Jim, it seems the heavy weights you're suggesting might bring a lopsided effect to the registry that greatly favors errors. While the Business Strike or Satin Finish coins should be at 1 or 2 weight, having weights over 4 would suggest that the coins are multiples more significant than even a conditionally rare variety like Mitch suggests having great weight. While some errors are very significant, I'd have a hard time calling a weak edge Washington P 68 Satin priced at 1250 more significant than a Washington 69 Satin priced at 2000. There may actually be more MS68 errors found in 10 years than the MS69s, hence the reason one is worth almost double of the other. Same coin, but one is an error in a lower grade.
I suggest perhaps a little less weight given to minor errors, but still sufficient to show their significance to the set? I'm concerned that a 4 or an 8 worth the same $ as a 1 or 2 would be a gross overweight. Maybe adjust weak & partial errors to the level of a tough Business Strike or Satin coin & save the higher weights for the more mainstream errors like Missing Edge coins. There are so many errors that it's almost common to be an error. I could eat those words in a couple of years when perhaps the mint quits making all those mistakes, but perhaps as Mitch says the issue will be visited once again when that rarity is proven more solidly. I'm of the opinion that a lot of the minor Errors have been overlooked & not as hard searched for as the more significant MELs, not to mention the great pains (and large sums) taken to find the conditionally rare top grades of Satin or Business Strike coins.
To sum it up, PCGS' system seems to favor everything as 1 point coins & saves the extra points for proven coins. This makes sense especially when looking at the State Quarter Series that has 1s for most & saves the 2 weight for the errors & 1999s. Even the extra leaf coins are only a 2 weight. So since the series is new, maybe keeping most coins in the 1 or 2 point range like the State Quarters would be a good conservative approach until time has told a solid reason to weigh higher than that. 2 still weighs 2x as much as 1, right?
<< <i>Lee - Enjoyed the conversation tonight. And, you are correct that the MS Ike Dollar series closely tracks the treatment (and weights) of these Pres $1's by PCGS. For example, a 76-D Ike Ty1 gets a weight of 6 and a 76-P Ty 1 Ike a weight of 8. Yet, these coins are worth $1.50 in Choice Unc. grade. Why a weight of 8? Because the top pop MS66 / MS67 coins are conditionally rare. Meanwhile, scarce Ike varieties worth hundreds of dollars in Choice Unc. get lower weights.
Wondercoin >>
Mitch, You make the point valid that the Washington and Adams ARE not RARE in the undergrades and the IKES are. Of course the IKE 76-P TY I is a good coin - it has a MS65 @ $ 275 & a Top pop of MS66 @ $ 3850 (Top pop value is 14x more than undergrade)- BUT the undergrade is still worth a decent amount.
Washington P/A is $ 60 MS66 & $ 4000 in MS67 (Top pop is 66x more than undergrade) Thus it is a conditional rarity because anything BUT the top pop is valuable.
The IKE 76-D TY I has MS66 @ $ 375 & MS67 @ $ 11,500 (Top pop is 31x more than undergrade)-
The TOP 2 - 3 grades are part of the weighting criteria, not just top pop wonders.
Current Pricing of the Washington undergrades. Courtesy of Coinfame $ 89.76 BIN on eBay You will receive 4 coins for your purchase:
2007 P George Washington PCGS MS66 FDI Position A Edge Lettering 2007 P George Washington PCGS MS66 FDI Position B Edge Lettering 2007 D George Washington PCGS MS66 FDI Position A Edge Lettering 2007 D George Washington PCGS MS66 FDI Position B Edge Lettering
So, really the stats are off. Sold coins show Best offers accepted @ $ 70.00 The coins are only $ 17.50 - 22.50 retail per coin presently.
These are nothing like the IKE coins mentioned. That have substantial value more than grading fee recovery money.
<< <i>Jim, it seems the heavy weights you're suggesting might bring a lopsided effect to the registry that greatly favors errors. While the Business Strike or Satin Finish coins should be at 1 or 2 weight, having weights over 4 would suggest that the coins are multiples more significant than even a conditionally rare variety like Mitch suggests having great weight. While some errors are very significant, I'd have a hard time calling a weak edge Washington P 68 Satin priced at 1250 more significant than a Washington 69 Satin priced at 2000. There may actually be more MS68 errors found in 10 years than the MS69s, hence the reason one is worth almost double of the other. Same coin, but one is an error in a lower grade.
I suggest perhaps a little less weight given to minor errors, but still sufficient to show their significance to the set? I'm concerned that a 4 or an 8 worth the same $ as a 1 or 2 would be a gross overweight. Maybe adjust weak & partial errors to the level of a tough Business Strike or Satin coin & save the higher weights for the more mainstream errors like Missing Edge coins. There are so many errors that it's almost common to be an error. I could eat those words in a couple of years when perhaps the mint quits making all those mistakes, but perhaps as Mitch says the issue will be visited once again when that rarity is proven more solidly. I'm of the opinion that a lot of the minor Errors have been overlooked & not as hard searched for as the more significant MELs, not to mention the great pains (and large sums) taken to find the conditionally rare top grades of Satin or Business Strike coins.
