor if he does not buy it.
On the other hand, if you do not buy PQ coins, dealers wont offer you anything when you want to sell – they will just pass. So if you want to have dealers as a source of liquidity you need to have quality to sell, even if it means selling at a loss.
CG
<< <i>P.Q proof coins pre 1900 would seem to me to be the meat and potato's of Numismatics
Disagree. Not proofs, business strikes. Many proofs were saved by collectors, not so with many of the business issues which were mostly used in commerce and not saved in gem. Of course it varies greatly by series and dates, but as a rule I'd go with the biz strikes. Of course proofs pre-1850 or so are another story. Just my two cents...
john
but priced accordingly. If you carefully select among these you can
even find some upgrade candidates. Sellers like to pretend all their
coins are high end. They aren't.
Paying premiums in the market is far easier than getting them back.
<< <i>
<< <i>Totally agree. Pay a high premium over sheet prices for a so called PQ coin and then just try to get that premium back when you try selling that coin to a dealer. Good luck with that. >>
Are you saying that a better strategy would be to buy the least expensive example you can find of any particular grade? >>
No. Buy nice coins but don't overpay for them. Such coins are out there.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>PQ coins do not have to cost a premium, Be selective and disaplined, don't be afraid to walk away if you think its overpriced. >>
Bingo!!!
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
siliconvalleycoins.com
your profit on the volume.
Camelot
i'm quick to say i've never figured out the "safe bet" of buying and selling as lord knows i wasn't intended to be good at all things
i think something curly had stated makes alot of sense in buying coins that when shown to others get a "is that coin for sale?" reply is grounds for the true P.Q. you speak of
true P.Q.'s sell themself and price takes second stance and are the true keepers in this sea of coins
it's solid advice that the best "investment" one can make is a good camera and the time to dial in your skills with it but important element too lay in...having enough humility (which you do) to follow a good lead....many who have great buying and selling skills only need us to ask for advice is all...a good mentor will take us where we thought we never could go
watch and see...some here ask opinions in threads if a coin should be bought from others....risking losing it's opportunity of acquisition over not buying before others chime in...advise of others and those who seek it i seem to think fair well where i'm quick to my pride and jump alot...on my own
something gets lost when the investment or financial losses or gains take paramount though
Ive been pretty lucky in this hobby so far and the few slabbed coins Ive bought and thought were PQ, were. I didnt reholder them, I sold them to a few select dealers and a few select collectors. And on 4 out of 5 coins brought more than double other pieces graded a point higher, the 5th brought triple as it was clearly a gold sticker coin. No, it didnt have a sticker but the dealer knew what it was.
Also, the coins I sold were a really tricky sector of the market and I was lucky my first time out.
Good luck and remember, its just a hobby, have some fun.
<< <i>
Paying premiums in the market is far easier than getting them back. >>
I agree, unless you happen to be buying Whale-sized coins.
Check out my current listings: https://ebay.com/sch/khunt/m.html?_ipg=200&_sop=12&_rdc=1
in general, tho- life gets easier meeting a buyer's demand than being the seller hoping to conjure up demand. (and being able to sell at one's leisure, picking one's spots)
1879-O{Rev}: 1st coin of my "secret set"
The coins that go up in grade over the years are the ones that cost more when purchased. They are also the ones that bring me the most enjoyment as I'd much rather gaze at a truly PQ for the grade coin that cost me a premium than a barely made it 'bargain'.
I've paid a little over "ask" for some Proof coins from that era, but never way over ask. I also buy mostly PR-64 coins that I like. I've seen a lot of piece in PR-65 and 66 holders that I didn't like a bit. Some of them were fully original, but they had toning issues (dull, spots lacked eye appeal) that did not impress me favorably.
Secondly, you need to get an idea as to the dealers that pay decent prices. In this market, I can see why no one is paying well. But before this era, some dealers would pay fair prices. Sometimes it’s better to consign coins to a dealer you trust or consign the coins to auction. When you are running around a bourse to see something, many dealers will make only low ball offers. It shouldn’t be that way, but a lot of dealers have attitude that people who are shopping coins on the floor deserve low ball offers.
