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PSA 9.5
hofautos
Posts: 1,934
Now that BGS is grading more and more BGS 10s all the time, do you think it would make sense for PSA to come out with a 9.5? I would think this would make the existing PSA 10s stronger and make current BGS 9.5s weaker, and generally be good for business for PSA....thoughts?
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<< <i>They can't. Too many cards have been graded outside of that standard and the 10 population would be too diluted to hold value. >>
Who can't? PSA can't?
Can you expand on your thoughts?
If they did it with all the other grades, but 9.5, I am not sure I am following, and I am an Engineer (grin)...
Generally, it would make a LOT of sense for PSA to do this IMHO.
<< <i>the general opinion currently is that a bgs 9.5 is better than a PSA 10, and why it generally sells for more. If there were both a PSA 9.5 and PSA 10, I would think that a BGS 9.5 would compare more towards PSA 9.5...
Generally, it would make a LOT of sense for PSA to do this IMHO. >>
I see quite a few BGS 9.5's that sell for less than a PSA 10
<< <i>Well, if a BGS 9.5 is better/stronger than a PSA 10, why did my BGS 9.5 crossovers pull 8's and 9's? >>
We all know that grades are very subjective and can be different from one grader to the next or by the same grader on a different day...
I am not going to say one grade is bettter than the other.
I am just saying that it is the general concensus that a BGS 9.5 compares to a PSA 10, and generally (not always) sells for more.
If PSA were smart, they would implement a PSA 9.5 subgrade.
<< <i>
<< <i>the general opinion currently is that a bgs 9.5 is better than a PSA 10, and why it generally sells for more. If there were both a PSA 9.5 and PSA 10, I would think that a BGS 9.5 would compare more towards PSA 9.5...
Generally, it would make a LOT of sense for PSA to do this IMHO. >>
I see quite a few BGS 9.5's that sell for less than a PSA 10 >>
More often than not (NOT ALWAYS), BGS 9.5s sell for more than PSA 10s...most people compare BGS 9.5 to PSA 10 (both gems) where BGS 10 has a grade higher (pristine). It would make good marketing sense for PSA to level the playing ground.
<< <i> I am not sure I am following, and I am an Engineer (grin)... >>
That counts against you actually. You just don't know it because you're an engineer.
Keep shifting the standards around, and folks will stop trusting the brand.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>
Keep shifting the standards around, and folks will stop trusting the brand. >>
I agree
Well said
<< <i>PSA 10s and BGS 10s are different grades, graded according to different standards. If you re-defined the PSA 10 standard, then ALL PSA 10s graded prior would have been graded to a softer standard.
Keep shifting the standards around, and folks will stop trusting the brand.
>>
Great answer. That should be the end of the conversation.
By adding a 9.5 standard, all PSA 10s become automatically weakened because they may actually only be worthy of the 9.5 standard if evaluated again. Not all PSA 10's are equal...they're all better than 9s, but some are better than others.
edited to add:
no matter what, messing with the standards is disasterous.
A 1986 Jerry Rice PSA 10 sold fo $2,400 and a BGS 9.5 sold for $2,750. Basically for the new cards BGS has developed a better niche with their subgrades. PSA will have to deal with this situation very soon to stay competitive.
<< <i>
<< <i>PSA 10s and BGS 10s are different grades, graded according to different standards. If you re-defined the PSA 10 standard, then ALL PSA 10s graded prior would have been graded to a softer standard.
Keep shifting the standards around, and folks will stop trusting the brand.
>>
Great answer. That should be the end of the conversation. >>
I am not suggesting to re-define the PSA 10 standard. a 10 is a 10...and should be reserved for the best quality cards.
Currently, A card that was better than a 9 but not as good as a 10, would recieve a 9 grade.
No one would resubmit a 10 for a higher grade.
People may submit a 9 for hopes of a 9.5 in the same way they did for all of the other half grades.
It wasn't a catastrophe, was it?
So is a BGS 10 better than a PSA 10, if the highest grade one can get by psa is a PSA 10?
I am not going to argue the point, but IMHO, PSA would be smart if they would implement a 9.5.
