1909 VDB ANACS PR63RB in Heritage Baltimore auction
BWRC
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Brian Wagner Rare Coins, Specializing in PCGS graded, Shield, Liberty and Buffalo Nickels varieties.
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how do you say undergraded?
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
BUT
You have to wonder how many times it DIDN'T cross at PCGS (and why
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
My Ebay
1934-1958 RB Lincoln Short Set
8 PR63RB
20 PR64RB
24 PR65RB
7 PR66RB
All the wise writers write of dipped and treated mattes out there.....is this ONE?
My Ebay
1934-1958 RB Lincoln Short Set
-Paul
WS
I wouldn't want to comment about originality based on images. I'd really like to see the coin in hand. Nonetheless, anytime I think of the word "pale" in describing a Lincoln cent, I worry about originality. ANACS is pretty good about getting it right, so the coin probably looks fine in hand.
Just a thought,
Jack
What is curious is how it has earned PF63RB. thats not a very nice grade for a matte, usually meaning a dull coin, difficult to see well in hand. There can be splotches and stains, or toning may be really heavy.
but this coin looks (at least in the present photo) to in some ways look like a 66RD but I dont trust these photos at all anymore, Heritage will reimage that, am I correct, at least thats the way I read the present description.
I suppose with a slab picture ANACS coins can be dated as to when 'made' from the cert number?
<< <i>Hmmmm - wonder who consigned it.
OK, please tell us about it. I have a feeling about you.
- Bob -
MPL's - Lincolns of Color
Central Valley Roosevelts
Guys,
I'll go look at it in person as soon as Heritage has it available for lot viewing (or perhaps sooner) and report back.
<< <i>Id want this in a genuine holder about as much as if I married Paris Hilton and found her welded into a chastity belt.
>>
I disagree Ambro51. Not only would I NOT be attracted to Paris Hilton with or without a chastity belt, I would be very happy to own a genuine example of this coin in a PCGS holder if I didn't already own one. There are currently "only" 170 of this coin that have been slabbed by PCGS, NGC and ANACS since 1986. Of that number probably 30 or 40 have been crossed, or cracked out. So "maybe" 100 to 140 exist today in major slabs. Maybe another 50 or 60 are "out there" in RAW condition, held by owners who can't get them certified. (ie) We may see some show up in the future in PCGS genuine holders, but I bet, not many. Bottom Line: This is a VERY popular MPL that is NOT available from your friendly dealer. When one comes onto the market, IN ANY CONDITION, it does have significant value. To those who have sufficient funds to quibble about condition, then they WILL demand the best they can afford. But to those who have limited funds and want a GENUINE example of this rare MPL for their collection, I believe they would go for it. The ANACS coin in the upcoming auction might not be the true test of the value to be placed on genuine coins of this variety that don't grade because THIS example is already graded by ANACS. What would be very interesting would be if the winning bidder sends it to PCGS and it doesn't cross and he then accepts the genuine PCGS holder. My point is that it will still have significant value to MPL collectors. What does everyone think about that?
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Unless the apparent slight rainbow effect (or as Heritage calls it "faint accent of light iridescent gold, lime-green, and violet colors") is an old "cleaning remnant/evidence" (?????) notwithstanding?
<< <i>
<< <i>Id want this in a genuine holder about as much as if I married Paris Hilton and found her welded into a chastity belt.
>>
I disagree Ambro51. Not only would I NOT be attracted to Paris Hilton with or without a chastity belt, I would be very happy to own a genuine example of this coin in a PCGS holder if I didn't already own one.
Steve
I don't think Ambro meant to imply that he would be attracted to or desirous of becoming the spouse of Paris Hilton. Given the opportunity to add "Paris in a Chastity Belt" to my personal collection though, I would jump at the chance. I'll bet she would only "Genuine" as well, but think of the service to mankind, as well as the boundless opportunities at local fairs.
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
But, anyway on the coin.....My matte registry set would love it to come and join the party, but in a Gennie holder? with one point? Just because certain graders may feel it was cleaned/worked on /altered and not gradeable...is a risk Im not ready to take.
Lots of uncertainty.
