Tomaska's upcoming Franklin book, Variety Section

frnklnlvr

Rick Tomaska has asked me to help him with the variety section in his upcoming Franklin book. He only wants to include the major varieties since there are hundreds of minor varieties in the series. I'm currently going through all my Franklin varieties and picking out the ones I'll be doing write-ups on for him. I don't have all the major varieties like the big '61 DDR and a few of the Cherrypicker Varities. If anybody has any varieties that they think should be included you can post about it here and contact Rick about sending your coin to him for photography. His email is rt@ricoins.com and his CU handle is ultimatecameo.

As I finish the write up on a variety I'm going to post it in this thread and ask for feedback and suggestions. I want to make sure it's easy to understand, that I haven't left anything out or wrote something that is incorrect.

The first write-up I did was on the '56 pf and '58 & '59 Type 1 & 2. Let me know what you think.





Type 1 & 2 Franklin Halves

1956 proof

In 1956 the proofs underwent some slight design changes, mainly with the eagle. The type 1 design, which was also used on proofs from 1950-55, is the scarcer of the two varieties making up about 5% of the total mintage. It is of a low relief and the neck feathers lack any detail. The eagle has four wing tips to the left of the perch. The type 2 is a bold design with a higher relief and the neck feathers are well defined. There are three wing tips left of the perch. This design was used on proofs from 1956 until the series ended in 1963.


1958 & 1959 Type 1 & 2 (P-mint only)

The 1958 and 1959 business strikes are also known with two different reverse types. The type 1s are the standard reverse used on all business strikes. The type 2s are actually retired proof dies. The same diagnostics can be used to differentiate these as on the ’56 proofs.

For 1958, the type 2 is the scarcer variety and it is estimated that 20% of the total mintage is made up of these. Gems are tough to find because the mint sets for this year all contained type 1s. Examples with FBLs are very rare, possibly as much so as the ’53-S but until grading services recognize these varieties it’s no way to know for sure.

1959 halves are common in both types, either can be found in rolls or mint sets. There is also a type 2/type 1 class III “design hub doubling” DDR, meaning that a die was hubbed with a type 1 design and then hubbed with a type 2. What resulted was an eagle that has characteristics of both types. Like the type 2, the eagle has three wing tips left of the perch but the look of the wings more resemble the type 1 design.

Cameonut

I only collect the proof Franklin varieties so I can't help much on the business strikes.

I like what you have so far and can't wait for the book to come out.

Don't forget the 1960 DDO, a nice variety that isn't too hard to find.

When you get to the 1961 DDR, please make sure you explain that there are several DDR's and the only one that commands a high premium is the big die (#3). Some people are paying way too much for a DDR when they mistake the minor ones for the big one.

You might also mention CONECA as an organization that specializes in varieties. Their website is very helpful to variety collectors but has no pictures.

Sounds like a fun project.

frnklnlvr

That's a good point about the '61 DDR. I see ridiculous prices being paid for minor varieties. In fact, one on Ebay in a PCGS holder sold for $521 Link. IMO the minor varieties are worth at the very most $100.

Coiny

Good luck in helping Rick with his new book. Cannot wait to read it!
While much of my focus has been on the investment end of the registry collections I hold on both the business strike and proofs,
I am now beginning to learn more about the detail you are providing. it is fascinating!

ricko

That will be a book I will buy.... I have a full set... minus the varieties.... maybe I should go for them now. Cheers, RickO

frnklnlvr

If the rarity of the '58 T2 FBL is published and the TPG's start recognizing it, this could definitely be a coin that would increase in value. Of course there aren't many out there and it's actually a tough coin to find without FBL.

I'm really excited about helping Tomaska with this section. By no means do I consider myself a writer so that's why I'm trying to get input and feedback.

Bcsican

Make sure you get some sort of "payment" for your effort other than just an honorable mention as a contributer...payment in a few of his high grade coins for example...good luck with the effort on your valauable information in the area of expertise....

frnklnlvr

<< <i>Make sure you get some sort of "payment" for your effort other than just an honorable mention as a contributer...payment in a few of his high grade coins for example...good luck with the effort on your valauable information in the area of expertise.... >>



That's kinda what I was thinking.

PawPaul

<< <i>Make sure you get some sort of "payment" for your effort other than just an honorable mention as a contributer...payment in a few of his high grade coins for example...good luck with the effort on your valauable information in the area of expertise.... >>




..............

PawPaul

......i was laughing at the part that suggested you try to get some form of payment !

Bcsican

<< <i>......I was laughing at the part that suggested you try to get some form of payment ! >>



Yea I thought that was pretty friggin funny myself...you know when hes selling its the best "you" will ever find but when buying nothing but complaints its too expensive and "not all there"...making money on selling the books free information a few coins would be a cheap payout...but like you we know that in not going to happen...

PawPaul

Maybe Mr. Tomaska will gather all the profits from his new book and then divide and hand out a equal share of all the cash to each die hard

Franklin PCGS message board member.

