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Presidential Dollars - Weighted Sets ?

I have noticed the big daddy of Presidential Sets has been weighted.
====================================================
Set Composition
Issue Weight
2007-P George Washington - Position A 4.00
2007-P George Washington - Position A, Satin Finish 3.00
2007-P George Washington - Position A, Satin Finish, Weak Edge Lettering 2.00
2007-P George Washington - Position A, Partial Edge Lettering 4.00
2007-P George Washington - Position B 4.00
2007-P George Washington - Position B, Satin Finish 3.00
2007-P George Washington - Position B, Satin Finish, Weak Edge Lettering 2.00
(2007) George Washington - Missing Edge Lettering 4.00
2007-D George Washington - Position A 3.00
2007-D George Washington - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-D George Washington - Position A, Partial Edge Lettering 4.00
2007-D George Washington - Position A, Weak Edge Lettering 2.00
2007-D George Washington - Position B 4.00
2007-D George Washington - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-D George Washington - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 2.00
2007-P John Adams - Position A 4.00
2007-P John Adams - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-P John Adams - Position B 4.00
2007-P John Adams - Position B, Satin Finish 2.00
2007-P John Adams - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 2.00
2007-P John Adams - Position B, Satin Finish, Weak Edge Lettering 2.00
2007-P John Adams - Doubled Edge Lettering, Overlapped 3.00
2007-P John Adams - Doubled Edge Lettering, Inverted 3.00
(2007) John Adams - Missing Edge Lettering 4.00
2007-D John Adams - Position A 4.00
2007-D John Adams - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-D John Adams - Position B 4.00
2007-D John Adams - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-D John Adams - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position A 1.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position A, Satin Finish, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position A Partial Edge Lettering 3.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position A Weak Edge Lettering 2.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position B 1.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position B, Satin Finish 2.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position B Partial Edge Lettering 3.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position B Weak Edge Lettering 2.00
2007-P Thomas Jefferson - Position B, Satin Finish, Weak Edge Lettering 2.00
(2007) Thomas Jefferson - Missing Edge Lettering 4.00
2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position A 1.00
2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position A Partial Edge Lettering 4.00
2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position A Weak Edge Lettering 2.00
2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position B 1.00
2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position B, Satin Finish 4.00
2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position B Partial Edge Lettering 3.00
2007-D Thomas Jefferson - Position B Weak Edge Lettering 2.00
2007-P James Madison - Position A 1.00
2007-P James Madison - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-P James Madison - Position A, Partial Edge Lettering 4.00
2007-P James Madison - Position A, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
2007-P James Madison - Position B 1.00
2007-P James Madison - Position B, Satin Finish 2.00
2007-D James Madison - Position A 1.00
2007-D James Madison - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-D James Madison - Position A, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
2007-D James Madison - Position B 1.00
2007-D James Madison - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2007-D James Madison - Position B, Partial Edge Lettering 4.00
2007-D James Madison - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 2.00
2007-P James Madison - Position B, Satin Finish, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position A 4.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position A, Satin Finish 2.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position A, Partial Edge Lettering 4.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position A, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position B 4.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Partial Edge Lettering 4.00
2008-P James Monroe - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
2008-P James Monroe - Doubled Edge Lettering, Overlapped 4.00
2008-P James Monroe - Doubled Edge Lettering, Overlapped, Satin Finish 4.00
2008-D James Monroe - Position A 4.00
2008-D James Monroe - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-D James Monroe - Position A, Partial Edge Lettering 4.00
2008-D James Monroe - Position A, Weak Edge Lettering 3.00
2008-D James Monroe - Position B 4.00
2008-D James Monroe - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-D James Monroe - Position B, Partial Edge Lettering 4.00
2008-D James Monroe - Position B, Weak Edge Lettering 2.00
2008-P John Quincy Adams - Position A 1.00
2008-P John Quincy Adams - Position A, Satin Finish 2.00
2008-P John Quincy Adams - Position B 2.00
2008-P John Quincy Adams - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-D John Quincy Adams - Position A 2.00
2008-D John Quincy Adams - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-D John Quincy Adams - Position B 2.00
2008-D John Quincy Adams - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-P Andrew Jackson - Position A 1.00
2008-P Andrew Jackson - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-P Andrew Jackson - Position B 1.00
2008-P Andrew Jackson - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-D Andrew Jackson - Position A 1.00
2008-D Andrew Jackson - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-D Andrew Jackson - Position B 1.00
2008-D Andrew Jackson - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-P Martin Van Buren - Position A 1.00
2008-P Martin Van Buren - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-P Martin Van Buren - Position B 1.00
2008-P Martin Van Buren - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-D Martin Van Buren - Position A 1.00
2008-D Martin Van Buren - Position A, Satin Finish 1.00
2008-D Martin Van Buren - Position B 1.00
2008-D Martin Van Buren - Position B, Satin Finish 1.00

Divisor: 235.00
===================================================

I believe the weighting to be a good thing, however....

When I have cases and cases of Washington and John Adams dollars.
Why are they worth 4 points? The same as a Washington, Adams and Jefferson MELS?

Weak edge coins all were rated at 2 or 3 points.
Partial Edge coins pulled 3 or 4 points
Missing Edge Lettering coins are all rated at 4 points.

And Business Strikes and Satins all received 1 point Except the Washington and John Adams business strikes which are rated at 4 points( And a few select Satin coins as well)?

Does this seem balanced?
Coins common as dirt itself should have the 1 point rating!
Some weaks are rated as high as partials?
The Doubled edge lettering and MELS should be rated higher.

I'm Confused? Please explain this to me. .......Or am I just missing something.
«1

Comments

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jim: It actually makes perfect sense to me if you want to be consistent with other weighted charts out there. For example, take Lincoln cents - the 26-S cent gets a huge weight and, of course, it is deserving of that weight when you are talking about 64RD or 65RD pieces. But, no doubt circulated rolls or low grade Uncs are just as common as other coins getting a 1 weight or a 2 weight. Yet, those lower grade coins get the huge weight as well under the PCGS system.

    Now, consider a P mint MS67 Washington Dollar - one of the positions is still pop 3 to this day -right? So, the coin gets more weight than, say, a Jefferson P MS67 with hundreds and hundreds in the pop. Entirely consistent with the way Lincoln cents are treated - no?

