I think I ripped this coin at FUN Heritage Auction......bargains can still be had.

bidask

Lot 3949 of Heritage FUN auction as described by the cataloguer:

1802 $1 Wide Date AU55 NGC. CAC. B-5, BB-242, R.5. Along with B-9, B-5 is the rarest business strike 1802 dollar. Aside from the uncollectible novodel proof, B-5 is the most valuable variety of the date. This is because it receives its own Guide Book listing, as the 'Wide Normal Date.' B-2, B-3, and B-9 also have wide dates, but those three marriages are 1802/1 overdates.
Rich golden-brown, olive-green, dove-gray, and powder-blue toning embraces this well defined and partly lustrous Choice AU dollar. The surfaces are smooth aside from faint marks on the right obverse field. Neither major grading service has certified an Uncirculated example, which clarifies the importance of the present piece. Census: 2 in 55, 0 finer (11/08).
Ex: Auction '86 (RARCOA, 7/1986), lot 736.
From The Deb-Ann Collection

PCGS has one graded AU 55, none finer. That is a total of 3 coins for the grade, none finer.......

Coin Facts.com states:

1802/1
BB-231 - Bolender 1 - Very Scarce
BB-232 - Bolender 4 - Very Scarce
BB-233 - Bolender 2 - Very Scarce
BB-234 - Bolender 3 - Scarce
BB-235 - Bolender 9 - Very Rare
Normal Date
BB-241 - Bolender 6 - Very Common
BB-242 - Bolender 5 - Rare
Proof Novodel
BB-302 - Bolender 8 - Extremely Rare

The coin I bought has been in a collection for 23 years.

coindeuce

"Knowledge is king" Or was it ...ka-ching!

DUIGUY

HOLY JASPERS, Ghost Man!!

Swampboy

It's a beauty.
May YOU enjoy it a long, long time.

Placid

I looked at the pcgs online pops and it shows B-5 BB-242 Wide Date total graded 6. Highest graded au58.

Thats one of those things where many coins were graded by pcgs before they did the variety attribution so you dont know what the ones that are listed under the plain 1802 census are.

Overton
Very Scarce is R5 is 31-75 known.
Rare is R7 4-12 known.

Anyways nice looking coin be it a r5 or r7.

Elcontador

<< <i>I looked at the pcgs online pops and it shows B-5 BB-242 Wide Date total graded 6. Highest graded au58.

Thats one of those things where many coins were graded by pcgs before they did the variety attribution so you dont know what the ones that are listed under the plain 1802 census are.

Overton
Very Scarce is R5 is 31-75 known.
Rare is R7 4-12 known.

Anyways nice looking coin be it a r5 or r7. >>


Question - What sort of premium are people willing to pay for Bust $ varieties over type in this grade? Also, did you or a trusted rep actually see the coin and satisfy yourself that it indeed is a 55? I ask because there is a "cottage industry" when it comes to grading AU Bust $s. Let's face it; do you always agree with the TPGs re a Bust $ is 50 or 53, 53 or 55, 55 or 58, etc.? I don't.

bidask

<< <i>I looked at the pcgs online pops and it shows B-5 BB-242 Wide Date total graded 6. Highest graded au58.

Thats one of those things where many coins were graded by pcgs before they did the variety attribution so you dont know what the ones that are listed under the plain 1802 census are.

Overton
Very Scarce is R5 is 31-75 known.
Rare is R7 4-12 known.

Anyways nice looking coin be it a r5 or r7. >>

Ahh, I stand corrected on the pcgs 58 speciman. So there is the one PCGS 58 and 2 NGC 55. None finer.

I checked Heritage auction records going back to 1995 and do not see any for sale in the AU 55 or 58 category....so I think this coin really was important.

Fletcher

Dude ... that coin is smokin' hot. You officially suck!

Fletcher

PS - Did you notice that it was Ex RARCOA from '86?

bidask

<< <i>

<< <i>I looked at the pcgs online pops and it shows B-5 BB-242 Wide Date total graded 6. Highest graded au58.

Thats one of those things where many coins were graded by pcgs before they did the variety attribution so you dont know what the ones that are listed under the plain 1802 census are.

Overton
Very Scarce is R5 is 31-75 known.
Rare is R7 4-12 known.

Anyways nice looking coin be it a r5 or r7. >>


Question - What sort of premium are people willing to pay for Bust $ varieties over type in this grade? Also, did you or a trusted rep actually see the coin and satisfy yourself that it indeed is a 55? I ask because there is a "cottage industry" when it comes to grading AU Bust $s. Let's face it; do you always agree with the TPGs re a Bust $ is 50 or 53, 53 or 55, 55 or 58, etc.? I don't. >>

This particular coin was last auctioned by Rarcoa in 1986 and had been put away in this collection ( Deb Ann) till the current Fun Heritage auction.

