for anyone selling on e-bay please read this....

silvergoldnut · March 30, 2009 11:17AM

well it happen to me today that a coin was taking out of the package and the buyer never got the coin. not to worried about the buyer as he is 100% feedback and is sending me all the paperwork he started for me at the post office.

BUT , i learned something about paypal, if you sell on e-bay and you don't have ins. on the item, you are out the money.

SO on the bright side if i buy i'll never pay for ins. again. the seller can state all he wants on the listing the buyer will ALWAYS win this one.
as told to me by paypal.

SOME seller protection they have!!!!

MsMorrisine · March 30, 2009 11:21AM

paypal sucks

braddick · March 30, 2009 11:27AM

How would you have Paypal handle that policy any different?

Russ · March 30, 2009 11:31AM

<< if you sell on e-bay and you don't have ins. on the item, you are out the money. >>

Uh, duh.

Russ, NCNE

jessewvu · March 30, 2009 11:35AM

You will soon find out that even if you had insurance, the post office would not have given you your money back if the buyer accepted the package. I had a seller, Rick38liner (or something like that) receive an $800 coin and stated he didn't get it (which he did, he was lying about it and got caught). PayPal decided to give the buyer back his money after he filed a "significantly not as described" claim (after his did not receive claim was denied when I provided proof of delivery via his signature). The post office would not pay my insurance claim because the package did not show signs of tampering (because it was delivered in good order to the jerk that bought it).

PayPal sides with the buyer 99.999999% of the time, regardless of any proof you have. The Post Office will not let you claim insurance if the package was delivered. If you read their fine print, the insurance is against loss or damage of the PACKAGE, not the contents. If the package shows signs of obvious tampering prior to delivery, then you are in luck, but if the buyer just lies and says you sent an empty box, they get your coin and will soon get their money back too, all thanks to PayPal.

Good luck.

PAYPAL SUCKS ARSE

TomB · March 30, 2009 11:37AM

The post office will allow a claim for packages that are delivered even if the damaged goods are not obvious upon delivery.

Robb · March 30, 2009 11:37AM

Insurance is to protect the seller from loss, not the buyer. You have the option of requiring the buyer pay for insurance when you create the eBay auction.

bigbadchad777 · March 30, 2009 11:38AM

I had a guy to receive his UHR gold coin today and the registered package was crushed and the US Mint boxes were damaged a little but the coin was safe in a PCGS slab. The buyer is pissed at me and wanting a refund and me to deal witrh the postal system. I thought he would have to file the claim since he has the damaged product. And what becomes of the coin? I asked him why he even accepted the box if it was so badly damaged. No reply. This guy seems to be trouble. ANy advise?

BAJJERFAN · March 30, 2009 11:47AM

<< You will soon find out that even if you had insurance, the post office would not have given you your money back if the buyer accepted the package. I had a seller, Rick38liner (or something like that) receive an $800 coin and stated he didn't get it (which he did, he was lying about it and got caught). PayPal decided to give the buyer back his money after he filed a "significantly not as described" claim (after his did not receive claim was denied when I provided proof of delivery via his signature). The post office would not pay my insurance claim because the package did not show signs of tampering (because it was delivered in good order to the jerk that bought it).

PayPal sides with the buyer 99.999999% of the time, regardless of any proof you have. The Post Office will not let you claim insurance if the package was delivered. If you read their fine print, the insurance is against loss or damage of the PACKAGE, not the contents. If the package shows signs of obvious tampering prior to delivery, then you are in luck, but if the buyer just lies and says you sent an empty box, they get your coin and will soon get their money back too, all thanks to PayPal.

Good luck.

PAYPAL SUCKS ARSE >>

On a SNAD, does not PP require proof that the item has been returned before they release the funds. If the buyer returns it and it gets lost are you SOL? Buyer has no right to keep your item and your $$$ so it would seem that legal action against PP and the buyer is appropriate. If PP requires DC or sig conf for the orig shipping they ought to require the same for an item being returned.

