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Wow the industry has changed...and yet it hasn't
flying1856
Posts: 16
So I'm just reentering the hobby after a 23 year absence (at least that was the date on the last red book I had 
) and I'm amazed at the state its in now.
What got me back in? Laugh if you want but it was the Ultra High Relief coin. It was one of two coins I had always dreamed of owning when I was a kid but never had the funds. Now even though its a replica bullion coin, I finally fulfill that dream with a legitimately mint released coin. So while this coin might inspire crazy flippers and hoarders, it did serve to reawaken some dormant collectors.
Now that I am reentering the hobby I see stories of Chinese counterfeits and even counterfeits of the graded holders that chased me out of the industry many years ago. When I was a kid as soon as a coin was slabbed, the coin was no longer in my price range as opposed to the the coins that were still open to subjective dealer pricing. Now everyone says to only collect slabbed coins to be safe but even that is not safe. I see dealers worried about prices falling but still holding out for full book value for their coins.
Now that there are very few dealers in the area I live in I found myself to going to my first coin show ever. I had always spent time going to small local dealers and waiting for their stock to slowly rotate. It was lots of fun being in a place where there were several examples of dates I wanted to buy instead of having one choice priced out of my range.
I was excited and having fun buying up some of the small cent collection I was never able to find as a kid and then the old familiar past seemed to come back. That one evil dealer who tried to pressure you into buying an out of demand coin for exorbitant prices. The dealer who just didn't "feel right" and whose coins were all slabbed at MS+++ but had clearly visible fingerprints and cases that looked off. The dealer who had coins at such a great price that shortly after I bought 2, I went back to grab more and found another dealer cleaning him out. And the honest dealer that reminded me of the ones I used to visit long ago who never had the best coins but were extremely helpful.
I guess where I'm at now is now that I have gotten all the semi-keys and commons out of the way, what is the best way to approach finishing off my set? It seems there is a lot of fear in the industry. I don't trust ebay but with no dealers around I'm forced to resort to buying things online. Where does one turn for reputable dealers these days? It seems hard to build a working relationship with dealers now with coins sight unseen. Even the pictures online seem to vary based on the angle.
So any tips for an new (old) collector?
) and I'm amazed at the state its in now. What got me back in? Laugh if you want but it was the Ultra High Relief coin. It was one of two coins I had always dreamed of owning when I was a kid but never had the funds. Now even though its a replica bullion coin, I finally fulfill that dream with a legitimately mint released coin. So while this coin might inspire crazy flippers and hoarders, it did serve to reawaken some dormant collectors.
Now that I am reentering the hobby I see stories of Chinese counterfeits and even counterfeits of the graded holders that chased me out of the industry many years ago. When I was a kid as soon as a coin was slabbed, the coin was no longer in my price range as opposed to the the coins that were still open to subjective dealer pricing. Now everyone says to only collect slabbed coins to be safe but even that is not safe. I see dealers worried about prices falling but still holding out for full book value for their coins.
Now that there are very few dealers in the area I live in I found myself to going to my first coin show ever. I had always spent time going to small local dealers and waiting for their stock to slowly rotate. It was lots of fun being in a place where there were several examples of dates I wanted to buy instead of having one choice priced out of my range.
I was excited and having fun buying up some of the small cent collection I was never able to find as a kid and then the old familiar past seemed to come back. That one evil dealer who tried to pressure you into buying an out of demand coin for exorbitant prices. The dealer who just didn't "feel right" and whose coins were all slabbed at MS+++ but had clearly visible fingerprints and cases that looked off. The dealer who had coins at such a great price that shortly after I bought 2, I went back to grab more and found another dealer cleaning him out. And the honest dealer that reminded me of the ones I used to visit long ago who never had the best coins but were extremely helpful.
I guess where I'm at now is now that I have gotten all the semi-keys and commons out of the way, what is the best way to approach finishing off my set? It seems there is a lot of fear in the industry. I don't trust ebay but with no dealers around I'm forced to resort to buying things online. Where does one turn for reputable dealers these days? It seems hard to build a working relationship with dealers now with coins sight unseen. Even the pictures online seem to vary based on the angle.
So any tips for an new (old) collector?
0
Comments
You will find lots of good advice here.
Ebay isn't as bad as some try to make it sound, as long as you know what you are doing and buy from someone who offers a return policy with good feedback.
I would stick with PCGS slabbed if you are looking for Key dates though, but that's JMO. To me, they seem to grade tougher on small cents than anyone else.
Things have changed, but the more they stay the same.
- Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106-43 BC
<< <i>I guess where I'm at now is now that I have gotten all the semi-keys and commons out of the way, what is the best way to approach finishing off my set? It seems there is a lot of fear in the industry. I don't trust ebay but with no dealers around I'm forced to resort to buying things online. Where does one turn for reputable dealers these days? It seems hard to build a working relationship with dealers now with coins sight unseen. Even the pictures online seem to vary based on the angle.
So any tips for an new (old) collector? >>
Get a second job and maybe a third.
Depends on what condition you have to have.
JT
I collect all 20th century series except gold including those series that ended there.
I would stick with PCGS slabbed if you are looking for Key dates... I was going to say the same thing. Key dates, such as the 1909-S VDB, 1916-D Mercury Dime, etc. I would suggest buying them in either PCGS ro NGC. Too many counterfeits out there on the keys.
Usually a little common sense goes a long way.