It is CAC stickered ( I believe this was one among a group of coins submitted by Heritage before the auction) and yes I saw it in hand and think the surfaces were original..

bidask

Will you guys award me my first official "you suck" award?

Russ

<< <i>Overton
Very Scarce is R5 is 31-75 known.
Rare is R7 4-12 known. >>



Does Overton use a different rarity scale than the Sheldon that most everybody else uses?

Russ, NCNE

bidask

<< <i>PS - Did you notice that it was Ex RARCOA from '86? >>

Yes, I thought everyone else would too.......and thanks for the vote of "you suck".

bidask

<< <i>

<< <i>Overton
Very Scarce is R5 is 31-75 known.
Rare is R7 4-12 known. >>



Does Overton use a different rarity scale than the Sheldon that most everybody else uses?

Russ, NCNE >>

PCGS recognizes Bollender here

Placid

<< <i>

<< <i>Overton
Very Scarce is R5 is 31-75 known.
Rare is R7 4-12 known. >>



Does Overton use a different rarity scale than the Sheldon that most everybody else uses?

Russ, NCNE >>



Same.

Russ

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Overton
Very Scarce is R5 is 31-75 known.
Rare is R7 4-12 known. >>



Does Overton use a different rarity scale than the Sheldon that most everybody else uses?

Russ, NCNE >>



Same. >>



Sheldon, R5 is rare and R7 is extremely rare.

Russ, NCNE

abitofthisabitofthat

I hope that you enjoy your purchase. I personally have found that die varieties do not get much of a premium for Bust Dollars, even if they are R4 or R5. Not many folks collect this series by die variety, and they all tend to trade as type.

bidask

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>PS - Did you notice that it was Ex RARCOA from '86? >>

Yes, I thought everyone else would too.......and thanks for the vote of "you suck".

>>



What is the significance of ex- RARCOA '86? >>

To me the significance is that with only 1 pcgs 58 speciman and 2 NGC 55's...( with none finer) this may have been the first auction record perhaps since 1986 of this condition or better. Heritage records only goes back to 1995 and they don't show any in this grade.

This particular coin of the 3 finest known specimans was put away for 23 years apparently. It is what some dealers might term....'fresh' as it had not seen the light of day for a long time.

Placid

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>

<< <i>Overton
Very Scarce is R5 is 31-75 known.
Rare is R7 4-12 known. >>



Does Overton use a different rarity scale than the Sheldon that most everybody else uses?

Russ, NCNE >>



Same. >>



Sheldon, R5 is rare and R7 is extremely rare.

Russ, NCNE >>




Hmm...I just looked at the numbers. Not the description.
I copied it from a post here a few years back.


Overton Rarity Ratings:

R8 2-3 Known Nearly Unique
R7 4-12 Rare, with only a few specimens existing
R6 13-30 Extremely Scarce, infrequent appearances at large shows or major auctions
R5 31-75 Very Scarce, a few examples will appear at large shows or auctions across a year
R4 76-200 Scarce, may or may not be available at larger shows
R3 201-500 Tough Date, limited number of examples at a large show
R2 500-1250 Better Date, generally available at most shows but in limited quantities
R1 1250+ Common

ChrisRx

Your coin:

Your link.

Edited to add:

I totally dig it

Longacre

291fifth is right-- the bloodbath is upon us, my friends, the bloodbath is upon us.

Jsayre

R1, R5, R20. Rarity aside, that coin is spectacular! Congratulations

Russ

<< <i>Overton Rarity Ratings:

R8 2-3 Known Nearly Unique
R7 4-12 Rare, with only a few specimens existing
R6 13-30 Extremely Scarce, infrequent appearances at large shows or major auctions
R5 31-75 Very Scarce, a few examples will appear at large shows or auctions across a year
R4 76-200 Scarce, may or may not be available at larger shows
R3 201-500 Tough Date, limited number of examples at a large show
R2 500-1250 Better Date, generally available at most shows but in limited quantities
R1 1250+ Common >>



If that's what Overton uses, they aren't using the Sheldon scale.

Russ, NCNE

bidask

<< <i>Your coin:

Your link. >>

Thank you for the link, .....notice the coin slab does not have the variety on the holder. I think it may have been overlooked by others. I just read the description by the cataloguer and got curious.

Although I am not a Bollender bust dollar variety collector I think there are other collectors out there who are. The moral of the story for me is that I am going to start using PCGS variety service if I think I got something special. I have not used it before . It costs an extra 15 dollars. That is what I love about this hobby, I never stop learning.

jdillane

Very nice. So, a rip? What's the hammer, with the juice?

bidask

<< <i>Very nice. So, a rip? What's the hammer, with the juice? >>

$11,000 plus the juice.

bidask

<< <i>Again my question that I asked has to do with the significance of the Ex RARCOA '86, as in who was the seller in this auction? >>

Don't know.