MsMorrisine · March 30, 2009 11:50AM

<< I had a guy to receive his UHR gold coin today and the registered package was crushed and the US Mint boxes were damaged a little but the coin was safe in a PCGS slab. The buyer is pissed at me and wanting a refund and me to deal witrh the postal system. I thought he would have to file the claim since he has the damaged product. And what becomes of the coin? I asked him why he even accepted the box if it was so badly damaged. No reply. This guy seems to be trouble. ANy advise? >>

bst for just the box

puritan9 · March 30, 2009 11:57AM

Jesse is correct. I just lost about $200 with Pay Pal. A package was delivered to Russia with Express tape all over the box. The person claimed that the product was not as described and Pay Pal gave her her money back. The package was opened from the bottom and retaped(she used regular tape because she didn't have Express tape). The item was swapped with a broken one. The package was triple boxed with peanuts with full insurance. The claim was denied in Russia because the box was not damaged and sent back to me with the damage product. Not only did I lose the product, but I also paid to ship it to Russia.

Pay Pal @#$%^&*()__*&%%

notwilight · March 30, 2009 11:59AM

<< Insurance is to protect the seller from loss, not the buyer. >>

I used to think this. Insurance is a huge cash cow for the USPS. If you can afford to self insure inexpensive items, and you do a good job shipping, you'll come out ahead, probably by a factor of 5 to 10. A seller is better protected by absorbing an occasional loss. --Jerry

silvergoldnut · March 30, 2009 12:04PM

well i might be in luck on this one becuase not only did the buyer go to the post office to show them the opened package. he started the paperwork for me. and now is shipping the whole thing to me.

i will refund his money as i don't think he's trying to pull a fast one.

but what i learn is when i look for coins on e-bay i won't be buying extra ins. and save my money.

boucharda · March 30, 2009 9:22PM

So see if I got this right:

PayPal covers the seller if sig. confirmation is purchased (but NOT if the package is delivered and the buyer states there is an issue with the product)

USPS covers the package if insurance is purchased (but not if delivered to buyer as sent)

SO if the seller pays for BOTH insurance and electronic sig. confirmation ( a tad costly) the seller is covered by both

Ummmmm....No...All the buyer needs to do is say the package did not contain what was purchased and the seller is still screwed by the buyer (and PP and USPS won't help)

I think it's called "theft" and they WILL get away with it

Edited to add:

<< not to worried about the buyer as he is 100% feedback >>

How can a buyer NOT have 100% feedback???????? You can't neg 'em

TwoSides2aCoin · March 30, 2009 9:32PM

There are lessons in almost every thread. The operative word is "almost".

Please enjoy the music while your coin is located.

Check in, but don't check out !

OPA · March 30, 2009 10:26PM

<< BUT , i learned something about paypal, if you sell on e-bay and you don't have ins. on the item, you are out the money. >>

Don't mean to bring you the bad news this early in the AM, but that's true anywhere. It's been mentioned a "million" times before.."Insurance protects the seller & not the buyer."

BBN · March 30, 2009 10:31PM

<< 

BUT , i learned something about paypal, if you sell on e-bay and you don't have ins. on the item, you are out the money.

>>

This is where alot of sellers miss the boat. Many times in their auctions they'll say they are not responsible for lost items in the mail without insurance. I don't know how they convinced themselves of this because they are in fact responsible

coinpictures · March 30, 2009 11:11PM

<< 

<< 

BUT , i learned something about paypal, if you sell on e-bay and you don't have ins. on the item, you are out the money.