We could then use the money to buy some of his really neat , very expensive , dynamite Franklin's !!

It's a win -win situation

frnklnlvr

The other varieties I plan on doing are:

Bugs Bunny

Dbld. Dies
Bus. Strikes
1948 P&D DDR FS-801
1951-S DDR FS-801
1956 DDO-002
1959 DDR FS-801

Proofs
1956 DDO FS-101
1956 DDR FS-801
1960 DDO FS-012
1961 DDR FS-801 die 3

RPMs
1949-S FS-501
1950-D D/S WOMM-001? or D/D RPM-001?
1953-S FS-501
1957-D FS-501
1961-D RPM-001

Can anyone think of any I left out that should be included?

PawPaul

no offense lvr ;

but i do not have a single variety in my whole Franklin collection and will not be able to "help" you with your contributions to the book

greghansen

Thank you for your help in this project. It is a worthwhile endeavor. I hope Mr. Tomaska's new book will be oriented a little more objectively and not so much of a marketing book. My opinion of his books on proof Franky's were that they had some wonderful information as to how the DCAM's and CAM's came to exist and why some years were more scarce than others...but the bulk of the book seemed to be oriented towards an unrealistic market value and/or near hype of the coins.

While I certainly don't object to authors including opinions designed to widen the market appeal of their series...the lack of any serious objectivity causes a loss of credibility in my opinion when it goes to far. I think the previous books went to far. Hope the editors (if there are any) will dial it back a notch on the new work. Good luck on this project.

bushmaster8

Did you know the 1950-D/S is a DDO? It has a fairly nice spread in the 5 & 9 of the date. It's a very cool, albeit controversial, variety.

Maybe including it in the book will stir up enuff new interest in this little known variety, that folks will be on the search for them. If enuff are found, perhaps an early die state will turn up and settle the debate once and for all!

frnklnlvr

<< <i>Did you know the 1950-D/S is a DDO? It has a fairly nice spread in the 5 & 9 of the date. It's a very cool, albeit controversial, variety.

Maybe including it in the book will stir up enuff new interest in this little known variety, that folks will be on the search for them. If enuff are found, perhaps an early die state will turn up and settle the debate once and for all! >>



Yes it certainly is.

The one I have is a LDS and you can't determine anything from it. After seeing yours, which was an earlier die state than mine, I think I was even more confused about this variety. Something's goin on with the MM but I have no idea what it is.


Does anyone know anything about 1962-D RPM Breen 5262 - D/horizontal D? I'd like to see one of these.

ProofArtworkonCircs

<<The type 2s are actually retired proof dies.>>

I wonder if, instead, they were intended for proof work and were found wanting and diverted to circulation production. Or we could say they were retired before they went into proof production and before polishing of the die. This has happened in other series also including the quarter reverses of 1958 and 1959. The quarter and half variants show up in the Philly slot in most of the 1959 mint sets.

The 1959 Class III has some interesting doubling in the EPU. The dot to the left of E shows the maximum displacement of a doubling effect.

I think this class III has philosophical implications. It was heavily buffed before first use to remove signs of doubling and later rebuffed again. The creation of this die might have been an accident, but the buffing shows its use was deliberate. This has happened on other series also.

frnklnlvr

Those are some good points ProofArtwork. I was going by what the Breen Book said about the proof dies but they are incorrect about some of their info.

Also with the DDR I do need to include the other areas of doubling you mentioned.

Here's the revised part about the 1959:



1959 halves are common in both types, either can be found in rolls or mint sets. There is also a type 2/type 1 class III “design hub doubling” DDR, meaning that a die was hubbed with a type 1 design and then hubbed with a type 2. What resulted was an eagle that has characteristics of both types. Like the type 2, the eagle has three wing tips left of the perch but the look of the wings more resemble the type 1 design. Doubling can also be seen on E PLURIBUS UNUM and the dot left of the E shows maximum displacement of the doubling effect. This die was heavily buffed before its use to remove signs of doubling and later buffed again. The creation of this die might have been an accident, but the buffing shows its use was intentional. This variety can be found with two different obverse dies.

ProofArtworkonCircs

<<1959 halves are common in both types, either can be found in rolls or mint sets. There is also a type 2/type 1 class III “design hub doubling” DDR, meaning that a die was hubbed with a type 1 design and then hubbed with a type 2. What resulted was an eagle that has characteristics of both types. Like the type 2, the eagle has three wing tips left of the perch but the look of the wings more resemble the type 1 design. Doubling can also be seen on E PLURIBUS UNUM and the dot left of the E shows maximum displacement of the doubling effect. This die was heavily buffed before its use to remove signs of doubling and later buffed again. The creation of this die might have been an accident, but the buffing shows its use was intentional. This variety can be found with two different obverse dies.>>

I love it! I especially like seeing an acknowledgement that doubled dies are sometimes more than pure accidents. There was a 1952 quarter case where a buffed doubled die was used in proof production, which I find really surprising.