Just thought I would throw it out there. I am sure they contemplated it before and decided against it....I just think they should put it back on the table again.
<< <i>
A 1986 Jerry Rice PSA 10 sold fo $2,400 and a BGS 9.5 sold for $2,750. Basically for the new cards BGS has developed a better niche with their subgrades. PSA will have to deal with this situation very soon to stay competitive.
And think what a BGS 10 would sell for...
BGS 9.5s typically sell for more than PSA 10s.
A 10Pristine may work, but I think it would make more sense to call it a PSA10+ PSA10 and PSA10-
The psa 10 standard doesnt need to change.
But I still think most think that a PSA 10 is boss and cannot be beat, and I think it should remain that way. If you already have a 10, you have the best money can buy...they should just introduce a PSA 9.5, but if they wanted a new name pristine a PSA10pristine may be an alternative.
Same thing would apply for PSA 10+ or whatever you want to call it.
GEM-MT 10: Gem Mint.
A PSA Gem Mint 10 card is a virtually perfect card. Attributes include four perfectly sharp corners, sharp focus and full original gloss. A PSA Gem Mint 10 card must be free of staining of any kind, but an allowance may be made for a slight printing imperfection, if it doesn't impair the overall appeal of the card. The image must be centered on the card within a tolerance not to exceed approximately 55/45 to 60/40 percent on the front, and 75/25 percent on the reverse.
MINT 9: Mint.
A PSA Mint 9 is a superb condition card that exhibits only one of the following minor flaws: a very slight wax stain on reverse, a minor printing imperfection or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 60/40 to 65/35 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.
---------------
Mint 9
Gem 9.5
Gem Mint 10
----------------
A PSA Gem 9.5 card is a just shy of virtually perfect card (same as PSA 10) but Centering must be better than 65/35 front and Centering 80/20 back
Mktg Mgr: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
Joe O: Oh, I see. But most grades go up to ten?
Mktg Mgr: Exactly.
Joe O: Does that mean it's better?
Mktg Mgr: Well, it's one better, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most collectors, you know, will be submitting at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your registry set. Where can you go from there? Where?
Joe O: I don't know.
Mktg Mgr: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Joe O: Put it up to eleven.
Mktg Mgr: Eleven. Exactly. One better.
Joe O: Why don't you just make ten the best and make ten be the top number and make that a little better?
Mktg Mgr: [pause] These go to eleven.
This is known as “bad luck.”
<< <i>I cant seem to find anything on becketts website about their standads (maybe they dont have any), but for PSA
GEM-MT 10: Gem Mint.
A PSA Gem Mint 10 card is a virtually perfect card. Attributes include four perfectly sharp corners, sharp focus and full original gloss. A PSA Gem Mint 10 card must be free of staining of any kind, but an allowance may be made for a slight printing imperfection, if it doesn't impair the overall appeal of the card. The image must be centered on the card within a tolerance not to exceed approximately 55/45 to 60/40 percent on the front, and 75/25 percent on the reverse.
MINT 9: Mint.
A PSA Mint 9 is a superb condition card that exhibits only one of the following minor flaws: a very slight wax stain on reverse, a minor printing imperfection or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 60/40 to 65/35 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.
---------------
Mint 9
Gem 9.5
Gem Mint 10
----------------
A PSA Gem 9.5 card is a just shy of virtually perfect card (same as PSA 10) but Centering must be better than 65/35 front and Centering 80/20 back >>
BGS has their standards listed just hard to find on their crappy website...Here's the criteria..
Pristine 10
Centering: 50/50 all around on front. 60/40 or better on back.
Corners: Perfect to the naked eye and Mint under magnification.
Edges: Perfect to the naked eye and virtually free of flaws under magnification.
Surface: No print spots. Flawless color, devoid of registration or focus imperfections. Perfect gloss, devoid of scratches and metallic print lines.
Gem Mint 9.5
Centering: 50/50 one way, 55/45 the other on front. 60/40 or better on back
Corners: Mint to the naked eye, but slight imperfections allowed under magnification.
Edges: Virtually Mint to the naked eye. A speck of wear is allowed under intense scrutiny.
Surface: A few extremely minor print spots, detectable only under intense scrutiny. Deep color, devoid of registration or focus imperfections. Perfect gloss, devoid of scratches and metallic print lines
Mint 9
Centering: 55/45 both ways on front. 70/30 or better on back.
Corners: Mint upon close inspection. A speck of wear is allowed under intense scrutiny.
Edges: Virtually Mint to the naked eye. Unobtrusive specks of chipping on the borders are allowed.
Surface: A handful of printing specks or one minor spot. Very minor focus or color imperfections. Clean gloss with one or two tiny scratches barely noticeable to the naked eye. One faint, unobtrusive metallic print line is allowed.
<< <i>You are getting into one of the more idiotic areas of card grading. If a card is in MINT condition, it is by definition flawless. How can a card be more MINT? Of course the answer for the grading industry is GEM MINT (9.5 by BGS standards). How the heck can a card be more GEM MINT? To me a BGS 10 Pristine is stupid simply because they are stating the card is better than GEM MINT. Might as well put GEM MINTER on the label because that is how stupid it is.
Same thing would apply for PSA 10+ or whatever you want to call it. >>
Can you find card GEM MINTERER?
BGS 10: Pristine
Centering: 50/50 all around on front. 60/40 or better on back.
Corners: Perfect to the naked eye and Mint under magnification.
Edges: Perfect to the naked eye and virtually free of flaws under magnification.
Surface: No print spots. Flawless color, devoid of registration or focus imperfections. Perfect gloss, devoid of scratches and metallic print lines.
WTB: 2001 Leaf Rookies & Stars Longevity: Ryan Jensen #/25
<< <i>I have written and called PSA on this matter at least twice. The real answer to me is to come up with a 10+ or 10 Pristine. There have been way too many PSA 10's especially on the new cards. Take for example a 1987 Donruss Greg Maddux. PSA has graded over 1000 10's, while BGS has only 9 or 10. Thus, a PSA 10 compares to a BGS 9.5 unless the the BGS 9.5 is only .5 away from a 10, then the BGS 9.5 is better than the PSA 10 in many cases. This way you could resend in your cards to attempt to get a 10 Pristine (which would be based probably on near perfect centering).
A 1986 Jerry Rice PSA 10 sold fo $2,400 and a BGS 9.5 sold for $2,750. Basically for the new cards BGS has developed a better niche with their subgrades. PSA will have to deal with this situation very soon to stay competitive.
I like BGS and the subs they use but since the site change BGS has really lost steam.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
<< <i>But doesn't BGS tout a 10 as being absolutely flawless? For PSA to equate, they'd have to move up. >>
I dont think so, again, i couldn't find anything on their board about standards, and there is nothing that says psa standards have to be same as PSA, besides there is no such thing as flawless.
<< <i>
<< <i>I cant seem to find anything on becketts website about their standads (maybe they dont have any), but for PSA
GEM-MT 10: Gem Mint.
A PSA Gem Mint 10 card is a virtually perfect card. Attributes include four perfectly sharp corners, sharp focus and full original gloss. A PSA Gem Mint 10 card must be free of staining of any kind, but an allowance may be made for a slight printing imperfection, if it doesn't impair the overall appeal of the card. The image must be centered on the card within a tolerance not to exceed approximately 55/45 to 60/40 percent on the front, and 75/25 percent on the reverse.
MINT 9: Mint.
A PSA Mint 9 is a superb condition card that exhibits only one of the following minor flaws: a very slight wax stain on reverse, a minor printing imperfection or slightly off-white borders. Centering must be approximately 60/40 to 65/35 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the reverse.
---------------
Mint 9
Gem 9.5
Gem Mint 10
----------------
A PSA Gem 9.5 card is a just shy of virtually perfect card (same as PSA 10) but Centering must be better than 65/35 front and Centering 80/20 back >>
BGS has their standards listed just hard to find on their crappy website...Here's the criteria..
Pristine 10
Centering: 50/50 all around on front. 60/40 or better on back.
Corners: Perfect to the naked eye and Mint under magnification.
Edges: Perfect to the naked eye and virtually free of flaws under magnification.
Surface: No print spots. Flawless color, devoid of registration or focus imperfections. Perfect gloss, devoid of scratches and metallic print lines.
Gem Mint 9.5
Centering: 50/50 one way, 55/45 the other on front. 60/40 or better on back
Corners: Mint to the naked eye, but slight imperfections allowed under magnification.
Edges: Virtually Mint to the naked eye. A speck of wear is allowed under intense scrutiny.
Surface: A few extremely minor print spots, detectable only under intense scrutiny. Deep color, devoid of registration or focus imperfections. Perfect gloss, devoid of scratches and metallic print lines
Mint 9
Centering: 55/45 both ways on front. 70/30 or better on back.
Corners: Mint upon close inspection. A speck of wear is allowed under intense scrutiny.
Edges: Virtually Mint to the naked eye. Unobtrusive specks of chipping on the borders are allowed.
Surface: A handful of printing specks or one minor spot. Very minor focus or color imperfections. Clean gloss with one or two tiny scratches barely noticeable to the naked eye. One faint, unobtrusive metallic print line is allowed. >>
Again, there is nothing that suggests PSA standards have to match BGS, and everyone knows the truth anyway, that grades for the most part are very "subjective". Everyone has seen a BGS 9.5 with less than 50/50 both ways....they don't meet their own standards....
The PSA 10 should remain the highest grade. They should just have a 9.5 that is better than a 9 and less than a 10 by their own standards...they can word it any way they want...Just the fact that if they both had comparable grading values, within time a bgs 10 will be looked at more closely to a PSA 10, and a bgs 9.5 closer to a PSA 9.5.
It will actually ADD strength to the PSA 10...that I am sure of.
<< <i>
<< <i>I have written and called PSA on this matter at least twice. The real answer to me is to come up with a 10+ or 10 Pristine. There have been way too many PSA 10's especially on the new cards. Take for example a 1987 Donruss Greg Maddux. PSA has graded over 1000 10's, while BGS has only 9 or 10. Thus, a PSA 10 compares to a BGS 9.5 unless the the BGS 9.5 is only .5 away from a 10, then the BGS 9.5 is better than the PSA 10 in many cases. This way you could resend in your cards to attempt to get a 10 Pristine (which would be based probably on near perfect centering).
A 1986 Jerry Rice PSA 10 sold fo $2,400 and a BGS 9.5 sold for $2,750. Basically for the new cards BGS has developed a better niche with their subgrades. PSA will have to deal with this situation very soon to stay competitive.
I like BGS and the subs they use but since the site change BGS has really lost steam. >>
if you dont already know, freedomcardboard.com is where most of becketts former users went.
<< <i>It's subjective. A toss-up. A wild guess, if you must, between two extremely close numbers. More generous and liberal grading is generally contingent upon number of items in customers submission. >>
Agreed, besides the people actually doing the grading, no one really pays any attention to the "so called standards" anyway...They just know what the card is worth by the grade... a perfect example is by the guy above that said how can a card be any better than MINT. by standards, it's obvious...just to most people no one memorizes standards or even gives a toot about the standards...
Just drunk again. But really don't fix it if it aint broke. But on the other hand why not have a 9.5. but on the other hand PSA will do what PSA wants to do.
So I will claim insanity and everyone should just disregard whatever I just typed.
In short, it just doesn't make sense to include half grades for all the other numbers on the scale but not the 9-10 so I think PSA needs to bite the bullet and make a correction to this. Yes, this will cause an uproar/panic amongst current PSA 10 card owners but in the long term PSA will reposition itself and regain the trust of those that receive a "10" that they really do have the top graded card in existence that can equal or exceed the BGS 10 graded cards.
That is what some of you fail to understand.
When they went to the .5 system they made it clear why they were not using it above 9.0
Steve
<< <i>I think consistency is the key, if PSA is astute enough to identify the difference between an 8.5 and a 9, shouldn't they be able to do the same with a card that falls in the 9.5 or 10 range? Current PSA 10 owners must wonder if their card in actuality is a 9.5, and that explains why a BGS 10 outsells the PSA 10.
In short, it just doesn't make sense to include half grades for all the other numbers on the scale but not the 9-10 so I think PSA needs to bite the bullet and make a correction to this. Yes, this will cause an uproar/panic amongst current PSA 10 card owners but in the long term PSA will reposition itself and regain the trust of those that receive a "10" that they really do have the top graded card in existence that can equal or exceed the BGS 10 graded cards. >>
Why are you so worried about this topic and something as esoteric as a grade of 9.5? Buy the card and not the holder and you will always make out.
<< <i>PSA could care less about BGS.
That is what some of you fail to understand.
When they went to the .5 system they made it clear why they were not using it above 9.0
Steve >>
They probably made it clear at one time they would never use the .5 grades at all too...never say never...if it makes marketing sense...and it does at that.
<< <i>I think consistency is the key, if PSA is astute enough to identify the difference between an 8.5 and a 9, shouldn't they be able to do the same with a card that falls in the 9.5 or 10 range? Current PSA 10 owners must wonder if their card in actuality is a 9.5, and that explains why a BGS 10 outsells the PSA 10.
In short, it just doesn't make sense to include half grades for all the other numbers on the scale but not the 9-10 so I think PSA needs to bite the bullet and make a correction to this. Yes, this will cause an uproar/panic amongst current PSA 10 card owners but in the long term PSA will reposition itself and regain the trust of those that receive a "10" that they really do have the top graded card in existence that can equal or exceed the BGS 10 graded cards. >>
I agree with everything you say, but current psa 10 card owners would be in an uproar? Just the opposite. If they have 10's they have the best. No one will resubmit a 10 in hopes of a 9.5. If there is a 9.5, that will in effect make their 10s even stronger. Especially when BGS 9.5 outsell PSA 10s for the most part....If PSA created a 9.5, BGS 9.5 will eventually compare to PSA 9.5's and BGS 10's to PSA 10s....
it'll happen...
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<< <i>
<< <i>I think consistency is the key, if PSA is astute enough to identify the difference between an 8.5 and a 9, shouldn't they be able to do the same with a card that falls in the 9.5 or 10 range? Current PSA 10 owners must wonder if their card in actuality is a 9.5, and that explains why a BGS 10 outsells the PSA 10.
In short, it just doesn't make sense to include half grades for all the other numbers on the scale but not the 9-10 so I think PSA needs to bite the bullet and make a correction to this. Yes, this will cause an uproar/panic amongst current PSA 10 card owners but in the long term PSA will reposition itself and regain the trust of those that receive a "10" that they really do have the top graded card in existence that can equal or exceed the BGS 10 graded cards. >>
I agree with everything you say, but current psa 10 card owners would be in an uproar? Just the opposite. If they have 10's they have the best. No one will resubmit a 10 in hopes of a 9.5. If there is a 9.5, that will in effect make their 10s even stronger. Especially when BGS 9.5 outsell PSA 10s for the most part....If PSA created a 9.5, BGS 9.5 will eventually compare to PSA 9.5's and BGS 10's to PSA 10s.... >>
Your whole argument is flawed with the assumption that a BGS 9.5 outsells a PSA 10. You need to show some proof before making statements along these lines. I have seen the opposite occur especially in vintage material. You may have a point when it comes to certain modern issues, but I still cannot confirm or deny which professional grading services cards actually realize the best prices.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think consistency is the key, if PSA is astute enough to identify the difference between an 8.5 and a 9, shouldn't they be able to do the same with a card that falls in the 9.5 or 10 range? Current PSA 10 owners must wonder if their card in actuality is a 9.5, and that explains why a BGS 10 outsells the PSA 10.
In short, it just doesn't make sense to include half grades for all the other numbers on the scale but not the 9-10 so I think PSA needs to bite the bullet and make a correction to this. Yes, this will cause an uproar/panic amongst current PSA 10 card owners but in the long term PSA will reposition itself and regain the trust of those that receive a "10" that they really do have the top graded card in existence that can equal or exceed the BGS 10 graded cards. >>
I agree with everything you say, but current psa 10 card owners would be in an uproar? Just the opposite. If they have 10's they have the best. No one will resubmit a 10 in hopes of a 9.5. If there is a 9.5, that will in effect make their 10s even stronger. Especially when BGS 9.5 outsell PSA 10s for the most part....If PSA created a 9.5, BGS 9.5 will eventually compare to PSA 9.5's and BGS 10's to PSA 10s.... >>
There is little point to adding the 9.5, especially if a PSA 10's standards are always going to fall below the arbitrary standards of a BGS 10. That won't make submitters/buyers/collectors happy in the least and doesn't make PSA slabbed cards more desireable than their BGS counterparts. It would only serve to weaken the value of an existing PSA 10 and create further doubt in third party grading. Mixing standards under the same population domain isn't smart.
Beckett only thrives in the modern world the way they do because of the fact that their name was LONG established in the sports card world before TPGing became mainstream. Most people, especially new or returned collectors, go to BGS early on because it carries a name they know from their past.
Again, if they add a population, 10+ is the only way to go.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I have written and called PSA on this matter at least twice. The real answer to me is to come up with a 10+ or 10 Pristine. There have been way too many PSA 10's especially on the new cards. Take for example a 1987 Donruss Greg Maddux. PSA has graded over 1000 10's, while BGS has only 9 or 10. Thus, a PSA 10 compares to a BGS 9.5 unless the the BGS 9.5 is only .5 away from a 10, then the BGS 9.5 is better than the PSA 10 in many cases. This way you could resend in your cards to attempt to get a 10 Pristine (which would be based probably on near perfect centering).
A 1986 Jerry Rice PSA 10 sold fo $2,400 and a BGS 9.5 sold for $2,750. Basically for the new cards BGS has developed a better niche with their subgrades. PSA will have to deal with this situation very soon to stay competitive.
I like BGS and the subs they use but since the site change BGS has really lost steam. >>
if you dont already know, freedomcardboard.com is where most of becketts former users went. >>
Thanks, I joined in August but have not been there in a while.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
PSA will never adopt the 9.5 because it would negate the legitimacy of all cards previously graded a PSA 10. No need to damage the reputation of a compmany who's entire business model is judging an item based on a complete strangers opinion of condition. Grading is already subjective. Why add more subjectivity from the view of the actual card owner or a potential buyer?
You can pull the wool over your eyes for so only so long before the market figures out that the PSA 10 is no minter than the the BGS 9.5 and the market value confirms this fact.
Do you remember the emperor in the Wizard of Oz? While the appearance of the emperor was strong/overpowering--the reality is that the emperor was a pretty non-overwhelming dude.
To sum up, the PSA 10 can hold on for a few more years as an omnipotent "emperor" but in short time will reveal itself to be much less. Might as well admit its fallacies and adopt a half-point scale and concede that many 10's are actually 9.5s....
<< <i>The legitimacy of a "10" is indeed in question, which is why modern RCs from Beckett go higher at 9.5s than a PSA 10. The only reason the older PSA 9-10 cards retain value of BGS 9-10 card values is not because folks trust PSAs condition assessment over BGS--but is due to loyalty of set builders who want to complete complete PSA sets which Beckett was late to figure out.
You can pull the wool over your eyes for so only so long before the market figures out that the PSA 10 is no minter than the the BGS 9.5 and the market value confirms this fact.
Do you remember the emperor in the Wizard of Oz? While the appearance of the emperor was strong/overpowering--the reality is that the emperor was a pretty non-overwhelming dude.
To sum up, the PSA 10 can hold on for a few more years as an omnipotent "emperor" but in short time will reveal itself to be much less. Might as well admit its fallacies and adopt a half-point scale and concede that many 10's are actually 9.5s.... >>
I'm sorry, I'm normally nice to new guys...but that is idiotic...a PSA 10 is GEM MINT....a BGS 9.5 is GEM MINT (and possibly sheet cut). A BGS 10 is PRISTINE...Pristine isn't written into PSA grading standards. There are plenty of "pristine" cards in PSA 10 slabs, but PSA's business model doesn't recognize that distinction so it is a moot point.