To sum it up, PCGS' system seems to favor everything as 1 point coins & saves the extra points for proven coins. This makes sense especially when looking at the State Quarter Series that has 1s for most & saves the 2 weight for the errors & 1999s. Even the extra leaf coins are only a 2 weight. So since the series is new, maybe keeping most coins in the 1 or 2 point range like the State Quarters would be a good conservative approach until time has told a solid reason to weigh higher than that. 2 still weighs 2x as much as 1, right? >>
Seth,
I agree that some mods are in order. Still hard to justify a one grade wonder as a 4 point. UNLESS the undergrade is clearly worth substantially more than grading fees. Weak and partial don't need a lot of points and that is clearly up for debate, just need to be low to middle range ratings. The MEL's are great coins and deserve something at the upper end of the weighting. Common weaks equal to tough buisness strikes might be the split the baby deal. Partials are a lot tougher to locate and PCGS is not giving then away either. Having submitted LOTS of coins attempting to get Weak Edge and Partial Edge coins, just to get back a big fat bill and lots of rejects know that they do not fall out of the sky either.
I really appreciate all of the input. This has turned into quite thread. Mitch, you make good points with passion for the hobby. We just have not met in the middle yet on this one. Seth, Lee, ecoinquest, fcpowell and others have made great comments as well.
The majority seem to think that some modifications are in order on the weighting. I'm just wanting what's best for the hobby and these Presidential Dollar Registry sets.
If PCGS was to add a bonus for First Day Issue coins and gave the varieties at least 1 point higher than presently indicated, then I would be pretty satisfied for now. I believe that would be a good compromise and still highlight many of the great varieties that are to be found for this set. AND would leave plenty of room for expansion as Mitch had mentioned in an earlier post. Saving the upper weights for when the coins prove that they merit a higher weight in time.
Speaking to those MS Ike Dollars - Jim - even if an undergrade MS65 76-P Ike is worth a couple hundred dollars, it does not address the reality that other Ikes in the set worth even more money in MS63 or MS64 grade (and super rare in gem 65) received far less points. The reason the 76-P Ike gets 8 points is primarily due to its standing as a multi-thousand dollar coin in top pop grade.
Likewise, there are memorial cents getting 4 or 5 points that are worth 2 cents in most grades (check out that series' weights as well). And, for only -1- reason - the top pop grade.
Interestingly, a coin like the Wash Dollar MS69SF is worth $1,500 - $2,000 right now (and evidence was presented to the Price Guide editor not too long ago to raise the Price Guide on that exact coin due to a $2,000 sale). Yet, the top pop MEL Adams coin even today sells for less than the Wash MS69SF. Ditto for the Adams Doubled Dies in MS66 grade - I have ALL 3 DDO's available for sale right now (overlapped A, overlapped B and inverted) in top pop grade and every one is available for less than a Wash SF MS69 Dollar lists at. So, honestly, why should a top pop Adams Doubled Die MS66 that is worth about $1,300 or so receive 8 or 9 points, while a Wash Dollar in MS69SF receive 1 point? in fact, consider a business strike Wash P in top pop MS67 grade (pop 3) with a Price Guide value of $6,000+ Seriously, why should this coin get 8x less weight than a $1,300 (yet unproven) variety with a population already 10x its size? Business strike coins are generally the "caviar" to serious collectors (just ask some of the MS state quarter collectors like DR). Even though (for example) the pop 3 /0 Wash P MS67 has roughly 1/10 the pop and 5x the current value at this point, no one suggested weighing it as an 8 or 9 while giving a doubled die a 1 or 2 weight. But, surely it shouldn't be the other way around.