Rick has a copy of Bill Edwards' work on the 1958-1959 halves. It includes drawings of the scratches made by the buffings. The second buffing removed some of the first buffing's scratches, left some, and added some of its own. He estimated that 10 % of the mintage was done before the second buffing.

He also had quite a few examples of die chips and breaks in EPU and die cracks by the eagle, especially in the 1958 type 2. He estimated 30-40 % showed signs of die deterioration.

19Lyds

<< <i>If the rarity of the '58 T2 FBL is published and the TPG's start recognizing it, this could definitely be a coin that would increase in value. Of course there aren't many out there and it's actually a tough coin to find without FBL.

I'm really excited about helping Tomaska with this section. By no means do I consider myself a writer so that's why I'm trying to get input and feedback. >>



Made me Look!

My 58P is of the Type 2 Variety but the coin is not a grader. Perhaps an AU58.

My 56 Proof is the Type 1
My 59P is of the Type 1 Variety as well.

frnklnlvr

<< <i>Rick has a copy of Bill Edwards' work on the 1958-1959 halves. It includes drawings of the scratches made by the buffings. The second buffing removed some of the first buffing's scratches, left some, and added some of its own. He estimated that 10 % of the mintage was done before the second buffing.

He also had quite a few examples of die chips and breaks in EPU and die cracks by the eagle, especially in the 1958 type 2. He estimated 30-40 % showed signs of die deterioration. >>





Where can you find this info of Bill Edwards'? I like to see that.



I think that most of the '58 T2s might have been retired proof dies because it's so hard to find FBLs and also the presence of chips and breaks in EPU. This is just speculation though.

Now there are some '59s that are PL so some of those dies might have been diverted for use on business strikes without ever being used to strike proofs.

ProofArtworkonCircs

<<I think that most of the '58 T2s might have been retired proof dies because it's so hard to find FBLs and also the presence of chips and breaks in EPU. This is just speculation though.

Now there are some '59s that are PL so some of those dies might have been diverted for use on business strikes without ever being used to strike proofs.>>

Interesting! One theory for one year and another for the next. I like that open minded thinking. You may be on to something. If they were retired proof dies, I would expect some proof like circulation strikes to exist unless the dies were roughed up first. In that case, I would expect some evidence of that to exist. Personally, I have not handled that many examples of these dates.

Bill had 8 different stages of die chipping and cracking for 1958 and 3 for 1959.
He assumed 4 dies were needed to explain 1958 but I think his II-d and II-a are the same or thus 3 dies colud explain what we see.
1959 also looks like 3 different dies.

ProofArtworkonCircs

<<Now there are some '59s that are PL so some of those dies might have been diverted for use on business strikes without ever being used to strike proofs.>>

I just reread this again. I think the PL might have been retired polished proof dies and the non PL were from proof dies that were diverted before polishing.

It is so hard to know what was going on in those days. The mint regularily denied that there were any design differences between proof and circulation strikes. On the other hand, they emphatically denied that retired proof dies were used for circulation strikes.


edited to add "retired" to the last line. It does change the sense of the sentence.

frnklnlvr

Here's my '59 PL. It does have evidence of die polish like you said.

PawPaul

what about R.Tomaska sending us all money ??

PCcoins

Where are Mr. T's amazing toned Franklins at? I would like to see some.

PawPaul

....I did not know Mr. T collected Franklins ?

...............tree bugs , gotta' cut um all down ...........

PCcoins

You know what I mean, Mr. Tomaska's Franklins that you speak of Paul. Is there a website where I can view these precious jewels?

frnklnlvr

<< <i>You know what I mean, Mr. Tomaska's Franklins that you speak of Paul. Is there a website where I can view these precious jewels? >>



His website is randicoins.com

PawPaul

I see a few variety's listed for Franklins at the PCGS Price Guide .......I will have to break out my 10X glass and see if I have any -some of the prices are strong !

Bear

I like what I read. A small suggestion, the term left side is sometimes confusing.
If you would state while looking at the coin, the left side then becomes clearer.
To avoid having to say this for every coin, merely lace a sentence in the front of the
book to clarify what left side means.

PawPaul

book is due out any momment

Cameonut

<< <i>book is due out any momment >>



That would explain their total lack of response to my willingness to share some of my varieties back a year or so ago. Very poor communication and I am glad I never sent them a coin for inclusion in the book.

That being said, I still may buy one of the books for my reference shelf. I guess I am a glutton for punishment.

frnklnlvr

<< <i>

<< <i>book is due out any momment >>



That would explain their total lack of response to my willingness to share some of my varieties back a year or so ago. Very poor communication and I am glad I never sent them a coin for inclusion in the book.

That being said, I still may buy one of the books for my reference shelf. I guess I am a glutton for punishment. >>




I was never reimbursed for shipping costs for the coins I sent to them for the book.

RebelRon

<< <i>book is due out any momment >>

I,m ready!