Again, the buyer held this coin a long time. They may not have known what they had either.

But Bolender ( spelled with one L) is the most significant source on bust dollars as referenced here

Placid

Earlydollars.org has a picture of the pcgs au58.
Not the greatest picture thou.

bidask

<< <i>Earlydollars.org has a picture of the pcgs au58.
Not the greatest picture thou. >>

Hmmmm....based upon the pictures which coin do you like better?

MikeInFL

That's a cool coin, to be sure. But a bargain? Please explain your logic. Thanks....Mike

p.s. congrats on the coin!

Placid

From the pictures for me its a tie. I like the obv. on yours better and the reverse on the 58 better.

bidask

<< <i>That's a cool coin, to be sure. But a bargain? Please explain your logic. Thanks....Mike

p.s. congrats on the coin! >>

I base my logic on the fact that until now this essentially top condition census variety has not come up for auction based upon Heritage archives.

I also think there are Bolender bust dollar collectors that may have missed this since the variety was not on the slab but only in the cataloguer's description and the history he gave.

I really don't know for sure how important this coin is to bust dollar variety collectors....maybe it is not a big deal but I will defer to the cataloguer.

TomB

Is there any reason to believe this coin has been off the market for 23-years? Obviously, a prior auction sale record is included in the lot description, as is the most recent "pedigree", but there is nothing to indicate that the coin sold at Auction '86 RARCOA and went directly into the most recent collection. Additionally, I would be mighty careful about reading rarities into these issues based upon distribution in NGC and PCGS slabs since so many certified pieces are unattributed. This means that it might be condition census for the attributed, certified population, but not necessarily for all extant coins of this die marriage. This might be similar to RE halves where so many Reiver numbers (JR) are considered R7 or R8 when in reality they are far more common. However, it might be more similar to FHs, DBHs and CBHs where the Overton numbers (O) are much more precise relative to one another. Regardless, it looks like it might be a nice coin, you apparently viewed it in-hand and liked it very much and obviously you are happy with the purchase.

bidask

<< <i>Is there any reason to believe this coin has been off the market for 23-years? Obviously, a prior auction sale record is included in the lot description, as is the most recent "pedigree", but there is nothing to indicate that the coin sold at Auction '86 RARCOA and went directly into the most recent collection. Additionally, I would be mighty careful about reading rarities into these issues based upon distribution in NGC and PCGS slabs since so many certified pieces are unattributed. This means that it might be condition census for the attributed, certified population, but not necessarily for all extant coins of this die marriage. This might be similar to RE halves where so many Reiver numbers (JR) are considered R7 or R8 when in reality they are far more common. However, it might be more similar to FHs, DBHs and CBHs where the Overton numbers (O) are much more precise relative to one another. Regardless, it looks like it might be a nice coin, you apparently viewed it in-hand and liked it very much and obviously you are happy with the purchase. >>

I never personally used the word rare, but the publishers of CoinFacts.com do.

That is a good point about when you said " be mighty careful about reading rarities into these issues based upon distribution in NGC and PCGS slabs since so many certified pieces are unattributed. "

I am certainly no expert in this area and although the Bolender books have been out along time for collectors to reference, PCGS and perhaps NGC only in the last few years got behind the variety thing.

Tom, what is your thoughts on the number of variety specialists among bust dollar collectors? How big a deal, or not, is it to collect bust dollars by variety?

bidask

<< <i>Earlydollars.org has a picture of the pcgs au58.
Not the greatest picture thou. >>



Here is a better picture of the pcgs 58...it resides in the number 1 registry set of bust dollars of
Dr R. Hesselgesser.

Nysoto

Overton uses a very slightly modified Sheldon scale. To clarify:

R.8 1-3 known
R.7 4-12 extremely rare
R.6 13-30 very rare
R.5 31-80 rare
R.4 81-200 very scarce
R.3 201-500 scarce
R.2 501-1000 slightly uncommon
R.1 1001+ common

Overton uses periods between R and the number for rarity ratings and varieties, rather than dashes (R.3 vrs R-3).

I agree with TomB, do not rely on pops for variety rarity as they have slabbed many without attributing, also the rarity ratings consider all examples including problem coins. The ED rarity ratings may not be as accurate as early copper or half dollars, the last JRCS ED census should have the most current rarity ratings.

It looks like a nice coin, probably within condition census for the variety (top 5). There are far fewer ED variety collectors than all other bust denominations except early gold, because of their cost.