The Presidential Dollar set is simply an incredible series. I have a special personal enjoyment about it, because it is a father/son project for me. Most days after school, I go to the bank with Justin (who turned 17 today) and we closely examine the coins for an hour or two. Nowadays, I even get to engage in "juicy" conversation about such things as his upcoming winter formal dance while studying the specimens.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Proposed Presidential Dollar Coin Weights Set Composition Issue Weight 2007-P George Washington - Position A 4.00 2007-P George Washington - Position A, Satin Finish 3.00 2007-P George Washington - Position A, Satin Finish, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00 2007-P George Washington - Position A, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00 2007-P George Washington - Position B 4.00 2007-P George Washington - Position B, Satin Finish 3.00 2007-P George Washington - Position B, Satin Finish, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00 (2007) George Washington - Missing Edge Lettering 5.00 2007-D George Washington - Position A 3.00 2007-D George Washington - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00 2007-D George Washington - Position A, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00 2007-D George Washington - Position A, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00 2007-D George Washington - Position B 4.00 2007-D George Washington - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00 2007-D George Washington - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00 2007-P John Adams - Position A 4.00 2007-P John Adams - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00 2007-P John Adams - Position B 4.00 2007-P John Adams - Position B, Satin Finish 2.00 2007-P John Adams - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00 2007-P John Adams - Position B, Satin Finish, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00 2007-P John Adams - Doubled Edge Lettering, Overlapped 4.00 2007-P John Adams - Doubled Edge Lettering, Inverted 4.00 (2007) John Adams - Missing Edge Lettering 5.00 2007-D John Adams - Position A 4.00 2007-D John Adams - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00 2007-D John Adams - Position B 4.00 2007-D John Adams - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00 2007-D John Adams - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00 2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position A 1.00 2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00 2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position A, Satin Finish, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00 2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position A Partial Edge Lettering 4.00 2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position A Weak Edge Lettering 3.00 2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position B 1.00 2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position B, Satin Finish 2.00 2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position B Partial Edge Lettering 4.00 2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position B Weak Edge Lettering 3.00 2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position B, Satin Finish, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00 (2007) Thomas Jefferson - Missing Edge Lettering 6.00 2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position A 1.00 2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00 2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position A Partial Edge Lettering 5.00 2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position A Weak Edge Lettering 3.00 2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position B 1.00 2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position B, Satin Finish 4.00 2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position B Partial Edge Lettering 4.00 2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position B Weak Edge Lettering 3.00 2007-P James Madison - Position A 1.00 2007-P James Madison - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00 2007-P James Madison - Position A, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00 2007-P James Madison - Position A, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00 2007-P James Madison - Position B 1.00 2007-P James Madison - Position B, Satin Finish 2.00 2007-D James Madison - Position A 1.00 2007-D James Madison - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00 2007-D James Madison - Position A, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00 2007-D James Madison - Position B 1.00 2007-D James Madison - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00 2007-D James Madison - Position B, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00 2007-D James Madison - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 2.00 2007-P James Madison - Position B, Satin Finish, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00 2008-P James Monroe - Position A 4.00 2008-P James Monroe - Position A, Satin Finish 2.00 2008-P James Monroe - Position A, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00 2008-P James Monroe - Position A, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00 2008-P James Monroe - Position B 4.00 2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00 2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00 2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00 2008-P James Monroe - Doubled Edge Lettering, Overlapped 5.00 2008-P James Monroe - Doubled Edge Lettering, Overlapped, Satin Finish 5.00 2008-D James Monroe - Position A 4.00 2008-D James Monroe - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00 2008-D James Monroe - Position A, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00 2008-D James Monroe - Position A, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00 2008-D James Monroe - Position B 4.00 2008-D James Monroe - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00 2008-D James Monroe - Position B, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00 2008-D James Monroe - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00 2008-P John Quincy Adams - Position A 1.00 2008-P John Quincy Adams - Position A, Satin Finish 2.00 2008-P John Quincy Adams - Position B 2.00 2008-P John Quincy Adams - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00 2008-D John Quincy Adams - Position A 2.00 2008-D John Quincy Adams - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00 2008-D John Quincy Adams - Position B 2.00 2008-D John Quincy Adams - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00 2008-P Andrew Jackson - Position A 1.00 2008-P Andrew Jackson - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00 2008-P Andrew Jackson - Position B 1.00 2008-P Andrew Jackson - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00 2008-D Andrew Jackson - Position A 1.00 2008-D Andrew Jackson - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00 2008-D Andrew Jackson - Position B 1.00 2008-D Andrew Jackson - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00 2008-P Martin Van Buren - Position A 1.00 2008-P Martin Van Buren - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00 2008-P Martin Van Buren - Position B 1.00 2008-P Martin Van Buren - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00 2008-D Martin Van Buren - Position A 1.00 2008-D Martin Van Buren - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00 2008-D Martin Van Buren - Position B 1.00 2008-D Martin Van Buren - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
Plus a 1 point Bonus for "First Day Issue Coins" ===================================================
Although I don't agree with all of the weights. It seems like a good compromise for now.
Here is a good place to illustrate my point about the State Quarters not having a weight more than 2:
2008-P James Monroe - Position B 4.00 2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00 2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00 2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00
I can't see a Business Strike having 4x the value of a Satin Finish. They're in the same category. In the non error sets, this would make low value Business Strikes have 4x the value of a low value SF, which technically the SF have a lower mintage...
Likewise if you have Business Strikes & Satin Finish at 1s mostly with a 2 here and there (like state quarters or Sacs), then the errors can't ALL be worth 3x-5x in the registry. In the sets where the errors count, it makes the non errors worthless in weight which is a big injustice. If you want big weights like that, have an errors only set where you can really go for it and have all the fun you want. In most cases, it's difficult enough as it is to put together a major or complete variety set as it is, but to then put a 3x-5x disadvantage is a bit much.
I'm guessing that the weights assigned to the State Quarters with 1s & 2s were not done by the people with the most errors in their pocket. The 1 & 2 weight system shown in the State Quarters has enough power as it is where a 2 weighs double a 1. 2 to 1 is significant!
I suggest the best person to make the weights would be someone who doesn't have anything to gain one way or another & would give the fairest weights with little input from those that have the most to gain. Nobody on this thread would qualify to make an impartial judgement on this, including me.
This does mean that the ok of one dealer and/or one collector doesn't cut it.
Here is a good place to illustrate my point about the State Quarters not having a weight more than 2:
2008-P James Monroe - Position B 4.00 2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00 2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00 2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00
I can't see a Business Strike having 4x the value of a Satin Finish. They're in the same category. In the non error sets, this would make low value Business Strikes have 4x the value of a low value SF, which technically the SF have a lower mintage...