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • SilverstateSilverstate Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭
    Mitch,

    The Sacagawea set is as follows...
    Set Composition
    Issue Weight
    2000-P 1.00
    2000-P Goodacre 3.00
    2000-P Cheerios Dollar FS-401 10.00
    2000-P Wounded Eagle FS-901 5.00
    2000-D 2.00
    2000-D Millennium 3.00
    2001-P 1.00
    2001-D 2.00
    2002-P 1.00
    2002-D 1.00
    2003-P 1.00
    2003-D 1.00
    2004-P 1.00
    2004-D 1.00
    2005-P 1.00
    2005-P Satin Finish 1.00
    2005-D 1.00
    2005-D Satin Finish 1.00
    2006-P 1.00
    2006-P Satin Finish 1.00
    2006-D 1.00
    2006-D Satin Finish 1.00
    2007-P 1.00
    2007-P Satin Finish 1.00
    2007-D 1.00
    2007-D Satin Finish 1.00
    2008-P 1.00
    2008-P Satin Finish 1.00
    2008-D 1.00
    2008-D Satin Finish 1.00

    Divisor: 49.00
    -------------------------------------------

    Take the 2000-P for example. Top pop shows only 6 coins, yet it is rated at 1 point.
    The 2004-D (pop 8 MS69), 2005-D (pop 4 MS68) and the 2006 -D (pop 3 MS68) - All low pops at the top but only get 1 point.
    Even low pop satins ge the same treatment. The 2005-P satin (Pop 4 MS70), gets only 1 point.

    So, using the SAC dollars as examples. The presidential weighting seems off to me.
    The MEL dollars have to be at least as significant as the wounded eagles.

    Then the Doubled edge lettering coins. Seems like they should get some more weight being a Major variety.
    Since I see a Washington and John Adams coins rated the same weight as the John Adams MELs and the Doubled edge Lettering coins, something is of balance here.

    Yes, weighting based on importance to the collector as well.
    MELS and doubled edge coins should be as important as a wounded eagle is to the SAC collection.

    None of the SAC dollars even as rare as they are in high grade, have a higher rating than the variety coins.

    Just an observation. Some adjustments are in order.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    IMHO, the Sacs clearly need some reweighting at this point. If you feel like it, let PCGS know we both believe that is the case. Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • SilverstateSilverstate Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭
    How can a "Missing Edge Lettering"(Washington, Adams, Jefferson or ?) be the same weight as a Washington or Adams Business Strike?

    Just no way to justify this from my perspective.

    Business strikes should never be weighted heavier than any of the varieties in the sets.
    Give the business strikes and satin ratings of 1 or 2 , If you like.

    Major Varieties need to be weighted more than business strikes.
    Minor varieties should still be weighted more than regular business strikes.

    Also in keeping with this weighting.
    Is a MS66 Washington MEL rated the same as a MS66 Washington MEL FDI ?
    Since the price seems to be far apart.
    How can the weighting support this as well?


    image
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jim - Is it always just the two of us going back and forth on these issues? LOL. Let's talk via Pm or on the phone - I have my thoughts on the subject and judging from your comments, they appear slightly different than yours.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • eCoinquesteCoinquest Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭
    I will add my two cents since this has been a 2 man thread.lol

    I feel the Sac Dollars are very well weighted, the weights represent the rarity of the coins, not the relative rarity of the grades.

    Wondercoin- With all due respect I strongly disagree with your above post in that the weighting is justified by the low pops of some of the Pres. Dollars. The holes in the sets may still be filled with one of the wheelbarrow loads of 1-2 point lower coins.
    How does that make sense that a coin thats to be had for a couple bucks should be worth the same weight as the MELs?? The weighting should go by rarity in all grades as is the current for the Sac Dollars.


  • Okay - here are my thoughts. I disagree with Mitch 100%. Weighting in old gold is based on the scarcity of the coin, not how low the actual top pop is.

    St. Gaudens for example.

    1907 Extremely High Relief 10.00
    1907 Judd-1776 Pattern 10.00
    1907 High Relief-Wire Ed. 5.00
    1907 High Relief-Flat Ed. 6.00
    1907 Saint 2.00
    1908 No Motto 1.00
    1908-D No Motto 4.00
    1908 Motto 5.00
    1908-D Motto 4.00
    1908-S 6.00
    1909 6.00
    1909/8 6.00
    1909-D 6.00
    1909-S 4.00
    1910 4.00
    1910-D 3.00
    1910-S 4.00
    1911 5.00
    1911-D 2.00
    1911-S 4.00
    1912 5.00
    1913 6.00
    1913-D 4.00
    1913-S 6.00
    1914 5.00
    1914-D 3.00
    1914-S 2.00
    1915 5.00
    1915-S 2.00
    1916-S 2.00
    1920 4.00
    1920-S 9.00
    1921 9.00
    1922 2.00
    1922-S 6.00
    1923 3.00
    1923-D 2.00
    1924 1.00
    1924-D 7.00
    1924-S 7.00
    1925 1.00
    1925-D 7.00
    1925-S 8.00
    1926 1.00
    1926-D 8.00
    1926-S 6.00
    1927 1.00
    1927-D 10.00
    1927-S 8.00
    1928 1.00
    1929 7.00
    1930-S 8.00
    1931 7.00
    1931-D 7.00
    1932 7.00
    1933 10.00

    Now a few lines from the pop report:

    PCGS No Date Den Variety Desig VG F VF 40 45 50 53 55 58 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 Total Graded
    (All grades)
    9176 1923-D $20 MS 1 3 44 18 52 429 1,065 2,431 2,194 1,386 59 7,682
    9177 1924 $20 MS 2 12 9 163 1,660 2,006 8,395 38,253 66,929 63,493 32,394 7,262 79 1 220,658
    9178 1924-D $20 MS 1 2 1 19 69 13 34 125 132 142 8 2 548
    9179 1924-S $20 MS 2 2 9 50 7 30 102 140 92 2 1 437
    9180 1925 $20 MS 4 56 389 432 1,539 6,734 11,216 9,980 4,866 1,019 5 36,240
    145743 1925 $20 DDR FS-801 MS 1 1 2
    9181 1925-D $20 MS 1 1 7 19 11 21 81 98 123 4 2 368
    9182 1925-S $20 MS 1 1 6 8 20 12 41 79 3 16 55 73 21 2 1 1 1 341
    9183 1926 $20 MS 1 28 237 114 596 2,767 5,630 5,888 3,287 680 3 19,231
    145744 1926 $20 TDO FS-101 MS 5 2 7
    9184 1926-D $20 MS 2 8 15 4 15 44 48 18 5 2 161
    9185 1926-S $20 MS 3 2 5 28 4 35 93 148 291 27 2 638
    9186 1927 $20 MS 1 7 6 133 1,263 899 3,938 17,796 32,932 36,011 20,133 4,897 12 118,028
    9187 1927-D $20 MS 1 1 4 1 7
    9188 1927-S $20 MS 1 1 6 1 12 25 3 9 34 21 5 5 2 1 126
    9189 1928 $20 MS 2 1 7 2 82 591 381 1,461 6,599 10,781 11,259 6,800 2,464 65 40,496
    9190 1929 $20 MS 3 4 2 2 17 33 98 22 5 186
    9191 1930-S $20 MS 1 2 3 3 18 8 5 41
    9192 1931 $20 MS 2 3 10 29 25 9 1 79
    9193 1931-D $20 MS 1 1 2 4 14 19 39 16 3 99
    9194 1932 $20 MS 1 8 24 28 7 68


    So, if you pay close attention to this Mitch, the 1924 has a weight of 1.00 but there are more than 220,000 coins. The top pop is a single MS68. By your logic, that should be a very highly weighted coin. The 1927-D is weighted at 10.00. It only has a total of 7 known specimens. So, this weighting follows Elsmore's logic and the way any rational person should see it. Any Tom, Dick, or Harry can have a 1924. So it is worth nothing in weighting. Much like your Presidential dolalrs that are a pop 3 at the top but raedily available. The St. gaudens 1927-D is a rare coin and deesrves the weight of 10.00 since only seven people could ever own one at this time.

