Maybe this research has already been done by the stats guys but I would like to see what a normal HOFers career looked like over the course of his entire career. I am assuming you could predict based on all the past players at what point normal degredation of skills take place and when prime playing years are over and you start to see drop off in certain key stats. To me finding people who took roids or HGH are the ones who avoided this predictable drop off in play to an extent that it is a statistical anomally.
Two players I can think of that did this were Bonds and Nolan Ryan. Now Nolan did keep getting hurt and his numbers never jumped they just stayed consistent so maybe he isnt a good case but he played at a high level (K rate for one thing) for longer than most peers.
Bonds as stated just had silly numbers in his last 7 years compared to his first 14. It's like 2 different players.
Currently completing the following registry sets: Cardinal HOF's, 1961 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1972 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, 1980 Pittsburgh Pirates Team, Bill Mazeroski Master & Basic Sets, Roberto Clemente Master & Basic Sets, Willie Stargell Master & Basic Sets and Terry Bradshaw Basic Set
Anybody could have took them no matter what the player says. For me, the subject is not a big deal. The system failed the game & the whole era of players are pooled together for me. Some will get caught and others will not. History will show that it was just part of the game for that period of time & there will be something new later on.
<< <i>Don Mattingly. And if there is any way he can be proven clean he should have a red carpet into the Hall of Fame with all the crap that's gone on.
Derek Jeter. I would be shocked if he ever did steroids but anything in this era would not surprise me anymore. >>
Note to Fandango and all others who still believe a player's physical appearance can "hint" towards his use/non-use of steroids: many noteable medical steroid experts are all saying the same thing about Arod's use. Arod's test showed he tested positive for two steroids. One being testerone and the other (Primobolan) being a very "sophisticated" steroid that is much more expensive than the typical steroid and isn't even allowed in this country. Doctors point out that it is well known within the steroid community that "alternating" the use of these two steroids at very specific time frames will give the user THE MOST ADDED STRENGTH WHILE GAINING THE (LEAST) AMOUNT OF MUSCLE MASS. This alternating use is commonly referred to as "cycling" within the steroid community. Experts are saying the A'Roid knew exactly what he was taking; exactly when to take it and exactly how to administer it. Just like everything else steroids too are evolving and A-Roid and other MLB players are taking specifically engineered roids that LEAST alter their physical appearance while at the same time giving them the biggest bang for the buck. Bottom line: players such as Pujols, who haven't "blown" up like Bonds or Sosa did, can still reap large gains in strength with minimal superficial changes in appearance. As Josey Wales said: "Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining" ... I know A-Roid is pissing down all our backs but I for one am educated enough to know it's not raining.....
"You tell 'em I'm coming...and hell's coming with me"--Wyatt Earp
first, pujols has never hit 50 hr's.....he is the most consistent player ever....he never has had a spike in his stats/abilities since he was 12 years old...
do steroids help your contact rate? no. Pujols has the best contact rate (according to Baseball Prospectus)
do steroids help you judgement of the strike zone? No. Pujols has the best strike zone judgement (known as batting eye)
...a steroid user is marked by an increase in stats from one season to the next ...the opposite of what Pujols is done...
SO, you dont have to look at Pujols to know he hasnt juiced, just look at the numbers.......
<< <i>first, pujols has never hit 50 hr's.....he is the most consistent player ever....he never has had a spike in his stats/abilities since he was 12 years old...
do steroids help your contact rate? no. Pujols has the best contact rate (according to Baseball Prospectus)
do steroids help you judgement of the strike zone? No. Pujols has the best strike zone judgement (known as batting eye)
...a steroid user is marked by an increase in stats from one season to the next ...the opposite of what Pujols is done...
SO, you dont have to look at Pujols to know he hasnt juiced, just look at the numbers....... >>
Fandango, he went from being a NON prospect to one of the best hitters on the planet. Hmmmm. That is quite a big spike in my book. THis would suggest use BEFORE he made it to MLB, hence no MLB statistical spike. His spike was being a nobody, and all of a sudden becoming a somebody after altering his body(with much help of course).