Likewise if you have Business Strikes & Satin Finish at 1s mostly with a 2 here and there (like state quarters or Sacs), then the errors can't ALL be worth 3x-5x in the registry. In the sets where the errors count, it makes the non errors worthless in weight which is a big injustice. If you want big weights like that, have an errors only set where you can really go for it and have all the fun you want. In most cases, it's difficult enough as it is to put together a major or complete variety set as it is, but to then put a 3x-5x disadvantage is a bit much.
I'm guessing that the weights assigned to the State Quarters with 1s & 2s were not done by the people with the most errors in their pocket. The 1 & 2 weight system shown in the State Quarters has enough power as it is where a 2 weighs double a 1. 2 to 1 is significant!
I suggest the best person to make the weights would be someone who doesn't have anything to gain one way or another & would give the fairest weights with little input from those that have the most to gain. Nobody on this thread would qualify to make an impartial judgement on this, including me.
This does mean that the ok of one dealer and/or one collector doesn't cut it. >>
Seth, Good points.
However, the Complete set is about ALL of the varieties (errors)
The Major set is only about the A&B business, satins and 2 types of errors only.
Then there are the satin only & the Business strike only basic sets.
There are sets for all.
The State Quarter complete set is about errors as well.
However, the Complete set is about ALL of the varieties (errors)
The Major set is only about the A&B business, satins and 2 types of errors only.
Then there are the satin only & the Business strike only basic sets.
There are sets for all.
The State Quarter complete set is about errors as well. >>
This is my point precisely. The complete state quarter set gives a 2 value to significant errors which are now counted twice over a 1. There are many errors that did not even get entered into that set let alone have a value of 2 or more. If the Presidential series has errors & a lot of them, is it not enough to give the good errors a 2 & not have a complicated weight system? If it's all about the errors, there are plenty of them to go around & give weight in the set over the other coins.
If the non-errors are that insignificant that they can be outweighed 4x to 10x, then it sounds like you're bargaining for an error only set. (if non-errors have virtually no value) The slant of the high points for many errors suggests that you should campaign with PCGS for an error only set & you might find 4 or 5 people to compete in that set with you. There are enough errors in the current set or to make an error only set without needing to use highly subjective weights to show the strong points of a particular collection. There are relatively few Presidential Collectors weighing in here on this thread & I believe that all the collectors deserve an impartial weight system that does not benefit any one collector and/or dealer over another.
The 4 or 5 votes on this thread should not run the show on a highly subjective system of value. After all, nobody here was appointed representative by "the people" right?
Seth, I do not want an error only set. The lincoln cents have many varieties and they all get at least a 2 point rating, some more.
Thats all I'm saying is they all have value. Otherwise.....go back to 1 point value for it all.
6 to some, 1/2 dozen to others.....
There are many low pop coins in the series, from Satins and Business Strikes to many error varieties as well.
The one thing I think we can all agree on is.... Some bonus for :First Day Issue" coins, since they do bring a premium, which proves their is a signifigance to the collector. No other series has the "First Day Issue", so there is nothing else to campare them to.
Jim: Your proposed weights are, by no means, unreasonable. But, a couple comments:
1. PCGS has already fixed the weights for this round - utilizing their board of experts in doing so, and notwithstanding your prior written comments to PCGS, my thoughts, and anyone else's views that may have taken the time to communicate with PCGS. I understand the next reweighting will come, at the earliest, later this year. And, I have little doubt weights will be reworked, as PCGS has only utilized 4 points of the 10 point scale to this point.
2. Getting a "bonus" weight for FDI coins will be tough IMHO as PCGS has not, to this point, granted bonus weights to "insert tag" premium values anywhere in the registry I am aware of. For example, on pre-2006 MS First Strike Silver Eagles, not only has PCGS not granted bonus weight to these coins, they have not even required the coins in any registry set I am aware of as of yet. Likewise, on First Strike Platinum or Gold coins - no extra weight to First Strike, even where the FS label translates to a big premium value for the coin in the market place. Their treatment of FDI coins in the Pres $1 series is entirely consistent with their treatment of all labels everywhere throughout the registry I am aware of. So, while I am personally in favor of a small premium for FDI, I realize this is entirely unlikley to happen absent a global reconsideration by PCGS of how they treat "insert tag" premiums for purposes of registry weight.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>2. Getting a "bonus" weight for FDI coins will be tough IMHO as PCGS has not, to this point, granted bonus weights to "insert tag" premium values anywhere in the registry I am aware of. For example, on pre-2006 MS First Strike Silver Eagles, not only has PCGS not granted bonus weight to these coins, they have not even required the coins in any registry set I am aware of as of yet. Likewise, on First Strike Platinum or Gold coins - no extra weight to First Strike, even where the FS label translates to a big premium value for the coin in the market place. Their treatment of FDI coins in the Pres $1 series is entirely consistent with their treatment of all labels everywhere throughout the registry I am aware of. So, while I am personally in favor of a small premium for FDI, I realize this is entirely unlikley to happen absent a global reconsideration by PCGS of how they treat "insert tag" premiums for purposes of registry weight. Wondercoin >>
Insert tag premium values are a stretch for me & I would not personally agree that they're warranted. PCGS has made a place for those insert tags by giving them their own spotlight in the registry where you simply cannot put another coin in it's place. That's value enough for an insert & a great reward for the collectability.
