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Flying Eagle cent collectors and Pattern collectors Is this pattern desirable?

mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
To the Pattern collectors and Flying Eagle cent collectors, how desirable is this pattern:

J-207 1858 Flying Eagle Cent.

The pattern book states there are 2 known. I looked at one today making it the 3rd known and the dealer wanted 15k for it. How desirable is this pattern?? Are there people who really want this coin or is it rare but has a low desirability?

Thank you!
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    BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>To the Pattern collectors and Flying Eagle cent collectors, how desirable is this pattern:

    J-207 1858 Flying Eagle Cent.

    The pattern book states there are 2 known. I looked at one today making it the 3rd known and the dealer wanted 15k for it. How desirable is this pattern?? Are there people who really want this coin or is it rare but has a low desirability?

    Thank you! >>



    Was it raw or certified image
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
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    mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
    broadstruck it was a raw one. The dealer said it looked to be in MS65 condition based on his scale. From what I recall, that coin has been sitting in his case for over 15 yrs now.
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    RWBRWB Posts: 8,082 ✭
    The dealer said it looked to be in MS65 condition based on his scale.

    Does this scale happen to include his thumb?

    If you like the coin insist on having it independently authenticated before closing the deal.
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    STONESTONE Posts: 15,275 ✭


    << <i>The dealer said it looked to be in MS65 condition based on his scale.

    Does this scale happen to include his thumb?

    If you like the coin insist on having it independently authenticated before closing the deal. >>


    BINGO!!!

    15 years in a case and no sale for an R8 coin, that's poor marketing on his part.
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    BECOKABECOKA Posts: 16,957 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>The dealer said it looked to be in MS65 condition based on his scale.

    Does this scale happen to include his thumb?

    If you like the coin insist on having it independently authenticated before closing the deal. >>


    BINGO!!!

    15 years in a case and no sale for an R8 coin, that's poor marketing on his part. >>



    Could be that is the dealers way of keeping it in his collection. He might not want it to sell.
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    BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think DLRC's sold one in the last year or so in NGC plastic... images should be obtainable in their archives.
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
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    RYKRYK Posts: 35,789 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I like the flying eagle patterns, but unless you collect them by variety, the J-207 is probably not worth paying a premium for when you can get a nice Proof-65 J-202 for about $6000 (or less). I am going by memory and believe that the J-207 is a small FE pattern, so correct me if I am wrong.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
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    mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
    RYK, you are correct the J207 is the small eagle with the large letters and a agricultural wreath

    I had the patterns book in one hand and the other coin in the other examining it to make sure it was a J207.

    The book stated its rarity was R8 but I wanted to know its desirability which isn't that high I suppose.
    The reason it hasn't sold is because the town I'm in, people are not interested in such an expensive coin.
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    Steve27Steve27 Posts: 13,274 ✭✭✭


    << <i>broadstruck it was a raw one. The dealer said it looked to be in MS65 condition based on his scale. From what I recall, that coin has been sitting in his case for over 15 yrs now. >>




    I thought all (or close to all) patterns were considered to be proofs.
    "It's far easier to fight for principles, than to live up to them." Adlai Stevenson
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    MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,949 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Besides the usual caveats about buying raw coins, here's one more. Be sure it's copper, not copper nickel. J-206 is the same design in copper nickel, and it's nowhere near as rare.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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    RYKRYK Posts: 35,789 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>broadstruck it was a raw one. The dealer said it looked to be in MS65 condition based on his scale. From what I recall, that coin has been sitting in his case for over 15 yrs now. >>




    I thought all (or close to all) patterns were considered to be proofs. >>


    The dealer or OP probably meant "proof". That said, some of the early proof copper like the J-200's do not have such a sharp strike or reflective mirrors that they would stand out as proofs to the uninitiated.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
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    EagleEyeEagleEye Posts: 7,676 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The J-207 is the Small Eagle and regular 1858 reverse (low leaves) struck in copper. It is rare. I have not tracked any J-207's recently. I have tracked two J-207A which are pure nickel. I think they are in the same rarity/desirability range. I have sold one of the J-207A recently in that range, so I think the price is line with its rarity.

