Ebay... What form of shipping is best to be able to satisfy Paypal should a dispute arise?

zeebob

I keep seeing more and more reports of buyers back charging sellers and Paypal siding with buyers. I have had that experience once, but it was just for a junk coin and I really didn't care if Paypal and the buyer stole $5 or whatever it was.

But I'm thinking about flipping a couple of 2006 MS70 first-strike gold buffalo's (in NGC plastic) on Ebay and dread the idea of being ripped off for $1250 (per coin).

So I'm thinking I'll do everything by the Paypal book to minimize my chances of being ripped off.

When I ship, should I use Registered? Or print the labels on Paypal? Or use UPS with signature required? What is the best method to ship a moderately expensive item to minimize the chances of Paypal siding (long term) with a buyer on a dispute?

Coinlearner

Over $500 I go REGISTERED with electronic return receipt(More info an sig. conf.) but many see it best to add the regular signature confirmation to reg.

OPA

In order to be covered by the PayPal sellers protection for items above $250.00 electronic Signature Confirmation must be available. E. Signature Confirmation is available via the Parcel Registered Rate, but not on the Letter Registered Rate.

Connecticoin

Under $250, you need Delivery Confirmation, $250 and over you need Signature Confirmation.

Raufus

Depending on price and the size of the package I use USPS Priority Insured or Registered (with appropriate value declared) with Signature Confirmation.

For items over $2K I use registered.

For items over $4K I use registered, restricted delivery. While Sig. Conf. is redundant with Regis., it is easier to get an electronic signature with it (and cheaper) should there be a dispute.

barbershopper

Do not use a signature only ship!!!
Send it and charge full price for registered mail.
Make that clear in the listing.
That way, you'll have evidence in hand if something happens.
With signature only, you don't get squat.
As good ol' Charlie Brown would say, Good Grief!
This situation seems to be escalating at a geometric pace.
I wish you the best of luck.
JT

drwstr123

I'm thinking Paypal is owned by the Post Office. With all the superfluous charges, the cost of business insures the PO stays in the bucks.

coinpictures

<< <i>Do not use a signature only ship!!!
Send it and charge full price for registered mail.
Make that clear in the listing.
That way, you'll have evidence in hand if something happens.
With signature only, you don't get squat.
As good ol' Charlie Brown would say, Good Grief!
This situation seems to be escalating at a geometric pace.
I wish you the best of luck.
JT >>



Huh? It's exactly the opposite with PayPal. Registered mail means exactly DICK to them; only the Signature Confirmation is what matters.

derryb

For items over $250 the over the counter "electronic return receipt" is only $1 and paypal has assured me that it meets there electronic signature requirement. All of my registered shipments (over $600) get the electronic return receipt option. I have mailed hundreds of registered coins and never had a problem. Just make sure that in your listing you make it clear that you are shipping with the SLOWER but more secure registered mail. It helps to get it right out to the post office once the payment to you is made by the buyer.

jessewvu

How about this. You send a package via USPS Registered mail, fully insured. The buyer says you shipped him a box of staples. He files a dispute, you lose. It IS that simple with a PayPal dispute. End of dispute. Oh wait, I forgot they take the $$ back somewhere in there.

coinpictures

<< <i>How about this. You send a package via USPS Registered mail, fully insured. The buyer says you shipped him a box of staples. He files a dispute, you lose. It IS that simple with a PayPal dispute. End of dispute. Oh wait, I forgot they take the $$ back somewhere in there. >>



It's that simple with a merchant credit card account as well. Hazards of the trade with electronic payments.

jessewvu

Yep, I know this first hand. I am going to remove my PayPal account from eBay transactions. I think I can still do that, can't i?

notwilight

paypal likes you to use paypal shipping...imagine that. --Jerry

Raufus

<< <i>How about this. You send a package via USPS Registered mail, fully insured. The buyer says you shipped him a box of staples. He files a dispute, you lose. It IS that simple with a PayPal dispute. End of dispute. Oh wait, I forgot they take the $$ back somewhere in there. >>



I would explain to the buyer that I was going to take the case to the US Postal Inspector's Office and that he may be convicted of a federal felony. Perhaps he would then reconsider.

coinpictures

<< <i>Yep, I know this first hand. I am going to remove my PayPal account from eBay transactions. I think I can still do that, can't i? >>



As long as you have a credit card merchant account, yes. You MUST accept either PayPal or have a merchant credit card account. No exceptions.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>How about this. You send a package via USPS Registered mail, fully insured. The buyer says you shipped him a box of staples. He files a dispute, you lose. It IS that simple with a PayPal dispute. End of dispute. Oh wait, I forgot they take the $$ back somewhere in there. >>



WTF does the fact that the recipient took delivery have to do with what the seller put in the package? If you don't use sig conf and buyer says you put in rocks instead of coins then buyer wins? But if you put in rocks and use sig conf then you win? Wuts wrong with that pic? PP needs to have their sorry asses hauled into court.