For half dollars, an R.5 CBH will sell for a very strong premium (multiples over type), an R.5 DBH will sell for a small premium (sometimes none), unless an interesting variety, and an R.5 flowing hair half will not sell for a premium (usually), as only a handful of people collect FH halves by variety and there are enough R.5's to go around.

sonoranmonsoon

I liked the coin also. I had it on my watch list until the end. I decided not to bid on it, as I was going after several coins and felt I was going to win a few more than I expected. It was tough, but I decided to drop that one. Only so much money to go around. Anyway....Congradulations! It is a nice coin, and one that is not likely to come around very often.

ColonialCoinUnion

There were a lot of nice coins in all categories from that Deb-Ann Collection consignment . . .

abitofthisabitofthat

<< <i>I base my logic on the fact that until now this essentially top condition census variety has not come up for auction based upon Heritage archives.

I also think there are Bolender bust dollar collectors that may have missed this since the variety was not on the slab but only in the cataloguer's description and the history he gave.

I really don't know for sure how important this coin is to bust dollar variety collectors....maybe it is not a big deal but I will defer to the cataloguer. >>



It may be unwise to defer to the cataloguer, as their job is to market a coin. While it may be true that it is a rare variety, that does not automatically translate into a premium over type. Anyone who is a serious die variety collector for a coin like this would not have relied on the attribution on the holder. In fact, they would likely not rely on the attribution of the cataloguer either, but attribute the coin themselves.

It looks to be a nice coin, but IMO all Bust Dollars are type coins, unless maybe it is R7.

bidask

<< <i>

<< <i>I base my logic on the fact that until now this essentially top condition census variety has not come up for auction based upon Heritage archives.

I also think there are Bolender bust dollar collectors that may have missed this since the variety was not on the slab but only in the cataloguer's description and the history he gave.

I really don't know for sure how important this coin is to bust dollar variety collectors....maybe it is not a big deal but I will defer to the cataloguer. >>



It may be unwise to defer to the cataloguer, as their job is to market a coin. While it may be true that it is a rare variety, that does not automatically translate into a premium over type. Anyone who is a serious die variety collector for a coin like this would not have relied on the attribution on the holder. In fact, they would likely not rely on the attribution of the cataloguer either, but attribute the coin themselves.

It looks to be a nice coin, but IMO all Bust Dollars are type coins, unless maybe it is R7. >>

I use to think that way about not distinguishing varieities among bust dollars.

The truth is there are bust dollar variety collectors out there.

Just ask a dealer like Harry Laibstein.....he sells them easily by variety. I know, cause I sold him a 'common' type 1798 heraldic eagle bust dollar that was residing in an PCGS that I had just crossed. When I saw it on his website he had had the same coin attributed by PCGS variety service and it was marked up about 60% more than a common variety. He sold it too.

How many varieties are unattributed and sitting in slabs as common dates, I do not know. But the lesson for me is to start using the extra variety service of the TPG's as advertised. The coin I bought will not be reoffered as a common type coin but rather as the B-5, BB-242 that it is.

Btw, for reference sake, ( one B ) denotes Bolender, and his original work and in an updated reference from 1993 ( BB) stands for coins attributed by Bowers and Borcskardt.

TomB

I don't know how many collectors of EDs do so by die marriage, but I have to agree with Nysoto that the number is relatively small when compared to other early Federal coinage and that this is likely because of the cost of acquisition. The initial economic barrier to entry is high for these issues and there are quite a few die marriages, which means that not only does one have to have funds for relatively high end purchases, but that those funds should continue to be available for repeated purchases of high dollar coins. This effectively caps the pool of those who collect these past type or date status. What limits these a bit more is that even in the lower grades these coins can set someone back quite a bit, which is far different than collecting early halves or copper.

In my experience, it is rather tough to obtain an aggressive premium for most better variety early dollars, but that is not to say it cannot be done. Also, in my experience, as the basal price of the coin rises, the relative premium for a better variety drops and this would affect the EDs to a higher degree than early halves or copper.

coindeuce

<< <i>I hope that you enjoy your purchase. I personally have found that die varieties do not get much of a premium for Bust Dollars, even if they are R4 or R5. Not many folks collect this series by die variety, and they all tend to trade as type. >>



That's exacly what the skeptics used to say about Morgan Dollars. Don't blink.

bidask

I got this coin from Heritage yesterday.

It came with the flip from the 1986 Rarcoa auction which leads me to believe this coin has been put away for 23 years, ( Deb Ann Collection being the previous owner).

Earlydollars.org says there 100 specimans of the wide date 1802 extant.

I really think I ripped this coin expecially as it is tied for 2nd finest known.

Fletcher

Where is your pic???