>>

This is where alot of sellers miss the boat. Many times in their auctions they'll say they are not responsible for lost items in the mail without insurance. I don't know how they convinced themselves of this because they are in fact responsible >>

Yup. "Not responsible for lost or damaged packages" is a waste of everyone's time because nothing could be further from the truth.

nycounsel · March 31, 2009 5:31AM

I sold a mint sealed box set to a buyer -- he opened the box, and complained that one of the capsules was open so filed a significantly not as described dispute. Paypal sided with the buyer, and refunded the entire amount - including postage of $15, which did not even cover my actual mailing and insurance expense (almost $50). So I lost about $50 in postage and insurance, and received an open box set when I had sent a sealed box.

Adding insult to injury, yesterday I discovered Paypal had frozen my account for having a negative balance because they failed to reimburse me the $115 fee they charged me for the voided transaction! They corrected it when I called them, but I wonder how many people even catch that kind of error.

Paypal has serious problems -- leaves sellers at the mercy of the good will of the buyer. Fortunately most buyers are honest, but paypal makes it all too easy for dishonest buyers to rip people off.

slipgate · March 31, 2009 5:51AM

As far as I know, as long as you are set up as a credit card merchant, you can REFUSE to accept paypal and accept your own credit cards. Is this not true?

If it is, why not go the extra yard and get the merchant account so you can accept CC payments yourself? It must be less than paypal fees and the suffering of the losses right?

19Lyds · March 31, 2009 6:09AM

<< How would you have Paypal handle that policy any different? >>

Well, first off, PayPal is supposed to act as a money agent, holding my funds and then paying those funds out as I authorize them to do through my instructions. (i.e. I buy, I refund, or I withdraw)

In the case of "The Buyer is Always Right", I would prefer that PayaPal not indescriminantly take money out of my account or freeze money thats in my account without due process over a disagreement between buyer and seller. In other words, act as my agent and not my buyers agent! Let ME control my account and not someone that has PUT money INTO my account.

However, since PayPal is a subsidiary of eBay, and eBay prefers coddling its buyers (vs the folks that actually make money for them), it goes without saying that PayPal will ALWAYS side with the buyer.

As for insurance, thats an entirely different subject! I prefer my insurance to be of the kind where I can ship a replacement instead of waiting 30 days to settle a Post Office claim which could turn into a lonmg nightmare if the proper folks get their hands on it.

pheh · March 31, 2009 7:42AM

You story is a bit misleading (I get it, but wasn't sure at first):

- PayPal does cover you without insurance IF you have tracking on $250 and under and you can verify your package was delivered.

- PayPal does cover you without insurance IF you have signature confirmation on $250.01 and over and you can show it was signed for.

If the post office themselves lose your package you need insurance. PayPal is protecting you from bad buyers, not bad postal delivery. This is exactly as it should be.

Now, what I don't like is their SNAD policy. Though I've never had it happen, it is certainly feasible for a buyer to file a SNAD dispute, return a package full of cat poop, and get their money back. I will also advise that you need to keep on top of PayPal when you have money in dispute, as disputes will happen to anyone that spends enough time on eBay. If protection kicks in or a claim is filed in your favor - make sure you get your money back. I have had both a dispute and a bank reversal file in my favor but the money sit in limbo for weeks after it was closed. When I called them up, both times the agent had "forgotten" to complete the transaction and give me back my money.

derryb · March 31, 2009 7:55AM

The advantage of printing/paying postage on-line through paypal: In a dispute Paypal has immediate access to all shipping info electronically. From your paypal account they see what you paid for (del. confirmation is automatic, signature confirmation extra), They see the tracking number, and they see the usps tracking info. They access all this in your account without having to ask you for anything. As a seller, I recently won a dispute on item not received and I didn't have to provide paypal with anything - they already had it the moment i purchased a usps shipping label through paypal. Insurance, purchased or not, has nothing to do with their handling of the dispute.

Insurance protects the seller. Item belongs to seller until such time buyer signs for it. If they never sign for it, they never received it. Paypal will and probably should side with buyer on this issue. Seller has responsibility of proving item was received by buyer. This is why paypal requires delivery/signature confirmation be purchased by seller.