BAJJERFAN

It doesn't matter how you ship it, only that you can prove online that the intended person got it.

jessewvu

<< <i>

<< <i>How about this. You send a package via USPS Registered mail, fully insured. The buyer says you shipped him a box of staples. He files a dispute, you lose. It IS that simple with a PayPal dispute. End of dispute. Oh wait, I forgot they take the $$ back somewhere in there. >>



WTF does the fact that the recipient took delivery have to do with what the seller put in the package? If you don't use sig conf and buyer says you put in rocks instead of coins then buyer wins? But if you put in rocks and use sig conf then you win? Wuts wrong with that pic? PP needs to have their sorry asses hauled into court. >>




I shipped an item via USPS Priority mail, insured, with electronic signature confirmation. The buyer stated that I did not put the coins in the box. He filed a Significantly not as described dispute, PayPal sided with him. PayPal took $815 out of my account and gave it back to him. Very long story short, the guy was caught in a lie and PayPal could have cared less. He still has my coins and his $815 back. The USPS denied my insurance claim because they proved it was delivered, via his signature, and they said there was not damage to the box (because he got the coins..). I couldn't file charges because he is in another state and it would be nearly impossible to prove in court I suppose. His lying tongue against me.

eBay and PayPal are a great place to scam people from your couch and get away with it.

mrpotatoheadd

From PayPal's user agreement:

11.8 What are examples of items/transactions that are not eligible for seller protection?

Claims or Chargebacks for Significantly Not as Described.

kevinstang

<< <i>From PayPal's user agreement:

11.8 What are examples of items/transactions that are not eligible for seller protection?

Claims or Chargebacks for Significantly Not as Described. >>



Thats exactly what the buyer used against me today to get an instant lock on my paypal account for a coin he recieved and was not happy with- even though the details he mentioned were mentioned in auction about the coin.

BAJJERFAN

So what exactly [in a nutshell] is this seller protection?

Coinlearner

Has far a rocks in package or an empty box; Mailing at the PO there is a weight on mailing sticker. That shgould help "somewhat" in disputes. AND along this line..about 10 months ago, someone at PO ripped opened a package with a 10 oz. silver bar and replaced it with fishing weights that weighed 3 X as much . It took 2 months of denials and back and forth paper work and filing with the postinspectors office but finally received a refund even though it was "delivered". I would not let this "go" even though it cost alot of time and a 1/4 of the price of purchase for the back and forth mailings of stuff.

zeebob

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>How about this. You send a package via USPS Registered mail, fully insured. The buyer says you shipped him a box of staples. He files a dispute, you lose. It IS that simple with a PayPal dispute. End of dispute. Oh wait, I forgot they take the $$ back somewhere in there. >>



WTF does the fact that the recipient took delivery have to do with what the seller put in the package? If you don't use sig conf and buyer says you put in rocks instead of coins then buyer wins? But if you put in rocks and use sig conf then you win? Wuts wrong with that pic? PP needs to have their sorry asses hauled into court. >>




I shipped an item via USPS Priority mail, insured, with electronic signature confirmation. The buyer stated that I did not put the coins in the box. He filed a Significantly not as described dispute, PayPal sided with him. PayPal took $815 out of my account and gave it back to him. Very long story short, the guy was caught in a lie and PayPal could have cared less. He still has my coins and his $815 back. The USPS denied my insurance claim because they proved it was delivered, via his signature, and they said there was not damage to the box (because he got the coins..). I couldn't file charges because he is in another state and it would be nearly impossible to prove in court I suppose. His lying tongue against me.

eBay and PayPal are a great place to scam people from your couch and get away with it. >>



That story would be enough for me to close my Ebay account except I'm not sure what other alternative offers any better protection for the seller. Can't a CC company do the same thing to a seller if the buyer files a claim with the CC company?

grote15

At the very least, you can get as much personal info as possible on the potential scammer and make his or her life a living hell..maybe even pay a visit..

COINB0Y

Walk it in.

commoncents123

Doesn't the Registered Mail sticker number show up on usps.com as who signed for it, where and when (ie doubling as sig. confirmation)?

OnlyBuffalos

Commerce in most forms, and especially electronic commerce, depends on the honesty of both seller and buyer. When mutual honesty fails to occur often enough, the system eventually loses viability. There are signs that this is the situation unfolding with eBay.

tjkillian

So, is there any protection for a seller when the buyer claims the package contained only rocks? Assume the buyer and seller live in different states.

If there is none, what can a seller do to protect themselves, if anything?