Of course, you have the right to believe he did that with just eating fruits and vegetables, jogging, and lifting weights the old fashioned way. Those are the exact same thoughts people had about Bonds too. LOL!
Here we go again with non-medical people making definitive statements like the use of steroids does not make a hitter a better "contact" hitter. At the congressional hearings in which Canseco, Palmeiro, Sosa and company testified there was also testimony given by one of the country's leading experts in steroids. He stated that steroid use "does in fact" make the users eyesight more acute. This was one of the most dynamic statements issued by anyone at those hearings yet few people are talking about it. The key to hitting is hand and eye coordination. Therefore ANY improvement in a hitters vision is a tremendous asset towards improving his offensive stats. So based on the combined testimony of leading experts it is fair to say that A-roid had an unfair advantage in both strength and vision. Can you imagine what Ted Williams would have accomplished had he artifically increased his strength and eyesight? Or Mantle, Mays, Aaron?
"You tell 'em I'm coming...and hell's coming with me"--Wyatt Earp
Nobody wants to hear reality. As you stated, steroids do help with your vision, and your reaction time. Those are crucial elements.
A guy like Pujols went from being a non prospect, and in two years he was one of the best hitters in the world. During this time, his body was overhauled. Hmmmm.
Mike Piazza, same thing. He was drafted as a favor. Then he is hitting opposite field home runs in the bigs with just a flick of the hands.
I do have to say that steroids are only a portion of the of the reason for the offensive explosion from the mid 90's to now.
I also have to say that I don't know how anybody can say Griffey with such certainty, or anybody from this era. Everyone said that about Arod a few years ago too, and how happy they were that a clean player would break Bonds's all time HR record. How foolish do they look now...
....about as foolish as the Pujols fans do, I guess.
Hoopster, thanks very much for your supporting comments. You can tell by my responses that I am very passionate about the game of baseball. And as a result of this passion I have become overwhelmingly frustrated from reading all these (uneducated) comments from people defending particular players. Bottom line is that the evolution of pharmaceutical science has far outpaced sports. Unscrupulous labs, doctors & trainers from Canada to Latin America are getting ever better at coming up with drugs that will "fool" the tests. Programs and techniques for administering these drugs are becoming increasingly more sophisticated. And drugs are being more refined with the goal of giving a player added strength with little visible change to his body--thus defraying suspicion. And yes these MLB hitters know that steroids improve your eyesight.
It is also said in psychology that all human beings are naturally greedy to varying degrees. And most of us assuredly would love to receive all the money, fame and reverence given to professional athletes. So when we combine basic "human nature" with the advances in medical science it was only inevitable that MLB, (absent of substantial deterrents & testing) would become infested with this current PED culture.
For these reasons I can't be confident that any players such as Griffey, Maddux or Pujols are free from PED's. All three are highly driven individuals and where they each draw the line on PED use is known only to themselves. Let us remember even bible toting Andy Pettite fell victim to temptation and crossed that line!!!
"You tell 'em I'm coming...and hell's coming with me"--Wyatt Earp
I think that every time I hear somebody on the radio(or on these boards) say, "well he tested clean," or "He doesn't have one of those cartoon bodies," so therefore he is clean...they should read your post!
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
I'm holding out hope that Griffey Jr. is clean. If so he has to be the choice , no question. However, I am highly skeptical of any player from the late eighties on. NO one can be trusted.
from my perspective all you really have to do is look at the big jump in Home run leader boards from the early 90's and see the explosion of power among certain players.
"The answer was in the Patriots eyes. Gone were the swagger and c0ck sure smirks, replaced by downcast eyes and heads in hands. For his poise and leadership Eli Manning was named the game's MVP. The 2007 Giants were never perfect nor meant to be. They were fighters, scrappers....now they could be called something else, World Champions."
Comments
<< <i>Rollins
Worth
Utley
Howard
Victorino
Hamels
Myers
***Manual**** >>
I like how you put him in there, that was good
Stown, like SGT. Hulka, you seem to have a helluva sense of humor
I misread you before. You are all right.