    So, in summary, the weighting is a joke and Elsmore is more on track in my opinion. And for those who do not know me, I have a presidential set or two.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sorry, I can not address the Saints chart and weightings. Back to mid to late 20th century charts and coins for the moment - anyone care to comment on my 1926-S cent comparison? Seems 100% consistent to me. Unless someone is going to suggest that 26-S cents in circulated grades and low grade Uncs are "rare"? Is that what anyone is saying? Address my direct point please. Of course, the Pres $1 weights being debated here are similar to keys in top grade in other charts like Lincoln cents. Now, if you are suggesting that all of these registry sets should be revised such that coins that are not rare in lower grades should get no more extra weight in top pop grade where they are scarce or rare, then I am all for consistentcy. Consistency is the key - again, I can show you countless 20th century registry sets where the scarce or rare top pop coin gets big weight while it is quite common in lower grades. Obviously, some think this approach is wrong - across the board.

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • Okay - I hate to bust any bubbles, but my prior example is spot on. Here are the rules per PCGS:

    Grade Points, Set Ratings and Weighting

    After each set is registered, its "Grade Points" are determined. In unweighted sets, the grade points are the average grade of the coins in the set, plus or minus bonuses or deductions (see below).

    For weighted sets, the rarest coin in the set may have a weight of "10" and the most common coin will have a weight of "1." The grades are multiplied by the weights. That total is divided by the total number of coin weights. That gives the "Weighted Grade Point Average." The "Set Rating" is achieved by dividing the weighted grade sum by the total sum of the weights in the entire set. All sets are listed in order of their Set Rating.


    And the link: Link to Rules

    So, as you can see Mitch, the Adams and the Washington coins that you reference are not at all worthy or any weight other than a 1.00 acording to the rules. On the other hand, the unique coins are truly the coins that should have the highest weighting. Just because a coin has a POP of 3 in the highest grade does not make it a rare coin. In fact, the example I posted yesterday with the St. Gaudens is exactly how the weighting is supposed to be done.

    Hope this helps.
  • SilverstateSilverstate Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Sorry, I can not address the Saints chart and weightings. Back to mid to late 20th century charts and coins for the moment - anyone care to comment on my 1926-S cent comparison? Seems 100% consistent to me. Unless someone is going to suggest that 26-S cents in circulated grades and low grade Uncs are "rare"? Is that what anyone is saying? Address my direct point please. Of course, the Pres $1 weights being debated here are similar to keys in top grade in other charts like Lincoln cents. Now, if you are suggesting that all of these registry sets should be revised such that coins that are not rare in lower grades should get no more extra weight in top pop grade where they are scarce or rare, then I am all for consistentcy. Consistency is the key - again, I can show you countless 20th century registry sets where the scarce or rare top pop coin gets big weight while it is quite common in lower grades. Obviously, some think this approach is wrong - across the board.

    Wondercoin >>



    Re: the 26-s Lincoln.

    It is rated higher than it really deserves.
    It already get a 5 bonus for being RD, but the 9 points is too high compared to the 1917 DDO ( total pop of 97 coins, only 12 in RD - 7 points and a 2 pt bonus for RD)

    My observation is it's overrated.
    Yes, agreed the 26-S is rare.
    Price guide pricing for the top 3 grades is $2500 to $ 130,000 for 63RD to 65RD

    The 1917 DDO variety is rarer than the 26-S
    Price guide pricing for the top 3 grades is $22,500 to $ 110,000 for 65RD to 67RD

    But rather than debate this.

    The observation is that both the 26-s and 1917 DDO are rare, in quite a few grades NOT just the top grade.

    Putting this in perspective.
    The Washington P/A FDI in MS66 is very common and the PCGS price guide support this as well.
    Price guide pricing for the top 3 grades is $15 MS65, $ 55 MS66 & $ 4,000 MS67

    Way too common to out rank any of the Varieties, including the Weak edge, partial edges, Dbl Edges and MELS.

    If the coin value jumps wildly from $50 or less levels to thousands and lots of coins available. It is common.
    Grade rarity in ONLY the top grade does NOT make a coin worthy of a higher point rating.


    PCGS Guidelines are as follows on weighting of sets......

    What are weights? Within a set, not all coins have the same value and rarity. Sets in the PCGS Set Registry are weighted on a 1 to 10 scale with 10 being the rarest coin and 1 being the most common. While it may be in true in some instances that a coin may be many times over 10 as rare as the most common coin in the set, the Registry keeps the scale simple so that all levels of collectors can compete.

    The Registry weighting is done by taking three things into account:

    1. The overall rarity of the coin, i.e. the rarity in all grades

    2. The rarity in the highest 2 or 3 grades

    3. The price (because this is an indication of demand and importance to collectors)

    Why are some sets not weighted? Sets may be added without weights so that collectors may begin adding their coins. Eventually, all sets will be weighted.

    How is the GPA calculated? The Weighted Grade Point Average is the grade of each item registered in the set multiplied by the weight and then summed. That sum is divided by the total number of registered coin weights.

    How is the Set Rating calculated? The Set Rating is achieved by dividing the weighted grade sum by the total sum of the weights in the entire set.

    How are bonus points and deductions calculated? The calculation for bonuses or deductions is as follows:

    (Grade + Bonus) x Weight

    (Grade - Deduction) x Weight

  • eCoinquesteCoinquest Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭
    Re: the 26-s Lincoln.

    It is rated higher than it really deserves.
    It already get a 5 bonus for being RD, but the 9 points is too high compared to the 1917 DDO ( total pop of 97 coins, only 12 in RD - 7 points and a 2 pt bonus for RD)

    My observation is it's overrated.
    Yes, agreed the 26-S is rare.
    Price guide pricing for the top 3 grades is $2500 to $ 130,000 for 63RD to 65RD

    The 1917 DDO variety is rarer than the 26-S
    Price guide pricing for the top 3 grades is $22,500 to $ 110,000 for 65RD to 67RD

    But rather than debate this.

    The observation is that both the 26-s and 1917 DDO are rare, in quite a few grades NOT just the top grade.

    Putting this in perspective.
    The Washington P/A FDI in MS66 is very common and the PCGS price guide support this as well.
    Price guide pricing for the top 3 grades is $15 MS65, $ 55 MS66 & $ 4,000 MS67

    Way too common to out rank any of the Varieties, including the Weak edge, partial edges, Dbl Edges and MELS.

    If the coin value jumps wildly from $50 or less levels to thousands and lots of coins available. It is common.
    Grade rarity in ONLY the top grade does NOT make a coin worthy of a higher point rating.


    PCGS Guidelines are as follows on weighting of sets......

    What are weights? Within a set, not all coins have the same value and rarity. Sets in the PCGS Set Registry are weighted on a 1 to 10 scale with 10 being the rarest coin and 1 being the most common. While it may be in true in some instances that a coin may be many times over 10 as rare as the most common coin in the set, the Registry keeps the scale simple so that all levels of collectors can compete.

    The Registry weighting is done by taking three things into account:

    1. The overall rarity of the coin, i.e. the rarity in all grades

    2. The rarity in the highest 2 or 3 grades

    3. The price (because this is an indication of demand and importance to collectors)

    Why are some sets not weighted? Sets may be added without weights so that collectors may begin adding their coins. Eventually, all sets will be weighted.

    How is the GPA calculated? The Weighted Grade Point Average is the grade of each item registered in the set multiplied by the weight and then summed. That sum is divided by the total number of registered coin weights.

    How is the Set Rating calculated? The Set Rating is achieved by dividing the weighted grade sum by the total sum of the weights in the entire set.

    How are bonus points and deductions calculated? The calculation for bonuses or deductions is as follows:

    (Grade + Bonus) x Weight

    (Grade - Deduction) x Weight




    Very well said. I would love to here PCGS' opinion on this.
    I vote for this set's weights to be redone!
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Re: the 26-s Lincoln.
    It is rated higher than it really deserves."

    Thank you Jim for finally addressing the point!! Whether I agree or disagree with your assessment is immaterial at this point.

    The PCGS registry (unlike the NGC registry) is unable to weigh coins differently in different grades. Hence, weights such as the 26-S Lincoln weight (or many others I have not mentioned - I just mentioned the 26-S as I know Jim collects them). Jim - do you think you are going to convince PCGS to drop the weight of the 26-S to 1 or 2 when the 65RD just sold for $100,000? Likewise, if a Wash Dollar MS69 SF is worth $2,000 as opposed to another MS69SF that is worth $75 - I have no problem personally with a 3 weight for the coin. Why not - it is entirely consistent with the way other better coins are addressed in the registry for mid-20th century registry sets. Again, try "fixing"the weight of the 26-S Lincoln cent - consistency is the key throughout the registry. I have no problem with consistent results throughout the registry.

    Consistency... and let's take that example of the MS69SF Wash Dollar worth $2,000. Let say a collector wanted to only buy the $15 version of the MS68SF coin. He gets a 3 weight for that coin as well. He loses nothing by opting to purchase the $15 coin - he gets a 3 weight on his purchase. But, the fellow who puts out $2,000 for the MS69SF coin - he gets a 3 weight on that 1 extra point. Why do I have a problem with that? He spent $1,900 more than the guy who bought a $100 MS69SF coin (say a Jefferson D). Why shouldn't he get 3 points extra for his $2,000 expenditure (and his $1,985 extra spent on that scarce MS69SF coin)? I have -0- problem with the 3 weight. In fact, it sounds fair all around to me. It's not like the guy who is buying the $15 MS68SF isn't getting a 3 weight also for his undergrade purchase.

    Reasonable men may differ ... I am not trying to fight with anyone here. Just suggesting why weighting the scarce coins higher even though there are millions of them in lower grades is a viable alternative.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • Okay - I hate to bust any bubbles, but my prior example is spot on. Here are the rules per PCGS:

    Grade Points, Set Ratings and Weighting

    After each set is registered, its "Grade Points" are determined. In unweighted sets, the grade points are the average grade of the coins in the set, plus or minus bonuses or deductions (see below).

    For weighted sets, the rarest coin in the set may have a weight of "10" and the most common coin will have a weight of "1." The grades are multiplied by the weights. That total is divided by the total number of coin weights. That gives the "Weighted Grade Point Average." The "Set Rating" is achieved by dividing the weighted grade sum by the total sum of the weights in the entire set. All sets are listed in order of their Set Rating.


    And the link: Link

    Read the rules guys. Opinions do not matter here. read the rules!! "the rarest coin in the set may have a weight of "10" and the most common coin will have a weight of "1." This has nothing to do with the individula grades. It is all about the rarity of the known specimens. The St. Gaudens follows the rules. The Presidential dollars do not.

    >>>>>>a re-weight is in order here to comply with PCGS own published rules.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The weights are fine IMHO. "Rarest" takes into account price/value and other factors. That $2,000 Wash SF I mentioned is the "rarest" and most valuable coin in MS69SF grade and the extra weight is fine IMHO.

    Again, if the ENTIRE registry gets revamped, I might have a different opinion on the subject

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • There are many truly rare & significant error coins in the Presidential series, many of which we have in our company registry. However, it seems reasonable to think that there may be a bit too much weighting going on in this set as suggested by the posts in this thread. If you look at the Sacagawea series, it doesn't give a whole lot of bonus weighting for conditional rarity. It would make sense that the Business Strike & Satin Finish Non-error coins stay at a lower 1 or 2 point weighting like shown in the Sacagawea series. The errors are up to debate though as some are truly mainstream rarities & others are very weak & partially priced in the market. Weak & Partial are great errors & we have some for sale, but maybe not as significant as their weighting would suggest. (I definitely am not trying to boost sales here as I think their weighting should be low.) After all, many other denominations have modern weak and partial strikes with very little or no attention.

    I do not wish to step on any toes for who created the weighting as it's not easy to make everyone happy, then have everyone poke at your work. I say good job to whoever started the weighting, but would like to see some changes made to the weighting. Has this weighting had any dealer or coin collector input or was it created simply by registry management? How about you Mitchell, was this your baby?

    Edited for a typo.
    Seth
  • Thank You Jim for bringing this thread up!

    image
    Seth
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I only had mild involvement with these weights after Jim sent a letter to PCGS management discussing his personal viewpoint on weights for which I was "cc'ed" on the letter (at least that is what I recall happened). I had a number of viewpoints expressed which were not adopted in these weights - for one, I personally thought a small bonus weight should be given for FDI coins (as did Jim who I believe felt even a larger weight should be given). PCGS management assessed all viewpoints from those taking the time to write to them and came up with the weighting, which, overall, I will say again, appears fair to me and consistent with other registry sets as I mentioned.

    And, Seth - you for one - I would think would be very content with a coin like the Wash P MS9SF getting more weight than say a Jefferson D MS69SF. One is a $2,000 coin and one is a $75 coin. I assume you have no problem with a 3 weight on the Wash P vs. a 1 weight on the Jeff D? No?

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • Mitch,

    Just because someone is willing to pay a premium for a higher grade coin (Wahsington MS69 SF), does not make the coin rare. I understand that you will not change your opinon here.

    I understand the price argument, however, it must be viewed across all grades, not just the top POP. Virtually any coin that has a very low pop in the highest grade will sell for a nice premium. That does not equate to a "rare" coin. For some coins, this will also be the case, but not for the business strike Presidents.

    For example, a coin with a total population of 20 will have higher prices across all grades than the Wash MS69 SF that you reference. This is becasue the coin is a "rare" coin as opposed to the Wash which e can all get buckets of. The rare coin should have a wieght assigned.

    The weighting is desinged to reward for a hard to obtain coin, not a hard to obtain grade of a plenitiful coin. All regualar run of the mill coins in the Presidental set should be weighted as 1.00. The higher weight should be reserved for the truly rare and unique coins.

    Just my opinion.........and apparently the PCGS rules on weighting also.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    fc - I thought you were in support of FDI coins getting a higher weighting in the registry (as was Jim and myself)? The entire premise of that argument is the "value" of the top pop coins - no (at least that is the way Jim presented it to management as I recall)? I am trying to be entirely consistent in my views here. But....

    If only mere "rarity" of the underlying raw coin is at the heart of the weights - then how could a FDI coin ever be worthy of a higher weight using that approach??

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • Within the complete set, the FDI could be given a bonus but not weight. The weight should be abased on overall rarity of the coin, FDI or not. I agree that an FDI in the set warrants a little bonus.

    Let's not forge the bonus sytem also.

    How about the FDI Jefferson MEL?? It should only get a little Bonus in the complete set, but maybe a high weight in the FDI set.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    fc - I am all in favor of a bonus for FDI coins (and I hope it may occur in a future reweighting). Keep in mind that these weights are only the opening weights. These will likely be reviewed and adjusted later this year IMHO. After all, what if another 5,000 Jefferson MEL coins are uncovered next week, or if 100 Wash P coins grade MS69SF next month. I love the fact that PCGS put the time in to weigh this set so early in the game. And, frankly, I sincerely doubt the weights will have much influence on the standings since many collectors have most everything anyway.

    But, this issue of addressing the valuable coins - such as the $100,000 Lincoln cent that is worth $1 in circulated grades or even a $7,500 Washington business strike coin that is worth $1 in BU - I believe there should be a consistent approach to this weighting throughout the registry. I think on that point, we all agree.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • SilverstateSilverstate Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭
    Wild point spreads are not what I want to see.

    The First Day of Issue coins should get a 1 point bonus.

    MS66 MEL Washington $ 200
    MS66 MEL FDI Washington $ 1050

    So, just a small bonus to the fact that these coins are more desirable to the collector.

    I believe the point we are digressing from is that a 1 grade point wondercoin(s) <---- :-)
    Should not get an increase in point ratings.
    If the coin is rarer than the common coins of the sets in 2 or more grades, then an increase is deserved.

    Collector demand and pricing also play a factor.
    So, therefore a bonus for FDI is totally justifiable.

    BTW: PCGS - Thanks for taking on the weighting of the set. It's a big job and once we get beyond a few revisions, it will be great.

    Lets face it. 104 coins in the complete set for two years is a monster!
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    MS66 MEL Washington $ 200
    MS66 MEL FDI Washington $ 1050

    Jim -

    MS65 MEL Wash - $100+
    MS65 MEL FDI Wash - $150+

    Hardly a difference except in top pop grade.

    Ditto on the John Adams MEL

    MS65 MEL Adams - $500+
    MS65 MEL FDI Adams - $650+

    Again, hardly any difference at all.

    ANY ARGUMENT CONCERNING A BONUS FOR FDI COINS IS GENERALLY ABOUT THE HIGHEST GRADED PIECE ONLY - PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

    Same argument - one simply can't have it both ways.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • RE: FDI

    MS65 FDI gets 1 bonus point
    MS66 - no bonus point ----

    Kind of makes the 65 worth the same as a 66 now doesn't it?
    With a two point bonus, it becomes more valuable in the set.
  • SilverstateSilverstate Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭


    << <i>MS66 MEL Washington $ 200
    MS66 MEL FDI Washington $ 1050

    Jim -

    MS65 MEL Wash - $100+
    MS65 MEL FDI Wash - $150+

    Hardly a difference except in top pop grade.

    Ditto on the John Adams MEL

    MS65 MEL Adams - $500+
    MS65 MEL FDI Adams - $650+

    Again, hardly any difference at all.

    ANY ARGUMENT CONCERNING A BONUS FOR FDI COINS IS GENERALLY ABOUT THE HIGHEST GRADED PIECE ONLY - PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

    Same argument - one simply can't have it both ways.

    Wondercoin >>



    You were citing the undergrade values.

    The Adams MELS
    NON FDI (price guide values)
    MS64 $ 400
    MS65 $ 650
    MS66 $ 1350

    Adams MELS
    FDI
    MS64 $ 550 - 750 (past Sales)
    MS65 $ 1200-1500 ( past sales )
    MS66 $ 10,000 + (I know personally on this one! :-) )

    So, my point is that FDI coins deserve a bonus point.
    Real numbers and real dollars have spoken on the price differences.

    This can be shown on numerous coins.
    All of the varieties and the business strikes in FDI command a premium.


  • << <i>I only had mild involvement with these weights after Jim sent a letter to PCGS management discussing his personal viewpoint on weights for which I was "cc'ed" on the letter (at least that is what I recall happened). I had a number of viewpoints expressed which were not adopted in these weights - for one, I personally thought a small bonus weight should be given for FDI coins (as did Jim who I believe felt even a larger weight should be given). PCGS management assessed all viewpoints from those taking the time to write to them and came up with the weighting, which, overall, I will say again, appears fair to me and consistent with other registry sets as I mentioned.

    And, Seth - you for one - I would think would be very content with a coin like the Wash P MS9SF getting more weight than say a Jefferson D MS69SF. One is a $2,000 coin and one is a $75 coin. I assume you have no problem with a 3 weight on the Wash P vs. a 1 weight on the Jeff D? No?

    Wondercoin >>



    Mitch, thank you for the fair disclosure.

    Weighting as far as I can tell happens to be for limited coins in the Sacagawea series & not based on conditional rarity. Conditional rarity is rewarded by a grade point increase. Some grade point changes have greater expense than others. Unless we're talking about a complete workover of the PCGS weighting system, the business strikes & satin finish coins should be a 1 or a 2 just like Sacagaweas are. I think Frank mentioned that they should all be 1s which is also a fair idea. Further, the errors are not few & far inbetween, so having any with more than a couple point bonus sounds a bit far fetched. Maybe some of the coins with very low populations would qualify for this & on a sparing basis for any with a weight of more than 2. Keep in mind that 10,000 spent on conditional rarity shouldn't be significantly trumped by 10,000 spent on weak & partial errors. I can tell you that I don't charge as much for top pop Satin Finish weak edge lettering as I do for top pop Satin Finish non errors where the total # error coins is relatively small to begin with. If you think the weak/partials deserve a significant bonus, then maybe I'm offering them too cheaply?
    Seth


  • << <i>So, my point is that FDI coins deserve a bonus point.
    Real numbers and real dollars have spoken on the price differences. >>



    Jim I very much respect your idea here & that you've worked hard on your collection of FDI coins. I must point out however that if an FDI coin & a non-FDI coin are cracked out & held next to each other, they're worth the same amount of money. Giving a higher weight is not necessary when they have their own registry set separate from non-FDI coins.
    Seth
  • SilverstateSilverstate Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>So, my point is that FDI coins deserve a bonus point.
    Real numbers and real dollars have spoken on the price differences. >>



    Jim I very much respect your idea here & that you've worked hard on your collection of FDI coins. I must point out however that if an FDI coin & a non-FDI coin are cracked out & held next to each other, they're worth the same amount of money. Giving a higher weight is not necessary when they have their own registry set separate from non-FDI coins. >>



    Seth,

    Do you get more money for FDI coins than non-FDI coins in the marketplace?
    Some more value is placed on the FDI coins.
    How much can vary from coin to coin.

    Maybe it has not been as evident in the business strikes.....

    Yes, I have paid moon money for FDI varieties versus non FDI varieties.

    Just seems to be the way it is. Not many new varieties since Monroe.
    The mint has refined it's quality control systems.

    Great comments.


    image
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Unless we're talking about a complete workover of the PCGS weighting system"

    Sounds like a plan. Let's roll up our sleeves and get to work. No reason to perpetuate erroneous weights.

    And, Seth you have pointed out (as I did) the INCONSISTENCY of the position that FDI should get extra bonuses and/or weights, but, top pop killer coins (like a 26-S Lincoln cent) shouldn't. Only difference is you believe neither should get extra weight, while I believe BOTH should. Reasonable men may differ, but, it is one or the other - not picking and choosing and "cherrypicking" weights.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,470 ✭✭✭✭
    Not to throw a wrench in the works but price has as much value in determining weight as does rarity.

    From the Frequently Asked Questions page for the Set Registry:

    ---------------------------------------------

    What are weights? Within a set, not all coins have the same value and rarity. Sets in the PCGS Set Registry are weighted on a 1 to 10 scale with 10 being the rarest coin and 1 being the most common. While it may be in true in some instances that a coin may be many times over 10 as rare as the most common coin in the set, the Registry keeps the scale simple so that all levels of collectors can compete.

    The Registry weighting is done by taking three things into account:

    1. The overall rarity of the coin, i.e. the rarity in all grades

    2. The rarity in the highest 2 or 3 grades

    3. The price (because this is an indication of demand and importance to collectors)

    ---------------------------------------------

    IMO, this is the primary reason for the 4.00 on the Washington and Adams coins. If the prices were not so outreageous in going from that MS66 to that MS67 on the Washington and Adams coins, perhaps the weights would not be so "extravagant".

    After all, $10,000 for that non-FDI John Adams in MS67 has got to say something right?

    However, these are all "registry prices" paid by "registry players" in an ongoing set. Bottom Floor folks if you will. Give this another 5 years or so and those prices could very well come down at which point, perhaps PCGS will have a better handle on how to actually weight these.

    In other words, I don't think the weights really mean much at this point in time since it is way too early to assign rarity weights on anything other than value seeing as how they did make 224.5 million of the Adams dollars. The coins are only "conditional grade rarities" which could change on the next submission.
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • been reading this thread and i really dont have much to add cuz i dont collect or participate in the registry.lol....... but i would like to ask why does pcgs allow forum ppl to have "mild involvement" in the weighting of the registry. it makes sense to have input from the collectors of that series but they should have posted an announcement or something here first. jmho

    and i after looking at the sac weighting i like it even tho the flaming eagle should be included too!
    YN Sac collector!!!

    To legit to quit!
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,470 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>been reading this thread and i really dont have much to add cuz i dont collect or participate in the registry.lol....... but i would like to ask why does pcgs allow forum ppl to have "mild involvement" in the weighting of the registry. it makes sense to have input from the collectors of that series but they should have posted an announcement or something here first. jmho

    and i after looking at the sac weighting i like it even tho the flaming eagle should be included too! >>



    The forum ppl speaking are registry participants and registry participants have a "say" simply because they do partipate. That "say" is limited to what coins to include in major and complete varieties and has nothing to do with what coins PCGS attributes or does not attribute.

    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • SilverstateSilverstate Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭


    << <i>been reading this thread and i really dont have much to add cuz i dont collect or participate in the registry.lol....... but i would like to ask why does pcgs allow forum ppl to have "mild involvement" in the weighting of the registry. it makes sense to have input from the collectors of that series but they should have posted an announcement or something here first. jmho

    and i after looking at the sac weighting i like it even tho the flaming eagle should be included too! >>



    I too would like to see the flaming eagle variety added to the Sac Dollars. It is only a matter of time before we get weak edge varieties. The Flaming Eagle is a nicer variety than those will be.



  • << <i>Do you get more money for FDI coins than non-FDI coins in the marketplace?
    Some more value is placed on the FDI coins.
    How much can vary from coin to coin. >>



    Jim,

    I haven't been grading them non-FDI lately because they're not what people want, but you already know the FDI coins tend command a higher price. For non errors it's the standard to sell FDI as a dealer & non-FDI coins are "hard to sell". For errors, the prices surprise me because they're sometime significantly different as you pointed out. By my attitude towards paying a premium for FDI on an error coin, you can tell I'm not lining up to buy one. So on the same token I wouldn't suggest that First Strike, Presidential Holders, or Signature Series Proof Presidential Coins should have any different weight. They do sell for different amounts though which shows collector preference. I would have to say that the spread between FDI & Non-FDI on the errors will close over time.

    I hold my opinion that the coins are worth the same if you were to hold them raw & submit them for grading again. Special labels are very collectable & I really like them and recommend them, but that doesn't make them "weigh" more.

    Seth


  • << <i>"Unless we're talking about a complete workover of the PCGS weighting system"

    Sounds like a plan. Let's roll up our sleeves and get to work. No reason to perpetuate erroneous weights.

    And, Seth you have pointed out (as I did) the INCONSISTENCY of the position that FDI should get extra bonuses and/or weights, but, top pop killer coins (like a 26-S Lincoln cent) shouldn't. Only difference is you believe neither should get extra weight, while I believe BOTH should. Reasonable men may differ, but, it is one or the other - not picking and choosing and "cherrypicking" weights.

    Wondercoin >>



    I don't agree that the prior weighing system is necessarily wrong. The grade makes a higher score just the same. Weighing is a great idea for showing the incredible rarity of some coins over others that aren't the plain vanilla. If the system were to be as complicated as the Presidential Weighing suggests, I think there would be much civil unrest over who's doing the "weighing". If it's kept simple, then that eliminates the idea of "cherrypicking" weights as you say.

    I vote to keep it simple & fair with less subjectivity than the posts on this thread suggest.
    Seth
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lee summed it up nicely and accurately.

    Saccollector - Surprising that you question "mild" participation even after I pointed out that came about only after another collector politiced PCGS management in writing for weights and "cc'ed" me on the letter. Frankly, I am too busy these days to dedicate too much time and effort to registry weights. Been there - done that - I assisted with the development of most of the modern coin weightings (1932-date) for NGC when they launched their registry. That was a weight for every single modern coin in every single grade - thousands upon thousands of weights and the better part of 6 months of my work (and quite frankly, the only proper way to address the very debate we are having here - a different weight for each grade as coins are conditional rare in certain grades and quite common in others).

    That said, I assist where requested, whenever I can. Always happy to help the grading services. I would love to see consistency throughout the registry

    Wondercoin

    .



    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • SilverstateSilverstate Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭
    SacCollector-
    "Particpation" in the forums & registry by collectors is pretty common with PCGS. First Strike options were removed from collectors club members for a short while, then active collectors got PCGS to listen and make some changes. Not all things requested get attention, but PCGS does a pretty good job at listening to the masses. So, If you have suggestions, by all means...Post a thread on the forums. They are there for collectors that participate in the registry or not.

    PCGS is a great and solid TPG !!
  • DatentypeDatentype Posts: 1,677 ✭✭✭
    Those weights are stupid!image
  • I agree with Henry Kissenger
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Actually, the PCGS weights are CORRECT based upon the system PCGS is currently using. For anyone who truly cares about this Pres $1 registry set (as I do) (and is not just simply stirring up the pot with their comments), please call me anytime at (949) 394-7122 and I will gladly explain why PCGS got it right. After the call, you can even post to this thread and state whether you are in agreement with the weights or not based upon our discussion. You can even state after the call that "wondercoin has lost his mind" if you truly believe it, BUT, the only condition is that you need to make the call with an open mind to hear the facts behind the weights.

    Phone lines are now open.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • Post it here for all to read. No need for a phone call to hear it.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Frank - I am too busy to deal with BS.

    You want to call me - fine.

    You don't - no problem.

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • SilverstateSilverstate Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭
    So far as far as I can locate on the registry sets.

    There is nowhere to be found coins getting more than a 1 or 2 registry weight rating when the pricing goes from $30-50 to $ 4000 -10,000+ from one grade to the next.

    EXCEPT, the Presidential Dollars.
    Looks like a new standard.

    Bottomline: How can a MS66 Washington or John Adams MS66 which can be purchased for a small price over grading fees get a set weight of 4 ( or 264 total weight)?
    And If one has a John Adams MS66 Missing Edge Lettering that have been trading for $1200-1500 a coin be weighted EXACTLY the same?
    Then there is the tough to locate Jefferson MEL in any grade is tough. My pop 3 Jefferson MEL MS66 FDI, which cost me dearly! ( More than any Washington or Adams in MS67) is also worth only 4 points for a total weight of 264?

    Yes, I am a strong advocate for weighting but as it is now. All coins could just as well have a 1 rating as before.

    I have seen the NGC system and it rating system is totally different. Since, the majority of registry coins have a few top pop coins for every coin/mintmark out there.....Do they all need a higher rating?

    IF value is that big a part of the weighting, then First Day Issue Coins need a bonus as well. Since many of these coins sell for multiples of the price of the blue label versions.

    Not too sure how to fix this, but I see imbalances on many of the coins based on actual rarity in all grades.
    Major errors don't seem very rare when you look at the weighting as it is now.

    If you look at the weighting of the Sac Dollars and If you knew nothing about them.
    You could learn really quickly that the "Cheerios Dollar" is VERY important and has a rating of 10
    The "Wounded Eagle" has a rating of 5 and is still significant.

    Shouldn't the Presidential Dollar set weighting reflect that as well.
    Looks like the MEL's are nothing special at all, nor the Doubled Edge Lettering varieties.

    We all need to stand back and not base this ONLY on price on a select few coins.
    Some I have paid a lot for that have no value posted. In fact I've paid more than Washington or Adams MS67 prices for a few varieties.
    But if it is a total pop of 7 coins, is it rare? More rare than the top pop population of a Washington or John Adams? I believe

    IMHO - The weighting does not reflect the set accurately.

    Just for the record - The weighting does not really affect anyones sets, since you can buy the undergrade for lunch money and only be down from 1 to 4 points max.
    Less if you buy blue label coins versus the more costly First Day of Issue labeled coins.
  • Mitch - no BS here. If you can explain "why PCGS got it right," then do it for everyone to read and debate.
  • FcPowell: i agree totally!
    no reason to make a call. its to easy to "convince" when its one-on-one. JMHO

    Wondercoin: please, by all means, post on HERE, why PCGS got it right with those weights.

    personally, i feel they should be weighted as, Silverstate said, and reflect the importance/rarity/price or whatever like the sac dollars.

    i am stirring the pot but since this is a PUBLIC forum i will share my opinion at will.

    HW time!! lol
    YN Sac collector!!!

    To legit to quit!
  • SilverstateSilverstate Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭


    << <i>"Unless we're talking about a complete workover of the PCGS weighting system"

    Sounds like a plan. Let's roll up our sleeves and get to work. No reason to perpetuate erroneous weights.

    And, Seth you have pointed out (as I did) the INCONSISTENCY of the position that FDI should get extra bonuses and/or weights, but, top pop killer coins (like a 26-S Lincoln cent) shouldn't. Only difference is you believe neither should get extra weight, while I believe BOTH should. Reasonable men may differ, but, it is one or the other - not picking and choosing and "cherrypicking" weights.

    Wondercoin >>



    Mitch,
    You have a lot of experience in this and have put in a lot of time with the NGC system. Since at this point PCGS is going with a different system.

    I'm doing this to open up the debate and lets face it. The 26-S lincoln is rare and I was only suggesting that we can all find an example the will support or discredit the weighting. The 26-S Lincoln is rare in many of the top grades and deserves a high weighting.

    I would suggest the following to start this thread in a constructive direction.

    I have not suggested any weights before........So here we go.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Business Strikes & Satin coins - 1 or 2 points

    Weak Edge Varieties - 3 or 4 points

    Partial Edge Lettering - 5 or 6 points

    Double Edge Lettering - 8 or 9 points

    Missing Edge Lettering - 8, 9 or 10 points

    And

    Bonus for First Day Issue - 1 point
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    This would allow for the higher end of the scale for more scarce coins.
    Washington, John Adams would get the higher weight of 2
    Some of the better Satins would get 2 points as well.

    I'm not looking for a complicated system but, this is based on rarity for the varieties and importance to the collector as well.
    The bonus for the FDI coins gives a small weight compensation for the FDI coin but not too much either.
    This will help scores of those that have spent a few bucks on FDI coins since there is collector demand for them.

    OK, What do you guys think?
  • eCoinquesteCoinquest Posts: 1,485 ✭✭✭
    Jim, A+++ on the weights, seems reasonable. PCGS are you listening??
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Jim: It's not just a 26-S Lincoln cent. Heck, as I recall even the 11-S has some huge weight as well and is a $50 coin in lower grade. And, on and on and on. If you use the Lincoln cent chart as your model, you will easily see why the Pres $1 weights are entirely consistent with the approach.

    Now, as for Sacs - they are 8+ years old and PCGS was comfortable using the 10 point scale for that series, but, even still, a number of registry adjustments are in order IMHO. But, don't fear - I have no intention of writing PCGS to make the changes. If I get "cc'ed" on a letter to PCGS concerning Sacs (or contacted due to a letter on the subject) I may surely offer my suggestions, but, otherwise, I am just too busy to deal with weights these days.

    Back to the Pres $1 weights - you will notice not a single coin exceeds "4" weight as I recall. And, that also makes perfect sense to me as the set is too new just yet. It is not 8+ years old like Sacs -it is about 23 months old. PCGS has intelligently reserved judgment on what the 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10 weight coins may turn out to be in the future. Maybe by next year, coins can earn a 5 weight or a 6 or higher weight. But, with all due respect Jim, I highly doubt the 8 or 9 point coins will ever be the $75 (quite) common "doubled edge lettering" coins.

    Need to run... a board member wants to talk weights.

    Wondercoin




    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • SilverstateSilverstate Posts: 1,537 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Jim: It's not just a 26-S Lincoln cent. Heck, as I recall even the 11-S has some huge weight as well and is a $50 coin in lower grade. And, on and on and on. If you use the Lincoln cent chart as your model, you will easily see why the Pres $1 weights are entirely consistent with the approach.

    Now, as for Sacs - they are 8+ years old and PCGS was comfortable using the 10 point scale for that series, but, even still, a number of registry adjustments are in order IMHO. But, don't fear - I have no intention of writing PCGS to make the changes. If I get "cc'ed" on a letter to PCGS concerning Sacs (or contacted due to a letter on the subject) I may surely offer my suggestions, but, otherwise, I am just too busy to deal with weights these days.

    Back to the Pres $1 weights - you will notice not a single coin exceeds "4" weight as I recall. And, that also makes perfect sense to me as the set is too new just yet. It is not 8+ years old like Sacs -it is about 23 months old. PCGS has intelligently reserved judgment on what the 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 or 10 weight coins may turn out to be in the future. Maybe by next year, coins can earn a 5 weight or a 6 or higher weight. But, with all due respect Jim, I highly doubt the 8 or 9 point coins will ever be the $75 (quite) common "doubled edge lettering" coins.

    Need to run... a board member wants to talk weights.

    Wondercoin >>



    Well if the Doubled Edge coins are so common.
    It's not only price that determines weighting.
    I'm not sold on 8 or 9 for Dbl edge lettering.
    I believe it is a significant error. Maybe it deserves less.
    The "Wounded Eagle" can be purchased in MS66 for $ 1600 not too long ago on Teletrade I noticed.
    PCGS price guide says you can get a low grade Wounded Eagle for $ 120.00 and it still gets a 5 point weighting for its signifigance.

    The weighting I believe is not meant ONLY for high dollar coin signifigance but rarity and importance to the collector.
    The Doubled Edge coin has been deemed a Major variety by the Presidential Registry Collectors, in October 2007.
    This coin deserves more than a 3 rating, if it is a Major variety, even if it is common in lower grades.
    Shouldn't the weight reflect to anyone starting the Presidential set, which coins have importance to the set.

    So, If (Adams Dbl Edge Lettering) are remain a 3 rating, then by all means the Washington's & John Adams (many are available for $10 or less in undergrades) by the wheelbarrow needs to be rated Less than 3.

    Just for fun.
    Add up the value of the

    Adams P Overlapped NON-FDI PCGS prices x pop of all of the coins
    AND
    Washington P/A FDI prices x pop of all of the coins.

    What do you get?

    $ 407,375.00 POP Value for the Adams Overlapped (DBL Edged Lettering) NON-FDI
    And
    $ 106,340.00 POP Value for the Washington P/A FDI Business Strikes

    Looks like the masses have spoken to me on what has value & the FDI Overlapped coins are worth a lot more than the MS66 and lower non-FDI Washington Dollars.

    I will save you guys the boring math on this one.

    Summary of the Adams Overlapped NON-FDI vs Washington P/A FDI

    Adams P Overlapped Edge Lettering NON-FDI has 2755 coins graded @ average per coin of $ 147.87 each
    vs
    Washington P/A FDI Business strike has 2209 coins graded @ average per coin of $ 48.14 each

    Looks like the

    << <i>(quite) common "doubled edge lettering" coins. >>

    as you say are more then 3 times as rare as the MORE Common Washington Business strike on the average.
    I do not disagree that the top pops of the Washington are hard coins to locate and pricey, but across the entire grade & price range of each, the Dbl Edge Lettering is the rarer coin.

    That was a fun exercise. I ran this on an excel spreadsheet but wasn't sure how to transfer it over.

    PCGS does not have to use the whole 10 point range now.
    If they used an 8 point spread for now. The weighting could be more balanced.
    However, squeezing it all into 4 points does not seem to satisfy the needs of the set.
    Also the fact is that the Presidential may be only 2 years old but it has 104 coins versus the 30 coins in the SAC collection.

    Coin weights can be downgraded or upgraded, but they should attempt to start off on the right foot.

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lee - Enjoyed the conversation tonight. And, you are correct that the MS Ike Dollar series closely tracks the treatment (and weights) of these Pres $1's by PCGS. For example, a 76-D Ike Ty1 gets a weight of 6 and a 76-P Ty 1 Ike a weight of 8. Yet, these coins are worth $1.50 in Choice Unc. grade. Why a weight of 8? Because the top pop MS66 / MS67 coins are conditionally rare. Meanwhile, scarce Ike varieties worth hundreds of dollars in Choice Unc. get lower weights.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
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