Bottom line - Always offer free shipping, you control what that includes.

OnlyGoldIsMoney · March 31, 2009 7:58AM

<< 

<< 

BUT , i learned something about paypal, if you sell on e-bay and you don't have ins. on the item, you are out the money.

>>

This is where alot of sellers miss the boat. Many times in their auctions they'll say they are not responsible for lost items in the mail without insurance. I don't know how they convinced themselves of this because they are in fact responsible >>

Agreed - they don't understand their risk. I find that a good 1/3 to 1/2 of ebay sellers still offer insurance as an option and sternly remind the potential buyer that they are not responsible for any loss or damage of uninsured goods. Like many others here I include insurance in my shipping price when I sell on ebay - strictly for my protection. When given the option as a buyer I do not pay for postal insurance because the seller (whether they know it or not when paid via paypal) is responsible to make sure I receive the ebay item undamaged.

Russ · March 31, 2009 8:07AM

<< As far as I know, as long as you are set up as a credit card merchant, you can REFUSE to accept paypal and accept your own credit cards. >>

Yes you can. Then you can deal with all of the same issues that cause all the PayPal complaints AND you will have no protection for shipping to un-confirmed, (non-billing), addresses. PayPal provides this, merchant accounts do not.

Russ, NCNE

relicsncoins · March 31, 2009 8:18AM

<< You will soon find out that even if you had insurance, the post office would not have given you your money back if the buyer accepted the package. I had a seller, Rick38liner (or something like that) receive an $800 coin and stated he didn't get it (which he did, he was lying about it and got caught). PayPal decided to give the buyer back his money after he filed a "significantly not as described" claim (after his did not receive claim was denied when I provided proof of delivery via his signature). The post office would not pay my insurance claim because the package did not show signs of tampering (because it was delivered in good order to the jerk that bought it).

PayPal sides with the buyer 99.999999% of the time, regardless of any proof you have. The Post Office will not let you claim insurance if the package was delivered. If you read their fine print, the insurance is against loss or damage of the PACKAGE, not the contents. If the package shows signs of obvious tampering prior to delivery, then you are in luck, but if the buyer just lies and says you sent an empty box, they get your coin and will soon get their money back too, all thanks to PayPal.

Good luck.

PAYPAL SUCKS ARSE >>

How did he get caught, and what was the final outcome?

OPA · March 31, 2009 8:20AM

<< As far as I know, as long as you are set up as a credit card merchant, you can REFUSE to accept paypal and accept your own credit cards. Is this not true?

If it is, why not go the extra yard and get the merchant account so you can accept CC payments yourself? It must be less than paypal fees and the suffering of the losses right? >>

It always amazes me how uniformed some of our board members are. As Russ indicated, having your own merchant cc only means: you'll be handling the disputes yourself, and good luck with that scenario. All purchases made via a c.c. are covered by the "Fair Credit Billing Act." (FCBA) PayPal has no option but to abide by it.Fair Credit Billing Act.

jgrinz · March 31, 2009 8:26AM

<< 

<< if you sell on e-bay and you don't have ins. on the item, you are out the money. >>

Uh, duh.

Russ, NCNE >>

Ditto

puritan9 · March 31, 2009 8:41AM

Sell a perfect product with insurance, buyer opens it up from bottom and swaps it with damaged goods, Pay Pal sides with buyer and seller loses everything even shipping costs.

I am a power seller (Silver) and receive a 20% discount on fees each month, but it doesn't make a difference to Pay Pal/e-Bay.

I HATE Pay Pal

Coins101 · March 31, 2009 8:44AM

so, what stops a buyer from claiming you sent him cat poop instead of a coin? You can insure it, register it (registered mail), have them sign for it but it still boils down to your word that you sent the coin and his word he received cat poop.

So, how would PayPal handle this? Allow him to return the cat poop he said he received and keep your coin and gets his money back?

coinpictures · March 31, 2009 8:45AM

<< Sell a perfect product with insurance, buyer opens it up from bottom and swaps it with damaged goods, Pay Pal sides with buyer and seller loses everything even shipping costs.