And yes, I was a dealer, and for the most part I was stronger buyer than most other dealers IF I could use the coins. That is the key. The dealers must have a need for the coins in order for you to get a fair offer.
over exuberance of the last few years. welcome to reality!
dealers sell stuff. you buy it. you try to sell it and 99% of cases you will get less
then you paid! amazing stuff that. get used to it. that is normal.
you pay retail. dealers when buying back pay significantly less then what they sell
it for.
normally making money in a sane hobby is difficult unless you have a stream of chumps
looking to sell to you for a fraction of what they paid.
or you put in massive amounts of leg work like some forum members here and find the
jewels in the rough. that ain't much fun either when you add up the time you spend for
the amount of reward you get from it.
You are correct to some degree. 2 of the coins I got for what another piece in the same grade would bring, one of the others sat on Heritages site as a buyitnow for months, until I bought it for a song, and the other I paid a slight premium to get. The one that sat on Heritage was my best buy, a 63 that sold for almost 66 money.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Ebay Joe is not the guy who would ever pay PQ money unless the coin in question is in a very old holder and looks fabulous in the photo. And in that case sharp dealers are long time collectors will swoop in and beat Joe's brains out any ways. If you have a great coin for the grade the right dealers will pay the premium. But you have to know you have that type of coin and to stand firm until you get your price. The results at auctions from top dealers will show that they indeed pay for top quality. But those coins tend to be the exception rather than the rule. There are a number of top dealers at any large national coin show who deal in pq coins and aren't afraid to pay premiums for them. But if the collector pays too much up front you'll probably never get it back.
Also agree with jhdfla that it's usually either to get the premium back on MS coins. The fact that a well hidden hairline or two can escape many a trained eye can turn your PQ wonder proof into an also ran. Trying to decipher the quality of mirrors on 19th century proofs through deeper toning and scuffed up plastic is much harder than on MS coins.
Paying solid for the grade money for coins that are low end for the grade is even a bigger money losing proposition. This is where the majority of collectors fall down. In this case you can lose 50% of what you paid rather than a smaller PQ premium of say 10-20%.
roadrunner
I agree. PQ is relative to the specific collector and how much they are willing to pay. A dealer can usually keep these coins in stock until the right fly uh....I mean collector comes along!
When the collector goes to sell, the dealer will always state how difficult it is to move such a coin and therefore lowball the seller. It then becomes the sellers responsibility on whether or not to accept the offer.
This is probably true with most coins and is not necessarily limited to PQ coins.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I have to disagree, if you have a few nice pieces in a generally ho hum collection and you are taking it to the corner dealer, yes, you will get clipped. If you have an overall PQ collection there will be dealers and auctioneers who know you who will be happy to sell your coins for you or buy them. >>
the thing is though, most coins are ho hum. not everyone can own a PQ collection
of coins. what percentage of the market of US coins can be considered PQ? 5% perhaps?
i am also getting the feeling those who do well selling their good looking coins have
contacts that go very deep. These contacts are known to spend a lot of money on coins
and do not hesitate to pay up for something special. that alone can make the difference
as you sort of mention above. instead of dealers and auctioneers... you go right to the
collector who wants it the most. tom is a good example of that i think.
also note we have been experiencing a rise in prices over the last few years. how will
the experience of selling coins change today and tomorrow with a much softer atmosphere?
<< <i>
The coins that go up in grade over the years are the ones that cost more when purchased. >>
This is only generally true.
Opinion varies even among experts as to what constitures any given
grade and much more about what's high end and what's low end. If
a collector is seeking quality it can be found at either end of the spec-
trum but is scarcer at the low end. In the middle and high end there
is usually a premium and it's sometimes very substantial.
If you're considering very high value coins with nominal buy/ sell spreads
this premium is often recoverable and often the coin can upgrade in
later years returning far more than just the premium. But most collectors
are paying a 30% markup when they buy and any premium to that can
simply assure they can't get even on the coin until it about doubles in
price.
