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I'm becoming a CAC convert. 1893-S Morgan case study examined
greghansen
Posts: 4,301 ✭✭✭
When the CAC idea was first floated, I kind of 'poo-pooed' the whole notion as being unnecessary and primarily a way for dealers to charge more for part of their inventory. For well versed graders, there may still be some merit behind those sentiments. But for most collectors there is some additional value or safety found in buying CAC coins.
Space limitations dictate that I only post a single example to illustrate my point. With all apologies to anybody who owns the lesser of the two coins posted, and to PCGS who labeled both of these coins XF40, the following two coins are both 1893-S Morgan Dollars in PCGS XF40 slabs. Both sets of pictures taken by Heritage and from the color and tone of slabs, the lighting appears to be approximately the same for both. To me, the difference in quality, value and re-saleability of these two coins is quite extreme for coins of the same grade. I wouldn't pay anywhere near bid for the non-CAC coin and would pay beyond bid for the CAC coin.
I find myself having to re-evaluate the value of CAC in the marketplace.
Space limitations dictate that I only post a single example to illustrate my point. With all apologies to anybody who owns the lesser of the two coins posted, and to PCGS who labeled both of these coins XF40, the following two coins are both 1893-S Morgan Dollars in PCGS XF40 slabs. Both sets of pictures taken by Heritage and from the color and tone of slabs, the lighting appears to be approximately the same for both. To me, the difference in quality, value and re-saleability of these two coins is quite extreme for coins of the same grade. I wouldn't pay anywhere near bid for the non-CAC coin and would pay beyond bid for the CAC coin.
I find myself having to re-evaluate the value of CAC in the marketplace.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
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Comments
<< <i> I wouldn't pay anywhere near bid for the non-CAC coin and would pay beyond bid for the CAC coin. >>
Just out of curiosity, would you have drawn a different conclusion in the absence of CAC?
<< <i>Lighting is different in each case. Check the color of the PCGS logo. >>
Label looks washed out
on key areas.
originality should not really come into play with either coin as I consider
both of them to be cleaned up.. one more then the other. blu62vette
has a key idea also. The other coin could very well sticker based on grade
alone.
<< <i>First one looks original and nice, second one is a whizzed dog that should not be in a PCGS slab. I agree that there is a large difference in value here. However, I have found some CAC coins I did not like for the grade, so I stlll trust myself more than I trust the sticker, if you know what I mean. >>
i would not be so quick to label the coin as a whizzed dog. I can
take a coin like that, rotate/angle it a tiny bit, retake the pictures and it
amazingly does not look whizzed anymore.
I could also probably take the top coin, rotate/angle it a bit, and make it
appear in a much worse (honest) light.
as for originality.. both coins have been cleaned up. just take the bottom
one out of the slab for a year or two and it will tone up like the one above. The cleanings just happened in different time frames allowing
one to tone a bit after and one to not. The top coin has that perfect
"halo" look around every device which is often a sure sign it was cleaned
up in the past, to me, in my opinion.
Edited for spelling, and to add that the coin was a Morgan Dollar graded MS65 by PCGS.
FrederickCoinClub
The second coin is not bad for the grade. It's market acceptable. Let me crack out the second coin and pass it around for a while. We'll get 'er back to normal, re-graded and get her a CAC sticker, Greg.
I'll need about 4 or 5 years with it
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
Good question. In this series and grade range I would not have needed to CAC sticker to keep me away from the 2nd coin or to confirm my enthusiasm for the first. BTW, I do not own either coin in case anybody wondered. But since I am leaning towards putting together a Box of 20 Type set, I know I'm not going to get as familiar with 20 series as I am with Morgans. As a result...to keep myself out of making a stupid purchase (especially when it comes to gold which I know little about) I'm thinking I'm going to have to take the CAC label more seriously when evaluating coins outside my area.
I realize and agree that you can't tell EVERYTHING from a photo, but I disagree that you can't tell ANYTHING from a photo. Anybody who thinks the two posted coins are probably equal in appearance 'in hand'; I strongly disagree. Anybody who thinks there is no market value difference between the two posted coins; I strongly disagree. Most of the other qualifying statements I agree with.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
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<< <i>The bottom coin has been dipped to lighten it, which enhances the scuffs from circulation. The toning on the top coin enhances the details. >>
Yep, I agree. Take that top coin and dip it and see if it still warrants a CAC sticker.
Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
<< <i>
<< <i>The bottom coin has been dipped to lighten it, which enhances the scuffs from circulation. The toning on the top coin enhances the details. >>
Yep, I agree. Take that top coin and dip it and see if it still warrants a CAC sticker. >>
Does CAC sticker coins that have been dipped?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The bottom coin has been dipped to lighten it, which enhances the scuffs from circulation. The toning on the top coin enhances the details. >>
Yep, I agree. Take that top coin and dip it and see if it still warrants a CAC sticker. >>
Does CAC sticker coins that have been dipped? >>
CAC stickers coins that they deem proper for the grade with the quality that they'd buy back. This is what I've gathered from reading and talking to some "in the know" people.
``https://ebay.us/m/KxolR5
<< <i>As a result...to keep myself out of making a stupid purchase (especially when it comes to gold which I know little about) I'm thinking I'm going to have to take the CAC label more seriously when evaluating coins outside my area. >>
I hear ya
Text
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<< <i>
<< <i>As a result...to keep myself out of making a stupid purchase (especially when it comes to gold which I know little about) I'm thinking I'm going to have to take the CAC label more seriously when evaluating coins outside my area. >>
I hear ya
Text >>
edited.. if i am too lazy to get the pics.. why bother mention it.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>As a result...to keep myself out of making a stupid purchase (especially when it comes to gold which I know little about) I'm thinking I'm going to have to take the CAC label more seriously when evaluating coins outside my area. >>
I hear ya
Text >>
edited.. if i am too lazy to get the pics.. why bother mention it. >>
Huh?
<< <i>Just out of curiosity, would you have drawn a different conclusion in the absence of CAC?
Good question. In this series and grade range I would not have needed to CAC sticker to keep me away from the 2nd coin or to confirm my enthusiasm for the first. BTW, I do not own either coin in case anybody wondered. But since I am leaning towards putting together a Box of 20 Type set, I know I'm not going to get as familiar with 20 series as I am with Morgans. As a result...to keep myself out of making a stupid purchase (especially when it comes to gold which I know little about) I'm thinking I'm going to have to take the CAC label more seriously when evaluating coins outside my area.
I realize and agree that you can't tell EVERYTHING from a photo, but I disagree that you can't tell ANYTHING from a photo. Anybody who thinks the two posted coins are probably equal in appearance 'in hand'; I strongly disagree. Anybody who thinks there is no market value difference between the two posted coins; I strongly disagree. Most of the other qualifying statements I agree with. >>
It appears the CAC sticker is just a foil in this discussion. The discussion would have been very similar three years ago, before CAC started up, so I don't understand the bit about reevaluating the value of CAC in the marketplace. Any veteran Morgan collector would tell you that the first coin is better looking than the second, sticker, no sticker, slab, no slab, grade, no grade. That said, if there is no image, or the buyer is a 1st day newbie, or know-nothing coin investor that only looks at the grade and not at the coin, the CAC sticker might be of some modest help. I don't know how much of the overall coin market that translates into, but as far as forum regulars, it is an extremely low number.
With all that, I think the first coin also looks suspect, as in possibly dipped and retoned. The color seems a bit off for XF40.
<< <i>It appears the CAC sticker is just a foil in this discussion. The discussion would have been very similar three years ago, before CAC started up, so I don't understand the bit about reevaluating the value of CAC in the marketplace. >>
I think greghanson was making the point that without the CAC sticker he wouldn't have known which coin to buy.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I don't think this decision has anything to do with the sticker as the other one is accurately graded and might get a sticker too.
Sorry but I don't see the point of the sticker in this case as the coin with better eye appeal would be a winner with or without the sticker. At least from the photo's.