Comments
I suggest perhaps a little less weight given to minor errors, but still sufficient to show their significance to the set? I'm concerned that a 4 or an 8 worth the same $ as a 1 or 2 would be a gross overweight. Maybe adjust weak & partial errors to the level of a tough Business Strike or Satin coin & save the higher weights for the more mainstream errors like Missing Edge coins. There are so many errors that it's almost common to be an error. I could eat those words in a couple of years when perhaps the mint quits making all those mistakes, but perhaps as Mitch says the issue will be visited once again when that rarity is proven more solidly. I'm of the opinion that a lot of the minor Errors have been overlooked & not as hard searched for as the more significant MELs, not to mention the great pains (and large sums) taken to find the conditionally rare top grades of Satin or Business Strike coins.
To sum it up, PCGS' system seems to favor everything as 1 point coins & saves the extra points for proven coins. This makes sense especially when looking at the State Quarter Series that has 1s for most & saves the 2 weight for the errors & 1999s. Even the extra leaf coins are only a 2 weight. So since the series is new, maybe keeping most coins in the 1 or 2 point range like the State Quarters would be a good conservative approach until time has told a solid reason to weigh higher than that. 2 still weighs 2x as much as 1, right?
<< <i>Lee - Enjoyed the conversation tonight. And, you are correct that the MS Ike Dollar series closely tracks the treatment (and weights) of these Pres $1's by PCGS. For example, a 76-D Ike Ty1 gets a weight of 6 and a 76-P Ty 1 Ike a weight of 8. Yet, these coins are worth $1.50 in Choice Unc. grade. Why a weight of 8? Because the top pop MS66 / MS67 coins are conditionally rare. Meanwhile, scarce Ike varieties worth hundreds of dollars in Choice Unc. get lower weights.
Wondercoin >>
Mitch,
You make the point valid that the Washington and Adams ARE not RARE in the undergrades and the IKES are.
Of course the IKE 76-P TY I is a good coin - it has a MS65 @ $ 275 & a Top pop of MS66 @ $ 3850 (Top pop value is 14x more than undergrade)- BUT the undergrade is still worth a decent amount.
Washington P/A is $ 60 MS66 & $ 4000 in MS67 (Top pop is 66x more than undergrade)
Thus it is a conditional rarity because anything BUT the top pop is valuable.
The IKE 76-D TY I has MS66 @ $ 375 & MS67 @ $ 11,500 (Top pop is 31x more than undergrade)-
The TOP 2 - 3 grades are part of the weighting criteria, not just top pop wonders.
Current Pricing of the Washington undergrades.
Courtesy of Coinfame $ 89.76 BIN on eBay
You will receive 4 coins for your purchase:
2007 P George Washington PCGS MS66 FDI Position A Edge Lettering
2007 P George Washington PCGS MS66 FDI Position B Edge Lettering
2007 D George Washington PCGS MS66 FDI Position A Edge Lettering
2007 D George Washington PCGS MS66 FDI Position B Edge Lettering
So, really the stats are off. Sold coins show Best offers accepted @ $ 70.00
The coins are only $ 17.50 - 22.50 retail per coin presently.
These are nothing like the IKE coins mentioned. That have substantial value more than grading fee recovery money.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
<< <i>Jim, it seems the heavy weights you're suggesting might bring a lopsided effect to the registry that greatly favors errors. While the Business Strike or Satin Finish coins should be at 1 or 2 weight, having weights over 4 would suggest that the coins are multiples more significant than even a conditionally rare variety like Mitch suggests having great weight. While some errors are very significant, I'd have a hard time calling a weak edge Washington P 68 Satin priced at 1250 more significant than a Washington 69 Satin priced at 2000. There may actually be more MS68 errors found in 10 years than the MS69s, hence the reason one is worth almost double of the other. Same coin, but one is an error in a lower grade.
I suggest perhaps a little less weight given to minor errors, but still sufficient to show their significance to the set? I'm concerned that a 4 or an 8 worth the same $ as a 1 or 2 would be a gross overweight. Maybe adjust weak & partial errors to the level of a tough Business Strike or Satin coin & save the higher weights for the more mainstream errors like Missing Edge coins. There are so many errors that it's almost common to be an error. I could eat those words in a couple of years when perhaps the mint quits making all those mistakes, but perhaps as Mitch says the issue will be visited once again when that rarity is proven more solidly. I'm of the opinion that a lot of the minor Errors have been overlooked & not as hard searched for as the more significant MELs, not to mention the great pains (and large sums) taken to find the conditionally rare top grades of Satin or Business Strike coins.
To sum it up, PCGS' system seems to favor everything as 1 point coins & saves the extra points for proven coins. This makes sense especially when looking at the State Quarter Series that has 1s for most & saves the 2 weight for the errors & 1999s. Even the extra leaf coins are only a 2 weight. So since the series is new, maybe keeping most coins in the 1 or 2 point range like the State Quarters would be a good conservative approach until time has told a solid reason to weigh higher than that. 2 still weighs 2x as much as 1, right? >>
Seth,
I agree that some mods are in order.