When buying expensive raw coins always ask yourself why the seller wouldn't get it slabbed.
There is a premium for this but well worth it and it saves from taking a chance buying something online.
If you hang around here enough you will know the dealers to trust and contact.
Hoard the keys.
Couple of quick questions:
At what point is a coin considered to be too valuable to not be slabbed? $100, $200, $500, $1000?
As to getting a second or third job...yes I see what you are talking about. I have several coins that "if I had just bought that back then..."
For the commons I am content with around VF but for the key dates I'm thinking I should go for the best looking coin I can afford. I've always bought on look appeal and hope that can continue to apply to key dates as well.
I need to find more shows I think, I liked the selection and the ability to walk away know that if the deal was not quite good enough there would probably be one around the corner.
This place seems like a great place to get started again.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>
At what point is a coin considered to be too valuable to not be slabbed? $100, $200, $500, $1000? >>
It depends on the coin and how familiar you are with the series and it's grading.
If there's a huge spread between grades you want to avoid paying for a coin in
the higher grade even if it appears solid for the grade even if you're familiar with
the series. You have to figure it simply didn't grade for some reason.
When grade isn't an issue at all like with a nice solid original XF bust coin or a choice
unc '50-E East German 10p then it might be safe to spend much more for raw coins.
But where counterfeiting and tooling is more prevalent such as gold than you lower
the threshhold.
If you don't trust your eye then just about any coin over fifty or a hundred dollars
might be better bought slabbed. A lot really depends on how well you know the
coins and this does apply even when you buy them slabbed. There is a grade gaur-
antee but this won't protect you from losing money on lots of unwise purchases.
DO NOT get sucked in by the people who are blowing the chinese counterfeit thing out of proportion. In reality, the true size of the problem isn't very large. Almost no legitimate coin dealers have any of the chinese counterfeit material, and as long as you buy coins on ebay from sellers with good feedback, you should be fine.
Recipient of the coveted "You Suck" award, April 2009 for cherrypicking a 1833 CBHD LM-5, and April 2022 for a 1835 LM-12, and again in Aug 2012 for picking off a 1952 FS-902.
While I am personally not interested in the UHR coins, I'm happy to hear they are attracting people to the hobby.
I also collected as a kid and came back to the hobby after many years. But my experience was different than yours. I left the hobby before PCGS or NGC were founded. Certification via photo grading and authentication was available from ANACS, but it hadn't really caught on and was not widely used...at least in my limited world. This left a young collector like me practically defenseless against any dishonest dealers or honest dealers who just didn't know how to grade...I often found that I disagreed with the grade a dealer had assigned to a coin in his case. I certainly could have been wrong about the grade as well, but it was just me against him. Third party graders such as PCGS and NGC leveled the playing field quite a bit between dealers and collectors and provided at least some degree of objectivity. TPGs aren't perfect but, even with the increasing problem of counterfeit slabs, I think TPGs have improved the hobby a great deal.
As for that one evil dealer who tried to pressure you, or the dealer who just didn't "feel right"....just walk away. One of the great things about the Internet is that it provides the average collector with a lot more choices than we had before. And smart dealers know this.
I don't know how you've built your collection so far...but if I were you, I would be patient and very picky with the remaining coins. I would buy the keys only if they are slabbed by PCGS or NGC. There are many good dealers out there and some of them actively participate on this message board. And there are collectors here who would be happy to recommend a dealer or two. I'd suggest you try a few dealers, buy one or two inexpensive coins, and build a positive relationship with a dealer whom you are comfortable with. That dealer will be able to help you build your collection.
For key date coins (in any series) "raw" coins are out, especially bought sight-unseen, and even more so on eBay. Grading numbers are arbitrary, so two 14-D Lincolns with the same number will not always be "equal." That means comparison shopping, and patience, until you find the one you like at the right price.
There are pitfalls on eBay, some of which I cover in a Review I wrote there LINK, maybe that will help you out.
my early American coins & currency: -- http://yankeedoodlecoins.com/
Welcome back! Glad you're here!
Mike
1) Don't buy a raw (unslabbed) Trade Dollar. Ever.
2) The basics in the industry haven't changed, just the prices on many items.
3) Re Coppper, PCGS slabbed coins carry noticeable premiums over NGC material.
4) Third Party Grading - the top tier - PCGS and NGC graders have seen far more coins than you or I ever will. Still, people are graders, and people occasionally make mistakes.
5) Ditto re the folks who issue CAC stickers which you will see affixed to some slabs.
6) Know how to properly grade the coin before you buy it.
7) Have a second set of eyes look at a potential purchase if possible.
8) Unless you're looking at an idiot, if someone offers you something which sounds too good to be true, run in the opposite direction.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
IndianCent.com and ThePennyLady.com are to great sites for you, please visit mine as well.
https://pcgs.com/setregistry/showcase/2819
Luckily my wife is in the hobby too so she understands my urge to spend exorbitant amounts of money to finish a set. She was my second pair of eyes at the show and was a great source of second opinions. Luckily we do not collect the same coins so there is no fighting over who gets the coin.
I'm a little shell shocked at what the key dates go for but not really surprised. Hopefully I can save up enough to start grabbing some of them before too long. The ebay guide as well as the penny seller links were especially helpful. It's nice to know some place I can go for reputable dealers.
I've always bought coins on the aesthetic appeal to me but I might look for some books to help train my eye more. I think that is going to be the key to me getting comfortable in collecting again.