My next big tuna copper will be either a vdb matte or a confederate cent restrike. Im just not sure which to seek.....Im in no hurry~~~
(oh come on NOT attracted to Paris you guys are sick. Just imagine saying "Honey can I have my fifty thousand allowance for coins a day early this week?")
Steve, you're scaring me. I didn't know you swung THAT way (not that there's anything wrong with that).
Nah, the rest of you guys wouldn't want any of THIS either (chastity belt or not). Right?
This one is too spicy for PCGS (thus no live link): http://topnews.in/light/files/paris_hilton22.jpg
Empty Nest Collection
Matt’s Mattes
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
Okay, for starters, I very respectfully disagree with anyone who believes this coin will bring less than 20K. Look at the coin... Let's say, arguendo, that the coin looks decent in-hand ... I can tell you without a doubt that I would pay 35K+ With any level of confidence that the coin is not seriously worked, who wouldn't pay '64 money? From the photo, the coin does not look crazy to me. Just a little haziness to it, perhaps. A little dirt, but the surfaces look solid. IMO, with just a cleaning, the coin might even go '65RB. It looks fine to me. Nice color. Good strike. We've seen other coins without half the pizazz go for 30K+ So are we really so certain the VDB market is dead based on the sale of two weaker coins in a recent market?
Brian - what's your opinion?
Duane,
As you know I can't give a call on a coin based on the photo's alone but I can say from what I see the coin looks like it has some potential to be nice for the grade because the images tell me the following.
#1 The coin appears to be carbon free which is a big plus.
#2 I don't see any noticable/distracting contact marks on the coin.
A in hand inspection will be necessary to determine if the VDB diagnostics are present on this coin. Also, if I believe PCGS would grade this coin as original color because if I were to buy it I would crack the coin out and send it to them for grading so basically I am buying this coin in a "flip". Also, the in hand inspection under a halogen light will tell me if any hairlines are present on the surface of the coin that would cause the coin to not grade up to my expectations. Also, overall "EYE APPEAL" can be judged at this time only. I am looking forward to viewing this coin at Baltimore prior to auction.
Brian
Sorry, I did forget that unlike me, the collector, a dealer has to maintain a professional position on the coin.
But as you run us through your thinking from an objective professional analysis, I guess the group is pretty much in agreement: seeing the coin in-hand is the prerequisite to any real evaluation as to authenticity or grade. As you point out, one cannot evaluate the eye appeal or presence of hair lines or diagnostics from a photo. But if the coin looks okay, meaning that your #1&2 points are met in-hand, as well as the color looking original, and one believes that PCGS would accept the coin, I suppose one cannot pass on the coin for PR63 money, or maybe more as a collector, or even as a flip. Obviously, if the coin looks terrible in-hand, all bets are off.
But from just the photos, the coin seems like a really great coin to me, based on what's been coming to market. I can't wait to see it in-hand.
Although Paris still grades higher from the photos
WS
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
It's true, and MHO, as well. This sale can re-establish perceptions about quality and price. I think your Question #1 is really the crux, as the other two flow from that question. If the coin is adjudged to be a quality coin, and perhaps even cross-able at PR63-65 (and I would not take PR65 off the table, looking at others that we now know exist), than we may see a price paid that is commensurate with the perceived (and hoped for) cross grade. Clearly, most serious collectors who really need a VDB to finish or even further a collection may step up, even if the value has diminished slightly due to larger economic forces, because a) the opportunities are relatively few, and b) a quality and truly scarce or rare coin will hold its value, as we all seem to accept. So if someone has any question as to where to put their money now; do they drop it in the stock market, including stock-based retirement account, or do they put it in a long term asset that is proven, especially as of late, when it has received its first public awakening? Clearly, the average person is going to take at least CONSIDER the VDB as an asset vehicle. I've seen more money staying static because people are not sure where to actually park the money, and not always because the money does not exist. So this coin may represent an opportunity on many levels.
So if the coin is a genuine quality coin, I think the bidding will be spirited.