    Edited to add: the fact that he has had it a long while, I would guess that Mr.Eureka's caveat is probably the actual case.
    Rick Snow, Eagle Eye Rare Coins, Inc.Check out my new web site:
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    mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
    I'll bring a camera and take a bunch of pictures for you all to look at and determine grade, if its real, etc.
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    RYKRYK Posts: 35,789 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I'll bring a camera and take a bunch of pictures for you all to look at and determine grade, if its real, etc. >>



    Better yet, have the coin sent to EagleEye (sorry, Rick, in advance for volunteering your services image ) for authentication, imaging, classification, etc. If it really is a J-207, no one is more likely to have a buyer for it than EagleEye (or, perhaps, Legend).
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
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    mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
    ok, here are the pics!! Let me know what you guys think

    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
    image
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    mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
    lol realone I just wanted to make sure that eagleeye, mreureka and others had enough pics to determine anything about the coin
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    RYKRYK Posts: 35,789 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It looks like the real deal and a nice coin, but I would not be comfortable buying it without expert authentication and or slabbing. I am surprised that the dealer did not have that baby slabbed and sent to Heritage for auction. I really doubt someone is going to walk into his shop and drop $15k for it, as is.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
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    mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
    Anyone know a simple test to make sure its copper or does it involve a more complex test??

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    mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
    RYK, thanks for your response. This store owner has many coins and almost all are raw. He is pretty much against grading companies so its sat in his case all this time when it should have been sent in graded and authenticated.

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    BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Anyone know a simple test to make sure its copper or does it involve a more complex test?? >>



    Best just to leave it in the capitol holder and not mess with it.

    Looks copper from the images.

    Maybe a PF58-62 example from the images.
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
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    mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
    broadstruck thanks for your input.

    The obverse is beautiful as you can see in the pics. The back is brown lol.

    Definitely this coin needs to be sent to PCGS to authenticate making it the 3rd known!!!!
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    RYKRYK Posts: 35,789 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Anyone know a simple test to make sure its copper or does it involve a more complex test?? >>



    Best just to leave it in the capitol holder and not mess with it.

    Looks copper from the images.

    Maybe a PF58-62 example from the images. >>



    I agree with the copper assessment, but grading is tricky, especially from those photos. It could easily be a gem.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
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    RYKRYK Posts: 35,789 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>broadstruck thanks for your input.

    The obverse is beautiful as you can see in the pics. The back is brown lol.

    Definitely this coin needs to be sent to PCGS to authenticate making it the 3rd known!!!! >>



    My ninth edition Judd book indicates 3 known.
    My Box of 20: https://pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/box-20/ryks-gold-box-20/17132
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    mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
    RYK, I must have been looking at a older edition! so this would be the 4th known then........what grades are the other 3???
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    BroadstruckBroadstruck Posts: 30,497 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>

    << <i>Anyone know a simple test to make sure its copper or does it involve a more complex test?? >>



    Best just to leave it in the capitol holder and not mess with it.

    Looks copper from the images.

    Maybe a PF58-62 example from the images. >>



    I agree with the copper assessment, but grading is tricky, especially from those photos. It could easily be a gem. >>



    True... better to be conservative as there's a mighty likely chance that it would BB a multiples of reasons, hence it's life in a capitol holder.
    To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
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    mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
    I've been informed by someone to have this seller submit it in and regardkess of the grade, the important thing is if comes back genuine.
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    MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,949 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nobody can say with certainty that that piece is bronze or copper without testing it. C-N can look just like copper or bronze when deeply toned. Surprising, maybe, but true.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,294 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's pretty easy to get it tested, unless of course one doesn't want to have the true composition known. image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    RKKayRKKay Posts: 3,015 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Nobody can say with certainty that that piece is bronze or copper without testing it. C-N can look just like copper or bronze when deeply toned. Surprising, maybe, but true. >>



    Agree 100%. It must be SEM-EDXd. I've tested coins I was certain was bronze or copper which tested out C-N and vice versa.
    Rick Kay
    Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns

    <
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    LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,294 ✭✭✭✭✭
    RKKay:

    Slow internet connection?? image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
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    RKKayRKKay Posts: 3,015 ✭✭✭


    << <i>RKKay:

    Slow internet connection?? image >>


    Slow reader.image
    Rick Kay
    Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns

    <
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    mkman123mkman123 Posts: 6,849 ✭✭✭✭
    Eagleeye, do you have any idea why the dealer never sent the coin to you??? I went to the store like a week or so ago and its still sitting in the case!!

    Weird how the seller wouldn't send this to Rick and have it tested............
    I was around when Rick called him and I thought the coin dealer mentioned he was going to send it to Rick but nothing happened....
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    PLEPLE Posts: 193 ✭✭
    I doubt that there are really just three of these J-207 patterns. Because it's so hard to tell whether its copper, it is probable that many coins already graded as J-206 are really J-207s. As a result, I would not pay $15,000, even if authenticated. In my opinion, a pattern should represent a design change. A change in metal is not very interesting, unless the metal is nickel or aluminum. For nickel and aluminum, you can clearly see that the coin is very different. If nobody can tell whether its Copper or Copper-Nickel without testing, then a premium price doesn't make sense to me.

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