Still hard to justify a one grade wonder as a 4 point. UNLESS the undergrade is clearly worth substantially more than grading fees.
Weak and partial don't need a lot of points and that is clearly up for debate, just need to be low to middle range ratings.
The MEL's are great coins and deserve something at the upper end of the weighting.
Common weaks equal to tough buisness strikes might be the split the baby deal.
Partials are a lot tougher to locate and PCGS is not giving then away either.
Having submitted LOTS of coins attempting to get Weak Edge and Partial Edge coins,
just to get back a big fat bill and lots of rejects know that they do not fall out of the sky either.
I really appreciate all of the input. This has turned into quite thread.
Mitch, you make good points with passion for the hobby. We just have not met in the middle yet on this one.
Seth, Lee, ecoinquest, fcpowell and others have made great comments as well.
The majority seem to think that some modifications are in order on the weighting.
I'm just wanting what's best for the hobby and these Presidential Dollar Registry sets.
If PCGS was to add a bonus for First Day Issue coins and gave the varieties at least 1 point higher than presently indicated, then I would be pretty satisfied for now. I believe that would be a good compromise and still highlight many of the great varieties that are to be found for this set. AND would leave plenty of room for expansion as Mitch had mentioned in an earlier post. Saving the upper weights for when the coins prove that they merit a higher weight in time.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
Speaking to those MS Ike Dollars - Jim - even if an undergrade MS65 76-P Ike is worth a couple hundred dollars, it does not address the reality that other Ikes in the set worth even more money in MS63 or MS64 grade (and super rare in gem 65) received far less points. The reason the 76-P Ike gets 8 points is primarily due to its standing as a multi-thousand dollar coin in top pop grade.
Likewise, there are memorial cents getting 4 or 5 points that are worth 2 cents in most grades (check out that series' weights as well). And, for only -1- reason - the top pop grade.
Interestingly, a coin like the Wash Dollar MS69SF is worth $1,500 - $2,000 right now (and evidence was presented to the Price Guide editor not too long ago to raise the Price Guide on that exact coin due to a $2,000 sale). Yet, the top pop MEL Adams coin even today sells for less than the Wash MS69SF. Ditto for the Adams Doubled Dies in MS66 grade - I have ALL 3 DDO's available for sale right now (overlapped A, overlapped B and inverted) in top pop grade and every one is available for less than a Wash SF MS69 Dollar lists at. So, honestly, why should a top pop Adams Doubled Die MS66 that is worth about $1,300 or so receive 8 or 9 points, while a Wash Dollar in MS69SF receive 1 point? in fact, consider a business strike Wash P in top pop MS67 grade (pop 3) with a Price Guide value of $6,000+ Seriously, why should this coin get 8x less weight than a $1,300 (yet unproven) variety with a population already 10x its size? Business strike coins are generally the "caviar" to serious collectors (just ask some of the MS state quarter collectors like DR). Even though (for example) the pop 3 /0 Wash P MS67 has roughly 1/10 the pop and 5x the current value at this point, no one suggested weighing it as an 8 or 9 while giving a doubled die a 1 or 2 weight. But, surely it shouldn't be the other way around.
The Presidential Dollar set is simply an incredible series. I have a special personal enjoyment about it, because it is a father/son project for me. Most days after school, I go to the bank with Justin (who turned 17 today) and we closely examine the coins for an hour or two. Nowadays, I even get to engage in "juicy" conversation about such things as his upcoming winter formal dance while studying the specimens.
Wondercoin
<< <i>Now, as for Sacs - they are 8+ years old and PCGS was comfortable using the 10 point scale for that series >>
I do believe the 10 point coin, Cheerios Sacagawea, was discovered in 2005? So yes the series may be 8+ years old but the 10 point coin is not.
THESE ARE NOT THE CURRENT WEIGHTS !!