Duane
Of course in hand it may be the undergraded coin of the century and bring 50k on sale day. I may own it at 10k, ponder a few minutes at 12k and pass at 15k
Heck i still want a pf60. The more carbon the better, i do not want to get spoiled and expect great coins on what i am willing to pay.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>Looks like it has definitely been cleaned to me. Light hairlines and a thin but funky haze. About half way between the lightest and darkest Heritage pics
It looked to ne that it had been recolored.. >>
It looked to ne that it had been recolored.. >>
Yeah, I guess these really are the questions. One cannot know any of this until a good in-hand look is made. And in truth, I think that I'd want the person with the most expertise making that call for me. I would not be so sure that the chances of crossing are slim if the coin looks good in-hand.
Light hairlines do not mean a cleaning, for certain. The coin could have been in a slide holder at one time. And the "haze" described is seen on many non-cleaned MPLs that have been slabbed for any period of time, as we all know. That can just be normal oxidation, and can be easily removed with a simple dip. Recoloring is another call for the best eye one can find. Based on just the photo, the coin toning doesn't look all that abnormal to me. But a photo can be manipulated.
In terms of the ANACS holder, my question back is "how long has it been in that holder?" Times and standards change, and where maybe 5 years ago someone may have been willing to break out a VDB (because the prices were not as high), but today, that same person may be reluctant, therefore they do no want to risk breaking it out. That is understandable, because the potential loss today is much greater. But I would say that if someone could buy a genuine VDB for 10K, as you mention, Steve, regardless of the holder, they would be wise to do so (providing they are not competing in the PCGS registry).
In the end, we will know what people think of the coin by the numbers that we see going up, and not by what anyone says on this board!!
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
Makes my point on the coin being in the holder for a while. The photo sure looks different, but IMHO, does not actually show anything. And based on the date, if the coin is AT and/or hairlined, it had those same qualities 7 years ago! So much for the coin being recently 'worked' theory.
My theory is that someone bought the coin in 2002 for $4200, and can now 5 - 10X their money. Why take the chance with a non-cross?
This pic (above) looks way closer than either of the two new pics (one set too light/bright & one way too dark). Note the dullness/washed out/cleaned appearance - especially the reverse. I would say a notch or two less red/saturation and you'd be spot on.
Also note though that in this pic the Green ANACS slab label background is washed out and in the "too dark" pic at the bottom it is still visible. I know I don't have to tell you guys what that means (from a photoshop perspective).
The image immediately below is TOO Bright/Light (photoshop magic - and wishful thinking - for sure!!!):
The image immediately below is TOO Dark (just a p*ss poor photo plain & simple. Not even ANACS would refrain from using the dreaded BN designation if it really looked like that)
- BUT -
DEFINITELY the same holder:
Note the little (2mm?) SW to NE scratch/line on the reverse on the ANACS label near the top of it and most of the way to the left side of it.
This leaves little (for all practical purposes NONE) possibility of it having been cracked out, worked on, and reholdered in the same ANACS holder with the same cert number.
I still vote cleaned and it will NEVER be in a PCGS non-gen holder.
>>> Hey PCGS, why can't you just tell us how many times it DIDN'T cross? Oh, that's right, that would be TOO transparent and beneficial to the consumer - RIGHT?!?!?!?!?
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>Nice find! The cert # is the same, so I assume it is the same coin.
Makes my point on the coin being in the holder for a while. The photo sure looks different, but IMHO, does not actually show anything. And based on the date, if the coin is AT and/or hairlined, it had those same qualities 7 years ago! So much for the coin being recently 'worked' theory.
My theory is that someone bought the coin in 2002 for $4200, and can now 5 - 10X their money. Why take the chance with a non-cross? >>
I agree that it definitely hasn't been messed with in the past 7 years. But that said, not sure what "chance" is taken in a crossover attempt... If it doesn't cross, so what, you'll still get your 5-10x in the current holder... but if it does cross, both you and Heritage will increase the total take without a doubt. Under no circumstance can I imagine anything other than that this coin has already failed to cross at least once since 2002 (either by the owner or Heritage).
Will be a fun auction to watch. Too bad the photos are so inconsistent, really would have to see it in hand to bid properly.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448