It is my opinion that most members here may know 2-5 series really well, but in no way have the depth of knowledge comparable to the professional graders grading across all series. For those of us who dedicate 5-15 hours a week at most to this hobby...there is no way (short of blind arrogance) that we can hope to have the same depth of knowledge of the full time professionals. My comments are not relevant to those of you who are full timers or dealers who put your money where your mouth is every day of the week. For those of us who are 'weekend warrior' collectors or dealers...and I think that is a lot of us...the only point I was making is I'm having newfound respect for a CAC sticker if its on a coin in a series I'm not familiar with. Why? Because I see how they treat the coins in the series I am familiar with. Those of you that don't thing the first coin is a PQ XF40...I have nothing else for you...I just strongly disagree. It's excellent as hell IMO.
My over riding point was that if I'm interested in a type coin in a series I don't know so well...I'm now much more likely to pay up for the CAC coin. That's it...nothing more.
Greg Hansen, Melbourne, FL Click here for any current EBAY auctions Multiple "Circle of Trust" transactions over 14 years on forum
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<< <i> My over riding point was that if I'm interested in a type coin in a series I don't know so well...I'm now much more likely to pay up for the CAC coin. That's it...nothing more. >>
OK, but the flaw in your logic is that there are "CAC mistakes" out there, and also "correctly" stickered coins that I guarantee
you will not want to own. Furthermore, there are a ton of great coins that have never been sent to CAC, and you'll
lose again by automatically removing those from consideration. Just as with plastic, there are no shortcuts...
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"Sou Mangueira......."
plus, there are many collectors who would pay a premium for the look of coin #2 (i ain't in that catagory though)
K S
Coin two represents what is wrong in the hobby... alittle enhancement, bring out alittle lustre and hope for a 45 and sell it for $1,000 more.
I will not take this opportunity to push for an original surfaces designation... I have accepted the fact that no one is listening even though it is long overdue
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The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!
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<< <i>Wow...I step out for a spring training game (which the Washington Nations won 2-0 over Houston) and folks get all sorts of cranky about what I thought was a fairly innocuous post. Folks have extrapolated my purpose of starting the thread several different directions. I now wonder if I shouldn't have just posted my thoughts about the evolving role of CAC in the marketplace and left out the pictyures entirely. The post wasn't really intended to be about the 2 different 1893-S dollars. I did think, however, that for folks who don't specialize in the Morgan series, they might be interested in seeing how much difference there could be between 2 coins of the same grade in the same slab.
It is my opinion that most members here may know 2-5 series really well, but in no way have the depth of knowledge comparable to the professional graders grading across all series. For those of us who dedicate 5-15 hours a week at most to this hobby...there is no way (short of blind arrogance) that we can hope to have the same depth of knowledge of the full time professionals. My comments are not relevant to those of you who are full timers or dealers who put your money where your mouth is every day of the week. For those of us who are 'weekend warrior' collectors or dealers...and I think that is a lot of us...the only point I was making is I'm having newfound respect for a CAC sticker if its on a coin in a series I'm not familiar with. Why? Because I see how they treat the coins in the series I am familiar with. Those of you that don't thing the first coin is a PQ XF40...I have nothing else for you...I just strongly disagree. It's excellent as hell IMO.
My over riding point was that if I'm interested in a type coin in a series I don't know so well...I'm now much more likely to pay up for the CAC coin. That's it...nothing more. >>
The last part is good to know. I'm sure the CAC backers will be glad to hear it. It might have been more instructive if you showed pics of two real coins that you did consider, online or in person, and how the sticker influenced your decision.
If you want to make it a "Pepsi challenge" leave out the commentary until others have voted on the coins. Just post the pics of the two coins and make it a poll of which coin the readers like better and why. Only after the votes are in, reveal the sticker and the prices and other details about how the sticker influenced your buying decision. That kind of polling would filter those that don't like the stickers, and folks would focus more about the coins.
I believe if you did that with the two coins featured here, the first coin would have won by something like a 4-to-1 margin (80% to 20%) by those readers with an opinion. If they were offered at true auction, I would guess the first coin sells for about 50% more than the second coin. Maybe next time, try letting the readers vote before you express your opinion, or reveal which dog in the hunt is your dog. Ownership does add a point when grading and a point of view when talking about other points.
After your post I did look at some images of some other coins of the same date/mintmark. The first coin does stand out as very nice. A good many being sold are flat out ugly.