Proposed Presidential Dollar Coin Weights
Set Composition
Issue Weight
2007-P George Washington - Position A 4.00
2007-P George Washington - Position A, Satin Finish 3.00
2007-P George Washington - Position A, Satin Finish, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
2007-P George Washington - Position A, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00
2007-P George Washington - Position B 4.00
2007-P George Washington - Position B, Satin Finish 3.00
2007-P George Washington - Position B, Satin Finish, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
(2007) George Washington - Missing Edge Lettering 5.00
2007-D George Washington - Position A 3.00
2007-D George Washington - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-D George Washington - Position A, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00
2007-D George Washington - Position A, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
2007-D George Washington - Position B 4.00
2007-D George Washington - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-D George Washington - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
2007-P John Adams - Position A 4.00
2007-P John Adams - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-P John Adams - Position B 4.00
2007-P John Adams - Position B, Satin Finish 2.00
2007-P John Adams - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
2007-P John Adams - Position B, Satin Finish, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
2007-P John Adams - Doubled Edge Lettering, Overlapped 4.00
2007-P John Adams - Doubled Edge Lettering, Inverted 4.00
(2007) John Adams - Missing Edge Lettering 5.00
2007-D John Adams - Position A 4.00
2007-D John Adams - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-D John Adams - Position B 4.00
2007-D John Adams - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-D John Adams - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position A 1.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position A, Satin Finish, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position A Partial Edge Lettering 4.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position A Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position B 1.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position B, Satin Finish 2.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position B Partial Edge Lettering 4.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position B Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position B, Satin Finish, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
(2007) Thomas Jefferson - Missing Edge Lettering 6.00
2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position A 1.00
2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position A Partial Edge Lettering 5.00
2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position A Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position B 1.00
2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position B, Satin Finish 4.00
2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position B Partial Edge Lettering 4.00
2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position B Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
2007-P James Madison - Position A 1.00
2007-P James Madison - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-P James Madison - Position A, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00
2007-P James Madison - Position A, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00
2007-P James Madison - Position B 1.00
2007-P James Madison - Position B, Satin Finish 2.00
2007-D James Madison - Position A 1.00
2007-D James Madison - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-D James Madison - Position A, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00
2007-D James Madison - Position B 1.00
2007-D James Madison - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-D James Madison - Position B, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00
2007-D James Madison - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 2.00
2007-P James Madison - Position B, Satin Finish, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position A 4.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position A, Satin Finish 2.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position A, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position A, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position B 4.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00
2008-P James Monroe - Doubled Edge Lettering, Overlapped 5.00
2008-P James Monroe - Doubled Edge Lettering, Overlapped, Satin Finish 5.00
2008-D James Monroe - Position A 4.00
2008-D James Monroe - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-D James Monroe - Position A, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00
2008-D James Monroe - Position A, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00
2008-D James Monroe - Position B 4.00
2008-D James Monroe - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-D James Monroe - Position B, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00
2008-D James Monroe - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
2008-P John Quincy Adams - Position A 1.00
2008-P John Quincy Adams - Position A, Satin Finish 2.00
2008-P John Quincy Adams - Position B 2.00
2008-P John Quincy Adams - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-D John Quincy Adams - Position A 2.00
2008-D John Quincy Adams - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-D John Quincy Adams - Position B 2.00
2008-D John Quincy Adams - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-P Andrew Jackson - Position A 1.00
2008-P Andrew Jackson - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-P Andrew Jackson - Position B 1.00
2008-P Andrew Jackson - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-D Andrew Jackson - Position A 1.00
2008-D Andrew Jackson - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-D Andrew Jackson - Position B 1.00
2008-D Andrew Jackson - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-P Martin Van Buren - Position A 1.00
2008-P Martin Van Buren - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-P Martin Van Buren - Position B 1.00
2008-P Martin Van Buren - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-D Martin Van Buren - Position A 1.00
2008-D Martin Van Buren - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-D Martin Van Buren - Position B 1.00
2008-D Martin Van Buren - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
Plus a 1 point Bonus for "First Day Issue Coins"
===================================================
Although I don't agree with all of the weights. It seems like a good compromise for now.
Anyone in agreement on these proposed weights?
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
Here is a good place to illustrate my point about the State Quarters not having a weight more than 2:
2008-P James Monroe - Position B 4.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00
I can't see a Business Strike having 4x the value of a Satin Finish. They're in the same category. In the non error sets, this would make low value Business Strikes have 4x the value of a low value SF, which technically the SF have a lower mintage...
Likewise if you have Business Strikes & Satin Finish at 1s mostly with a 2 here and there (like state quarters or Sacs), then the errors can't ALL be worth 3x-5x in the registry. In the sets where the errors count, it makes the non errors worthless in weight which is a big injustice. If you want big weights like that, have an errors only set where you can really go for it and have all the fun you want. In most cases, it's difficult enough as it is to put together a major or complete variety set as it is, but to then put a 3x-5x disadvantage is a bit much.
I'm guessing that the weights assigned to the State Quarters with 1s & 2s were not done by the people with the most errors in their pocket. The 1 & 2 weight system shown in the State Quarters has enough power as it is where a 2 weighs double a 1. 2 to 1 is significant!
I suggest the best person to make the weights would be someone who doesn't have anything to gain one way or another & would give the fairest weights with little input from those that have the most to gain. Nobody on this thread would qualify to make an impartial judgement on this, including me.
This does mean that the ok of one dealer and/or one collector doesn't cut it.
<< <i>Jim,
Here is a good place to illustrate my point about the State Quarters not having a weight more than 2:
2008-P James Monroe - Position B 4.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Partial Edge Lettering 5.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 4.00
I can't see a Business Strike having 4x the value of a Satin Finish. They're in the same category. In the non error sets, this would make low value Business Strikes have 4x the value of a low value SF, which technically the SF have a lower mintage...
Likewise if you have Business Strikes & Satin Finish at 1s mostly with a 2 here and there (like state quarters or Sacs), then the errors can't ALL be worth 3x-5x in the registry. In the sets where the errors count, it makes the non errors worthless in weight which is a big injustice. If you want big weights like that, have an errors only set where you can really go for it and have all the fun you want. In most cases, it's difficult enough as it is to put together a major or complete variety set as it is, but to then put a 3x-5x disadvantage is a bit much.