I am a power seller (Silver) and receive a 20% discount on fees each month, but it doesn't make a difference to Pay Pal/e-Bay.

I HATE Pay Pal

>>

And if you had a merchant credit card account this would change the above scenario exactly how?

I'm amazed at the number of people who think that PayPal makes a seller so much more vulnerable than having your own merchant account.

I think some people just enjoy hating PayPal...

Coll3ctor · March 31, 2009 8:48AM

Last year I had a guy return a $50.00 silver eagle that I sold on eBay. When I opened the package there was a Chinese token enclosed. He got to keep my coin plus paypal gave him his money back. It took me an hour on the phone and talking to 3 different people for paypal to give me MY money back. The just kept saying that tracking showed the guy had returned my coin. They paid me out of their pocket.

TwoSides2aCoin · March 31, 2009 8:57AM

Coins101
Maybe the seller has a dog.

Coins101 · March 31, 2009 8:59AM

<< Coins101
Maybe the seller has a dog. >>

Now how would he get cat poop out of dog?

thisnamztaken · March 31, 2009 9:06AM

I always state "insurance is included in the shipping charge" on any items I list for over $100.00 on eBay! If you give the buyer the "option" to pay for insurance, they often WON"T!

boucharda · March 31, 2009 9:45AM

<< So, how would PayPal handle this? Allow him to return the cat poop he said he received and keep your coin and gets his money back? >>

Correct...that was my point

OnlyGoldIsMoney · March 31, 2009 10:11AM

<< Last year I had a guy return a $50.00 silver eagle that I sold on eBay. When I opened the package there was a Chinese token enclosed. He got to keep my coin plus paypal gave him his money back. It took me an hour on the phone and talking to 3 different people for paypal to give me MY money back. The just kept saying that tracking showed the guy had returned my coin. They paid me out of their pocket. >>

Who was the buyer? That is one to block.

Coxe · March 31, 2009 10:53AM

You can play the statistics of honesty and competence. Here are the issues as I see them.

(1) If the buyer accepts a package, no matter how much insurance you have purchased form the USPS and what the condition of the delivery, the post office is out of the loop and insurance claims are moot.
(2) A buyer can claim to have received the wrong coin or no coin even if he accepts the package. It is a matter of one's word against the other's. PayPal probably won't entertain a video detailing the packaging of the specific coin with a viewing for consideration. You failed to deliver because the buyer says you did. If the weight of the package matches? Coins, slabbed or raw, are of the nature of being indistinguishable from many of their brethren, rare and common, on weight.
(3) A seller can mail no coin or the wrong coin intentionally. The buyer probably would be supported in the matter by PayPal. Nonetheless, there is still buyer risk and at least a hassle.

Online sales, particularly eBay, have inherent risks associated directly with the post office. As a replier here put it, what else could PayPal do? Every participant in the process is dependent on the shipping integrity from seller to post office to buyer. Meg Whitman said, "eBay isn't for everyone." Truth is that every coin isn't appropriate to buy or sell on eBay. You just can't replace sight seen direct purchases all of the time.

puritan9 · March 31, 2009 11:35AM

PerryHall · March 31, 2009 7:43PM

If a package comes through the mail and the package is damaged or mangled, is it good strategy for the buyer to just refuse delivery and just let the seller and Post Office handle any insurance issues?

grabba · March 31, 2009 10:53PM

I think ever since the USPS changed to the different colors of insurance stickers placed on packages, it only made things more complicated. The different colors only advertise to a thief something of value is inside the package. I know USPS had good reasons for the changes but I don't think it was well thought out.

Boom · April 1, 2009 12:26AM

OK - so, we agree, unanimously, that there are problems with the system .... that ebay caters to buyers that can do no wrong (LOL - NOT)

We ALL agree, unanimously, that PP is equally fraught with injustices & issues that cater to the buyer! It's WRONG yet the way it is, like it or not!