Two players I can think of that did this were Bonds and Nolan Ryan. Now Nolan did keep getting hurt and his numbers never jumped they just stayed consistent so maybe he isnt a good case but he played at a high level (K rate for one thing) for longer than most peers.
Bonds as stated just had silly numbers in his last 7 years compared to his first 14. It's like 2 different players.
Anybody could have took them no matter what the player says. For me, the subject is not a big deal. The system failed the game & the whole era of players are pooled together for me. Some will get caught and others will not. History will show that it was just part of the game for that period of time & there will be something new later on.
Erik
<< <i>Don Mattingly. And if there is any way he can be proven clean he should have a red carpet into the Hall of Fame with all the crap that's gone on.
Derek Jeter. I would be shocked if he ever did steroids but anything in this era would not surprise me anymore. >>
there are players outside of NY, you know.
I'd say:
Griffey
HOF SIGNED FOOTBALL RCS
do steroids help your contact rate? no. Pujols has the best contact rate (according to Baseball Prospectus)
do steroids help you judgement of the strike zone? No. Pujols has the best strike zone judgement (known as batting eye)
...a steroid user is marked by an increase in stats from one season to the next ...the opposite of what Pujols is done...
SO, you dont have to look at Pujols to know he hasnt juiced, just look at the numbers.......
<< <i>first, pujols has never hit 50 hr's.....he is the most consistent player ever....he never has had a spike in his stats/abilities since he was 12 years old...
do steroids help your contact rate? no. Pujols has the best contact rate (according to Baseball Prospectus)
do steroids help you judgement of the strike zone? No. Pujols has the best strike zone judgement (known as batting eye)
...a steroid user is marked by an increase in stats from one season to the next ...the opposite of what Pujols is done...
SO, you dont have to look at Pujols to know he hasnt juiced, just look at the numbers....... >>
Fandango, he went from being a NON prospect to one of the best hitters on the planet. Hmmmm. That is quite a big spike in my book. THis would suggest use BEFORE he made it to MLB, hence no MLB statistical spike. His spike was being a nobody, and all of a sudden becoming a somebody after altering his body(with much help of course).
Of course, you have the right to believe he did that with just eating fruits and vegetables, jogging, and lifting weights the old fashioned way. Those are the exact same thoughts people had about Bonds too. LOL!
/s/ JackWESQ
Nobody wants to hear reality. As you stated, steroids do help with your vision, and your reaction time. Those are crucial elements.
A guy like Pujols went from being a non prospect, and in two years he was one of the best hitters in the world. During this time, his body was overhauled. Hmmmm.
Mike Piazza, same thing. He was drafted as a favor. Then he is hitting opposite field home runs in the bigs with just a flick of the hands.
I do have to say that steroids are only a portion of the of the reason for the offensive explosion from the mid 90's to now.
I also have to say that I don't know how anybody can say Griffey with such certainty, or anybody from this era. Everyone said that about Arod a few years ago too, and how happy they were that a clean player would break Bonds's all time HR record. How foolish do they look now...
....about as foolish as the Pujols fans do, I guess.
It is also said in psychology that all human beings are naturally greedy to varying degrees. And most of us assuredly would love to receive all the money, fame and reverence given to professional athletes. So when we combine basic "human nature" with the advances in medical science it was only inevitable that MLB, (absent of substantial deterrents & testing) would become infested with this current PED culture.
For these reasons I can't be confident that any players such as Griffey, Maddux or Pujols are free from PED's. All three are highly driven individuals and where they each draw the line on PED use is known only to themselves. Let us remember even bible toting Andy Pettite fell victim to temptation and crossed that line!!!
Very well put.
I think that every time I hear somebody on the radio(or on these boards) say, "well he tested clean," or "He doesn't have one of those cartoon bodies," so therefore he is clean...they should read your post!
/s/ JackWESQ
Ripken
Maddux
Gwynn
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
"The answer was in the Patriots eyes. Gone were the swagger and c0ck sure smirks, replaced by downcast eyes and heads in hands. For his poise and leadership Eli Manning was named the game's MVP. The 2007 Giants were never perfect nor meant to be. They were fighters, scrappers....now they could be called something else, World Champions."