I'm guessing that the weights assigned to the State Quarters with 1s & 2s were not done by the people with the most errors in their pocket. The 1 & 2 weight system shown in the State Quarters has enough power as it is where a 2 weighs double a 1. 2 to 1 is significant!
I suggest the best person to make the weights would be someone who doesn't have anything to gain one way or another & would give the fairest weights with little input from those that have the most to gain. Nobody on this thread would qualify to make an impartial judgement on this, including me.
This does mean that the ok of one dealer and/or one collector doesn't cut it. >>
Seth,
Good points.
However, the Complete set is about ALL of the varieties (errors)
The Major set is only about the A&B business, satins and 2 types of errors only.
Then there are the satin only & the Business strike only basic sets.
There are sets for all.
The State Quarter complete set is about errors as well.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
<< <i>Seth,
Good points.
However, the Complete set is about ALL of the varieties (errors)
The Major set is only about the A&B business, satins and 2 types of errors only.
Then there are the satin only & the Business strike only basic sets.
There are sets for all.
The State Quarter complete set is about errors as well. >>
This is my point precisely. The complete state quarter set gives a 2 value to significant errors which are now counted twice over a 1. There are many errors that did not even get entered into that set let alone have a value of 2 or more. If the Presidential series has errors & a lot of them, is it not enough to give the good errors a 2 & not have a complicated weight system? If it's all about the errors, there are plenty of them to go around & give weight in the set over the other coins.
If the non-errors are that insignificant that they can be outweighed 4x to 10x, then it sounds like you're bargaining for an error only set. (if non-errors have virtually no value) The slant of the high points for many errors suggests that you should campaign with PCGS for an error only set & you might find 4 or 5 people to compete in that set with you. There are enough errors in the current set or to make an error only set without needing to use highly subjective weights to show the strong points of a particular collection. There are relatively few Presidential Collectors weighing in here on this thread & I believe that all the collectors deserve an impartial weight system that does not benefit any one collector and/or dealer over another.
The 4 or 5 votes on this thread should not run the show on a highly subjective system of value. After all, nobody here was appointed representative by "the people" right?
I do not want an error only set.
The lincoln cents have many varieties and they all get at least a 2 point rating, some more.
Thats all I'm saying is they all have value.
Otherwise.....go back to 1 point value for it all.
6 to some, 1/2 dozen to others.....
There are many low pop coins in the series, from Satins and Business Strikes to many error varieties as well.
The one thing I think we can all agree on is....
Some bonus for :First Day Issue" coins, since they do bring a premium, which proves their is a signifigance to the collector.
No other series has the "First Day Issue", so there is nothing else to campare them to.
Gardnerville, NV
=========================
Our Website -->Innovation, Native & Presidential Dollar Errors, Lincoln Cents and more
Check it out --> Our eBay Auctions
1. PCGS has already fixed the weights for this round - utilizing their board of experts in doing so, and notwithstanding your prior written comments to PCGS, my thoughts, and anyone else's views that may have taken the time to communicate with PCGS. I understand the next reweighting will come, at the earliest, later this year. And, I have little doubt weights will be reworked, as PCGS has only utilized 4 points of the 10 point scale to this point.
2. Getting a "bonus" weight for FDI coins will be tough IMHO as PCGS has not, to this point, granted bonus weights to "insert tag" premium values anywhere in the registry I am aware of. For example, on pre-2006 MS First Strike Silver Eagles, not only has PCGS not granted bonus weight to these coins, they have not even required the coins in any registry set I am aware of as of yet. Likewise, on First Strike Platinum or Gold coins - no extra weight to First Strike, even where the FS label translates to a big premium value for the coin in the market place. Their treatment of FDI coins in the Pres $1 series is entirely consistent with their treatment of all labels everywhere throughout the registry I am aware of. So, while I am personally in favor of a small premium for FDI, I realize this is entirely unlikley to happen absent a global reconsideration by PCGS of how they treat "insert tag" premiums for purposes of registry weight.
Wondercoin
<< <i>2. Getting a "bonus" weight for FDI coins will be tough IMHO as PCGS has not, to this point, granted bonus weights to "insert tag" premium values anywhere in the registry I am aware of. For example, on pre-2006 MS First Strike Silver Eagles, not only has PCGS not granted bonus weight to these coins, they have not even required the coins in any registry set I am aware of as of yet. Likewise, on First Strike Platinum or Gold coins - no extra weight to First Strike, even where the FS label translates to a big premium value for the coin in the market place. Their treatment of FDI coins in the Pres $1 series is entirely consistent with their treatment of all labels everywhere throughout the registry I am aware of. So, while I am personally in favor of a small premium for FDI, I realize this is entirely unlikley to happen absent a global reconsideration by PCGS of how they treat "insert tag" premiums for purposes of registry weight. Wondercoin >>
Insert tag premium values are a stretch for me & I would not personally agree that they're warranted. PCGS has made a place for those insert tags by giving them their own spotlight in the registry where you simply cannot put another coin in it's place. That's value enough for an insert & a great reward for the collectability.