So, as such, with all this being "given", if so empowered - what changes would YOU suggest be made to protect SELLERS from less than ethical BUYERS?

I'd like to hear suggestions that would rectify this lose/ lose situation. Granted, these problems are far too real!

What answer would make things right for all parties involved?

Let's turn this around and find a fix.

What say you?

mrpotatoheadd · April 1, 2009 12:49AM

<< So, as such, with all this being "given", if so empowered - what changes would YOU suggest be made to protect SELLERS from less than ethical BUYERS? >>

You want a solution? Here you go:

When a buyer claims "Item not received" and files for a refund of their PayPal payment, before doing anything else, PayPal contacts the seller to find out what's going on. If the seller is willing to voluntarily refund the buyer upon receipt of a completed insurance claim form, PayPal asks the seller to send the form to them, which they will forward to the buyer. After the buyer fills it out it, they send it back to PayPal, who verifies that it has been received. Then, they forward the form to the seller, who refunds the buyer. If the buyer refuses to cooperate in filing a claim for the loss, the buyer receives no refund.

PayPal says they do investigations when there are disputes (they ask for copies of stuff already), so receiving/forwarding an emailed insurance claim form would involve little more than confirming that the form has been received and sent along to the proper recipient.

MORGANHUNTER2 · April 1, 2009 1:05AM

<< 

<< Coins101
Maybe the seller has a dog. >>

Now how would he get cat poop out of dog? >>

ugly thought came to mind, but I have this friggin little dog that eats cat poop when she gets at the box!

yes dogs eat cat poop.

MORGANHUNTER2 · April 1, 2009 1:10AM

Ebay + PP= monopoly of their system.

Seller vs a bad Buyer +Ebay + PP= disaster for seller, if buyer is a crook.

Seller vs Buyer + Ebay + PP + USPS= serious issues that will NEVER be rectified in our life time.

Moral to the story= take your chances win or lose.

We live in a imperfect world. only GOD can fix it
12/20/2012- it may happen......

Coins101 · April 1, 2009 1:36AM

<< 

<< 

<< Coins101
Maybe the seller has a dog. >>

Now how would he get cat poop out of dog? >>

ugly thought came to mind, but I have this friggin little dog that eats cat poop when she gets at the box!

yes dogs eat cat poop. >>

Yup, I know dogs eat cat poop. However, is it still cat poop after the dog takes a dump?

Now, back on the subject. There is no answer as long as there are dishonest people out there. The only problem is the buyer is the only one who has a remedy.

stckplunge · April 1, 2009 1:47AM

I have had one dispute with a buyer for an amount of $190.00. Buyer signed for package (signature confirmation) and stated it was empty. Paypal did not believe him and set my account straight.

Jeff

Boom · April 1, 2009 2:20AM

What? Everyone complains yet only Mr Potatohead can come up with a logical response?

So, what is this - a bunch that loves to complain yet given the chance to offer solutions, have none?

What would YOU DO to rectify this dreadful "no-win" situation?

Let's have it.

Coins101 · April 1, 2009 2:34AM

No complaint here. However, one remedy for the HONEST seller would be eBay allowing payments other than PayPal. Go back to the way it use to be and allow MO, Cashiers Checks, personal checks and CASH!

Pretty simple, I believe.

puritan9 · April 1, 2009 3:59AM

When the "coin" is returned make sure you open the box in front of the post office agent at the post office. You will then have proof of what is inside.

Coins101 · April 1, 2009 4:14AM

<< When the "coin" is returned make sure you open the box in front of the post office agent at the post office. You will then have proof of what is inside. >>

Doesn't really matter if the buyer claims you sent an empty box or a box of cat poop as I am sure he will return an empty box (or the cat poop).

for anyone selling on e-bay please read this....

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