You'll still pay the 30% markup at the low end probably but you might
get a discount which lowers this a little. Of course there's a lot of junk
available on the low end and collectors should avoid such coins. Poor
quality won't improve with time and dealing and collecting such coins is
probably going to be a losing proposition but all coins have some qual-
ities. Unless one has a mentor, is collecting at the very high end, or is
intimately familiar with market values most are well advised to avoid
paying premiums for coins. No one should buy coins just because they
are cheap unless they know the risks.
I totally agree that you can walk away from any sale, but there is a big number of collectors that either have a lot of money and no cents that will pay the asking price of any coin without any attempt to get a lower price on the coin. As long as dealers can get a higher price in a reasonable time frame they will not discount the coin to you just to make a sell.
I get around and stop in coin stores all over the country from small stores in small towns to large stores in large towns. I go to shows large and small all over the place. The only venue i do not get to on a regular basis is national shows every year. I make a few but not many. I want to try to make more this year.
1 thing that i see over and over is the fat cat show dealer. This is the vest pocket dealer that has aquired coins over the last 40 years and has had a great business or job that allowed him to live well and retire nicely. They do the local shows just to get out and be active and if they sell a few coins then that is a bonus. They do not have to fire sale anything to make ends meet. It is hard to deal with those types i have found.
Over the last few years i have bought more coins from Heritage, DLRC, Northeast Nusmatics than all the coin shows combined that i have gone to because of price. You would figure that would be the opposite, at least i would. I am in a small circle of dealers and collectors that will treat you right IF THEY COME INTO THE COINS, that is the problem, those can not get the great stuff. I have also bought some nice coins at fair prices from forum members here thru PMs.
Compared to the last 5 years my buying has fallen off big time. I used to buy a coin just to take it home and look at it for a while and say i owned it. You could sell most of those coins 6 months later for a nice little gain. I really enjoyed the thrill of the deal and the hunt. I have finally gotten picky and selective on my purchases. While i would love to say this is a hobby and to heck with the return on investment my personality will not allow me to do that, i know that some here can but when i had over 100k in coins that was a big chunk of cash to me and by sheer luck i was able to come out ahead when i sold the bulk of that off. I was obsessed for a few years.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>( Mainly proofs from before 1900) >>
There's your problem right there. Just because a coin is "PQ" doesn't mean there's a big market for it. Classic proofs have their followers, sure, but not as many as nearly all the other classic series.
<< <i>PQ coins do not have to cost a premium, Be selective and disaplined, don't be afraid to walk away if you think its overpriced. But by all means if you love the coin buy it, I have a few coins that were over priced 3 years ago. and I still have them and have no intention of selling them. They are keepers to pass down someday to my nephews. And some of tem are worth a lot more now then what I over paid for them 3 years ago.
I always look at an average so to speak, I may but a few at bargin prices and a few at are overpriced some right on the money, in the end they all seem to average out.
And I still take out my collection and just look at, as I have off and on since the early 60's when I was a kid collecting coins.
Enjoy the hobby. >>
I agree with you ... its all about enjoying the hobby. If I overpay its because I think the coin will be a great addition to my collection and I am not likely to sell the coin. It may be sold when I am dead but no one will know how much of a beating I took because of my original over payment and I won't care at that point.
I probably would never have taken up the hobby of coin collecting. Because I am really
smart for a bear, I have only been taken to the cleaners a few hundred times. My buy high
and sell low strategy has never failed me. Bankruptcy can not be far away now.
Camelot
That is the problem with today's market, to many dealers are receiving consignments, so they don't need to buy coins for inventory. In effect, to many net sellers.
As long as that is happening you have a major set of the coin buying market ( dealers) really out of the market ( buying for inventory) . That will keep prices down until more demand occurs among collectors....which is questionable in this environment.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>Paying premiums in the market is far easier than getting them back. >>
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire