What exactly is the difference between Bluesheet and Greysheet?
Halfhunter06
Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭
and why would a person use one over the other?
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....the real difference is that if you have a halfway decent looking coin that you're selling, NEVER and I mean NEVER let a dealer use the bluesheet as a price point....they're just trying to hose you if they do.
D'oh!
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<< <i>greysheet is sight-seen bid/ask; bluesheet is sight-unseen bid/ask....
....the real difference is that if you have a halfway decent looking coin that you're selling, NEVER and I mean NEVER let a dealer use the bluesheet as a price point....they're just trying to hose you if they do. >>
Fully agree with the above points.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
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<< <i>greysheet is sight-seen bid/ask; bluesheet is sight-unseen bid/ask....
....the real difference is that if you have a halfway decent looking coin that you're selling, NEVER and I mean NEVER let a dealer use the bluesheet as a price point....they're just trying to hose you if they do. >>
Remember that the Greysheet and Bluesheets are only price indicators. They are mostly accurate and realistic but there are other price indicators (like CCE) which can be more accurate and have more recent information.
Greysheet is supposed to represent indicators for sight-seen coin examples. Bluesheet represents sight-unseen numbers.
There are times when using a Bluesheet is a better price point than a Greysheet. Some grades are only listed in the Bluesheet and not Greysheet, and vice versa. There are also some denominations and grades that the Greysheet is overly optimistic on and Bluesheet numbers are more realistic. In fact there are more than a few series that I would be thrilled to sell people at numbers back of Bluesheet prices.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>The greysheet is for any properly graded coin (slabbed or unslabbed) while the bluesheet is for sight unseen slabbed coins which would be for the worse, ugliest, and overgraded coins out there. Nice coins don't need to be sold sight unseen.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
Maybe (and perhaps probably), but not necessarily. Read Wayne Herndon's posts in this thread.
I don't use the bluesheet because I don't buy sight unseen coins due to the poor quality. While I suspect there are many situations where the bluesheet using dealer is a JERK, it is not fair to paint with such a broad brush.
I have three points to make in this regard:
First, the sightunseen bluesheet prices are lower because they are priced for the ugliest dog coin at that grade. If someone is buying sight unseen, they will set their price for what they're willing to pay for that ugly dog coin. Sight unseen buyers also have no right to refuse once they see the coin.
Sight seen buyers on the other hand set their buy price for quality they are willing to accept and use their ability to sight-see the coins to accept or reject coins based on the standard they've set for their price quote.
Let's say the owner of that ugly dog coin decides to sell it sight-seen rather than sight-unseen to his local dealer. Just because the dealer has now seen this ugly dog in person doesn't mean it's price has magically improved to sight-seen levels. To the contrary, the seeing of the coin has confirmed that it is actually a blue-sheet quality coin (i.e., one that would be rejected sight-seen) worthy of a bluesheet price.
In short, seeing the coin doesn't transform the coin from bluesheet quality to greysheet quality. It just allows the buyer to determine which level of quality the coin is and pay accordingly. If it is a bluesheet quality coin, then a bluesheet price is still very appropriate even in a sight-seen situation.
Second, dealers don't have to buy any particular coin. The dealer can look at this ugly dog coin and say to themselves: "Man this is an ugly coin. I don't like it and think it will bring down the quality of my inventory to even take it in. Plus, I'll have my money tied up in this ugly dog and that's one nice piece I won't be able to buy instead. Yet, here is this customer asking me for a price. I guess considering all I would be okay taking it at x% back of bluesheet. If s/he passes and wants to sell it some place else, that will be fine too. I won't regret not having bought this piece."
Third, the bluesheet (and greysheet too for that matter) published the HIGHEST bid for each particular coin. Assume Dealer A has the highest sight-unseen bid for Coin X and Dealer A's price is picked up and published by the bluesheet. Now assume the customer offers this bluesheet quality coin to Dealer B (who has a sight-unseen bid on the coin but is lower). Dealer B is completely within is right to pay only his lower bluesheet bid for the coin. Dealer B shouldn't have to pay Dealer A's price just because it is higher and published by the bluesheet. I know some wholesale buyers who have such terrible business practices that I won't sell to them at all. A couple, for instance, take months to pay. Many other dealers won't deal with them either. As a result, in order to get the coins they need, these guys have to bid higher. When I'm wholesaling stuff, I'll sell it to the quick payer for a few bucks less rather than hassle with these guys.
Now let's assume that this bluesheet quality coin is offered to Dealer C who doesn't even have a bid out for this coin. Dealer C could see what Dealer A and Dealer B are bidding and make an offer back of that expecting to flip the coin sight unseen to one of them. It is completely fair for Dealer C to offer something less than bluesheet for this bluesheet quality coin knowing that bluesheet is all he's going to be able to get for it.
Now, put all of this in the context of how these prices are determined. Both the bluesheet and the greysheet derive their prices predominately from dealer bids on CCE and messages posted on CoinNet and FACTS (supplemented with data from auction records, dealer wholesale price lists, etc.). Not every coin has a bid all the time and even fewer dates have posted asks. Yet, the bluesheet and the greysheet fill in prices where there isn't an actual bid or ask. Sometimes they extrapolate from bids or asks on other grades or dates of similar rarity. Othertimes, they extrapolate a bluesheet price from a greysheet price or vice versa or an ask from a bid, etc. Message: Just because the bluesheet/greysheet publishes a price, that doesn't mean there is a buyer at that level.
There are thousands of dealer subscribers to the greysheet and bluesheet. Yet, only about 500 subscribe to CCE where most of the bids are placed. Probably less than 150 have a CCE subscription that allows them to place bids. Thus, the vast majority of the dealers reading the bluesheet and greysheet have no idea which dealer is placing the published bids or even whether they are real bids or a CDN extrapolation. So when these dealers are conisidering the purchase of a bluesheet quality coin, they don't know who the sight unseen buyer is at the published level or even if there really is a buyer at that level. Thus, they take on an added layer of risk (that there might not really be a buyer at that level, that they can't find the buyer if there is one, that the high bidder may not be a suitable trading partner, that the bid might adjust by the time they find a buyer, that the coin (ugly dog) may sit in inventory a long time before it sells, etc.). Naturally, this risk gets priced into their quote.
To help illustrate what the wholesale market looks like, let's do this. A couple of you post a coin and grade of your choice and I'll tell you what the current bids (if any) are for that coin (not greysheet/bluesheet prices but real dealer-to-dealer bids). Note that it doesn't have to be a coin or grade listed in the bluesheet or greysheet. Both publications select only a portion of the coins and grades to publish but there are bids and asks on others that are not printed. However, they do tend to pick and publish the ones that are most actively bid so it will be more interesting to look at at least a date or two that are commonly traded.
WH
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
I'll go one better than the above. If you see the dealer pull out the Blue Sheet pack your coins up and never return to the dealer for anything. If they try to rip you like this they do not want your business to begin with.
Ken
<< <i>....the real difference is that if you have a halfway decent looking coin that you're selling, NEVER and I mean NEVER let a dealer use the bluesheet as a price point....they're just trying to hose you if they do.
I'll go one better than the above. If you see the dealer pull out the Blue Sheet pack your coins up and never return to the dealer for anything. If they try to rip you like this they do not want your business to begin with.
Ken >>
Totally agree this. I've seen too many instances where a dealer will try to buy nice coins sight seen using the bluesheets.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>greysheet is sight-seen bid/ask; bluesheet is sight-unseen bid/ask....
....the real difference is that if you have a halfway decent looking coin that you're selling, NEVER and I mean NEVER let a dealer use the bluesheet as a price point....they're just trying to hose you if they do. >>
Well, this logic applies if you are a collector who is willing to pay retail prices (some reasonable percentage over Gray Sheet) for coins. If you are one of those Bozos who think that you are entitled to buy properly graded, certified, true collector coins at the Gray Sheet levels because you bought a subscription, you are a fool.
Do you work your job for 10 cents and hour? Do you work for free, and give your employer the fruits of your labor for nothing?
Why would you expect a coin dealer to work for such rates of pay?
And yes, there are over graded and problem coins in slabs that are worth no more than blue Sheet or less.
(do not take me serious)
A coin is worth what one is willing to pay for it, just as much as it's worth what one is willing to sell it for.
Before this and reading this thread, at shows I have had dealers look at my sell/trade coins and pull out their Bluesheet and never realized those were essentially the sight unseen prices... next time I see a dealer try this on me I'll know what's going on.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
A few moons ago when still doing my back and forth from L.A. - Aridzona, I decided to unload a few of my Morgans, not a cheap coins- all graded by PCGS in a 65 holders - at the time a solid $1500 even on the greysheet, dealer whips out blue- I said thanks but I'm not a dealer, the coin is more than solid for the grade and this is my ASK- he contemplated until he saw all the examples of not so common Morgans in the 65 range- All according to the 'book' are high end, no matter what- his offer on all 8 made me laugh and while there were customers in the store I was polite and did not call him a thief, instead I gave him my TIOLI (take it or leave it)price.
He took it on all- they went at what was a in between grey bid ask of 65 on 2, the others went at 66 bid price.
sometimes ya need to fight with the lion in order to get your fair share of the meat.
oh the coins were dupes to what I already had/have...
screw the sheet- and go for what you want, unless you are really hungry.
average coins.
Grey sheet was more or less the retail price that they sold at.
Guess I was wrong.
Steve
In this case, I certainly don't want to pay anywhere near greysheet bid of $715 for the coin unless it is exceptional. The bluesheet level of $480 is a much more accurate representation of what the coin is worth wholesale. In fact, for this particular coin, the $715 greysheet bid is based on a sight seen offer for 1 coin. The particular bidder will not accept an average coin, but wants an exceptional coin for the grade. Below this bidder, the next bids are at the bluesheet levels.
So, a dealer who uses a bluesheet is not necessarily a crook. There are coins like an 1881 Morgan that I would probably only be interested in at around bluesheet unless the coin was exceptional for a MS-65 piece. But, that said, don't let someone use the bluesheet as a means to underpay for eye appealing and desirable coins.
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1903-O PCGS 63 (rattler even thought that should not matter)
<< <i>I think the people who believe that any dealer using bluesheet is a crook are a little misinformed. Sure, if you are showing key date coins that are desirable and solid for the grade and a dealer is using a bluesheet to lowball you, then that is a problem. But some coins are simply not worth greysheet levels. Use an 1881 Morgan Dollar in PCGS or NGC MS-65 for example. Greysheet bid for the coin is $715, and bluesheet bid for the coin is only $480. Looking at Heritage auction results, one can see that the coin routinely brings $500-600 in auctions. Sure, some very nice coins have bring more than that, but many of the coins in the $500-600 range are decent coins for the grade, not pigs.
In this case, I certainly don't want to pay anywhere near greysheet bid of $715 for the coin unless it is exceptional. The bluesheet level of $480 is a much more accurate representation of what the coin is worth wholesale. In fact, for this particular coin, the $715 greysheet bid is based on a sight seen offer for 1 coin. The particular bidder will not accept an average coin, but wants an exceptional coin for the grade. Below this bidder, the next bids are at the bluesheet levels.
So, a dealer who uses a bluesheet is not necessarily a crook. There are coins like an 1881 Morgan that I would probably only be interested in at around bluesheet unless the coin was exceptional for a MS-65 piece. But, that said, don't let someone use the bluesheet as a means to underpay for eye appealing and desirable coins. >>
This is a good real life example of a particular coin that is generally not worth anywhere near Greysheet numbers. If an 1881-P Morgan in MS65 was offered for sale to me and I did not have a specific customer for it I would want to pay back of Bluesheet for it and in turn sell it to another dealer at the most I figure I could feasibly get for it, which is probably at or slightly below Bluesheet bid. The 1881-P in MS65 is a classic example of a better date Morgan that is seldomly sought after and is readily available in high grades at prices around sight-unseen levels.
I just checked the bids for the 1881-P in MS65 PCGS and other than one bid for CAC stickered examples the current high sight-seen bid is $472.00, a number that is close to the current Bluesheet bid. The current sight-seen high bid for an NGC example is $470.00.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"