Raufus

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>How about this. You send a package via USPS Registered mail, fully insured. The buyer says you shipped him a box of staples. He files a dispute, you lose. It IS that simple with a PayPal dispute. End of dispute. Oh wait, I forgot they take the $$ back somewhere in there. >>



WTF does the fact that the recipient took delivery have to do with what the seller put in the package? If you don't use sig conf and buyer says you put in rocks instead of coins then buyer wins? But if you put in rocks and use sig conf then you win? Wuts wrong with that pic? PP needs to have their sorry asses hauled into court. >>




I shipped an item via USPS Priority mail, insured, with electronic signature confirmation. The buyer stated that I did not put the coins in the box. He filed a Significantly not as described dispute, PayPal sided with him. PayPal took $815 out of my account and gave it back to him. Very long story short, the guy was caught in a lie and PayPal could have cared less. He still has my coins and his $815 back. The USPS denied my insurance claim because they proved it was delivered, via his signature, and they said there was not damage to the box (because he got the coins..). I couldn't file charges because he is in another state and it would be nearly impossible to prove in court I suppose. His lying tongue against me.

eBay and PayPal are a great place to scam people from your couch and get away with it. >>



jessewvu-

That is an incredible story. It really makes me want to stop selling on Ebay entirely.

One question: If the "buyer" was caught in a lie, why did PP not refund your money.

This is the most disturbing Ebay/PP story that I've heard to date.

Thanks.

Raufus

jessewvu's post inspired me to call PayPal and discuss the case with them. I read him jessewvu's post. In short, the message was that a buyer can rip a seller off at will using the "empty box" scam and the seller is totally screwed, no recourse. As jessewvu mentioned, the USPS will not do anything as the item was deilvered, leaving no recourse.

I've sold about $30K in moderns and currency via Ebay/PayPal over the past few months. I asked the rep just what protection I would get against such a scam for all the PayPal fees that I paid. His answer: "nothing". At least he was honest.

I've done well selling and have for the most part enjoyed it and made some good $ doing so. My plan is to sell what I've got left to sell over the next few months, hope that the buyers are honest, and then to stop selling entirely. I just don't understand the anti-seller bias of Ebay and PayPal. I do understand that I'm done.

jessewvu, thanks for bringing this ripoff scam to our attention!

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>So, is there any protection for a seller when the buyer claims the package contained only rocks? Assume the buyer and seller live in different states.

If there is none, what can a seller do to protect themselves, if anything? >>



Basically, you have 2 choices: don't sell there or you demand money orders.

BobSav

It really doesn't matter how you mail anything. If the Buyer is out to screw you, you lose no matter what.
Send the package by armed courier., with fingerprint ID required.
Buyer get 1000 dollars worth of your coins calls paypal and files dispute that you sent him 25 dollars worth of coins.

Guess what ? your out 1000 dollars plus the cost of the armed delivery

Bob

jgrinz

<< <i>I've done well selling and have for the most part enjoyed it and made some good $ doing so. My plan is to sell what I've got left to sell over the next few months, hope that the buyers are honest, and then to stop selling entirely. I just don't understand the anti-seller bias of Ebay and PayPal. I do understand that I'm done. >>



This is not a new senario and they have lost a lot of GOOD customers over this
My Monthly bill last year was 4-500 dollars
Monthy bill this year $24 dollars for Jan and Feb
Will they learn - Eventually or until the Federal Government bails them out too

OPA

<< <i>It really doesn't matter how you mail anything. If the Buyer is out to screw you, you lose no matter what.
Send the package by armed courier., with fingerprint ID required.
Buyer get 1000 dollars worth of your coins calls paypal and files dispute that you sent him 25 dollars worth of coins.

Guess what ? your out 1000 dollars plus the cost of the armed delivery

Bob >>



Guess again ... that can happen with any c.c. transaction regardless who sold or where it occured .... welcome to the real world ... It's normally referred to as a billing error dispute.

BAJJERFAN

Is COD the only guaranteed way?

coinpictures

<< <i>Basically, you have 2 choices: don't sell there or you demand money orders. >>



Actually only the former. The latter will get your account closed and your ass booted. Paypal or merchant credit card. Period. No checks. No money orders. No cash. No barter. No bearer bonds. No first-born children (eBay gets those).

DRUNNER

I have eternal respect for those of you who can make this system work. For the reasons jesse described, I can't understand why anyone would sell on ebay at all, but obviously many do, and do quite well. Unless you were doing spectacularly on ebay, I would presume one good scam of $1000 would wipe out quite a bit of profit from the average hacker out there. As the economy tanks and the relative ease of this scam becomes more apparent, an ebay change would seem to be in order.

You can sig confirm, register, etc. but those people are missing the point. The point is the comment on the 'box of staples', and no one out there has ANY recourse against that other than the basic honesty of man, and that is degrading in ebay.

I also wonder how widespread this problem might actually be. No one wants to admit to being scammed . . . and stats seem to indicate only 1 out of 10 or so ever report being scammed. Living in Utah, the Multi-Level-Marketing / roofing / driveway / home repair scam capital of the known world, I can attest to a plethora of those who never 'report' due to embarrassment.

I wonder how many out there who profess to have spotless records in selling have actually accrued a bruise or two (or more) along the way?

Good luck to the sellers. I'll buy my coins sight seen at a show under a 5-10x loupe and a good incandescent bulb.

Drunner

coinpictures

This is just my opinion, but I think those people that deal in bullion and/or large-amount transactions (>$1000) on a regular basis are at far greater risk. Bullion is something that can be resold/fenced anonymously with relative ease, and in my opinion thus attracts scammers at a higher rate. Since that's a fairly large sample size here, we hear a lot more horror stories of people being wiped out.

(That's not to excuse the problem, but to give a slightly different spin on it).

The vast majority of my sales are under $500, and tend to be classic or world material, which probably has a lower "ScamFactor(TM)".

I would be curious as to what safeguards the true large-scale bullion sellers on eBay do to ward against this problem. Business insurance policy to cover losses? Just write it off as a loss? Other?

Russ

Relative to other categories on eBay, coins is a nearly scam-free paradise. I've run close to 10,000 auctions and have had a grand total of two fraudulent chargeback attempts, both of which I won.

Try selling in games or electronics if you want to experience real scamming.

Russ, NCNE

YaHa

The best way is to deliver it yourself. Knock on the door and make the buyer sign with a 38cal in their face. Have your laptop and make them leave you positive feedback with the following.

Nice seller, on hands delivery and I Joe Doe received the coin in perfect condition as advertised and will not seek a refund. Also this closes our ebay transaction.

Then tell your buyer it was nice doing business with ya.

jakeblue

I mostly buy, but sell some on the bay. These stories definitely lend one to pause.

Teletrade or DLRC auctions and similiar smaller auction houses could be the best bet for higher value coins and currency.

They do all the shipping and handle the returns. But...

Has anyone ever had a chargeback problem with them after the sale was concluded?

08HALA20

<< <i>The best way is to deliver it yourself. Knock on the door and make the buyer sign with a 38cal in their face. Have your laptop and make them leave you positive feedback with the following.

Nice seller, on hands delivery and I Joe Doe received the coin in perfect condition as advertised and will not seek a refund. Also this closes our ebay transaction.

Then tell your buyer it was nice doing business with ya. >>




Didn't someone say that they had a chargeback AFTER receiving positive feedback?

Joe

09sVDB

Sig confirmation under $250. Otherwise registered insured.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>The best way is to deliver it yourself. >>

If you want to win a PayPal dispute, no- it's not.

From PayPal's user agreement:

11.8 What are examples of items/transactions that are not eligible for seller protection?

Items that you deliver in person.

nicknut12

I had a registered package claimed as non-received,
By a paypal payer.

It was even a PCGS slab and the buyer went ahead
and registered the PCGS # on the PCGS website.

And he still claimed non-receipt of the registered package.

Then there was a 3 month investigation and a
frozen paypal account, before the guy fessed up
and paid up.

I think if he hadn't of registered the PCGS # on
the website he may have tried to get away with it,
instead of just an xtra 3 month delay in payment.

It took the P.O. 3 months to even start the investigation.

Ever since then, I use ebay to sell only low value items.
Period. Works well for me. Less risk, less headache.

Regards, Steve K.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>

<< <i>The best way is to deliver it yourself. >>

If you want to win a PayPal dispute, no- it's not.

From PayPal's user agreement:

11.8 What are examples of items/transactions that are not eligible for seller protection?

Items that you deliver in person. >>



Well I don't think you'd be a takin PayPal for an in person delivery.

mrpotatoheadd

<< <i>Well I don't think you'd be a takin PP on an in person delivery. >>

From the looks of things, there are folks who sell cars through eBay who do.

BAJJERFAN

<< <i>

<< <i>Well I don't think you'd be a takin PP on an in person delivery. >>

From the looks of things, there are folks who sell cars through eBay who do. >>



DUMASSES!!!

Raufus

<< <i>Relative to other categories on eBay, coins is a nearly scam-free paradise. I've run close to 10,000 auctions and have had a grand total of two fraudulent chargeback attempts, both of which I won.

Try selling in games or electronics if you want to experience real scamming.

Russ, NCNE >>



Russ-

How would you handle a situations such as that described in which you send the buyer coins and the buyer claims it was an empty box and does a chargeback?

Thanks.